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kgdabom -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 10:36:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
.
if we keep him two years it's equivalent to keeping our old deal at $7.7m for this season and giving him a raise of $9m next season....i think we would have done better to extend waynes to develop some immediate cap savings....


Sean Borman@SeanBoarMan
Kyle Rudolph cap hits under new deal:

• 2019: $3.55M
• 2020: $8.825M
• 2021: $9.45M
• 2022: $10.25M
• 2023: $11.65M

Dead money:
• 2019: $9
• 2020: $5.8M
• 2021: $4.35M
• 2022: $2.9M
• 2023: $1.45M

Looking at the dead cap hits it seems almost certain we keep Rudy through 2021. Add in the smaller dead cap of 22-23 to me it appears to be a 3 year deal at 26.175 million. AAV of $8.725 Million. So much for those thinking he was going to be signing for $3 million a year after this one. Seems like too much even to me and I'm a big Rudy fan.




David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 10:40:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
.
if we keep him two years it's equivalent to keeping our old deal at $7.7m for this season and giving him a raise of $9m next season....i think we would have done better to extend waynes to develop some immediate cap savings....


Sean Borman@SeanBoarMan
Kyle Rudolph cap hits under new deal:

• 2019: $3.55M
• 2020: $8.825M
• 2021: $9.45M
• 2022: $10.25M
• 2023: $11.65M

Dead money:
• 2019: $9
• 2020: $5.8M
• 2021: $4.35M
• 2022: $2.9M
• 2023: $1.45M

Looking at the dead cap hits it seems almost certain we keep Rudy through 2021. Add in the smaller dead cap of 22-23 to me it appears to be a 3 year deal at 26.175 million. AAV of $8.725 Million. So much for those thinking he was going to be signing for $3 million a year after this one. Seems like too much even to me and I'm a big Rudy fan.


It seems like too much because it is too much. We'll never know what he would have got on the open market. The Vikings made a mistake on this one in my opinion. Kyle Rudolph = Joe Mauer Lite.




Trekgeekscott -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 10:43:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Ben Leber was on the radio this morning sharing that he's wondering if it's wise for the Vikings to go "old school" with Kubiak's offense at a time when "new school" are evolving and showing themselves to be successful.

On the other hand, he is noting how the defenses are going more and more with the nickel packages, (ie. taking a linebacker off the field) and may be exposing themselves to a more physical ground attack.



I've been saying it for years. The smart coaches are going to be pushing hard for really good running attacks in the next few years with defenses being build to stop the passing game. I am surprised to be honest that the Belichick Genius hasn't already moved in that direction...and that may have something to do with why they aren't pursuing Gronk replacements. They may be shifting to more run oriented offense that will appear to be genius to all the dipshit talking heads.




TJSweens -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 10:52:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Ben Leber was on the radio this morning sharing that he's wondering if it's wise for the Vikings to go "old school" with Kubiak's offense at a time when "new school" are evolving and showing themselves to be successful.

On the other hand, he is noting how the defenses are going more and more with the nickel packages, (ie. taking a linebacker off the field) and may be exposing themselves to a more physical ground attack.



I've been saying it for years. The smart coaches are going to be pushing hard for really good running attacks in the next few years with defenses being build to stop the passing game. I am surprised to be honest that the Belichick Genius hasn't already moved in that direction...and that may have something to do with why they aren't pursuing Gronk replacements. They may be shifting to more run oriented offense that will appear to be genius to all the dipshit talking heads.


Old or new school, you have to design an offense that fits the players you have. We'll find that out when the season starts.




ratoppenheimer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 10:53:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
.
if we keep him two years it's equivalent to keeping our old deal at $7.7m for this season and giving him a raise of $9m next season....i think we would have done better to extend waynes to develop some immediate cap savings....


Sean Borman@SeanBoarMan
Kyle Rudolph cap hits under new deal:

• 2019: $3.55M
• 2020: $8.825M
• 2021: $9.45M
• 2022: $10.25M
• 2023: $11.65M

Dead money:
• 2019: $9
• 2020: $5.8M
• 2021: $4.35M
• 2022: $2.9M
• 2023: $1.45M

Looking at the dead cap hits it seems almost certain we keep Rudy through 2021. Add in the smaller dead cap of 22-23 to me it appears to be a 3 year deal at 26.175 million. AAV of $8.725 Million. So much for those thinking he was going to be signing for $3 million a year after this one. Seems like too much even to me and I'm a big Rudy fan.




i see it as a $16.72m/2yr deal - if he's playing very well it goes beyond that....




