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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 8:04:20 PM

Pager

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Joined: 7/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zoilo

Pager,
I see you and I joined this form on the same day and we have nearly the same # of posts.
Just thought I'd say hi.

Hey Z! Wish I had more time to post in the Twins forum, always had fun with that group, you included.

I forget how I came across this site. I had been posting a bit on the Trib and someone over there gave me this tip.

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Post #: 151

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 8:08:11 PM

Zoilo

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Joined: 7/19/2007
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Pager,
Most of the games went the Vikings way today. Just disappointing that their own game didn't.
I still think the Vikings can get hot, and when they do, they can match up well with any team.

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Z

Post #: 152

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 8:13:13 PM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zoilo

Pager,
Most of the games went the Vikings way today. Just disappointing that their own game didn't.
I still think the Vikings can get hot, and when they do, they can match up well with any team.

Agreed. Stars aligned for us to step up and announce our return as a team to be reckoned with. And we didn't.

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Post #: 153

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 8:19:46 PM

Pager

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Joined: 7/19/2007
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https://www.vikings.com/video/zimmer-on-the-slow-start-running-game-and-offense-s-play-team-s-status-with-four

Zimmer wants us to run the ball more. With this oline? Adjust you fossil!!!

Lol. Wrong link the first time.

< Message edited by Pager -- 12/2/2018 8:27:51 PM >

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Post #: 154

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 8:27:06 PM

Richard Neussendorfer

Posts: 19051
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Alamogordo, NM
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

http://talkvikes.gorge.net/tm.aspx?m=1482605&mpage=7&key=

Zimmer wants us to run the ball more. With this oline? Adjust you fossil!!!

Sheesh this guy cant get out of town fast enough for me!

Post #: 155

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 8:32:32 PM

Ragnarök

Posts: 2274
Status: offline

MYTH?

Stats be damned?

OL pass-blocking efficiency raking NFL

2017 Minnesota Vikings
Ranking 13th

2018 Minnesota Vikings
Ranking 6th

We are far worse in Run Blocking efficiency in 2018 but in Pass Protection the stats suggest different than many of you are suggesting...

Now in eye test I agree, BOTH O lines suck either year!

We did far more in the passing game with LESS last year... Coaching? Play Calling? Heart? WTF

< Message edited by Ragnarök -- 12/2/2018 8:36:39 PM >

Post #: 156

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 8:33:00 PM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

https://www.vikings.com/video/zimmer-on-the-slow-start-running-game-and-offense-s-play-team-s-status-with-four

Zimmer wants us to run the ball more. With this oline? Adjust you fossil!!!

Lol. Wrong link the first time.

I did like how he talked about the team at the end. He likes the team. This game won't define them. Season is still in front of them.

Agreed with all.

The losses that stuck in craw were Buf and Bears. Losing to Ram, NO, NE with two of those on the road, not the end of the world. Seems like a few plays here or there and a lot of those games could have been different.

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Post #: 157

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 8:35:16 PM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

MYTH?

Stats be damned?

OL pass-blocking efficiency raking NFL

2017 Minnesota Vikings
Ranking 13

2018 Minnesota Vikings
Ranking 6th

We are far worse in Run Blocking efficiency in 2018 but in Pass Blocking the stats suggest different than many of you are suggesting...

Now in eye test I agree, BOTH O lines suck either year!

We did far more in the passing game with LESS last year... Coaching? Play Calling? Heart? WTF

So minimize the stat that blows your statement out of the water? And ignore what that imbalance does to the overall offense (not being able to run, create longer third downs, I would guess more holding calls, inability to pick up short down and distance, etc). You make an offense one-dimensional, game over.

Um ok.

< Message edited by Pager -- 12/2/2018 8:42:16 PM >

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Post #: 158

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 8:43:32 PM

Ragnarök

Posts: 2274
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

MYTH?

Stats be damned?

OL pass-blocking efficiency raking NFL

2017 Minnesota Vikings
Ranking 13

2018 Minnesota Vikings
Ranking 6th

We are far worse in Run Blocking efficiency in 2018 but in Pass Blocking the stats suggest different than many of you are suggesting...

Now in eye test I agree, BOTH O lines suck either year!

We did far more in the passing game with LESS last year... Coaching? Play Calling? Heart? WTF

So minimize the stat that blows your statement out of the water? And ignore what that imbalance does to the overall offense (not being able to run, create longer third downs, I would guess more holding calls, pick up short down and difference, etc).

Um ok.

No problem, glad I can always spin it to my side of EVIL???

WTF... I posted tons of numbers on stats a couple weeks ago outlining how overall grade of 2017 and 2018 to this point showed that both lines sucked but in pure stats splits the 2017 line graded out poorer than 2018 to this point...

There is FAR more wrong with this team than the O line though, if people cant see that then no stats spin any direction will open eyes....

