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TJSweens -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/15/2013 4:28:47 PM)
Look, if you want to revere Angel McCoughtry and call her a superstar, go ahead. I have watched her for 3 years and you will never convince me the player I have watched over that time is a superstar. She led the league in scoring because she jacks up more shots than anyone else. Compare her to Maya Moore, who is on the verge of earning a superstar title. Her FG% is lower than Maya Moores 3pt%. She took about 140 more shots than Moore. Maya tops her in every shooting category and it isn't even close. Angel pulls down fewer rebounds and turns it over more than twice as much. Yes, she has led her team to the top of the weaker conference 3 times. Finally and I can't emphasize this enough, in the biggest series of the year, she checked out. Superstars don't do that. If you want to lower the bar of superstardom to the point that McCoughtry is one, go ahead. I remain, not impressed.

kgdabom -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/15/2013 4:31:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine Ahh yes. Where all of our arguments end up. With you telling me what I'm really thinking/feeling. And with that, I'm out. Way to go DL. When you point out some way that I am wrong I have quite often acknowledged it. You seem to never admit when you are wrong about anything and when your arguments are not holding up you bail out. Remember the winner of an argument is the one who realizes he/she was wrong. I have won a few arguments with you in that way. So far I don't think you have ever won an argument with me.

kgdabom -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/15/2013 4:35:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens Look, if you want to revere Angel McCoughtry and call her a superstar, go ahead. I have watched her for 3 years and you will never convince me the player I have watched over that time is a superstar. She led the league in scoring because she jacks up more shots than anyone else. Compare her to Maya Moore, who is on the verge of earning a superstar title. Her FG% is lower than Maya Moores 3pt%. She took about 140 more shots than Moore. Maya tops her in every shooting category and it isn't even close. Angel pulls down fewer rebounds and turns it over more than twice as much. Yes, she has led her team to the top of the weaker conference 3 times. Finally and I can't emphasize this enough, in the biggest series of the year, she checked out. Superstars don't do that. If you want to lower the bar of superstardom to the point that McCoughtry is one, go ahead. I remain, not impressed. First of all I don't revere Angel McCoughtry. I have followed her for four years and she has managed to take the little talented Dream team to three finals. Call it the weaker conference but she has gotten her team to the finals three out of four years. What does Maya Moore have to do with this debate. Maya is better. So what. Lebron is Better than Kobe. Doesn't mean Kobe isn't a superstar. Edit: I just reread what you typed and now see why you brought Maya Moore into the discussion. It seems that you are claiming that Maya Moore has not achieved superstar status so if you can show that Angel is below her level than you can demonstrate that Angel is not a superstar either. Maya finished runnerup to league MVP this year in a very close vote and was the MVP of the finals. I would say that is enough to earn her superstar status. However, Angel as stated so many times has brought her team to the finals as lead dog three times and has won two scoring titles. What Maya has done should in no way diminish what Angel has done. Also it is not uncommon for the league scoring leader to be the person who takes the most shots. It is also not uncommon for the league scoring leader to have a lot of TOs. In further research supporting the possibility that Angel is not a superstar I see she did not make the WNBA first team but was second team. I am attempting to look at this with an open mind. How many superstars can their be in the WNBA? 5? 10? Maybe you just hold very high standards for the term superstar. I will agree that if Maya Moore is not a superstar in your estimation I do have a lower threshhold for that than you do. I just went to Angel's Wikipedia page to find out some more about her career. Here is a copy and paste. Upon joining the Atlanta Dream, McCoughtry soon made a name for herself as an outstanding scorer with excellent penetration and a penchant for drawing the foul. After grabbing Rookie of the Year honors in 2009, she went on to finish third and second in points per game for 2010 and 2011 respectively. She also led the league in free throw attempts twice. On September 8, 2010, McCoughtry set an WNBA playoff record with 42 points in game two of the Eastern Conference Finals against the New York Liberty. In Game 1 of the 2011 WNBA Finals against the Minnesota Lynx, she set Finals records for most points in a quarter (19) and most points in a game (38). McCoughtry is also heralded as a fine defensive player, not only placing near the top for steals, but also in the top ten for most blocks per game. She has been voted as a member of the league's All Defensive Teams in every year since her rookie season. That concludes everything there is to say regarding her possible superstardom.

