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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 9:02:41 AM   
bstinger


Posts: 16415
Joined: 7/20/2007
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A lot of guys have been paid. Natural to relax a little. What is surprising is that Barr isn't having a bigger year since he's playing for his next contract.

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Post #: 301
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 10:05:56 AM   
kevinemmer


Posts: 4644
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Bozeman, MT
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

I noticed Barr simply floating around covering nobody. WTH is he doing spying on Brady in case this speed demon takes off!

Not having Kearse in the game made little to no sense when the game started. Let alone later after Wanyes got injured.


Barr is a ghost.

Frankly, I'd rather see Kearse covering the slot than Mac, and then Harris on the outside when Waynes/Rhodes go down with Iloka taking over at Safety.

I get PTSD when I see #20 out there, and Sherels should not see the field on the outside alone, ever.

Mac has improved some, but he's still a liability, imo. It seems we're still trying to prove that high (2nd round) pick wasn't a waste with him, ala Treadwell effect.

< Message edited by kevinemmer -- 12/5/2018 10:09:24 AM >
Post #: 302
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 10:18:48 AM   
The Happy Norseman

 

Posts: 758
Joined: 12/2/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

These guys must go:

Priefer. Although it looks like Dallas knew Bailey was done what's up with Carlson. And as mentioned, drafting a K for a team with designs on a SB is not smart.

Barr, he being tied for 229th or whatever in tackles.

Sendejo, for cap and different NFL era reasons.

Remmers. Doesn't appear to be good at anything.

At least one of the TEs to make room for AT LEAST a turn of the century guy. Hell, Green signed Byron Chamberlain.

Treadwell of course.

Gedeon.


Yes! We should look for an upgrade to Rudolph as well. He's a solid player but way overpaid for his talent and productivity.

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Post #: 303
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 10:23:56 AM   
The Happy Norseman

 

Posts: 758
Joined: 12/2/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dana Turner

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Basketball changed with the Warriors.

Football has been changing with the rules, and this year KC officially stamped the change as 'Complete'.

How many of the head coaches of contenders were brought up on the offensive side of the ball. McVay, Reid, Payton, others?




Agree Bill. It sucks but it is what it is. We hired Zimmer about 2 years too early. Meaning, the game has changed so quickly he was simply a bad hire. It's not his fault and I loved the hire at the time. He is stuck in the past and doesn't look like he'll change.

Lets be honest here. As bad as the O was yesterday, and they were terrible at times, we tied it up. What happened after was a wash/rinse/repeat. The big money/draft has been spent on D and they let Brady walk down the field like those moving walkways at the airport. There was no resistance what so ever. Anytime we really need this D they get shredded. Did we beat up on the hapless Lions, yes.

We dominate shitty offenses. We get shredded when we need them most. it's a common problem with this team since Zimmer took over.

To be fair to the D, on that drive we had 3 #1 pick CB's on the sidelines and Marcus Sherels in the game. I agree with your overall point though, they don't come through often enough against top teams. Zimmer did not create enough pressure on Brady. Brady did through the INT one of the few times the Blitz pressured him.

Part of our problem seems to be we can only function with extremely high pick CBs. Other teams develop CBs; we spend a high pick, break them down, make them relearn the position, and then either sign them to huge contracts or let them go because they don't get it.


We all have to admit, there are zero teams out there that have five starting DB's on the roster. No, what you saw there was a poor job of adjusting the defense to the situation. The tough guy mentality of "everyone gets paid, go out and do your job" has stupid in this situation. If we weren't going to blitz or pressure Brady, we needed to make sure there were enough DB types on the field. You could have replaced Barr in the first quarter and nobody would have known he wasn't in the game. We need to come up with a better scheme to defend the Patriots during the week, like the Titans did.

Sorry, but this is getting a little ridiculous and I don't mean the posting. I'm talking about the way our team is coached. Look at the roster, tell me why we continue to show up to games acting like we had the week off, like we will figure it out as we go along. I know that doesn't happen, I know the coaches coach during the week, this is exactly what I am talking about, what the hell are they coaching, why are we being out-coached nearly every week. I don't see the Seattle game as a hope for something great, I see it as another opportunity for a better coaching staff to out-coach us, it's frustrating.