< Message edited by Ragnarök -- 12/2/2018 8:45:35 PM >

Post #: 159

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 8:54:55 PM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

MYTH?

Stats be damned?

OL pass-blocking efficiency raking NFL

2017 Minnesota Vikings
Ranking 13

2018 Minnesota Vikings
Ranking 6th

We are far worse in Run Blocking efficiency in 2018 but in Pass Blocking the stats suggest different than many of you are suggesting...

Now in eye test I agree, BOTH O lines suck either year!

We did far more in the passing game with LESS last year... Coaching? Play Calling? Heart? WTF

So minimize the stat that blows your statement out of the water? And ignore what that imbalance does to the overall offense (not being able to run, create longer third downs, I would guess more holding calls, pick up short down and difference, etc).

Um ok.

No problem, glad I can always spin it to my side of EVIL???

WTF... I posted tons of numbers on stats a couple weeks ago outlining how overall grade of 2017 and 2018 to this point showed that both lines sucked but in pure stats splits the 2017 line graded out poorer than 2018 to this point...

There is FAR more wrong with this team than the O line though, if people cant see that then no stats spin any direction will open eyes....

Stats like pass-blocking efficiency only show a part of the picture. I just gave you some of the areas in the why. What is our second and yards to go compared to last year. Third down? We are 27th in the league on short down and distance. How did we do last year? Ignore the impact if you want.

Beyond passblocking efficiency - could you repost the other numbers that support your claim? Cuz I'm not seeing it.

Are there other areas that are hurting this team? Absolutely. We have had some horrendous TOs. Cousins included. But Thielan's fumble against NO and Cook's against the Bears were game killers. Defense has given up a ton of big plays compared to last year.

For me the oline is problem 1, 2, and 3. Zim/Flip play calling number 4. Turnovers/Cousins 5.

But carry on.

< Message edited by Pager -- 12/2/2018 9:05:18 PM >

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Post #: 160

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 9:48:09 PM

Ragnarök

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We are in total agreement then, I wasnt making any huge statements, I totally agree that BOTH years we had very offensive O lines, we just hid it better last year with possibly better play calling and a more scrambling ad lib QB playing outta his mind (likely not sustainable) in schemes that didnt depend solely on time for QB to throw out of a clean pocket.

The D has not been as good as last year, the OC hasnt wowed us as advertised in conjunction with QB we plugged in playing behind a really bad O line and NO RUNNING game...

Its not been a great showing along with a dinosaur of a HC who would love to run his dream of a Turtle Offense...

Still we have time to fix much of what isnt working and an outside shot at a wild card where maybe we get hot at right time? Likely not, but its there...

More importantly in the off season we need to fix the oversights and correct the correctable and get better on all levels, we will take a look at the tape and make adjustments, come out swinging in 2019! (channeling my best ZIMMatude)

Post #: 161

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 9:52:16 PM

Bill Jandro

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Joined: 8/13/2007
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Personally I have to question whether I want to continue watching football

I've witnessed favoritism opposing GB. But i have never seen what I can only describe as a debuachery by the officials of this game.

I need to re-examine my value of my time and determine if tainted football is worthy of it.

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Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 162

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 9:55:45 PM

Ragnarök

Posts: 2274
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

Personally I have to question whether I want to continue watching football

I've witnessed favoritism opposing GB. But i have never seen what I can only describe as a debuachery by the officials of this game.

I need to re-examine my value of my time and determine if tainted football is worthy of it.

Some of the lack of calls against NE that would have surely and did draw flags for us was glaring...

Could you imagine us teeing up Brady like that after the ball was long gone?

PI and holding was troubling how called in key times too... in general Im not sure it lost us the game but it was there to be seen...

Post #: 163

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 9:57:50 PM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

We are in total agreement then, I wasnt making any huge statements, I totally agree that BOTH years we had very offensive O lines, we just hid it better last year with possibly better play calling and a more scrambling ad lib QB playing outta his mind (likely not sustainable) in schemes that didnt depend solely on time for QB to throw out of a clean pocket.

The D has not been as good as last year, the OC hasnt wowed us as advertised in conjunction with QB we plugged in playing behind a really bad O line and NO RUNNING game...

Its not been a great showing along with a dinosaur of a HC who would love to run his dream of a Turtle Offense...

Still we have time to fix much of what isnt working and an outside shot at a wild card where maybe we get hot at right time? Likely not, but its there...

More importantly in the off season we need to fix the oversights and correct the correctable and get better on all levels, we will take a look at the tape and make adjustments, come out swinging in 2019! (channeling my best ZIMMatude)

Great post. We are in total agreement then.

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Post #: 164

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 9:58:23 PM

bohumm

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline

Could have had Desmond King instead of Ben Gedeon or two fifths that turned into Rodney Adams and Danny Isadora. Better on returns than Sherels and would be our starter in the slot, or even at free safety.