David Levine -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/15/2013 4:46:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine Ahh yes. Where all of our arguments end up. With you telling me what I'm really thinking/feeling. And with that, I'm out. Way to go DL. When you point out some way that I am wrong I have quite often acknowledged it. You seem to never admit when you are wrong about anything and when your arguments are not holding up you bail out. Remember the winner of an argument is the one who realizes he/she was wrong. I have won a few arguments with you in that way. So far I don't think you have ever won an argument with me. Wow. And we have now had our final argument. Its been real, Eldon.

David Levine -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/16/2013 11:30:36 AM)
Minnesota Lynx celebrate WNBA title with parade By JON KRAWCZYNSKI AP Basketball Writer MINNEAPOLIS (AP) - Behind a curtain in the bowels of Target Center, the Minnesota Lynx gathered as a team for one last time this season. A few thousand jubilant fans waited in the arena, watching a video introduction for the team that had just captured its second WNBA championship in three seasons. On the big screen, fans read words like "Dynasty" and "Greatest Team In History." "No pressure, guys!" finals MVP Maya Moore said to the group. Whether they want the labels or not, the Lynx are being cast as the next empire in the league, and for good reason. They have made it to the finals for three straight years and twice came away with the title. Their 99 victories are the most in a three-season span in league history and this year they became just the second team to go 7-0 in the playoffs. They have four All-Stars in a core that isn't changing anytime soon, and they are overflowing with the confidence that comes from so much success. "It makes me excited because we have 80 percent of the definition covered," Moore said. "Great team. Great family. Great dominance. Now it's a matter of can we do it over and over and over again? The way you do that is one day at a time." For the second time in three years, the Lynx paraded through downtown Minneapolis after sweeping the Atlanta Dream in the finals. For a sports market that has been wallowing in the struggles of the Twins and Vikings this season, the chance to celebrate a truly dominant team received an enthusiastic response. Thousands of fans lined the streets of Nicollet Mall on a chilly day and followed the caravan of convertibles into Target Center for one last party. Point guard Lindsay Whalen channeled Shaquille O'Neal with an elongated "Can you dig it!!!!" call to the crowd. Assistant coach Shelley Patterson, who was director of basketball operations for the Houston Comets in 1999 when they won the third of their four straight titles, told the crowd she had been hesitant to compare the two teams. "But after the sweeping and butt-whooping we've given," Patterson said to a roar, "this team, by far, is the best team, the most coachable team." The Lynx had the second-youngest roster in the league this season and extended the contracts of Whalen and star shooting guard Seimone Augustus, so they will be well-positioned to defend their title next season. The last time they were in this position, the Lynx lost to the Indiana Fever in the finals last year. Now they'll be the defending champions again. "I think we're going to embrace that idea," coach Cheryl Reeve said. "People have been gunning for us for three years. As long as we're healthy and have that core group back, we're equipped to handle it." Augustus is the longest-tenured Lynx player, and she has been through the lows of her first few seasons in the organization, when the franchise was one of the perennial doormats in the Western Conference. That all feels so long ago to her now, and she is enjoying being the team that every other team wants to beat. "The (bull's eye) is probably going to be huge next year," Augustus said. "A lot of other teams want to be in this position. We've been here, fortunately, for the last three years. People are probably getting tired of hearing about the Lynx. But you're going to have to deal with it."

David Jerde -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/16/2013 12:23:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom ... the winner of an argument is the one who realizes he/she was wrong. I have won a few arguments with you in that way ... You so funny. If you never realize you're wrong, you'll always win. What a great way to live! quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom ... I just went to Angel's Wikipedia page to find out some more about her career ... Finally, an authoritative source for all information Angel-superstardomishistic.

kgdabom -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/16/2013 4:26:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David Jerde quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom ... the winner of an argument is the one who realizes he/she was wrong. I have won a few arguments with you in that way ... You so funny. If you never realize you're wrong, you'll always win. What a great way to live! quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom ... I just went to Angel's Wikipedia page to find out some more about her career ... Finally, an authoritative source for all information Angel-superstardomishistic. David did you even read what you are responding to. What I said is the way to win an argument is to realize that you are wrong. Therefore If you never realize you are wrong you will never win. My definition of winning an argument is by realizing that you are wrong. The person who wins the argument is the person that comes to a new understanding. Is any of that wiki information wrong. Sure it can be wrong on some occasions but it seldom is.

