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thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 10:51:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: Pager NT and IOL definitely will make or break our season. Sucks Pierce opted out - can't blame FO for that. IOL - [X(] [:o] I absolutely agree cant blame FO for Pierce. Dont think anybody has. You mean, other than those who rant about the FO for not addressing the IDL in the offseason, like me. I mean, who doesn't replace an exiting player without bringing in AT LEAST 2 probowl caliber players to replace them?

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 11:04:08 AM)
Here's an NFC North podcast preview by a couple of clowns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=323&v=2Y9nn7BZFAQ&feature=emb_logo

unome -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 11:11:35 AM)
The IOL is tricky because we DID put assets into the line, they just have not panned out. First round pick at Center. Traded up in the Third to get the starting Right Guard. Traded up in the Fourth for another Guard (Samia). Had the latest Second Rounder playing there this camp. And IOL are the kinds of players that you should be able to get in the third and fourth rounds. Or even later. We have spent assets on the IOL, but we have failed to get solid results, at least so far, from almost all of the players. Something seems broken RE how we either assess or coach the O-line. Maybe both.

kgdabom -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 11:17:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: unome The IOL is tricky because we DID put assets into the line, they just have not panned out. First round pick at Center. Traded up in the Third to get the starting Right Guard. Traded up in the Fourth for another Guard (Samia). Had the latest Second Rounder playing there this camp. And IOL are the kinds of players that you should be able to get in the third and fourth rounds. Or even later. We have spent assets on the IOL, but we have failed to get solid results, at least so far, from almost all of the players. Something seems broken RE how we either assess or coach the O-line. Maybe both. Bradbury got off to a very bad start last year, but improved quite a bit as the year progressed. Supposedly he is greatly improved this camp. We will see when the actual games are played. Cuts are due by tomorrow right? How many of the 15 draft picks will still be with us by the time we set the practice squad?

Guest -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 11:43:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: unome The IOL is tricky because we DID put assets into the line, they just have not panned out. First round pick at Center. Traded up in the Third to get the starting Right Guard. Traded up in the Fourth for another Guard (Samia). Had the latest Second Rounder playing there this camp. And IOL are the kinds of players that you should be able to get in the third and fourth rounds. Or even later. We have spent assets on the IOL, but we have failed to get solid results, at least so far, from almost all of the players. Something seems broken RE how we either assess or coach the O-line. Maybe both. I hear what you’re saying, however the proof is kind of in the pudding at least for this off-season. Any plan that included moving Elflein to starting RG, and his backup to take over his LG spot for the opening game vs GB is a massive failure. Hopefully Oli Udoh, And Dru Samia (looking like a complete disaster at this point) somehow turn it on quickly. Perhaps Cleveland matures this year and beats out Reiff who I’m sure is trending out of the FO’s plans, but right now I have huge questions going up against the Puckers pass rush. Feels like we got worse duRing the off-season. Hell I would’ve kept Kline, and gone after another FA IOLineman if I felt our young guys weren’t improving. Now Covid19 could’ve had something to do with our lack of movement at this grouping, but it’s a huge concern for me going forward.. Hope I’m wrong.

ratoppenheimer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 11:46:14 AM)
. . Chris Tomasson@christomasson DE Yannick Ngakoue says "everybody can get sacks" and "it's easy" but says that he's able to force fumbles, which sets him aside he believes. Sean Borman@SeanBormanNFL #Vikings DE Yannick Ngakoue: “I could tell this was a special place back when we had the joint practice [in ‘18]. Just the way everything was ran and Coach Zim does a great job of taking care of everybody... I just appreciate Minnesota so much for having faith in me.” Chris Tomasson@christomasson DE Yannick Ngakoue says there's "only one 91 who can do what I do.'' He wouldn't say how much he paid Jalyn Holmes for that number but said "not too much.'' .