David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 12:23:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
.
if we keep him two years it's equivalent to keeping our old deal at $7.7m for this season and giving him a raise of $9m next season....i think we would have done better to extend waynes to develop some immediate cap savings....


Sean Borman@SeanBoarMan
Kyle Rudolph cap hits under new deal:

• 2019: $3.55M
• 2020: $8.825M
• 2021: $9.45M
• 2022: $10.25M
• 2023: $11.65M

Dead money:
• 2019: $9
• 2020: $5.8M
• 2021: $4.35M
• 2022: $2.9M
• 2023: $1.45M

Looking at the dead cap hits it seems almost certain we keep Rudy through 2021. Add in the smaller dead cap of 22-23 to me it appears to be a 3 year deal at 26.175 million. AAV of $8.725 Million. So much for those thinking he was going to be signing for $3 million a year after this one. Seems like too much even to me and I'm a big Rudy fan.




i see it as a $16.72m/2yr deal - if he's playing very well it goes beyond that....


It's tough to say if the Vikes would be willing to eat $4.35 million in dead cap for just one player in 2021 but you never know. Looking back I found they were willing to eat $6 million for Greg Jennings, $3.5 million for Alex Boone, and large amounts I can't recall at the moment for Blair Walsh, Mike Remmers, Jarius Wright and some others.




Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 12:39:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
.
if we keep him two years it's equivalent to keeping our old deal at $7.7m for this season and giving him a raise of $9m next season....i think we would have done better to extend waynes to develop some immediate cap savings....


Sean Borman@SeanBoarMan
Kyle Rudolph cap hits under new deal:

• 2019: $3.55M
• 2020: $8.825M
• 2021: $9.45M
• 2022: $10.25M
• 2023: $11.65M

Dead money:
• 2019: $9
• 2020: $5.8M
• 2021: $4.35M
• 2022: $2.9M
• 2023: $1.45M

Looking at the dead cap hits it seems almost certain we keep Rudy through 2021. Add in the smaller dead cap of 22-23 to me it appears to be a 3 year deal at 26.175 million. AAV of $8.725 Million. So much for those thinking he was going to be signing for $3 million a year after this one. Seems like too much even to me and I'm a big Rudy fan.


It seems like too much because it is too much. We'll never know what he would have got on the open market. The Vikings made a mistake on this one in my opinion. Kyle Rudolph = Joe Mauer Lite.

IMO it is a three year deal – averaging about 7.23 M a year (which is probably average for the top 10 TEs 2019-2021).

Rudy will either continue to produce like he has over the last 3-4 years, or not, which ultimately will determine how good the deal is for the team. Not pro or con fan bias.

It is no coincidence that the cap relief we got this year is mostly the dead cap space worked into the back of Rudy's deal. We simply used his extension to defer money from the cap in 2019 and spread it over 2022-2023. (Where presumably we will have finagled more room to absorb those costs than in 2019)

That dead cap space is NOT to punish ourselves by paying for a no longer on the roster, long in the tooth slow TE. If Rudy is still on the team in 2022, it will be on a new deal for a bending-over-backwards-to-stay Rudy with no trade leverage to bargain with.




kgdabom -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 2:18:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
.
if we keep him two years it's equivalent to keeping our old deal at $7.7m for this season and giving him a raise of $9m next season....i think we would have done better to extend waynes to develop some immediate cap savings....


Sean Borman@SeanBoarMan
Kyle Rudolph cap hits under new deal:

• 2019: $3.55M
• 2020: $8.825M
• 2021: $9.45M
• 2022: $10.25M
• 2023: $11.65M

Dead money:
• 2019: $9
• 2020: $5.8M
• 2021: $4.35M
• 2022: $2.9M
• 2023: $1.45M

Looking at the dead cap hits it seems almost certain we keep Rudy through 2021. Add in the smaller dead cap of 22-23 to me it appears to be a 3 year deal at 26.175 million. AAV of $8.725 Million. So much for those thinking he was going to be signing for $3 million a year after this one. Seems like too much even to me and I'm a big Rudy fan.




i see it as a $16.72m/2yr deal - if he's playing very well it goes beyond that....

