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marty -> RE: NFL News (12/18/2008 9:30:02 PM)

In fact, there was a LOT of talk on these boards last offseason about dreaming of getting Faneca.  We all think VERY highly of him obviously.

I also thought a lot of Faneca.  But I think had Pennington stayed and the Jets won 3 games, we would NOT be talking about how great Faneca is.  It is BECAUSE of their success that he is being talked about.  

Favre is just not that big of a part of the Jets' success.  It's all about their OL.

I TOTALLY disagree.  I think FAVRE is the BIGGEST reason for their success.  He played superbly at NE and at Tennessee.  IF he plays like that in the playoffs, they might go farther than people think, despite their weak 2ndary. 




marty -> RE: NFL News (12/18/2008 9:32:11 PM)

I forgot about Atlanta, THEY are the biggest surprise to me.  I thought they might have 2 wins, and Detroit about 3 at the end of the year.   




David Levine -> RE: NFL News (12/18/2008 9:35:53 PM)

Cleveland doesn't surprise me.

Talented skill position players, but Anderson was exposed as a fraud last year.

The only chance they had was if Quinn quickly became a stud, but he got hurt before he could barely play.




Guest -> RE: NFL News (12/18/2008 10:25:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

That's true actually on Miami.  They obviously are a HUGE shocker.

Atlanta as well, to do what they're doing this fast, especially Ryan.

I wasn't that surprised by any of the others.  Though I still think the Giants aren't that great.  I did think Houston would take another step forward.

*******************************
I think Atlanta is overrated, but yes, I'm impressed what they have done with a rookie coach and a rookie QB.  Goes to show you that in this NFL, there is no grace period to rebuild.  Do it now. 

As I'm sure you know, if the Falcons would have hired Favre as head coach, they would be undefeated.




Guest -> RE: NFL News (12/18/2008 10:44:31 PM)

I like Dungy, but pimping his QB for MVP in his post game press conference doesn't fit with the image he has.

I think AD, as of now, is the MVP, but I would hate it if Chilly started pimping him for the award. 

The classy Dungy just proved that he is human.  Don't pimp your individual players for an award when you're trying to lead your TEAM to another championship.




Guest -> RE: NFL News (12/18/2008 10:54:04 PM)

On a personal level, I'm not a big fan of the Manning's (all 3 of 'em) but is there any question that Peyton Manning isn't one of the best QB's you ever saw play?   Of course he's not as good as Favre, but who is?




John Childress -> RE: NFL News (12/18/2008 11:18:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete C

On a personal level, I'm not a big fan of the Manning's (all 3 of 'em) but is there any question that Peyton Manning isn't one of the best QB's you ever saw play?   Of course he's not as good as Favre, but who is?


You could even say he has taken his game to another level this year.

I don't like him one bit but man!

If Peterson leads us to victory the last 2 weeks he has to win.




Guest -> RE: NFL News (12/18/2008 11:33:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Childress

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete C

On a personal level, I'm not a big fan of the Manning's (all 3 of 'em) but is there any question that Peyton Manning isn't one of the best QB's you ever saw play?   Of course he's not as good as Favre, but who is?


You could even say he has taken his game to another level this year.

I don't like him one bit but man!

If Peterson leads us to victory the last 2 weeks he has to win.

******************************
P.Manning is one of those guys I do not like, but I sure like watching him play.  Kinda' like Sweetness, I obviously hated the Bears, but how could you not appreciate someone who had mastered the game like he did?

People talk about there not being many good QB's in the league, but look at the ones that are good.  Marino was great in his day but was he as good as Manning or Brady?  Montana is timeless, IMO, but todays great QB's are pretty amazing to watch. 

Manning put on a clinic tonight and if I were a young QB, I'd be watching everything he does.  Hell, that's how I learned to play basketball, I watched Andrew Toney.  His first step I couldn't match, but my perimeter game was close.




drviking -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 1:45:11 AM)

i thought the fall of the browns was easy to see

lots of injuries for the seahawks, and this was probably their last year before going into rebuilding mode




John Childress -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 7:08:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete C

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Childress

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete C

On a personal level, I'm not a big fan of the Manning's (all 3 of 'em) but is there any question that Peyton Manning isn't one of the best QB's you ever saw play?   Of course he's not as good as Favre, but who is?