Gedeon did push a guy out of bounds today, and Isadora is so good Compton stayed in the game after missed blocks, holding penalties, and, I believe, a child abduction.

Post #: 165

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 9:59:36 PM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

Personally I have to question whether I want to continue watching football

I've witnessed favoritism opposing GB. But i have never seen what I can only describe as a debuachery by the officials of this game.

I need to re-examine my value of my time and determine if tainted football is worthy of it.

Some of the lack of calls against NE that would have surely and did draw flags for us was glaring...

Could you imagine us teeing up Brady like that after the ball was long gone?

PI and holding was troubling how called in key times too... in general Im not sure it lost us the game but it was there to be seen...

First and goal from the 1 changes the game at that point.

Having to play M Sherels as CB was a huge contributing factor.

Hope we get healthy for next week in the secondary.

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Post #: 166

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 10:10:48 PM

Viking Rich

Posts: 3729
Joined: 2/28/2017
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

I was listening to the Fox announcers and hearing what Strahan was saying about how sometimes a head coach runs his course with a team, referring to McCarthy. At some point, you are going to start getting diminishing returns.

So I went back as far as the 1980 season to see how coaches fared in winning the Super Bowl. How long did it take them to win it?

Almost every Head Coach hired took 5 seasons or less to win the Super Bowl. Only one coach - Bill Cowher, took longer...14 seasons! He was an anomaly.

Three coaches won it in their first season. Zimmer is now in his fifth season. See the list I compiled below:

Tom Flores, Raiders - 1980 (Hired in 1979) 2 YRS
Bill Walsh, 49ers - 1981 (Hired in 1979) 3 YRS

Joe Gibbs, Redskins - 1982 (Hired in 1981) 2 YRS
Mike Ditka, Bears - 1985 (Hired in 1982) 4 YRS

Bill Parcells, Giants - 1986 (Hired in 1983) 4 YRS
George Seifert, 49ers - 1989 (Hired in 1989) 1 YR

Jimmy Johnson, Cowboys - 1992 (Hired in 1989) 4 YRS
Barry Switzer, Cowboys - 1995 (Hired in 1994) 2 YRS

Mike Holmgren, Packers - 1996 (Hired in 1992) 5 YRS
Mike Shanahan, Broncos - 1997 (Hired in 1995) 3 YRS

Dick Vermeil, Rams - 1999 (Hired in 1997) 3 YRS
Brian Billick, Ravens - 2000 (Hired in 1999) 2 YRS

Bill Belichick, Patriots - 2001 (Hired in 2000) 2 YRS
Jon Gruden, Buccaneers - 2002 (Hired in 2002) 1 YR

Bill Cowher, Steelers - 2005 (Hired in 1992) 14 YRS
Tony Dungy, Colts - 2006 (Hired in 2002) 5 YRS

Tom Coughlin, Giants - 2007 (Hired in 2004) 4 YRS
Mike Tomlin, Steelers - 2008 (Hired in 2007) 2 YRS

Sean Payton, Saints - 2009 (Hired in 2006) 4 YRS
Mike McCarthy, Packers - 2010 (Hired in 2006) 5 YRS

John Harbaugh, Ravens - 2012 (Hired in 2008) 5 YRS
Pete Carroll, Seahawks - 2013 (Hired in 2010) 4 YRS

Gary Kubiak, Broncos - 2015 (Hired in 2015) 1 YR
Doug Pederson, Eagles - 2017 (Hired in 2016) 2 YRS

History shows us that coaching hires after 5 years don't win Super Bowls, with one exception. This is Zimmer's 5th year. Are we getting diminishing returns? Should the Vikings buck history if they don't win it this year?

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Post #: 167

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 10:19:29 PM

The Happy Norseman

Posts: 758
Joined: 12/2/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Viking Rich

I was listening to the Fox announcers and hearing what Strahan was saying about how sometimes a head coach runs his course with a team, referring to McCarthy. At some point, you are going to start getting diminishing returns.

So I went back as far as the 1980 season to see how coaches fared in winning the Super Bowl. How long did it take them to win it?

Almost every Head Coach hired took 5 seasons or less to win the Super Bowl. Only one coach - Bill Cowher, took longer...14 seasons! He was an anomaly.