I apologize for ranting, those of you that have known me over the past twenty odd years I've been posting on these threads, know that I am usually a lot more reserved in my comments. But ever since we hired Zimmer I have seen the same thing happening to this team, a team with a ton of talent on the roster just under-achieves. Put it this way, the Patriots have been on top of the NFL pile for a long time, they have never had a team with as much talent as the Vikings do, only difference would be a HOF QB, but the rest of the teams personnel, not even close. The Vikings put together a championship roster and look like a team waiting for something to happen. It's the coaching philosophy, Billicek (SP) coaches his guys differently, the lunch pale guys he gets all come in and just do their job. Our guys look lethargic out there. Sure a couple guys always shine, but the rest just talk good in interviews, hell, I don't even think they believe the crap they are shoveling.

What a waist of a good roster. I heard a guy ranting about the Vikings the other day, the said they were frauds,.....strong word, but not far off. 54 years following only one team in the NFL, you'd thing I'd be used to the pain by now {:~).


Not defending Zim, but having the GOAT at QB is no small thing. For years the Pats have beaten teams with much more talented rosters because of Brady. Belichick is a great coach, but without Brady the Pats are a middle of the pack team at best with some of the rosters they've had.

The frustrating part of Zim's coaching against the Pats is the Titans showed him exactly how to stop Brady. We have a much more talented roster than they do and could easily have replicated their efforts. I suspect Zim's ego and confidence in his "system' prevented him from following another coaches lead. Perhaps if he relinquished the DC duties entirely, he'd be able to see things more clearly.

< Message edited by The Happy Norseman -- 12/5/2018 10:28:22 AM >


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Post #: 304
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 10:41:57 AM   
The Happy Norseman

 

Posts: 758
Joined: 12/2/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

So Ive dug in and read and watched far more on Defilippo than I ever wanted... Still get why he was such a intriguing hire...

Problem is that in putting together the ingredients there was an oversight in if they would be compatible... Its obvious that in some ways Zimm has a short leash on Flip and might be impacting the true schemes and play we expected. As well there is also good chance that Kirk Cousins being a true pocket passer is not the style of QB that best fits all of what has made Flip and his schemes so intriguing in the first place. He does much better with more mobil QBs that scramble and can make game changing plays while rolling out or under duress. That is not Kirks strong point. The OL we have also would have benefitted from such a QB...

So... We are married to Kirk for better or worse another 2 more years... Zimm also got an extension last year... Maybe Flip gets a HC job for like Green Bay and leaves, which would be great because he is not meshing with our players strengths and scheming that matches his own philosophies. Likely he would be a great fit for Aaron and that skill set unfortunately...

That said... The two biggest glaring needs for next year will be a new OC that better fits our QB style and of course MORE O line overhaul and influx of talent...

Any suggestions here on who would be a better OC candidate to work with Kirk and get the most out of his strengths behind a potentially better O Line?


I think that literally all of our problems can be attributed to the offensive line. Cousins thrives using play-action and at the start of the season everyone expected the Vikings to establish the run so they could go heavy on play-action, something Philly used a lot last season. Made sense and jibed with Zimmer's philosophy. Unfortunately, because of Spielmen's neglect, the team is saddled with a terrible oline who can't run block (or pass block). So instead of developing a cohesive scheme that puts our QB in a position to excel, the offense has no identity. Bad offense means more time leaving the defense out on the field since we are unable to control the clock. I think it also rubs off on the defense mentally. We have a stacked roster with no real identity.

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Post #: 305
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 10:45:22 AM   
Ragnarök


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This team has the talent to compete, yet we still have not beat a team with a winning record this year... no moral victories for we were in it until... This team has layed down at crucial times, shows no fire, no sense of urgency and truly acts disinterested or complacent for large at critical times...

COACHING... Zimmer and his Parcells wanna be act is not working... The team is not well prepared, they are not in position in games, they are terrible at making substitutions or in game adjustments... It shows so badly on tape... Never mind terrible clock management and head scratcher decisions when we go into stretches of the usual Zimmer patented Turtle Mode...

Some one else mentioned it and I really believe Zimmer is of old school mindset that if he keeps the score close and plays everything safe in a turtle mode on offense just using clock and settling for 3, running the ball and keeping the clock moving and eating time... running out the clock at end of half rather than going for points.. He plays old school, going for win by holding them on D and doing just enough on offense to keep the score close.

But we are not even scoring enough to pull ahead lately, he is icing our own team with his turtle offense. AND worse teams are now using this formula against us... Bill B knows Parcells ideology well and he played us in last game... We were far out coached and we made it very easy for the Pats to take that game over when they got momentum and scored two touchdowns in a row it was game over...

The young coaches in the league no longer coach and set up their players to fail with this old school mentality... Its foot and the gas, seize momentum and capitalize on every offensive snap with 7 points in mind... NOT Zimm... we play conservative not to make a mistake and let our D control the game... Its not working any more, He is killing us with the mindset he brings as a HC...

