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Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 5:05:34 PM)

Salary dump

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001071127/article/rams-ship-cb-aqib-talib-fifthrounder-to-dolphins

We've got a lot of picks next year with comps (minus the 5th for a kicker). Would be interesting to know if we ever consider moves like this.



thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 5:31:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

O'Neal blew the "project" idea out of the water.



i don't think i've ever seen a more nimble/athletic tackle with his length...i know he played tight end in college and i think he still looks the part...one of these days in a stacked o-line set with o'neill out wide we'll all get to see him in action - i'm guessing it's going to be inside the two-minute warning - 3rd and goal from the 7 yard line - a playoff game....

I'm a bit surprised we never have used him in that capacity. tackle eligible.



oh, yes - they're saving it for the right time...zimmer has seen it many times - late at night with is head on the pillow....

So ... you’re saying ... Zimmer talks in his sleep?

sorry. just thought i’d beat bigo to the punch. we all know he was going to go there.


I was going to tell him to start using capital letters.



Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 5:42:20 PM)

https://www.skornorth.com/vikings-2/2019/10/vikings-checking-off-all-the-boxes-of-a-modern-offense/

I love the third play design. Triple TE left, one goes in motion, the outside guy does a stunt and into a route pulling the coverage leaving the last TE to be wide open.

And that throw by Cousins on the first one? I think Cousins accuracy is severely underappreciated.



ratoppenheimer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 6:15:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

https://www.skornorth.com/vikings-2/2019/10/vikings-checking-off-all-the-boxes-of-a-modern-offense/

I love the third play design. Triple TE left, one goes in motion, the outside guy does a stunt and into a route pulling the coverage leaving the last TE to be wide open.

And that throw by Cousins on the first one? I think Cousins accuracy is severely underappreciated.



"Tight end Irv Smith has played 272 snaps this season with 70 coming as an outside or slot receiver. Out of fullback CJ Ham’s 195 snaps, he’s been at wide receiver or tight end on 44 of them."



drviking -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 8:33:00 PM)

Mike Hughes was with Kearse

FYI



drviking -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 8:33:28 PM)

At least it wasn't holton hill



thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 9:11:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

Mike Hughes was with Kearse

FYI


So it was Hughes blowing cookies.



thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 9:15:43 PM)

d



Dana Turner -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 9:27:38 PM)

OK, so I’ve had a chance to watch the all 22 of the Washington game and here are my notes. First, those of you that even read my stuff know that I’m a old offensive line coach and I focus more on the line play than anything else. With that said, todays review was focused on Pat Elfline. There has been a lot of hand wringing about this guys play, so I’m trying to really grade him out to see what the coaching staff see’s in him.

The first poor play that Elfline has is at the 7:40 area of the second quarter. It is third and three at the Washington goal line and we call a pass play. Elf gives up a sack, the second sack of the series, the first going to Kline and O’Niel. On the play, Elf gets bull rushed and tries to jump set while under control of the D-Tackle, never a good thing and he gets pushed back in to Cousins. I’d tell him the obvious, he was way too high and needs to drop both his pad level and his ass a bit. There are times it’s just going to happen, moments of mental lapses where you don’t execute your assignment, this was one of them and the result was a field goal. In looking at the play, Washington had great coverage on routes that looked like they wouldn’t have opened up and chances are really good Cousins would have had to throw it away, but maybe not.

The next time the Vikings get the ball for the 2 minute drill, he has a very good series and on the TD run, blows the DT that is head up in him, completely down the line and out of the play. Now I’m not going to go over every good play he has, because that would take too much space, but after watching the tape, I can see why the coaching staff is not giving up on this kid. He plays with very good energy, looks to have a very good blocking relationship with Rieff and moves down field with conviction and effort.

At 10:57 left in the third, Elf allows a pressure but Cousins gets the pass off to Diggs for a good gain down to the five yard line. It looks as though Elf gets off balance to the outside and the D-tackle rips to the inside and beats him with inside pressure, Cousins barely gets the ball away, but again, the results were a 25 yard gain. Not a good play for Elf.
The very next play at 10:50 he gets called for holding after driving his man back in to the endzone. I don’t see the holding, so it ends up being a judgment call, but I don’t see the hold and watched it many times. Two plays later, it’s third and goal from the 9 and he gets called again for a hold, this time a take down of his man and with the penalty declined, we kick a field goal and go up 16-6.