DavidAOlson -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/16/2013 5:36:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: David Jerde quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom ... the winner of an argument is the one who realizes he/she was wrong. I have won a few arguments with you in that way ... You so funny. If you never realize you're wrong, you'll always win. What a great way to live! quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom ... I just went to Angel's Wikipedia page to find out some more about her career ... Finally, an authoritative source for all information Angel-superstardomishistic. David did you even read what you are responding to. What I said is the way to win an argument is to realize that you are wrong. Therefore If you never realize you are wrong you will never win. My definition of winning an argument is by realizing that you are wrong. The person who wins the argument is the person that comes to a new understanding. Is any of that wiki information wrong. Sure it can be wrong on some occasions but it seldom is. The use of the generic "you" can lead to misunderstandings. It's quite sensible for him to read a sentence with "you" as directed at him personally because, well, that is the typical usage of the word in conversation.

Bruce Johnson -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/16/2013 7:42:00 PM)
I'm not sure that Maya is the best player on the Lynx team, but I do believe she is a superstar. I would certainly call her the most nationally recognized and most marquee player on the team. It reminds me of the Celtics teams from the early 60's. Bill Russell was clearly not as good as Wilt and in my opinion was not even the best player on the team. He was the most marquee player, though, and he was really good. Great, actually, but what made him better and all of the players on that team better was that they played so well as a team. edit: I thought about it some more and I do believe that Maya now is the best player on the team. She may have not been a year ago.

TJSweens -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/16/2013 9:18:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson I'm not sure that Maya is the best player on the Lynx team, but I do believe she is a superstar. I would certainly call her the most nationally recognized and most marquee player on the team. Maya had a breakout year to be sure. I still think it's too soon to put her in that category.

kgdabom -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/16/2013 11:25:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DavidAOlson quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: David Jerde quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom ... the winner of an argument is the one who realizes he/she was wrong. I have won a few arguments with you in that way ... You so funny. If you never realize you're wrong, you'll always win. What a great way to live! quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom ... I just went to Angel's Wikipedia page to find out some more about her career ... Finally, an authoritative source for all information Angel-superstardomishistic. David did you even read what you are responding to. What I said is the way to win an argument is to realize that you are wrong. Therefore If you never realize you are wrong you will never win. My definition of winning an argument is by realizing that you are wrong. The person who wins the argument is the person that comes to a new understanding. Is any of that wiki information wrong. Sure it can be wrong on some occasions but it seldom is. The use of the generic "you" can lead to misunderstandings. It's quite sensible for him to read a sentence with "you" as directed at him personally because, well, that is the typical usage of the word in conversation. quote: the winner of an argument is the one who realizes he/she was wrong. I have won a few arguments with you in that way ... Wow lot of Davids around here. David O here is the post that David J took that quote from which was directed to David L. Way to go DL. When you point out some way that I am wrong I have quite often acknowledged it. You seem to never admit when you are wrong about anything and when your arguments are not holding up you bail out. Remember the winner of an argument is the one who realizes he/she was wrong. I have won a few arguments with you in that way. So far I don't think you have ever won an argument with me. How can a person read that quote and interpret it as me saying or thinking I am never wrong. One of my very favorite things is being shown that I am wrong. That is how I learn.

TJSweens -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/17/2013 8:24:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom Way to go DL. When you point out some way that I am wrong I have quite often acknowledged it. You seem to never admit when you are wrong about anything and when your arguments are not holding up you bail out. The fact that he gets tired of beating his head against a wall in arguing with you does not mean that his argument isn't holding up. That logic boils down to "you quit, so I win".

kgdabom -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/18/2013 2:16:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom Way to go DL. When you point out some way that I am wrong I have quite often acknowledged it. You seem to never admit when you are wrong about anything and when your arguments are not holding up you bail out. The fact that he gets tired of beating his head against a wall in arguing with you does not mean that his argument isn't holding up. That logic boils down to "you quit, so I win". DL is a smart guy. He has pointed out errors in my thinking or something that I have posted on a number of occasions of which I appreciate. I have acknowledged these occasions. In my experience with him, however he has never once that I recall acknowledged that his reasoning might be wrong. In my experience with him it seems to be more important to him to show that he is right rather than to come to the conclusion of what is actually right.

Karl Juhnke -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/19/2013 7:54:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson I'm not sure that Maya is the best player on the Lynx team, but I do believe she is a superstar. I would certainly call her the most nationally recognized and most marquee player on the team. Maya had a breakout year to be sure. I still think it's too soon to put her in that category. Moore and Augustus are two different types of stars. Hard to say which I would rate higher, at least at this point. Moore is an all around player. Does everything well. Like maybe a a Grant Hill in his prime? Augustus is more of a cold blooded scorer.