We have the weapons on offense and a young OC that is being hamstrung by and antiquated fossil of a HC who is still calling his cronie friend Parcells and being mentored weekly... Its time... really ITS TIME...

WE NEED NEW COACHING MENTALITY and the players need a kick in the ass from bright young minds... I would love to see what DeFillippo could do with some other bright new age minds around him like has had in past when he excelled at his job... not this crap with his HC keeping a short leash on his creativity and demanding say in how he runs the game plan...

Its not working and the players know it....
Post #: 306
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 11:13:45 AM   
Ragnarök


Posts: 2274
Status: offline
Notice I am not standing on Kirk Cousins nuts in post above... I own several businesses and part on my main goal in my role to see them thrive is to do position by position analysis and find the weak links in what is hampering overall production.

Zimmer as head coach is essentially my foreman on the job, and he is failing. He is not setting up my workers in the best atmosphere to succeed in daily roles they well know. They are not being prepared for the tasks at hand and if something changes in scheme of all he is not making correct adjustments to keep continuity and continue to get maximum production from well skilled laborers that know how to do their jobs when in position. My workers are milling around, out of place, not getting correct assignments, and its allowing for complacency to set in. Once that happens and its evident that from the top down no one is in position to best execute their roles people give up, they get frustrated and inevitably reason that it isnt their fault so they just start coasting too... Even the lunch pail guys get lazy (Oline) and look totally incompetent, drunk on job even! No one is setting correct environmental example and the whole product and production suffers....

We are a frustrated team, full of skilled workers who just arent being put in best position to excel at their trade... IT SHOWS!

Who is to blame?? ME at this point, the owner.... I must replace my foreman with a competent person who can get the job done and set the tone to succeed.

yes?

< Message edited by Ragnarök -- 12/5/2018 11:35:26 AM >
Post #: 307
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 11:27:07 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 27461
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

They lost their edge or urgency they had last year IMO.

Perhaps this year is a hangover.

What I know is they haven’t beat a team yet with a winning record. Philly is going to make a run at that last playoff spot if the Vikings don’t start getting their act together.



And 3 wins vs. SF, Jets, Arizona who are all bottom feeders.
Post #: 308
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 11:29:51 AM   
Bill Johanesen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

A lot of guys have been paid. Natural to relax a little. What is surprising is that Barr isn't having a bigger year since he's playing for his next contract.



It could be too that other players know the bank (aka, cap space) is near depleted so their chance for a huge contract in Minnesota is next to nil.

We will find cap space this offseason but a lot can/will change and I'll bet a chunk of it is used on a new player.
Post #: 309
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 11:31:51 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 27461
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinemmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

I noticed Barr simply floating around covering nobody. WTH is he doing spying on Brady in case this speed demon takes off!

Not having Kearse in the game made little to no sense when the game started. Let alone later after Wanyes got injured.


Barr is a ghost.

Frankly, I'd rather see Kearse covering the slot than Mac, and then Harris on the outside when Waynes/Rhodes go down with Iloka taking over at Safety.

I get PTSD when I see #20 out there, and Sherels should not see the field on the outside alone, ever.

Mac has improved some, but he's still a liability, imo. It seems we're still trying to prove that high (2nd round) pick wasn't a waste with him, ala Treadwell effect.



Did you see that play where Mac was lined up against CPat in the slot? CPat faked in to block, Mac totally bought it, CPat shoots out to the flat, catches the ball and was off running down the sideline.
Post #: 310
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 11:39:05 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 27461
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

So Ive dug in and read and watched far more on Defilippo than I ever wanted... Still get why he was such a intriguing hire...

Problem is that in putting together the ingredients there was an oversight in if they would be compatible... Its obvious that in some ways Zimm has a short leash on Flip and might be impacting the true schemes and play we expected. As well there is also good chance that Kirk Cousins being a true pocket passer is not the style of QB that best fits all of what has made Flip and his schemes so intriguing in the first place. He does much better with more mobil QBs that scramble and can make game changing plays while rolling out or under duress. That is not Kirks strong point. The OL we have also would have benefitted from such a QB...

So... We are married to Kirk for better or worse another 2 more years... Zimm also got an extension last year... Maybe Flip gets a HC job for like Green Bay and leaves, which would be great because he is not meshing with our players strengths and scheming that matches his own philosophies. Likely he would be a great fit for Aaron and that skill set unfortunately...