With 5:11 to go in the third, Vikings up 16-9, the Viking start a drive at the 25. Mattison rips off a ten yard run to the left and Elf is called for holding. Again, I watched it many times and this is a very iffy type call. I have not problem calling holding when it is holding, but this call was very borderline, but it’s in the books, so moving on.
On the final long drive of the game, the Vikings run the ball every play and basically run out the clock. There are a couple penalties called, holding on O’Niel that negates a great run by Mattison, but a couple plays later Mattison rips off an equally long run, so it really didn’t matter. Some say Mattison would have had more yards, but really, on the negated run, he got down to the 10, so only the possibility of 10 more yards should they have gone on to score a TD, but he got those yards back on a second and 22 after the holding, so really, he wouldn’t have gained any more than he did, that is a false take on that. Sure, earlier in the game, Elf negates a nice 10 yard run, that is a legitimate bitch.
So, after focusing on only Elf, he had a pretty damn good game. A few mistakes, but his good plays far outpaced his negative plays. If you are willing to go to Skillout.com and watch the all 22 footage you will see what I am talking about. If not, well, perhaps you might be just avoiding having to eat a little crow. This offensive line is playing well right now, sure mistakes are being made and Elf has some of them to atone for, but not enough to bench him, not even close.



Dana Turner -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 9:36:30 PM)

When it comes to Bradbury and even Elf for that matter, these are young guys and they are going to make mistakes. Bradbury was making a ton of mistakes earlier and has done a very good job of learning from those mistakes and is playing better. The same can be said for Elfline, who is also playing a new position to him this year and is getting better. I have also been pissed off when a D-tackle has gone flying by him to get a sack or even worse, a strip sack. Elf is a work in progress, but Rocko has these guys playing pretty damn well together, considering it's an all new blocking scheme and position for Elf, he could be much worse than he is. The negative plays are going to happen against the best O-lines, it is just the nature of the positions, but the improvement over the past four games is noticeable and it's just taking this much time for things to set in and click. This O-line is heading in the right direction, progress is visible and the run game is pretty sweet to watch.



Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 9:41:48 PM)

Great read Dana. I usually watch skillout if I can. I'll take my helping of crow if you're serving it up. I think real time, it's nearly impossible to see much of the line play, unless there's focused replay. Easy to take impressions from the game, and be outspoken, Another aspect for me, is not having as much specific knowledge (or any at all) with regards to oline coaching/play. I played through high school, but WR & CB. But like most things in life, I only slept at a Holiday Inn. The other hard part when evaluating is knowing assignments.

I do remember seeing a play in real time where I commented and thought Elf got away with a hold. What did you see in the 4th down play?

Your assessment aligns with almost exactly with Elf's PFF scores. I don't know if that's an insult or compliment [;)]


Sounds like you still are high on Elf moving forward. What do you think of next year, assuming Elf continues to progress? Think ONeil could transition to the Left, would you endorse it? And for RT do you think we would have to draft or do we have inhouse options (Collins & Udoh). I know it requries a lot of speculation, but that's what we are here for.

Please post more!

EDIT

Elf did play LG in college before moving to Center. Are we not giving him enough credit for the change of position?



marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 9:49:28 PM)

These analyses never consider a 'sway' possibility, that there is an attempt to give one team a better chance at covering the spread, when the article is mentioning a hold or penalty that doesn't appear to really be there.

Were there a similar number of penalties against Washington that didn't appear legitimate ?

Sure, the greatness of Mattison overcame the bogus penalties, but that isn't likely to happen on the road, or in a home game against a team that makes the playoffs this season.



marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 9:52:04 PM)

That might explain Hughes not playing as focused this year, or his allowing himself to be hurt last year, so he could do more drinking and partying.



thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 10:24:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

That might explain Hughes not playing as focused this year, or his allowing himself to be hurt last year, so he could do more drinking and partying.


Always trying to one-up yourself, eh Marty?



Dana Turner -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 10:40:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

These analyses never consider a 'sway' possibility, that there is an attempt to give one team a better chance at covering the spread, when the article is mentioning a hold or penalty that doesn't appear to really be there.

Were there a similar number of penalties against Washington that didn't appear legitimate ?


Not sure about the penalties against Washington, as I mentioned, I was focused only on the Offensive line, particularly Elf so I don't know the answer to this. I do now that the referees are one of the reasons I have started to fade away from the NFL, the inconsistancies are just too wide for my liking.

Sure, the greatness of Mattison overcame the bogus penalties, but that isn't likely to happen on the road, or in a home game against a team that makes the playoffs this season.