Minnyme -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/20/2013 11:56:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: Minnyme Why yes, yes I did [sm=occasion14.gif] Thanks for asking [;)] Only the parade followed by an early happy hour left to end the 2013 celabration of the 2013 WNBA Champion MN Lynx ! Didn't go down to ATL .... I mean Duluth for the game this year. It is less stressful & more fun to be there in person though. Did go to the Riverview Thearter which was packed, a few single seats here or there. Was very lively of course. ------------------------------------- As for the Angel discussion, she really is a freakishly athletic player, VERY quick. She is a scorer but not a great shooter. She really isn’t surrounded by that much talent. But it is her attitude during games that's a turnoff. I guess when speaking of superstars, media can dub players superstars, fans tab their own superstars and then coaches/players make up game plans around. When it comes to game plans, Seimone is at the top of lists; Whalen is at the top of lists. That opened things up for Maya as she’s come along. That has been key to Maya’s development. She’s incredibly talented & smart enough to know this, says it all the time, that it’s been key to her learning & just playing the game. But, Maya has NEVER had to carry the load for an entire WNBA team through a season. And she won’t as long as she is playing alongside healthy players like Augustus, Whalen & Brunson because they make her life easier. She’s been very fortunate. Angel hasn't had this luxury. She’s had 3 different PGs in 3 different finals. This year, Angel was surrounded by some young talent, no true point guard (point by committee) and a talented but overly emotional center. Not to mention a head coach who was waaaay too passive to me. The fact that Angel has got ATL to 3 finals really is admirable considering maybe only once have they been the favorite to come out of the East. But looking at the East conference, it’s a mess. Lots of injuries to teams or new coaches or full of young players. Most of the top talent, superstars if you will, are in the West. Just thinking, say Maya was in Angle's place, would the Dream be a better team? I think so. (no need for me to do a full swap & have Angel w/the Lyxn cuz I gotta believe Reeve would move her for another missing piece lol ) Anyway, just glad we have the team we've got. Our Lynx are the class of the league hands down. [sm=thumb.gif] Excellent analysis. Thanks for being a voice of reason. Its VERY good. She gave a balanced viewpoint of Angel's strengths, weakness and situation. She also didn't say if she considers her a superstar or not. [:D] Well DL after some thought here's me 2 cents, let me try anyway [;)] Media : She is a superstar, independent of her team. She’s crazy athletic with basketball skills, has a charismatic personality (love her or hate her) so she’s made for TV and attention. Maybe a mixed bag of why people would come to watch her; more might be looking for her to show out & fail then to see her really show case the best of her talents. Fans: Who do folks view as the “Super Stars” of the league by the way? She’s a star, not too sure if most would view her as a super star? For me, I guess I don’t have her in the “super star” status. She has the ability to drag her team down near as much as she can lift them with her play and attitude. True enough she is the “head of the snake”, enemy #1 on scout reports, disrupt her and dare the rest of the team to beat you. So coaches & her peers might view her as a “super star". I may have a biased opinion in that I view the East as the weaker conference. Put ATL in the West & they don’t get near the Finals and she’s easily just another star player in the league who had yet played for a title. Kind of like how people viewed Seimone prior to making the playoffs & winning a title. Which brings up another aspect to “super star” status. I really think most often it takes “that player”, playing alongside equals and other star to very good players to bring out or more so showcase the “super” in said "player". Seimone was always a super star (to me) because she had been (& still is IMO) the most efficient scoring perimeter player in the world. But the world (more people) got to see what she was all about on the biggest stage while winning a title. Same maybe for Whalen. I’m really not so sure Angel does anything “better” then anyone else in the league and she hasn’t been associated with “winning” it all. I just remembered, she’s always 2nd best w/her teams (got Louisville to Final 4 Championship her senior yr only to lose to Maya/UConn. ) Diana Taurasi, like Angel is also a volume shooter but the difference has been DT is associated with winning. Different sport but take John Elway; wasn’t there more debate regarding his greatness/super star status prior to winning a Super Bowl? After, not much to debate right? So my summation, maybe not fair but in her case; super star talent but hasn't earned true "Super Star" status just yet? Angel still needs to do some maturing and be surrounded by more talent to maybe fully be appreciated and seen by the masses as a super star. Otherwise she’s still part of a WIDE open debate.