That said... The two biggest glaring needs for next year will be a new OC that better fits our QB style and of course MORE O line overhaul and influx of talent...

Any suggestions here on who would be a better OC candidate to work with Kirk and get the most out of his strengths behind a potentially better O Line?


I think that literally all of our problems can be attributed to the offensive line. Cousins thrives using play-action and at the start of the season everyone expected the Vikings to establish the run so they could go heavy on play-action, something Philly used a lot last season. Made sense and jibed with Zimmer's philosophy. Unfortunately, because of Spielmen's neglect, the team is saddled with a terrible oline who can't run block (or pass block). So instead of developing a cohesive scheme that puts our QB in a position to excel, the offense has no identity. Bad offense means more time leaving the defense out on the field since we are unable to control the clock. I think it also rubs off on the defense mentally. We have a stacked roster with no real identity.



We don't have a 'stacked' roster mainly due to the lack of a even average OL. Not to mention, no modern day TE, weak LB corps, etc.

I agree though on the weak O getting to the D mentally. Especially for the vets like Smith and Griffen. More of the same year after year.
Post #: 311
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 12:18:03 PM   
ronhextall


Posts: 6271
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman


Not defending Zim, but having the GOAT at QB is no small thing. For years the Pats have beaten teams with much more talented rosters because of Brady. Belichick is a great coach, but without Brady the Pats are a middle of the pack team at best with some of the rosters they've had.

The frustrating part of Zim's coaching against the Pats is the Titans showed him exactly how to stop Brady. We have a much more talented roster than they do and could easily have replicated their efforts. I suspect Zim's ego and confidence in his "system' prevented him from following another coaches lead. Perhaps if he relinquished the DC duties entirely, he'd be able to see things more clearly.



Belichick won 11 games with Matt Cassel.

Ben Leber said what the Pats did on defense Sunday against the Vikings they had never seen before and it confused them.

I think Belichick and Brady quit at the same time but I would love to see what he could do without Brady for a couple of seasons.

Zimm is a guy that wants no changes and everything simple. Belichick is the exact opposite, he embraces chaos as a weapon.

I love Thielen but I found it interesting that in a season that has been extremely disappointing the Vikings are choreographing TD celebrations and Belichick is bending the rules and telling people to STFU and WINNING.

< Message edited by ronhextall -- 12/5/2018 12:23:28 PM >
Post #: 312
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 12:29:25 PM   
Ragnarök


Posts: 2274
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

So Ive dug in and read and watched far more on Defilippo than I ever wanted... Still get why he was such a intriguing hire...

Problem is that in putting together the ingredients there was an oversight in if they would be compatible... Its obvious that in some ways Zimm has a short leash on Flip and might be impacting the true schemes and play we expected. As well there is also good chance that Kirk Cousins being a true pocket passer is not the style of QB that best fits all of what has made Flip and his schemes so intriguing in the first place. He does much better with more mobil QBs that scramble and can make game changing plays while rolling out or under duress. That is not Kirks strong point. The OL we have also would have benefitted from such a QB...

So... We are married to Kirk for better or worse another 2 more years... Zimm also got an extension last year... Maybe Flip gets a HC job for like Green Bay and leaves, which would be great because he is not meshing with our players strengths and scheming that matches his own philosophies. Likely he would be a great fit for Aaron and that skill set unfortunately...

That said... The two biggest glaring needs for next year will be a new OC that better fits our QB style and of course MORE O line overhaul and influx of talent...

Any suggestions here on who would be a better OC candidate to work with Kirk and get the most out of his strengths behind a potentially better O Line?


I think that literally all of our problems can be attributed to the offensive line. Cousins thrives using play-action and at the start of the season everyone expected the Vikings to establish the run so they could go heavy on play-action, something Philly used a lot last season. Made sense and jibed with Zimmer's philosophy. Unfortunately, because of Spielmen's neglect, the team is saddled with a terrible oline who can't run block (or pass block). So instead of developing a cohesive scheme that puts our QB in a position to excel, the offense has no identity. Bad offense means more time leaving the defense out on the field since we are unable to control the clock. I think it also rubs off on the defense mentally. We have a stacked roster with no real identity.



We don't have a 'stacked' roster mainly due to the lack of a even average OL. Not to mention, no modern day TE, weak LB corps, etc.

I agree though on the weak O getting to the D mentally. Especially for the vets like Smith and Griffen. More of the same year after year.