He has 4.35 million dead cap year 3. He would have to be playing very poorly to make the Vikings eat that rather than pay him 5.1 over that to play.




kgdabom -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 2:20:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
.
if we keep him two years it's equivalent to keeping our old deal at $7.7m for this season and giving him a raise of $9m next season....i think we would have done better to extend waynes to develop some immediate cap savings....


Sean Borman@SeanBoarMan
Kyle Rudolph cap hits under new deal:

• 2019: $3.55M
• 2020: $8.825M
• 2021: $9.45M
• 2022: $10.25M
• 2023: $11.65M

Dead money:
• 2019: $9
• 2020: $5.8M
• 2021: $4.35M
• 2022: $2.9M
• 2023: $1.45M

Looking at the dead cap hits it seems almost certain we keep Rudy through 2021. Add in the smaller dead cap of 22-23 to me it appears to be a 3 year deal at 26.175 million. AAV of $8.725 Million. So much for those thinking he was going to be signing for $3 million a year after this one. Seems like too much even to me and I'm a big Rudy fan.


It seems like too much because it is too much. We'll never know what he would have got on the open market. The Vikings made a mistake on this one in my opinion. Kyle Rudolph = Joe Mauer Lite.

IMO it is a three year deal – averaging about 7.23 M a year (which is probably average for the top 10 TEs 2019-2021).

Rudy will either continue to produce like he has over the last 3-4 years, or not, which ultimately will determine how good the deal is for the team. Not pro or con fan bias.

It is no coincidence that the cap relief we got this year is mostly the dead cap space worked into the back of Rudy's deal. We simply used his extension to defer money from the cap in 2019 and spread it over 2022-2023. (Where presumably we will have finagled more room to absorb those costs than in 2019)

That dead cap space is NOT to punish ourselves by paying for a no longer on the roster, long in the tooth slow TE. If Rudy is still on the team in 2022, it will be on a new deal for a bending-over-backwards-to-stay Rudy with no trade leverage to bargain with.

I was adding the dead cap hits to the salary to come up with $8.725 million AAV for the three years. Did I do that wrong? If you got it right it sounds much better.




Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 2:34:59 PM)

Coming back to the idea that our team has decided to "punish teams that stay in nickel". We're going run the ball more this year with athletic and mobile offensive linemen, but good running backs who are physical and who are especially adept at getting yards after the first hit. Also, we are going with the two tight end formation where we replace the third receiver with a tight end for more blocking force. That should help wear down the nickel defenses which are down a linebacker. Picture this: defenses are down a little beef and the offense is up a little beef Linebackers usually make most of the tackles vs. the running game and we are going to punish teams that try to defend the run with only two of them. Mattison could be a real key if the team is leading in the fourth quarter and the defenses are already tiring. The offensive linemen should be happy because I always hear that they prefer to run block over pass block. They have the advantage because they know where they are going and the defense becomes more reactive. Of course, with the run/ pass option, they will already be a step behind as they try to analyze the play and figure out what to do. That will especially work if the running game is working.

Now on defense, our team is trying to stay ahead of the curve. We have a really deep defensive line and the plan is to do a lot of rotations to keep them fresher. In addition, maybe (not clear yet) we will be using big safeties like Kearse as kind of like hybrid linebackers. We managed to keep Anthony Barr because as a tall pass defender he helps squeeze the zones on the backside, but yet is also a lethal threat to rush the quarterback. Kearse is tall like Barr and could be a little bit like a Barr II. They may even try using him occasionally to rush the passer. They want to confuse the quarterbacks by not showing where the pass rush will come from. Transcendent players who are flexible in multiple roles make it so there are less "tells" on offense, but also on defense too.