TJSweens -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/21/2013 9:52:23 AM)
Excellent summation as always. I guess for me in all sports the term "superstar" is over used and as a result the bar has been continuously lowered throughout time. I believe in any sport there are only a handful of true superstars. I don't ascribe to the idea that if you are in the top x% of players at any given time that you are automatically a super star. There are many criteria and some of is intangible and subjective. In case of Angel I think there are legitimate challenges to that status. As MM pointed out, what kind of player is she in the West? She can drag her team down as easily as she can carry it. How does she deal with adversity? In the end I think MM has probably hit on the best analysis. Superstar talent, but not yet a superstar resume.

Jeff Jesser -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/21/2013 2:53:33 PM)
The Carmelo Anthony of WNBA.

David Levine -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/21/2013 2:57:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser The Carmelo Anthony of WNBA. Not a bad comparison. Carmelo does some things very well - elite even. But there are also obvious holes in his game and with him as a player/teammate. He fills up a boxscore, but when you watch him, something is missing. He's definitely a star. He's definitely not a superstar.

kgdabom -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/21/2013 5:24:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser The Carmelo Anthony of WNBA. There is no universally accepted definition of a superstar. Carmelo Anthony IMO is a superstar based on people making a very big deal out of him. Superstar as in famous, fawned over etc. Carmelo has led the league in scoring. He has not managed to get his team to the finals. Angel's resume has 2 scoring titles a runner up and a 3rd place finish for scoring titles. Angel has led her team to three finals in four years. Based on that criterion I see Angel as much more deserving of the title superstar than Carmelo even though I see Carmelo as being a superstar. The term superstar is IMO more a notoriety thing than talent thing. Dennis Rodman was at least in some sense of the word a superstar. Don't misinterpret me. Talent still plays a part but the notoriety is the bigger part of the equation. Edit: I looked up the Websters dictionary definition of the word superstar. I hope that is considered a authoritative source. 1: a star (as in sports or the movies) who is considered extremely talented, has great public appeal, and can usually command a high salary 2: one that is very prominent or is a prime attraction <a diplomatic superstar>

kgdabom -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/21/2013 5:29:58 PM)
self deleted duplicate

TJSweens -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/21/2013 6:21:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom Edit: I looked up the Websters dictionary definition of the word superstar. I hope that is considered a authoritative source. Not really. Superstar is pretty subjective. The definitions proffered by Websters are pretty watered down IMO. To call Carmello a super star is to put him in the same class as Lebron and Kobe. He is not in the same class as Lebron and Kobe.

David Jerde -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/21/2013 9:54:54 PM)
Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall

kgdabom -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/22/2013 3:16:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom Edit: I looked up the Websters dictionary definition of the word superstar. I hope that is considered a authoritative source. Not really. Superstar is pretty subjective. The definitions proffered by Websters are pretty watered down IMO. To call Carmello a super star is to put him in the same class as Lebron and Kobe. He is not in the same class as Lebron and Kobe. Sweens I already acknowledged that there is no universally accepted definition of superstar. I am not trying to win an argument here I am simply providing information. When it comes to word definitions the reason I used the Websters dictionary is that they are probably the most commonly accepted source of definitions that are available. Would you agree that in that sense they are authoritative? As for Carmelo being in the same class as Kobe and Lebron he certainly is not as good as them but he is an NBA basketball player and in that way he is in the same class as Lebron, Kobe, JJ Barea etc. He may at this point even be a better player than Kobe. This season will bear that out one way or another. Kobe is certainly IMO not as good as Lebron but I still have no problem putting him in the superstar class with Lebron.

kgdabom -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/22/2013 3:20:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David Jerde Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall David J you made a comment regarding my post earlier that was extremely wrong as if you hadn't even bothered reading what I wrote and you just wanted to reply and did so in a derisive mocking manner. Have you bothered apologizing to me? Have fun beating your head against a wall.

David Jerde -> RE: Minnesota Lynx (10/22/2013 4:46:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: David Jerde Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall Head, meet wall David J you made a comment regarding my post earlier that was extremely wrong as if you hadn't even bothered reading what I wrote and you just wanted to reply and did so in a derisive mocking manner. Have you bothered apologizing to me? Have fun beating your head against a wall. I post under my real name. I read your original messages and arrived at an interpretation. I reread your messages following your reply and could see no merit in your defense. An apology is neither appropriate nor necessary. The head/wall comment is not directed at you specifically, just my general observation that there will not be an agreement on the topic of Angel. Given the divergence of strong opinion, I don't understand why the dialogue (more of a series of monologues) continues.

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