You could even say he has taken his game to another level this year.

I don't like him one bit but man!

If Peterson leads us to victory the last 2 weeks he has to win.

******************************
P.Manning is one of those guys I do not like, but I sure like watching him play.  Kinda' like Sweetness, I obviously hated the Bears, but how could you not appreciate someone who had mastered the game like he did?

People talk about there not being many good QB's in the league, but look at the ones that are good.  Marino was great in his day but was he as good as Manning or Brady?  Montana is timeless, IMO, but todays great QB's are pretty amazing to watch. 

Manning put on a clinic tonight and if I were a young QB, I'd be watching everything he does.  Hell, that's how I learned to play basketball, I watched Andrew Toney.  His first step I couldn't match, but my perimeter game was close.


I always thought Marino was overrated.  Yes, he had a cannon arm and lightning quick release.  He also put up great numbers.  But I think his poor attitude yelling at his players hurt him and his team in tight situations.  I see Warner as a poor man's Marino but who played on a team with superior talent and was able to get over the hump once.

The one reason I elevate Montana over Manning is the way Joe elevated his game in the playoffs.  Montana's rating went up in the playoffs while Peyton's falls 10 full points.  I thought Brady had a chance to eclipse Montana but he really sucked last Super Bowl and I honestly believe it was ego.  He appeared to me to purposely go away from Moss until he thought he might lose the game.  Montana never did that; he knew where his bread was buttered.

I just heard that Dungy just set a NFL record by being the first coach to make the playoffs 10 straight years - good job!




Trekgeekscott -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 7:33:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I was NOT surprised by Jax falling off this year.  I think they were a bit of a fluke last year, added nothing in FA, and I still think Del Rio is like Tice.  A nice guy with lunch bucket toughness,  but will probably be outfoxed in a playoff game. 

I was more surprised by the falls of Cleveland and Seattle, the continued success of the Giants, and the rise of Miami and Arizona, and I thought Buffalo and Houston might be a little better. 


Marty...first, I'm done talking about Favre with you...we obviously are not going to agree. 

Second.  I thought Jax had no passing game.  And Garard didn't impress me that much.  So I wasn't too surprised by Jax falling off.

I am NOT surprised by the fall of Cleveland at all.  I thought last year was a fluke.  Derek Anderson had half a good year.  The rest was smoke and mirrors.  Seattle is a little surprising...but their WRs have been dropping like flies all year.  Throw in a lame duck coach in a weak division expecting to just beat up on his division and get to the playoffs...and voila!  You have sucktitude.

I am most surprised by the success of Miami (though some of that is some and mirrors too...with a different name "wildcat").  Also Atlanta.  They both came out of nowhere to contend for division titles and playoff spots.  They had the first and third picks this year in the draft.  That's amazing.

Anyone who is surprised by Detroit shouldn't be.  I had the firm belief that they couldn't begin to get out of the hell they are in until they rid themselves of Matt "Golly I sure like drafting WRs in the first round" Millen.  They finally did that...but it will take YEARS for ANYONE to turn that organization around. 




Trekgeekscott -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 7:40:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Childress

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete C

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Childress

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete C

On a personal level, I'm not a big fan of the Manning's (all 3 of 'em) but is there any question that Peyton Manning isn't one of the best QB's you ever saw play?   Of course he's not as good as Favre, but who is?


You could even say he has taken his game to another level this year.

I don't like him one bit but man!

If Peterson leads us to victory the last 2 weeks he has to win.

******************************
P.Manning is one of those guys I do not like, but I sure like watching him play.  Kinda' like Sweetness, I obviously hated the Bears, but how could you not appreciate someone who had mastered the game like he did?

