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ORIGINAL: thebigo

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ORIGINAL: kgdabom

I do want to apologize for speaking too much off the top of my head about the founding fathers and slavery. Due to Pagers challenge I have been looking into that and I have found out some interesting things. I may comment on that more, but not until I'm done looking into it.

Elsewhere please.

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ORIGINAL: Lynn G.

KG, I have lived a pretty good and decently long life so far, and one thing I have learned is that humans are rarely the silhouettes we imagine them to be. We're complex, interesting, sometimes disturbing people filled with flaws and talents. We are influenced by things very early in life but also, when exposed to different views later sometimes evolve our views and our behaviors. There are some that never really evolve and simply perpetuate the biases of our parents and their parents, but the more we expose ourselves to things outside of our sphere the more interesting WE become.

It is entirely possible to admire the way our forefathers crafted a new nation and embraced freedoms and liberty and self-reliance and all of the democratic (small d) institutions we as a nation treasure - AND for us to also cringe at and criticize their human failings. Someone can be both a high thinking idealist AND a brute in their own home.

It is a truth that some of our leaders in our history have led lives in which they hurt other people, but at the same time, wrote great legislation. Just like we can't rationalize that someone said something hurtful when they were drunk and blame it on the booze, we can't blame a man like Thomas Jefferson's ownership of slaves on the "but everyone was doing it" excuse.

Thomas Jefferson was both brilliant and wretched. He was both forward thinking and stubbornly wedded to the economic and social disgrace of slavery. And he was brilliant. The damage he was doing to the people he enslaved was not lost on him. He understood that the privileges he had as a white, wealthy landowner were a far cry from the lives his slaves led, yet his weakness was that he couldn't disengage himself from that perpetuated horror.

Who do you know that is a super smart guy but still does really stupid things sometimes? Have you ever met anyone with high academic prowess but not a lick of common sense? Have you ever known anyone that volunteers long hours to help others but also displays road rage because of an imagined insult from another driver?

Humans are complex and horrifically flawed. But we are also fascinating and talented and innovative and kind and forever dreamers.

That's MY answer to your question about the forefathers, and, interestingly, it is also the reason why the Nike ad is brilliantly done.

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ORIGINAL: marty

Lynn, that is a brilliant post.

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ORIGINAL: David Levine

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ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

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ORIGINAL: TJSweens

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ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

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ORIGINAL: thebigo

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ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

I liked the commercial

I think it was very brave for Nike to pick Kaep

A little surprised Nike didn't insist Kaep to get a hair cut. I think Kaep would resonate better if he were in a suit and tie and lose the mop hair.

Not $ driven at all I'm sure.

Good message, wrong messenger.

Why is he the wrong messenger? Is he not the one that started the taking a knee protests. Has it not essentially cost him his career?

The guy has lived a more privileged life than 99.2% of all Americans. Privileged upbringing, free college through sports and 20+ million in the bank.

It was a pop culture choice. Flavor of the year type choice. Thousands, maybe millions more deserved if Nike would do some research and find a black athlete that never got the chance because of racism.

Having a very well known person give up his career for what he believes in is a way more powerful and potent message than using one of the anonymous people he's going to bat for.

The very fact that someone so privileged cares enough about the issue that he's willing to go to bat for his constitutional rights is the story.

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ORIGINAL: TJSweens

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ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

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ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Which is exactly my point. He chose to protest and raise awareness at the expense of his own career.

He did.

But the original point I was making is that he didn't give up "everything" like the commercial says. Do it your rookie year and then you gave up "everything".

You're being ridiculous here Mark. How could he lose everything if he never had anything? Yes, he had already made some money. He was also in his prime years and lost a boat load of future earnings. He had a high profile career and was earning a lot of money and that's all gone because he chose to make a stand. I'm not sure what's not registering for you here.

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ORIGINAL: thebigo

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ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Which is exactly my point. He chose to protest and raise awareness at the expense of his own career.

My guess is he did on a grandiose whim, not really aware of the potential blowback.

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ORIGINAL: Lars

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ORIGINAL: David F.

Reading this thread proves to me that Nike accomplished it's goal of the ad campaign. Supporters like myself now feel a strong attachment to the brand and detractors are grasping at straws - finding any miniscule detail that isn't exactly correct ("he didn't lose everything - he still has some money"). The main point is that everyone is talking about it and detractors are spending a lot time THINKING about Nike. Kudos to them. LOL reading this thread I'm surprised there wasn't some public hub-bub when they released 'Just Do It'. Technically it doesn't say what 'it' is - or how to do it. Therefore the campaign is bullshit. LOL.