No team is stacked at every position... Not fully giving the OL a pass BUT good teams make up for weaker areas with good game planning, coaching to scheme and set up optimal situations to cover some of the lesser skill sets. NE and Belichick has been a master at this for years! Cant keep crying about what we dont have... Coaches are not using our strengths to their full potential and are far from playing our opponents in a chess match...

Zimms philosophy and style are keep it simple and do things that have worked in past...Daring teams to beat us doing what we always do, and know what? They are beating us... Its not working... We are the tortoise with our Turtle Schemes and teams are bringing their imaginative well schemed game plans that beat us to the finish line with their Hare speed, imagination and execution... We get the same reply week after week... We will look at the tape and make adjustments, TRUTH? do you see any adjustments? Oh we announce we are going to run the ball more, thats about as brilliant as the Randy Ratio...

< Message edited by Ragnarök -- 12/5/2018 1:04:08 PM >
Post #: 313
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 12:58:50 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 27461
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

So Ive dug in and read and watched far more on Defilippo than I ever wanted... Still get why he was such a intriguing hire...

Problem is that in putting together the ingredients there was an oversight in if they would be compatible... Its obvious that in some ways Zimm has a short leash on Flip and might be impacting the true schemes and play we expected. As well there is also good chance that Kirk Cousins being a true pocket passer is not the style of QB that best fits all of what has made Flip and his schemes so intriguing in the first place. He does much better with more mobil QBs that scramble and can make game changing plays while rolling out or under duress. That is not Kirks strong point. The OL we have also would have benefitted from such a QB...

So... We are married to Kirk for better or worse another 2 more years... Zimm also got an extension last year... Maybe Flip gets a HC job for like Green Bay and leaves, which would be great because he is not meshing with our players strengths and scheming that matches his own philosophies. Likely he would be a great fit for Aaron and that skill set unfortunately...

That said... The two biggest glaring needs for next year will be a new OC that better fits our QB style and of course MORE O line overhaul and influx of talent...

Any suggestions here on who would be a better OC candidate to work with Kirk and get the most out of his strengths behind a potentially better O Line?


I think that literally all of our problems can be attributed to the offensive line. Cousins thrives using play-action and at the start of the season everyone expected the Vikings to establish the run so they could go heavy on play-action, something Philly used a lot last season. Made sense and jibed with Zimmer's philosophy. Unfortunately, because of Spielmen's neglect, the team is saddled with a terrible oline who can't run block (or pass block). So instead of developing a cohesive scheme that puts our QB in a position to excel, the offense has no identity. Bad offense means more time leaving the defense out on the field since we are unable to control the clock. I think it also rubs off on the defense mentally. We have a stacked roster with no real identity.



We don't have a 'stacked' roster mainly due to the lack of a even average OL. Not to mention, no modern day TE, weak LB corps, etc.

I agree though on the weak O getting to the D mentally. Especially for the vets like Smith and Griffen. More of the same year after year.

No team is stacked at every position... Not fully giving the OL a pass BUT good teams make up for weaker areas with good game planning, coaching to scheme and set up optimal situations to cover some of the lesser skill sets. NE and Belichick has been a master at this for years! Cant keep crying about what we dont have... Coaches are not using our strengths to their full potential and are far from playing our opponents in a chess match...



If you think a weak OL can be 'made up for' I can't help you.

Of course being able to make up for a crap OL fits your anti-Cousins, Zimmer narrative.

You need to do some root cause analysis. Or just ask "why" over and over. The answer to the third why will be "OL", the answer to the fourth why will be "not adequately addressing the OL". If you go far enough, somehow an answer will net the words "Tom Compton".
Post #: 314
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 1:01:33 PM   
bohumm

 

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

So Ive dug in and read and watched far more on Defilippo than I ever wanted... Still get why he was such a intriguing hire...

Problem is that in putting together the ingredients there was an oversight in if they would be compatible... Its obvious that in some ways Zimm has a short leash on Flip and might be impacting the true schemes and play we expected. As well there is also good chance that Kirk Cousins being a true pocket passer is not the style of QB that best fits all of what has made Flip and his schemes so intriguing in the first place. He does much better with more mobil QBs that scramble and can make game changing plays while rolling out or under duress. That is not Kirks strong point. The OL we have also would have benefitted from such a QB...

So... We are married to Kirk for better or worse another 2 more years... Zimm also got an extension last year... Maybe Flip gets a HC job for like Green Bay and leaves, which would be great because he is not meshing with our players strengths and scheming that matches his own philosophies. Likely he would be a great fit for Aaron and that skill set unfortunately...

That said... The two biggest glaring needs for next year will be a new OC that better fits our QB style and of course MORE O line overhaul and influx of talent...