People talk about there not being many good QB's in the league, but look at the ones that are good.  Marino was great in his day but was he as good as Manning or Brady?  Montana is timeless, IMO, but todays great QB's are pretty amazing to watch. 

Manning put on a clinic tonight and if I were a young QB, I'd be watching everything he does.  Hell, that's how I learned to play basketball, I watched Andrew Toney.  His first step I couldn't match, but my perimeter game was close.


I always thought Marino was overrated.  Yes, he had a cannon arm and lightning quick release.  He also put up great numbers.  But I think his poor attitude yelling at his players hurt him and his team in tight situations.  I see Warner as a poor man's Marino but who played on a team with superior talent and was able to get over the hump once.

The one reason I elevate Montana over Manning is the way Joe elevated his game in the playoffs.  Montana's rating went up in the playoffs while Peyton's falls 10 full points.  I thought Brady had a chance to eclipse Montana but he really sucked last Super Bowl and I honestly believe it was ego.  He appeared to me to purposely go away from Moss until he thought he might lose the game.  Montana never did that; he knew where his bread was buttered.

I just heard that Dungy just set a NFL record by being the first coach to make the playoffs 10 straight years - good job!


Honestly I don't think Don Shula knew what to do with Marino.  He won superbowls with a stingy defense and power running game.  Marino could chuck it with the best of them...I don't think they designed the best offense for his skills, that's scary because of the numbers he put up despite that.  They NEVER had a good running back while he played.  NEVER.  He could have had a number of titles.

Montana was what a QB really needed to be....SMART.  I look at the guys they draft these days, all athletic ability...very little smarts...that explains why the Pats can draft a guy in the 6th round and he becomes the next Montana.  Brady is smart...not terribly athletic.  I think the best QBs in history are not buffoons...Manning, very smart, Montana, genius, Brady, brilliant. 

To me the most important thing a QB can have is a good head on his shoulders...not a cannon arm, not lightning fast running ability...a BRAIN!!




John Childress -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 8:05:22 AM)

I don't think Marino had the best mentality to be great in the clutch.  He was too high strung.  I actually think Peyton had a little too much ego also and that has hurt him at times.  I think a lot of his histronics are more of a distraction than a help.  He gets too emotional in playoff games though he has gotten better.

Another thing Montana and Brady had in common was both were real cool under pressure.  I think that is why they are better than Manning and Marino in the clutch.




Trekgeekscott -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 9:03:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Childress

I don't think Marino had the best mentality to be great in the clutch.  He was too high strung.  I actually think Peyton had a little too much ego also and that has hurt him at times.  I think a lot of his histronics are more of a distraction than a help.  He gets too emotional in playoff games though he has gotten better.

Another thing Montana and Brady had in common was both were real cool under pressure.  I think that is why they are better than Manning and Marino in the clutch.


And that is trait number 2 to me.




Easy E -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 9:10:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Not true, Marty.

In fact, there was a LOT of talk on these boards last offseason about dreaming of getting Faneca.  We all think VERY highly of him obviously.

Favre is just not that big of a part of the Jets' success.  It's all about their OL.


You did talk about it a lot, that's true. [;)]

There was .00001 chance that the Vikes were going to move Hutchinson to RG to make room for Faneca though.

It always happens when you take an opposing side, but I'm not saying Favre is the only reason for their success. I just think this "he has very little to do with it" is utterly ridiculous and revisionist history. No one, including you, was talking about the Jets making the playoffs because of all this "star" talent they added. And really, they didn't. They added one great guard. Well, we have Hutchinson, and we hadn't been to the playoffs. They added Kris Jenkins, who was washed up, and frankly has faded lately. Well, we have 2 guys better than him and still missed the playoffs. And they have average at best skill positions. Thomas Jones is ok, but not tops, Coles and Cotchery, same thing.

People come across as simply Favre haters when you try to give him zero credits. That said, I hope he lays an egg the last two games and you all can make me eat crow.




Trekgeekscott -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 9:18:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Not true, Marty.

In fact, there was a LOT of talk on these boards last offseason about dreaming of getting Faneca.  We all think VERY highly of him obviously.