Funny thing is....it has no impact on how I feel about Nike at all. They are about making money. CK is the vehicle today.

I personally liked the "I am not a role model" controversy much more.

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ORIGINAL: David F.

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ORIGINAL: Lars

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ORIGINAL: David F.

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ORIGINAL: Lars

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ORIGINAL: David F.

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ORIGINAL: Lars

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ORIGINAL: David F.

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ORIGINAL: Lars

Nike is paying Kaepernick, therefore it has not cost him everything.

I think the way Yary has captured this is correct. CK was at work, in his company's work uniform, pushing his social agenda while on then clock in a way knowing it would agitate people. This ain't Tommy Smith and the '68 Olympics.

The NFL has every right to ask folks to not do that. Where they have dropped the ball is by not picking up the issue that CK was bringing to light.

If i was in people's face at work about my political views, there would be consequences.

False premise.

How so?

If I did the equivalent, there would be consequences.

He's not in peoples' faces and you could easily do something like wear a MAGA hat and you would suffer no consequences from your employer. You're framing the debate in a 'rich, entitled guy vs. Everyday Joes' setting.

If I wore a MAGA hat around at work, there would be consequences. People are VERY passionate about political issues and would voice their issues.

You think some kid could wear a MAGA pin on his shirt working at a BK in Boston?

False premise again. To be equivalent the kid would have to be blackballed from all restaurants. Also the kid (or you with a MAGA hat) would only be requesting to wear it for two minutes before your shift starts.

And for those 2 minutes, the kid is on national TV...

Look...if the NFL has blackballed this kid, they need to pay. THAT is not the solution and the NFL has stepped in it big time here.

I think what CK did was with the right intentions. He and the NFL should have found a productive way to deal with it after that. NFL screwed the pooch.

If? The dude got blackballed. That's not even up for debate.

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ORIGINAL: Lars

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ORIGINAL: David Levine

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ORIGINAL: Lars

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ORIGINAL: David F.

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ORIGINAL: Lars

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ORIGINAL: David Levine

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ORIGINAL: Lars

Nike is paying Kaepernick, therefore it has not cost him everything.

I think the way Yary has captured this is correct. CK was at work, in his company's work uniform, pushing his social agenda while on then clock in a way knowing it would agitate people. This ain't Tommy Smith and the '68 Olympics.

The NFL has every right to ask folks to not do that. Where they have dropped the ball is by not picking up the issue that CK was bringing to light.

If i was in people's face at work about my political views, there would be consequences.

How is kneeling during the anthem the same as getting in people's faces?

Its kind of the opposite. He wasn't pushing anything, he wasn't telling people how to act. He was doing a quiet thing that literally needed to be pointed out by the media for people to get offended.

If it was not in perople's faces, then why do so many see it as inflamatory?

What if he stood there and did a Nazi salute? Or grabbed his nuts? It's only for 2 minutes....he didn't say anything....

If it was no big deal, we wouldn't be talking about it.

He didn't. Why do you keep trying to re-frame this debate in a way that vilifies CK?

Because people try to act like what he did should not have gotten people upset..."it was no big deal"..."not in anyone's face"....

I personally think what he did should NOT be in the workplace (where he was) and the timing was disrespectful.

I personally think he picked the ideal time and place.

What's the point of a peaceful protest if no one sees it?

What's the point of a peaceful protest if it doesn't make people at least a little uncomfortable?

No problem with that. But if he thought there would be no price for doubling down on it, he is a fool. He was at work.

He made lots of cash. Start a foundation. Take out a full page ad in every paper. Whatever...

Now Nike is making money off him just like NFL did.

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ORIGINAL: thebigo

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ORIGINAL: TJSweens

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ORIGINAL: Lars

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ORIGINAL: David Levine


And the message is getting out there to more people. And more people are talking/fighting about it. Way more than if he started a foundation or ran an ad.

Change doesn't happen without making a lot of people uncomfortable.

What message? I think that ha been lost in all of this.

And it is not provable if he would have had more impact going about it another way.

Which again is the point. There were no guarantees for him when he started his protest. He did it any way.

In a "hey my playing career seems to be going down the drain, so I'll get people to look at me another way" way.

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ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

My favorite part of this is all the dumbass people burning their Nike shit. Hey Morons. You already bought that stuff. Nike's already got your money for it.

here's a suggestion.

Give the Nike stuff that you now hate because they put a football player who dared to protest something on one of their ads, to homeless veterans whom you pretend to care about.