Any suggestions here on who would be a better OC candidate to work with Kirk and get the most out of his strengths behind a potentially better O Line?


I think that literally all of our problems can be attributed to the offensive line. Cousins thrives using play-action and at the start of the season everyone expected the Vikings to establish the run so they could go heavy on play-action, something Philly used a lot last season. Made sense and jibed with Zimmer's philosophy. Unfortunately, because of Spielmen's neglect, the team is saddled with a terrible oline who can't run block (or pass block). So instead of developing a cohesive scheme that puts our QB in a position to excel, the offense has no identity. Bad offense means more time leaving the defense out on the field since we are unable to control the clock. I think it also rubs off on the defense mentally. We have a stacked roster with no real identity.



We don't have a 'stacked' roster mainly due to the lack of a even average OL. Not to mention, no modern day TE, weak LB corps, etc.

I agree though on the weak O getting to the D mentally. Especially for the vets like Smith and Griffen. More of the same year after year.

No team is stacked at every position... Not fully giving the OL a pass BUT good teams make up for weaker areas with good game planning, coaching to scheme and set up optimal situations to cover some of the lesser skill sets. NE and Belichick has been a master at this for years! Cant keep crying about what we dont have... Coaches are not using our strengths to their full potential and are far from playing our opponents in a chess match...

This is a good point, although the OL is and has been horrendous. To me, your point is more germane on the defensive side. We may be weak at LB, where Kendricks has been a surprising disappointment and Gedeon is on the field too often, but that is the least important position group on defense in today's NFL. Zim has not kept offenses frazzed the way he could with the right mix of blitzes and coverage combos.
Post #: 315
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 1:04:58 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 27461
Status: offline
A bad OL stalls out both the running game and the passing game.

And before some bogus PFF stats get tossed around wily-nily, people are issued Mark 1 Eyeballs (set of 2) that provide the answer. They can be upgraded to premium with a Slo-Mo/Repeat Video Package.

Both are damn near standard issue for most football fans.

A team does not "make up for" a pseudo-player like Remmers literally pushing the DT into the QB for a sack. This actually happened on national television in the year 2018. He made Kalil look like Ron Yary.
Post #: 316
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 1:07:55 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 27461
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

So Ive dug in and read and watched far more on Defilippo than I ever wanted... Still get why he was such a intriguing hire...

Problem is that in putting together the ingredients there was an oversight in if they would be compatible... Its obvious that in some ways Zimm has a short leash on Flip and might be impacting the true schemes and play we expected. As well there is also good chance that Kirk Cousins being a true pocket passer is not the style of QB that best fits all of what has made Flip and his schemes so intriguing in the first place. He does much better with more mobil QBs that scramble and can make game changing plays while rolling out or under duress. That is not Kirks strong point. The OL we have also would have benefitted from such a QB...

So... We are married to Kirk for better or worse another 2 more years... Zimm also got an extension last year... Maybe Flip gets a HC job for like Green Bay and leaves, which would be great because he is not meshing with our players strengths and scheming that matches his own philosophies. Likely he would be a great fit for Aaron and that skill set unfortunately...

That said... The two biggest glaring needs for next year will be a new OC that better fits our QB style and of course MORE O line overhaul and influx of talent...

Any suggestions here on who would be a better OC candidate to work with Kirk and get the most out of his strengths behind a potentially better O Line?


I think that literally all of our problems can be attributed to the offensive line. Cousins thrives using play-action and at the start of the season everyone expected the Vikings to establish the run so they could go heavy on play-action, something Philly used a lot last season. Made sense and jibed with Zimmer's philosophy. Unfortunately, because of Spielmen's neglect, the team is saddled with a terrible oline who can't run block (or pass block). So instead of developing a cohesive scheme that puts our QB in a position to excel, the offense has no identity. Bad offense means more time leaving the defense out on the field since we are unable to control the clock. I think it also rubs off on the defense mentally. We have a stacked roster with no real identity.



We don't have a 'stacked' roster mainly due to the lack of a even average OL. Not to mention, no modern day TE, weak LB corps, etc.

I agree though on the weak O getting to the D mentally. Especially for the vets like Smith and Griffen. More of the same year after year.

No team is stacked at every position... Not fully giving the OL a pass BUT good teams make up for weaker areas with good game planning, coaching to scheme and set up optimal situations to cover some of the lesser skill sets. NE and Belichick has been a master at this for years! Cant keep crying about what we dont have... Coaches are not using our strengths to their full potential and are far from playing our opponents in a chess match...