unome -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 12:01:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kurt bilben quote: ORIGINAL: unome The IOL is tricky because we DID put assets into the line, they just have not panned out. First round pick at Center. Traded up in the Third to get the starting Right Guard. Traded up in the Fourth for another Guard (Samia). Had the latest Second Rounder playing there this camp. And IOL are the kinds of players that you should be able to get in the third and fourth rounds. Or even later. We have spent assets on the IOL, but we have failed to get solid results, at least so far, from almost all of the players. Something seems broken RE how we either assess or coach the O-line. Maybe both. I hear what you’re saying, however the proof is kind of in the pudding at least for this off-season. Any plan that included moving Elflein to starting RG, and his backup to take over his LG spot for the opening game vs GB is a massive failure. Hopefully Oli Udoh, And Dru Samia (looking like a complete disaster at this point) somehow turn it on quickly. Perhaps Cleveland matures this year and beats out Reiff who I’m sure is trending out of the FO’s plans, but right now I have huge questions going up against the Puckers pass rush. Feels like we got worse duRing the off-season. Hell I would’ve kept Kline, and gone after another FA IOLineman if I felt our young guys weren’t improving. Now Covid19 could’ve had something to do with our lack of movement at this grouping, but it’s a huge concern for me going forward.. Hope I’m wrong. It seems that they had a big belief in some of the youngsters progressing. Samia, Udoh, maybe Collins. And, like pretty much everyone, cutting Kline seemed crazy at the time. Full disclosure: now that he has not found another team, it looks less unwise. But defending the Kline cut may be easier now, but why not pick up another FA Guard of a starter level? Were there really no one good enough available that fit our scheme? That seems unlikely. If we were using this as a rebuilding year, I guess their choices would be defensible, but we made the playoffs last year and the Yannick moves says that we are trying to win this year. I don't know. I don't get it.

Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 12:43:09 PM)
Yannick Ngakoue on taking a near $6 million pay cut to join the Vikings: “Money was never my drive coming into this business. It has never been my drive. I’ve always wanted to be a great-caliber guy, great-quality guy, on and off the field. I just needed a fresh start, and Minnesota was [the team] that gave me the opportunity to continue to live out my dream. I’m appreciative and excited.” (Courtney Cronin on Twitter) I'm going to say that Ngakoue has to be already one of my favorite Vikings right now. https://www.vikings.com/video/ngakoue-on-joining-the-vikings-this-is-a-special-place

thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 1:02:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson Yannick Ngakoue on taking a near $6 million pay cut to join the Vikings: “Money was never my drive coming into this business. It has never been my drive. I’ve always wanted to be a great-caliber guy, great-quality guy, on and off the field. I just needed a fresh start, and Minnesota was [the team] that gave me the opportunity to continue to live out my dream. I’m appreciative and excited.” (Courtney Cronin on Twitter) I'm going to say that Ngakoue has to be already one of my favorite Vikings right now. I heard ALSO that since a contract was worked out for this year, that IF we were to franchise him next year, he would not get the 20% franchise tagged 2 years in a row bump.

Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 1:06:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: Pager NT and IOL definitely will make or break our season. Sucks Pierce opted out - can't blame FO for that. IOL - [X(] [:o] I absolutely agree cant blame FO for Pierce. Dont think anybody has. Stephen / Watt / etc are a big leap of faith to improve the group over last year which was b as barely okay by our standards (until the 49ers). Johnson and Jefferson are imo are a big leap of faith to attack defenses play in and play out. I really hope my low expectations are annihlated by good play early in the season. My point is that I don't think IDL was a offseason question mark after we signed Pierce. We had a guy in Watts that showed great promise. And in-house options including rotating Ifeadi in, maatafa, the rookie, and JJ. Say what you will about JJ, at times he has flashed. He looked very good against Dallas with Joseph out. Helped shut down the vaunted Dallas oline and rushing attack. I have faith that Patterson was going to get that 3T spot figured out. Pierce caused a huge domino effect. Some are worried about the WR situation with Diggs being traded. I understand it - share some of it. Even before we drafted Jefferson, I thought Smith, a healthy Thielan would mitigate some of the loss. Bisi, while not spectacular, helped last year when Thielan couldn't go. If you believe Cousins and the staff, he looks better. Jefferson - as a rookie we'll see, it does sounds like his game/production is translating. But I'll need to see it. I think we are deeper as a WR team. Beebe might not make the team and he was the "starting" slot last year. But with the IOL and run defense/interior pressure, I've definitely moderated my expectations for the season.

Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 1:09:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thebigo quote: ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson Yannick Ngakoue on taking a near $6 million pay cut to join the Vikings: “Money was never my drive coming into this business. It has never been my drive. I’ve always wanted to be a great-caliber guy, great-quality guy, on and off the field. I just needed a fresh start, and Minnesota was [the team] that gave me the opportunity to continue to live out my dream. I’m appreciative and excited.” (Courtney Cronin on Twitter) I'm going to say that Ngakoue has to be already one of my favorite Vikings right now. I heard ALSO that since a contract was worked out for this year, that IF we were to franchise him next year, he would not get the 20% franchise tagged 2 years in a row bump. They might have a verbal agreement on a contract and/or not tagging but the restructure does not prevent/restrict it like Clowney's did. Vikes can tag him again and it would be 20% higher than 12M (14.4M).

unome -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 1:17:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pager They might have a verbal agreement on a contract and/or not tagging but the restructure does not prevent/restrict it like Clowney's did. Vikes can tag him again and it would be 20% higher than 12M (14.4M). I am pretty sure that is not how it works: "An exclusive franchise tag means a team will pay that player no less than the average of the top five salaries at the player's position, or 120 percent of the player's previous salary, whichever is greater. " https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS806US806&ei=4HdSX4n1JMX29APllp7IDA&q=how+does+the+franchise+tag+work&oq=how+does+the+franchise+tag&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQARgAMgIIADICCAAyBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjoECAAQQzoECC4QQzoFCAAQkQI6CwguELEDEMcBEKMCOggIABCxAxCDAToICC4QxwEQowI6BQgAELEDOgIILjoECAAQCjoICAAQFhAKEB5Q7P_EAVjWrMUBYKDBxQFoAXAAeACAAfQCiAGUPZIBBzItMTYuMTCYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6wAEB&sclient=psy-ab

kgdabom -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 1:21:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer . . Chris Tomasson@christomasson DE Yannick Ngakoue says "everybody can get sacks" and "it's easy" but says that he's able to force fumbles, which sets him aside he believes. Sean Borman@SeanBormanNFL #Vikings DE Yannick Ngakoue: “I could tell this was a special place back when we had the joint practice [in ‘18]. Just the way everything was ran and Coach Zim does a great job of taking care of everybody... I just appreciate Minnesota so much for having faith in me.” Chris Tomasson@christomasson DE Yannick Ngakoue says there's "only one 91 who can do what I do.'' He wouldn't say how much he paid Jalyn Holmes for that number but said "not too much.'' . This gives me the warm fuzzies for both Yannick and Jalyn. [:D]

kgdabom -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 1:23:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson Yannick Ngakoue on taking a near $6 million pay cut to join the Vikings: “Money was never my drive coming into this business. It has never been my drive. I’ve always wanted to be a great-caliber guy, great-quality guy, on and off the field. I just needed a fresh start, and Minnesota was [the team] that gave me the opportunity to continue to live out my dream. I’m appreciative and excited.” (Courtney Cronin on Twitter) I'm going to say that Ngakoue has to be already one of my favorite Vikings right now. https://www.vikings.com/video/ngakoue-on-joining-the-vikings-this-is-a-special-place That kind of talk goes a long way toward making me like him. I'll like him more with double digit sacks and 6 forced fumbles. [:D]

Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 1:24:09 PM)
WR. One can question whether they should have traded Diggs, but drafting Jefferson, signing an improving Sharpe, expecting more from Smith Jr, and emphasizing rushing combine to help alleviate losing Diggs. IDL. After they signed Pierce, I was ok with the rotating mass of humanity that would start next to Pierce. His opting out put us in a bind. They traded for a fatty, but he failed his physical. The IDT is more about Pierce opting out than not having a plan, for this offseason at least. IOL. I wonder if they seriously miscalculated thinking one or more players would step up in year two, which Zimmer referenced. As cheap Red McCombs said "Sometimes you gotta coach 'em up!". I'd say half the 'blame' is poor planning, a quarter potentially being less than stellar coaching, and a quarter being the virus which shortened coaching and practices. Of the three positions, IOL is the one I would point fingers at being the most mismanaged. But we are also talking about LG, C, and RG. If Bradbury shows improvement, that's still both G spots whereas with WR and DT (with Pierce) we are talking one spot.

Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 1:24:37 PM)
And we also were up against the cap much of the offseason. Stepping back, once we extended Rhodes, Harrison, Hunter, etc and signed Cousins it was generally acknowledged that would offer no cap flexibility. We wouldn't be able to sign everyone else after that AND we would need the backups to move up and start. WHO HAS STEPPED UP? At CB, we see Hill move up. How well he plays is another matter. The rest of the holes were filled courtesy of high draft picks, not anyone stepping up. TE. Nobody stepped up. We had to draft Smith to get a talent influx. LB. Nobody has cemented themselves as a starter next to Hendricks and Barr. DL. Since Hunter's extension, nobody has stepped up. We traded for another good DE. IOL. All three spots are huge questionmarks. Nobody has stepped up and become a viable starter.

Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 1:28:20 PM)
Yannick Ngakoue on playing with Danielle Hunter: "We want to become the best of the best. We want to be elite. When they talk about edge rushers, you want them to talk about Danielle and Yannick." (Vikings Corner on Twitter)

Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 1:40:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson Yannick Ngakoue on playing with Danielle Hunter: "We want to become the best of the best. We want to be elite. When they talk about edge rushers, you want them to talk about Danielle and Yannick." (Vikings Corner on Twitter) No, I want a Super Bowl win. And I see he didn't even mention stopping the run. You know, being a complete DE. That kind of "elite".

Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 1:40:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: unome quote: ORIGINAL: kurt bilben quote: ORIGINAL: unome The IOL is tricky because we DID put assets into the line, they just have not panned out. First round pick at Center. Traded up in the Third to get the starting Right Guard. Traded up in the Fourth for another Guard (Samia). Had the latest Second Rounder playing there this camp. And IOL are the kinds of players that you should be able to get in the third and fourth rounds. Or even later. We have spent assets on the IOL, but we have failed to get solid results, at least so far, from almost all of the players. Something seems broken RE how we either assess or coach the O-line. Maybe both. I hear what you’re saying, however the proof is kind of in the pudding at least for this off-season. Any plan that included moving Elflein to starting RG, and his backup to take over his LG spot for the opening game vs GB is a massive failure. Hopefully Oli Udoh, And Dru Samia (looking like a complete disaster at this point) somehow turn it on quickly. Perhaps Cleveland matures this year and beats out Reiff who I’m sure is trending out of the FO’s plans, but right now I have huge questions going up against the Puckers pass rush. Feels like we got worse duRing the off-season. Hell I would’ve kept Kline, and gone after another FA IOLineman if I felt our young guys weren’t improving. Now Covid19 could’ve had something to do with our lack of movement at this grouping, but it’s a huge concern for me going forward.. Hope I’m wrong. It seems that they had a big belief in some of the youngsters progressing. Samia, Udoh, maybe Collins. And, like pretty much everyone, cutting Kline seemed crazy at the time. Full disclosure: now that he has not found another team, it looks less unwise. But defending the Kline cut may be easier now, but why not pick up another FA Guard of a starter level? Were there really no one good enough available that fit our scheme? That seems unlikely. If we were using this as a rebuilding year, I guess their choices would be defensible, but we made the playoffs last year and the Yannick moves says that we are trying to win this year. I don't know. I don't get it. It's not you, it's the team that doesn't get it. Our strategy has been, as Childress or more importantly Immortan Joe would say, "Mediocre"! Draft one player in the first 4 rds, make some wild stabs in the later rounds, pick up a middling vet or two, and allow Cousins start another prayer group. Beavers Elflein Isidora O'Neill Gossett Bradbury Samia Udoh Cleveland Brandel Hinton 'has' (not the plural 'have' because that is one big amorphous blob of OL talent) produced one good starter (so far) in O'Neill and below average overall OL play. Our last game was freakin' abysmal how could we not be panicking and selling out for OL help? Sure, hopefully Bradbury makes a big leap this year and is average or better, and Cleveland / one of the late round stabs will end up being more than just depth – but only a true homer thinks that's a given. After the volcanic free agency eruption of Reiff and Remmers in 2017, we have augmented our draft strategy with Josh Andrews, Tom Compton, Bryan Witzmann, Josh Kline, Brett Jones, Dakota Dozier. I wonder if Hall had passed his physical, if we still would have signed Ngakoue ... probably. Our 'dire' cap situation seems only to be dire in relation to helping the OL, not the rest of the team and especially not the defense.

Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 1:45:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen WR. One can question whether they should have traded Diggs, but drafting Jefferson, signing an improving Sharpe, expecting more from Smith Jr, and emphasizing rushing combine to help alleviate losing Diggs. IDL. After they signed Pierce, I was ok with the rotating mass of humanity that would start next to Pierce. His opting out put us in a bind. They traded for a fatty, but he failed his physical. The IDT is more about Pierce opting out than not having a plan, for this offseason at least. IOL. I wonder if they seriously miscalculated thinking one or more players would step up in year two, which Zimmer referenced. As cheap Red McCombs said "Sometimes you gotta coach 'em up!". I'd say half the 'blame' is poor planning, a quarter potentially being less than stellar coaching, and a quarter being the virus which shortened coaching and practices. Of the three positions, IOL is the one I would point fingers at being the most mismanaged. But we are also talking about LG, C, and RG. If Bradbury shows improvement, that's still both G spots whereas with WR and DT (with Pierce) we are talking one spot. Spot on. If Diggs wanted out, FO did a good job. Great point on trading for a fatty after Pierce opted out. IOL - poor planning might be higher. Cutting Kline to save 1.5M PRIOR to camp and moving Elf (and giving him the job - not even allowing Udoh a chance to compete) alone is gross negligence. LG seems to be lack of development. Collins/Ezra had opps to sieze the job. Covid probably played a role. The Packers have said the OL competition will continue throughout the year. We can only hope this occurs here. I know there is something to be said for continuity but FFS if Elf and Dozier are like Compton & Remmers and we do nothing but trott em out, I will lose a ton of faith in Dennison/Kubiak/Zimmer.

Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 1:51:17 PM)
I thought there were also concussion issues with Kline. Almost like the team wanted to back away because he was getting more of them, or they were closer together or something like that. Edit: He was ruled out of games 4, 10, and 11 in 2019 due to concussion protocol.

Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 2:04:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen I thought there were also concussion issues with Kline. Almost like the team wanted to back away because he was getting more of them, or they were closer together or something like that. Edit: He was ruled out of games 4, 10, and 11 in 2019 due to concussion protocol. They cut him in March. I'm not saying it was the wrong move - just the timing of it. Concussion symptoms can improve over time. If was health - isn't there usually a settlement option?

Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 2:23:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pager quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen I thought there were also concussion issues with Kline. Almost like the team wanted to back away because he was getting more of them, or they were closer together or something like that. Edit: He was ruled out of games 4, 10, and 11 in 2019 due to concussion protocol. They cut him in March. I'm not saying it was the wrong move - just the timing of it. Concussion symptoms can improve over time. If was health - isn't there usually a settlement option? I know when they cut him. Point is, they may have shied away due to his concussions. Don't know about injury settlement stuff, that maybe would be admitting to culpability.

ratoppenheimer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 2:45:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer . . Chris Tomasson@christomasson DE Yannick Ngakoue says "everybody can get sacks" and "it's easy" but says that he's able to force fumbles, which sets him aside he believes. Sean Borman@SeanBormanNFL #Vikings DE Yannick Ngakoue: “I could tell this was a special place back when we had the joint practice [in ‘18]. Just the way everything was ran and Coach Zim does a great job of taking care of everybody... I just appreciate Minnesota so much for having faith in me.” Chris Tomasson@christomasson DE Yannick Ngakoue says there's "only one 91 who can do what I do.'' He wouldn't say how much he paid Jalyn Holmes for that number but said "not too much.'' . This gives me the warm fuzzies for both Yannick and Jalyn. [:D] funny, but weatherly was #91 for the last four seasons - holmes was #92 last year...i wonder just how attached to that number he was....

unome -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/4/2020 3:35:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes Our strategy has been, as Childress or more importantly Immortan Joe would say, "Mediocre"! Draft one player in the first 4 rds, make some wild stabs in the later rounds, pick up a middling vet or two, and allow Cousins start another prayer group. Beavers Elflein Isidora O'Neill Gossett Bradbury Samia Udoh Cleveland Brandel Hinton 'has' (not the plural 'have' because that is one big amorphous blob of OL talent) produced one good starter (so far) in O'Neill and below average overall OL play. Our last game was freakin' abysmal how could we not be panicking and selling out for OL help? Sure, hopefully Bradbury makes a big leap this year and is average or better, and Cleveland / one of the late round stabs will end up being more than just depth – but only a true homer thinks that's a given. After the volcanic free agency eruption of Reiff and Remmers in 2017, we have augmented our draft strategy with Josh Andrews, Tom Compton, Bryan Witzmann, Josh Kline, Brett Jones, Dakota Dozier. I wonder if Hall had passed his physical, if we still would have signed Ngakoue ... probably. Our 'dire' cap situation seems only to be dire in relation to helping the OL, not the rest of the team and especially not the defense. Great post,. I LOLed at the bolded. "Beavers Elflein Isidora O'Neill Gossett Bradbury Samia Udoh Cleveland Brandel Hinton". Going back further and you have the likes of Clemmings and Yankey as well. We have one excellent player from that list, a few who have already busted out and a bunch of question marks, We need to get 4 good-to-great starters from that list. There are three starters on the list, but only one has yet qualified under the "good-to-great' part.

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