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ORIGINAL: bohumm

Kap quit standing in August 2016. In July 2016, Sterling Brown and Philando Castille were shot on consecutive days in two of the more egregious unjustified shootings of black men by police officers. This is what Kap said after the second preseason game he refused to stand for:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

In a time of tremendous upheaval because of violence against black men by officers who rarely faced charges and even more rarely are convicted, Kap used an available platform to make a thoughtful stand, evidenced by consulting with a prominent vet who convinced him kneeling was better.

And again, here's some background on Kap and other prominent black athletes with regard to out of control police:

Colin Kaepernick's wealth and fame don't protect him from police brutality. Here's proof
From another link:
In your mind, have you been pulled over unjustly or had bad experiences?

CK: Yes, multiple times. I’ve had times where one of my roommates was moving out of the house in college, and because we were the only black people in that neighborhood, the cops got called and we had guns drawn on us. Came in the house, without knocking, guns drawn on my teammates and roommates. So I have experienced this. People close to me have experienced this. This isn’t something that’s a one-off case here or a one-off case there. This has become habitual. This has become a habit. So this is something that needs to be addressed.another link

Think of this in context and from another point of view than your own. There is no clear reason not to take Kap at his word for the motivation for his ongoing demonstration.

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ORIGINAL: joejitsu

P.S., my father broke his back and legs in a combat jump attempting to rescue people he did not even know. I defer to him when it comes to sacrificing everything when standing up for something. Lighten up, folks.

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ORIGINAL: kgdabom

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ORIGINAL: joejitsu

P.S., my father broke his back and legs in a combat jump attempting to rescue people he did not even know. I defer to him when it comes to sacrificing everything when standing up for something. Lighten up, folks.

Your father and the first responders on 9/11. They are heroes who lost everything.

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ORIGINAL: joejitsu

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ORIGINAL: kgdabom

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ORIGINAL: joejitsu

P.S., my father broke his back and legs in a combat jump attempting to rescue people he did not even know. I defer to him when it comes to sacrificing everything when standing up for something. Lighten up, folks.

Your father and the first responders on 9/11. They are heroes who lost everything.

+1. Thanks, man. My dad is my hero.

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ORIGINAL: kgdabom

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ORIGINAL: joejitsu

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ORIGINAL: kgdabom

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ORIGINAL: joejitsu

P.S., my father broke his back and legs in a combat jump attempting to rescue people he did not even know. I defer to him when it comes to sacrificing everything when standing up for something. Lighten up, folks.

Your father and the first responders on 9/11. They are heroes who lost everything.

+1. Thanks, man. My dad is my hero.

My hero is a man named Paul Reusesabagina a real life person who's actions were portrayed in the movie Hotel Rwanda. Risked everything including his own life to save about a thousand people during genocide in Rwanda.
Some people claim that he wasn't a hero at all and the accounts of his actions during the genocide were a fabrication. I can't believe that.

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ORIGINAL: joejitsu

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ORIGINAL: kgdabom

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ORIGINAL: joejitsu

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ORIGINAL: kgdabom

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ORIGINAL: joejitsu

P.S., my father broke his back and legs in a combat jump attempting to rescue people he did not even know. I defer to him when it comes to sacrificing everything when standing up for something. Lighten up, folks.

Your father and the first responders on 9/11. They are heroes who lost everything.

+1. Thanks, man. My dad is my hero.

My hero is a man named Paul Reusesabagina a real life person who's actions were portrayed in the movie Hotel Rwanda. Risked everything including his own life to save about a thousand people during genocide in Rwanda.
Some people claim that he wasn't a hero at all and the accounts of his actions during the genocide were a fabrication. I can't believe that.

I've read about that. He acted when everyone else was standing down. Including entire governments.

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ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

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ORIGINAL: David F.

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ORIGINAL: Lars

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ORIGINAL: David F.

Reading this thread proves to me that Nike accomplished it's goal of the ad campaign. Supporters like myself now feel a strong attachment to the brand and detractors are grasping at straws - finding any miniscule detail that isn't exactly correct ("he didn't lose everything - he still has some money"). The main point is that everyone is talking about it and detractors are spending a lot time THINKING about Nike. Kudos to them. LOL reading this thread I'm surprised there wasn't some public hub-bub when they released 'Just Do It'. Technically it doesn't say what 'it' is - or how to do it. Therefore the campaign is bullshit. LOL.

Funny thing is....it has no impact on how I feel about Nike at all. They are about making money. CK is the vehicle today.

I personally liked the "I am not a role model" controversy much more.

I didn't say it changed anyone's mind - I said everyone it thinking about it and many are talking about it.

Also - from now on if I'm ever looking at a rack of Nike shirts and a rack of Under Armor shirts, and the price is the same or close - I'm buying the Nike every time.

and I'll buy the Under Armor