In basketball, a lot of success for teams comes on the basis of exploiting "match ups". The Vikings will be hard to play against because they will have options where they can look at the other team and decide which match ups are better to attack. They can make changes during the game and the opposing teams will go crazy preparing against the Vikings because we will make it difficult to know what we are going to do and because we can choose different things based on the personnel of the defense. The bottom line is that we will be less predictable and there will be more confusion.

I'm just sort of thinking out loud here. I am completely an amateur football analyst, but does this make sense?




Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 2:42:39 PM)

Speaking of transcendent players:

#Vikings undrafted rookie running back/fullback Khari Blasingame is a high character, team-first player who could end up being the steal of the UDFA class.

(Andy Carlson on Twitter)

https://twitter.com/i/status/1140705063326953472




Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 2:52:02 PM)

I said: "Florida State's Dalvin Cook is an electric runner; he has an elite blend of short area agility, linear speed and top notch mental processing during live action. Cook has a rare gift to pick up and process defensive flow and creases in the point of attack with such suddenness that he's planting and cutting before alleys are developed. Cook combines that anticipatory skill with blue chip short area agility and foot speed. His cuts are steep, sudden and can break the grain of pursuit with excellent consistency. Cook has game breaking speed and is a pleasantly well rounded runner; he can impact the game between the tackles or when turning the corner. Cook will consistently beat angles with speed; even when he's looked to be cornered Cook has another gear to break through and pick up large chunks. A three down back and an immediate starter in any offensive system."

I am: Cautiously optimistic. Cook nearly hit 1,000 offensive yards from scrimmage last year despite Latavius Murray getting 140 carries to Cook's 133. Of course, we wouldn't be in this position had Cook not torn his ACL in the 4th game of his rookie season. As the #41 pick of the 2017 NFL Draft, Cook was primed to gobble up the majority of the touches that year and had 354 rushing yards in 4 games before going down with the injury. Last year, Cook missed 5 games with a hamstring issue -- he's only played in 15 games over the last two years.

Here's the good news, fam. The Vikings have brought in Gary Kubiak and his outside zone rushing offense -- along with drafting Garrett Bradbury to man the center of the offensive line. This is all shaping up for a booming year three for Dalvin Cook. No more Latavius Murray, a clean bill of health, Garrett Bradbury in the picture and Gary Kubiak's rushing pedigree behind the scenes. Let's not call this one a miss just yet.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/the--big--board--my-highest-prospect-grades-since-2017--part-ii-




Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 2:55:30 PM)

I said: "Ohio State Offensive Lineman Pat Elflein will be an attractive option early on in the 2017 NFL Draft. He offers positional versatility on the interior and has the functional athleticism to be a valuable part of a protection scheme. Elflein has some lapses with his footwork but overall his functional movement skills and ability to play with strength at the point of attack are assets that are difficult to ignore, particularly in a class that is so top heavy along the offensive interior. Elflein has good recovery balance and an impressive pass set, making him a good fit for the offenses of today's NFL. His punch and hand technique are both strong; he does very well to continue to work after first contact to sustain a favorable grasp on defenders and manipulate the point of attack to produce creases for his running backs. Elflein should be considered a viable plug and play starter on day 1."

I am: Confused. Elflein started bad...and then was good...and now he's back to bad? The #70 pick in 2017, Elflein has been anything but consistent. I'm hoping he's suffering from 'Ryan Kelly' syndrome -- where you are a good player sandwiched between not-good players and it makes you look worse than you are. The offensive line is a delicate balance of chemistry and communication, adding Garrett Bradbury to the mix should help clear the air on exactly who Elflein is in year 3.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/the--big--board--my-highest-prospect-grades-since-2017--part-1-




Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 3:00:22 PM)

I'm not sure if I already linked this article. Regardless, it was interesting to read more about Kearse after I just talked about him.

https://www.vikings.com/news/monday-morning-mailbag-o-neill-s-development-depth-at-cb-standouts-among-undraft




kgdabom -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 4:45:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Speaking of transcendent players:

#Vikings undrafted rookie running back/fullback Khari Blasingame is a high character, team-first player who could end up being the steal of the UDFA class.

(Andy Carlson on Twitter)

https://twitter.com/i/status/1140705063326953472

I can't listen right now. Does Andy expect him to make the team. I have heard good reports on him before, from people on the internet. Not Vikings fans.




Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 5:42:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Speaking of transcendent players:

#Vikings undrafted rookie running back/fullback Khari Blasingame is a high character, team-first player who could end up being the steal of the UDFA class.

(Andy Carlson on Twitter)

https://twitter.com/i/status/1140705063326953472

I can't listen right now. Does Andy expect him to make the team. I have heard good reports on him before, from people on the internet. Not Vikings fans.


This one is short, KG. (only 51 seconds) Not much to the video, but I am very interested in the player.




Todd M -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 6:27:40 PM)

Blasingame is better than Ploddergame so good luck to him.




Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 6:56:40 PM)

He will have to be a good blocker to get a roster spot, but he could be a transcendent player. You know what we have now with our fullback CJ Ham- if we need a yard he will get us a yard; if we need three yards he will give us a yard.




thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 7:13:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

I said: "Ohio State Offensive Lineman Pat Elflein will be an attractive option early on in the 2017 NFL Draft. He offers positional versatility on the interior and has the functional athleticism to be a valuable part of a protection scheme. Elflein has some lapses with his footwork but overall his functional movement skills and ability to play with strength at the point of attack are assets that are difficult to ignore, particularly in a class that is so top heavy along the offensive interior. Elflein has good recovery balance and an impressive pass set, making him a good fit for the offenses of today's NFL. His punch and hand technique are both strong; he does very well to continue to work after first contact to sustain a favorable grasp on defenders and manipulate the point of attack to produce creases for his running backs. Elflein should be considered a viable plug and play starter on day 1."

I am: Confused. Elflein started bad...and then was good...and now he's back to bad? The #70 pick in 2017, Elflein has been anything but consistent. I'm hoping he's suffering from 'Ryan Kelly' syndrome -- where you are a good player sandwiched between not-good players and it makes you look worse than you are. The offensive line is a delicate balance of chemistry and communication, adding Garrett Bradbury to the mix should help clear the air on exactly who Elflein is in year 3.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/the--big--board--my-highest-prospect-grades-since-2017--part-1-


I guess this guy wasn't aware of Elflein's injury situation end of 2017 into 2018




Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 8:59:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

He will have to be a good blocker to get a roster spot, but he could be a transcendent player. You know what we have now with our fullback CJ Ham- if we need a yard he will get us a yard; if we need three yards he will give us a yard.



Moss was a transcendent player. Lawrence Taylor. Gale Sayers.




Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 9:01:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Speaking of transcendent players:

#Vikings undrafted rookie running back/fullback Khari Blasingame is a high character, team-first player who could end up being the steal of the UDFA class.

(Andy Carlson on Twitter)

https://twitter.com/i/status/1140705063326953472



?




Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/17/2019 9:03:55 PM)

Vikings Mt. Rushmore
Randall McDaniel
Alan Page
Randy Moss
Fran Tarkenton


Honorable mention: Joey Browner (career cut short)




JT2 -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/18/2019 12:05:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Vikings Mt. Rushmore
Randall McDaniel
Alan Page
Randy Moss
Fran Tarkenton


Honorable mention: Joey Browner (career cut short)


I tried really hard to come up with a better one. Couldn't do it.




JT2 -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/18/2019 12:07:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

He will have to be a good blocker to get a roster spot, but he could be a transcendent player. You know what we have now with our fullback CJ Ham- if we need a yard he will get us a yard; if we need three yards he will give us a yard.



Moss was a transcendent player. Lawrence Taylor. Gale Sayers.



Taylor may have been the best defensive player to ever play.




Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (6/18/2019 12:39:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

He will have to be a good blocker to get a roster spot, but he could be a transcendent player. You know what we have now with our fullback CJ Ham- if we need a yard he will get us a yard; if we need three yards he will give us a yard.



Moss was a transcendent player. Lawrence Taylor. Gale Sayers.


I'm not suggesting that he be a player at that level. Maybe transcendent was not the right word, but what I was trying to say was that he could be more than a "niche" player confined to utilizing one narrow strength. Perhaps impact player may be a better choice of words.

Edit: I did find this definition of transcendent, though. It seems to fit.

surpassing the ordinary; exceptional.




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