Three coaches won it in their first season. Zimmer is now in his fifth season. See the list I compiled below:

Tom Flores, Raiders - 1980 (Hired in 1979) 2 YRS
Bill Walsh, 49ers - 1981 (Hired in 1979) 3 YRS

Joe Gibbs, Redskins - 1982 (Hired in 1981) 2 YRS
Mike Ditka, Bears - 1985 (Hired in 1982) 4 YRS

Bill Parcells, Giants - 1986 (Hired in 1983) 4 YRS
George Seifert, 49ers - 1989 (Hired in 1989) 1 YR

Jimmy Johnson, Cowboys - 1992 (Hired in 1989) 4 YRS
Barry Switzer, Cowboys - 1995 (Hired in 1994) 2 YRS

Mike Holmgren, Packers - 1996 (Hired in 1992) 5 YRS
Mike Shanahan, Broncos - 1997 (Hired in 1995) 3 YRS

Dick Vermeil, Rams - 1999 (Hired in 1997) 3 YRS
Brian Billick, Ravens - 2000 (Hired in 1999) 2 YRS

Bill Belichick, Patriots - 2001 (Hired in 2000) 2 YRS
Jon Gruden, Buccaneers - 2002 (Hired in 2002) 1 YR

Bill Cowher, Steelers - 2005 (Hired in 1992) 14 YRS
Tony Dungy, Colts - 2006 (Hired in 2002) 5 YRS

Tom Coughlin, Giants - 2007 (Hired in 2004) 4 YRS
Mike Tomlin, Steelers - 2008 (Hired in 2007) 2 YRS

Sean Payton, Saints - 2009 (Hired in 2006) 4 YRS
Mike McCarthy, Packers - 2010 (Hired in 2006) 5 YRS

John Harbaugh, Ravens - 2012 (Hired in 2008) 5 YRS
Pete Carroll, Seahawks - 2013 (Hired in 2010) 4 YRS

Gary Kubiak, Broncos - 2015 (Hired in 2015) 1 YR
Doug Pederson, Eagles - 2017 (Hired in 2016) 2 YRS

History shows us that coaching hires after 5 years don't win Super Bowls, with one exception. This is Zimmer's 5th year. Are we getting diminishing returns? Should the Vikings buck history if they don't win it this year?

Next year is big for Zim and RS. If this team doesn’t see major improvement next year, and go deep in the playoffs, I think they both risk being fired. They may get one more year after that, but the end would be in sight. In theory, Zim, Cousins and Spielman could all be shown the door the same year if things continue trending downward.

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Post #: 168

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 10:27:43 PM

David F.

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quote:

Almost every Head Coach hired took 5 seasons or less to win the Super Bowl. Only one coach - Bill Cowher, took longer...14 seasons! He was an anomaly.

And for that to happen the refs had to perform a robbery in broad daylight against the Seahawks.

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I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 169

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 10:29:10 PM

Viking Rich

Posts: 3729
Joined: 2/28/2017
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

Almost every Head Coach hired took 5 seasons or less to win the Super Bowl. Only one coach - Bill Cowher, took longer...14 seasons! He was an anomaly.

And for that to happen the refs had to perform a robbery in broad daylight against the Seahawks.

Yes! Seattle got robbed

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Give Chandler the Rock

Post #: 170

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 10:36:21 PM

marty

Posts: 12599
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: online

Brady and Wilson are exceptional, they play well and have a good record against good teams.

I see a similar loss next week.

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Post #: 171

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2018 11:25:01 PM

Dana Turner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Brady and Wilson are exceptional, they play well and have a good record against good teams.

I see a similar loss next week.

Very tough to beat Seattle at home. Lets not forget that they are very well coached and are playing on Monday night also. Add that a win would secure a playoff spot for them, yea, it's a big game for them. I don't want to say its a big game for us, well, because when we have a big game, we show up looking like we've lost our car keys.

Post #: 172

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/3/2018 12:40:47 AM

Todd M

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I am going to agree with Zim this week about running more. We were successful running and should have run more. Kirk was not good last night. Most of his passes were behind/at/just past the LOS and was off on almost anything beyond that. Play calling and/or checking down to readily...that was some weak ass shit on O today.

Post #: 173

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/3/2018 2:19:14 AM

Dana Turner

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Joined: 7/27/2007
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Funny the similarities between the our loss to Buffalo and the Bears loosing to the Giants. In both cases the Rams were the opponent next week, think they might have had a lack of focus, probably thinking about the tough match up next week?!? Ouch!

Post #: 174

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/3/2018 2:51:55 AM

Russell Timmons

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From: Guanajuato City, Mexico
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dana Turner

Funny the similarities between the our loss to Buffalo and the Bears loosing to the Giants. In both cases the Rams were the opponent next week, think they might have had a lack of focus, probably thinking about the tough match up next week?!? Ouch!

Perhaps superficially. I watched the Bears/Giants game, and the Bears were in it until the end. It was a pretty good game. The Giants almost blew it on several occasions. The Bears kept the pressure up. On the other hand, the Bills beat us like a red headed step child. They pulverized us. They humiliated us. They treated us like a prison punk being handed around the prison yard for a pack of cigarettes. Have I left out any other descriptive narratives?

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