You are correct, the holding penalty on O'Niel could have cost us against a much better team, lets hope these guys are learning from these mistakes, really, that's all we can do.



marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 10:42:11 PM)

You have a point Bigo, sometimes too much supporting evidence could be viewed as an overstatement. [&:]



Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/29/2019 11:58:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

https://www.skornorth.com/vikings-2/2019/10/vikings-checking-off-all-the-boxes-of-a-modern-offense/

I love the third play design. Triple TE left, one goes in motion, the outside guy does a stunt and into a route pulling the coverage leaving the last TE to be wide open.

And that throw by Cousins on the first one? I think Cousins accuracy is severely underappreciated.


Good stuff. I don't know what it was about the Bears that stymied our offense, but it seems that the offense is getting better and better. It was a thing of beauty where the Vikings kept the ball until virtually the end of the game vs the Redskins with an 8 or 9 minute drive. I just hope that they can find a way to clean up on all of the holding penalties and the weak spot of pass blocking by the LG. (his run blocking may actually be pretty good)

Edit: These last comments came before I read Dana's post. I will be happy to eat crow if Elflein's play continues to improve. It did seem that he was picked on by the refs with the ticky tack calls. Personally it feels like the referees are getting to be too much a part of the game. I would rather see them let they players play more.



Dana Turner -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/30/2019 12:53:15 AM)

Hey Pager, thanks for the input.

To answer your questions. If you are referring to the failed 4th down QB sneak, it's really hard to call a holding penalty in that situation, as both defensive and offensive guys are holding on for dear life as they try to be the lowest guys on the field. I don't think I have ever seen a holding penalty on that play, but I have seen plenty of holding as the rule apply's.

I really don't know much about PFF or how they grade, I only know that there have been a lot of folks talking about Elfline so I wanted to just see for myself. If I get the time, I will go back and do a more focused review of other games this year, but I have seen him steadily improve as the year has gone, both a credit to him, but even more so, the coaching and line as a whole. We all knew it would take time, many talked about it, we shouldn't be surprised that with good coaching these guys are improving.

As far as next year and O'Neal being able to move to LT. I'd have to see how he moves laterally to his left and his post and kick step to see if there is much difference. Just look at how much better Hill is at LT than RT to know there can be a big challenge for some guys. Hill's footwork is so much better going to his left than right. So perhaps it could work for him, he's very athletic and has proven to be a smart player, he might be able to do it without a fall off or in Hills case, he may have noticeable improvement, wouldn't that be great!

I did know that Elf had familiarity with the LG spot in college, but there is such a big gap from college guard to pro guard, it's so much more about strength and technique. This off season Elf worked his ass off gaining the strength needed to play in the interior of the line. If you have watched him closely, the plays he's been beaten on mostly reflect poor technique. He's had a few plays that he's gotten out muscled, but most of his bad plays are from being out of position or poor technique. If I were a fly on the wall when the coaches are working with him, I'd say 90% of it for him was probably focused on technique.

Bradbury, on the other hand, needs to add strength, lots of it. He's technically sound, not perfect by any measure, but for a rookie, he really has solid technique. Where I see him struggle at times this year is with getting out muscled. His technique might start him in a good position, but a stronger, more savvy veteran may out muscle him and beat him. Early in the season, he had to play against the best DT's he's going to see all year, it's just a learning thing for him now, something he just has to go through. He's learning how to win more than he looses, step one.



Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/30/2019 1:17:52 AM)

#Vikings WR Josh Doctson, on injured reserve the past seven games with a hamstring injury, could return to practice as soon as Wednesday. Doctson said last month he excepts to return to play when he is first eligible, which is Nov. 10 at Dallas.

(Chris Tomasson on Twitter)



Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/30/2019 1:27:08 AM)

I really like this article with lots of video clips. It seems to point out how plays can be quite different from the same formations. Our team used to be so predictable. Now I imagine that opposing defenses have to be quite tentative rather than aggressive. (I thought about saying that defenses have to be defensive. [;)] )

https://zonecoverage.com/2019/vikings/why-kevin-stefanski-might-be-the-nfls-next-great-offensive-coach/



Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/30/2019 5:59:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dana Turner

Hey Pager, thanks for the input.

To answer your questions. If you are referring to the failed 4th down QB sneak, it's really hard to call a holding penalty in that situation, as both defensive and offensive guys are holding on for dear life as they try to be the lowest guys on the field. I don't think I have ever seen a holding penalty on that play, but I have seen plenty of holding as the rule apply's.