This is a good point, although the OL is and has been horrendous. To me, your point is more germane on the defensive side. We may be weak at LB, where Kendricks has been a surprising disappointment and Gedeon is on the field too often, but that is the least important position group on defense in today's NFL. Zim has not kept offenses frazzed the way he could with the right mix of blitzes and coverage combos.



But, but what about the Double-A gap blitz
Post #: 317
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 1:14:32 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 27461
Status: offline
Cook leads the league in making the first defender miss 27.7% of the time.

Imagine if half of those jukes were not on the offensive side of the LOS.



Close your eyes. Imagine the OL pushes the DL two yards forward (if you can't conjure that, go watch how it is done to OUR DL). RBs like Cook hit the LOS untouched (WOW!) and begin to do their work... finding a seam, hitting a hole, exploding to the second level, and then making THAT first defender miss.

It's mind-boggling. But it does happen in the NFL.
Post #: 318
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 1:17:22 PM   
Ragnarök


Posts: 2274
Status: offline
I said I would make no concessions for the OL, our GM has failed us miserably with his addressing of the situation... I do have eyes, and I do fully agree... So point taken, if you want to feel our entire offensive woes are on the OL then its a valid point I cannot deny...

The D though?

Zimm has gotten lazy on D... unimaginative in his game plans and schemes for opposing OCs, his strengths and tricks are stale and he refuses to change it up or show new looks, much less make critical in game adjustments... He continues to ram a square peg into a round hole while the opposition just runs around the hole entirely!

LAZY, that trickles down in all phases including the punter who cant even get his ass on the field to hold for a kicker that all of a sudden half ass kicks...

Our HC persona is the team persona.... The new game and style is leaving Zimmers stodgy mantra behind and its not pretty to watch...

< Message edited by Ragnarök -- 12/5/2018 1:22:38 PM >
Post #: 319
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 1:21:18 PM   
Ray

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2014
Status: offline
Been watching this team for 48 years, they do not play to win, they play not to loose, even in 98 they took a knee with the best offense the NFL had seen up to that point. I think Zimmer is a good coach but he is from the Bud Grant, Chuck Knox, Chuck Noll era.
Post #: 320
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 1:37:52 PM   
Ragnarök


Posts: 2274
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ray

Been watching this team for 48 years, they do not play to win, they play not to loose, even in 98 they took a knee with the best offense the NFL had seen up to that point. I think Zimmer is a good coach but he is from the Bud Grant, Chuck Knox, Chuck Noll era.



EXACTLY... The NFL has evolved with what people want to see, the rules have changed to wide open play favoring the video game pace and stylings of a offense in todays NFL...

Playing not to lose is a losing proposition, setting yourself up to fail... If thats the mantra Zimm brings then its just not going to work in todays NFL...

Liken it to todays modern warfare, Shock and awe wins in the video game play type offensives... Defensive minded strategies get you hiding in a cave...

A CAVE IS A GRAVE...

We need to get out of the stone age mindset, get in some fresh young minds and open things up... yes upgrade our OL and use our weapons... we are more than just cavemen... Step into todays NFL...

Do believe this is what we were trying to do with hire of Flipp, but it would seem more than just the OL is hampering all.

< Message edited by Ragnarök -- 12/5/2018 1:39:47 PM >
Post #: 321
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 2:12:18 PM   
bstinger


Posts: 16415
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

So Ive dug in and read and watched far more on Defilippo than I ever wanted... Still get why he was such a intriguing hire...

Problem is that in putting together the ingredients there was an oversight in if they would be compatible... Its obvious that in some ways Zimm has a short leash on Flip and might be impacting the true schemes and play we expected. As well there is also good chance that Kirk Cousins being a true pocket passer is not the style of QB that best fits all of what has made Flip and his schemes so intriguing in the first place. He does much better with more mobil QBs that scramble and can make game changing plays while rolling out or under duress. That is not Kirks strong point. The OL we have also would have benefitted from such a QB...

So... We are married to Kirk for better or worse another 2 more years... Zimm also got an extension last year... Maybe Flip gets a HC job for like Green Bay and leaves, which would be great because he is not meshing with our players strengths and scheming that matches his own philosophies. Likely he would be a great fit for Aaron and that skill set unfortunately...

That said... The two biggest glaring needs for next year will be a new OC that better fits our QB style and of course MORE O line overhaul and influx of talent...

Any suggestions here on who would be a better OC candidate to work with Kirk and get the most out of his strengths behind a potentially better O Line?