I really don't know much about PFF or how they grade, I only know that there have been a lot of folks talking about Elfline so I wanted to just see for myself. If I get the time, I will go back and do a more focused review of other games this year, but I have seen him steadily improve as the year has gone, both a credit to him, but even more so, the coaching and line as a whole. We all knew it would take time, many talked about it, we shouldn't be surprised that with good coaching these guys are improving.

As far as next year and O'Neal being able to move to LT. I'd have to see how he moves laterally to his left and his post and kick step to see if there is much difference. Just look at how much better Hill is at LT than RT to know there can be a big challenge for some guys. Hill's footwork is so much better going to his left than right. So perhaps it could work for him, he's very athletic and has proven to be a smart player, he might be able to do it without a fall off or in Hills case, he may have noticeable improvement, wouldn't that be great!

I did know that Elf had familiarity with the LG spot in college, but there is such a big gap from college guard to pro guard, it's so much more about strength and technique. This off season Elf worked his ass off gaining the strength needed to play in the interior of the line. If you have watched him closely, the plays he's been beaten on mostly reflect poor technique. He's had a few plays that he's gotten out muscled, but most of his bad plays are from being out of position or poor technique. If I were a fly on the wall when the coaches are working with him, I'd say 90% of it for him was probably focused on technique.

Bradbury, on the other hand, needs to add strength, lots of it. He's technically sound, not perfect by any measure, but for a rookie, he really has solid technique. Where I see him struggle at times this year is with getting out muscled. His technique might start him in a good position, but a stronger, more savvy veteran may out muscle him and beat him. Early in the season, he had to play against the best DT's he's going to see all year, it's just a learning thing for him now, something he just has to go through. He's learning how to win more than he looses, step one.



Thanks for the response.

Poor writing skills on my part. The hold I thought I saw was not the 4th down play, and was curious if you saw a separate play where it showed up (I think it was in the redzone). Separately, on the 4th down play, it looked to me (after watching the play from 3 angles and about 20 times) that Elf was trying to double team the NT, but when the NT shot forward low, he couldn't get there.

Early in the season I was seeing both Elf and Bradbury getting beat by swim moves - frequently; more technique than strength. Although Bradbury struggled early with strength and bull rushes.

I think many of us have seen how much better Hill looks on the Left Side. Going back to 2017, when he played for Reiff - there was no drop off. When Remmers kicked to LG - Hill and the whole line struggled. I'd be curious to see if Hill could hold up full-time at LT. Maybe the draft and competition next year is for LT. Then again Hill has been here a long time and is maybe not viewed as an equal replacement.

In any case, I'm optimistic that you're optimistic. I'm very happy with the run blocking, you see 65, 56 and 74 20 yards down the field getting after it. All are athletic enough to get their AND love the hustle. Here's hoping we can see incremental improvement in the pass game and/or Scheme and Cousins (I've thought Cousins has been phenomenal getting the ball accurately off to the right people with people in his face the last four games when there is pressure)) can continue to cover for some mistakes.



Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/30/2019 6:58:42 AM)

#Vikings rankings & stats so far:

* 6-2
* Cousins #2 QB rating & #1 Yds Per Attempt
* Cook #1 Rush yds, #1 Rush TDs
* Thielen #1 Receiving TDs
* Diggs #4 Receiving yds, #5 yds per catch
* Hunter #3 in Sacks
* Harris #3 in Ints
* Offense #3 yds, #7 PPG
* Defense #5 yds, #3 PPG https://t.co/KRLtsnP7qn



Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/30/2019 7:01:24 AM)

Are any of you regretting the choice of Cousins now, or do you all agree that the window of opportunity for a Super Bowl is open with him?



Bill Jandro -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/30/2019 7:45:41 AM)

Good stuff Dana

In regard to the 4th down play

It appeared that Wash sold out on it being a qb sneak. It also appeared like they knew the snap count and crashed in toward Bradbury before either blocker on our left side could get their hands on someone.

Perhaps Cousins needs to change up his cadence more often. Thought we were just going to try a draw them offside and was surprised we actually ran a play there.



Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (10/30/2019 8:12:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

Good stuff Dana

In regard to the 4th down play

It appeared that Wash sold out on it being a qb sneak. It also appeared like they knew the snap count and crashed in toward Bradbury before either blocker on our left side could get their hands on someone.

Perhaps Cousins needs to change up his cadence more often. Thought we were just going to try a draw them offside and was surprised we actually ran a play there.


It seems to me that it would be clever to wait until the last second to snap the ball where the defense might relax just a bit thinking that we were just trying to draw them offside.



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