I think that literally all of our problems can be attributed to the offensive line. Cousins thrives using play-action and at the start of the season everyone expected the Vikings to establish the run so they could go heavy on play-action, something Philly used a lot last season. Made sense and jibed with Zimmer's philosophy. Unfortunately, because of Spielmen's neglect, the team is saddled with a terrible oline who can't run block (or pass block). So instead of developing a cohesive scheme that puts our QB in a position to excel, the offense has no identity. Bad offense means more time leaving the defense out on the field since we are unable to control the clock. I think it also rubs off on the defense mentally. We have a stacked roster with no real identity.



We don't have a 'stacked' roster mainly due to the lack of a even average OL. Not to mention, no modern day TE, weak LB corps, etc.

I agree though on the weak O getting to the D mentally. Especially for the vets like Smith and Griffen. More of the same year after year.

No team is stacked at every position... Not fully giving the OL a pass BUT good teams make up for weaker areas with good game planning, coaching to scheme and set up optimal situations to cover some of the lesser skill sets. NE and Belichick has been a master at this for years! Cant keep crying about what we dont have... Coaches are not using our strengths to their full potential and are far from playing our opponents in a chess match...

This is a good point, although the OL is and has been horrendous. To me, your point is more germane on the defensive side. We may be weak at LB, where Kendricks has been a surprising disappointment and Gedeon is on the field too often, but that is the least important position group on defense in today's NFL. Zim has not kept offenses frazzed the way he could with the right mix of blitzes and coverage combos.



But, but what about the Double-A gap blitz

Which they back out of more often than not.

_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan
Post #: 322
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 2:30:58 PM   
Pager


Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

They lost their edge or urgency they had last year IMO.

Perhaps this year is a hangover.

What I know is they haven’t beat a team yet with a winning record. Philly is going to make a run at that last playoff spot if the Vikings don’t start getting their act together.



And 3 wins vs. SF, Jets, Arizona who are all bottom feeders.


Yeah I'm not worried about the Eagles. Play Dallas next then the Chiefs. They let Washington hand around for 3 quarters (at home) with butt fumble as their QB.

Washington is done.
Carolina has lost 100 straight and are firing coaches.
That takes us to the 10th seed and Tampa bay at 5-7.

I'm calling 8-7-1 makes the playoffs in the NFC. I think we'll have at least 9 wins. But I've been wrong before.

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.
Post #: 323
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 3:37:30 PM   
ronhextall


Posts: 6271
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

They lost their edge or urgency they had last year IMO.

Perhaps this year is a hangover.

What I know is they haven’t beat a team yet with a winning record. Philly is going to make a run at that last playoff spot if the Vikings don’t start getting their act together.



And 3 wins vs. SF, Jets, Arizona who are all bottom feeders.


Yeah I'm not worried about the Eagles. Play Dallas next then the Chiefs. They let Washington hand around for 3 quarters (at home) with butt fumble as their QB.

Washington is done.
Carolina has lost 100 straight and are firing coaches.
That takes us to the 10th seed and Tampa bay at 5-7.

I'm calling 8-7-1 makes the playoffs in the NFC. I think we'll have at least 9 wins. But I've been wrong before.

Didn't bother to look at the Eagles remaining games. I agree, they are done.

Nice thing is @Dallas and @Chicago would both be winnable games for the Vikings IMO. I give them zero chance against the Rams or Saints.
Post #: 324
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2018 3:39:08 PM   
Ragnarök


Posts: 2274
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

They lost their edge or urgency they had last year IMO.

Perhaps this year is a hangover.

What I know is they haven’t beat a team yet with a winning record. Philly is going to make a run at that last playoff spot if the Vikings don’t start getting their act together.



And 3 wins vs. SF, Jets, Arizona who are all bottom feeders.


Yeah I'm not worried about the Eagles. Play Dallas next then the Chiefs. They let Washington hand around for 3 quarters (at home) with butt fumble as their QB.

Washington is done.
Carolina has lost 100 straight and are firing coaches.
That takes us to the 10th seed and Tampa bay at 5-7.

I'm calling 8-7-1 makes the playoffs in the NFC. I think we'll have at least 9 wins. But I've been wrong before.

Hmmm... Well maybe with Zimms mindset he has them all right where he wants them...
We back into the playoffs showing no more than vanilla preseason, especially against teams with winning records... give them nothing on tape for when we play them when it counts in playoffs, THEN we unleash the real shit!

Must be why we played the Pats the way we did... If we see them in Super Bowl we have out mastered Billy B and Zimm will call out the dogs when it counts !!!
Post #: 325
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