Favre is just not that big of a part of the Jets' success.  It's all about their OL.


You did talk about it a lot, that's true. [;)]

There was .00001 chance that the Vikes were going to move Hutchinson to RG to make room for Faneca though.

It always happens when you take an opposing side, but I'm not saying Favre is the only reason for their success. I just think this "he has very little to do with it" is utterly ridiculous and revisionist history. No one, including you, was talking about the Jets making the playoffs because of all this "star" talent they added. And really, they didn't. They added one great guard. Well, we have Hutchinson, and we hadn't been to the playoffs. They added Kris Jenkins, who was washed up, and frankly has faded lately. Well, we have 2 guys better than him and still missed the playoffs. And they have average at best skill positions. Thomas Jones is ok, but not tops, Coles and Cotchery, same thing.

People come across as simply Favre haters when you try to give him zero credits. That said, I hope he lays an egg the last two games and you all can make me eat crow.


Who's giving Favre zero credit?  I do give him some...but I maintain, he isn't the biggest reason the Jets have improved and the Packers have regressed.  It's just a coincidence. 

The problem in Packerville isn't the QB.  Rodgers has played well.  Better than I expected or hoped (of course, I hoped he would suck).  The problem there hasn't been the lack of his holiness the Brett. 

Favre has worse stats than Rodgers but he's being hailed as the savior of Jetsland.  It's preposterous.




djskillz -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 9:19:43 AM)

Actually, I think a few of us were saying they'd be MUCH improved.  Specifically because of their OL play. 

I know I was touting the Faneca addition as well as expected improvement from Mangold and Ferguson, and I seriously doubt I was alone.

Pete, you're killin' me with the Favre stuff, man.  [&:][&:][&:]




Easy E -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 9:20:26 AM)

Right, I know, the biggest reason is Alan Faneca. It could have been any QB and they'd have made the playoffs.




djskillz -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 9:23:05 AM)

Didn't say that.

But I don't think Favre is really any better than Pennington or Clemens.

Like I said, maybe a game or 2 difference, but that'd be the max IMO.




Trekgeekscott -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 9:23:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

Right, I know, the biggest reason is Alan Faneca. It could have been any QB and they'd have made the playoffs.


If they would have kept Pennington, they would have IMHO, with one caveat...If Tom Brady doesn't get hurt...the Jets don't make the playoffs no matter who is at QB.




Easy E -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 9:30:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

Right, I know, the biggest reason is Alan Faneca. It could have been any QB and they'd have made the playoffs.


If they would have kept Pennington, they would have IMHO, with one caveat...If Tom Brady doesn't get hurt...the Jets don't make the playoffs no matter who is at QB.


Right, I got it. The same pathetic offense that had Pennington and Clemons last year, with the same receivers, same running back, adding no one but Alan Faneca would go from a horrible ranked offense and winning four games to being one of the top scoring offenses and winning at least 9 games (splitting with the Patriots).

It isn't that I don't understand the argument, I just feel that it comes from a place of illogical Favre hatred. But, as you've stated with Marty, it's probably pointless to keep talking about it. In this scenario, it makes no difference if the Jets lose the next 2 games and sit out the playoffs, or go on to win it. Favre will not be a factor either way.

We should 100% absolutely, positively sign Alan Faneca even if he costs $100 million dollars. We would win at a minimum 3 rings.




Trekgeekscott -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 9:44:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

Right, I know, the biggest reason is Alan Faneca. It could have been any QB and they'd have made the playoffs.


If they would have kept Pennington, they would have IMHO, with one caveat...If Tom Brady doesn't get hurt...the Jets don't make the playoffs no matter who is at QB.


Right, I got it. The same pathetic offense that had Pennington and Clemons last year, with the same receivers, same running back, adding no one but Alan Faneca would go from a horrible ranked offense and winning four games to being one of the top scoring offenses and winning at least 9 games (splitting with the Patriots).

It isn't that I don't understand the argument, I just feel that it comes from a place of illogical Favre hatred. But, as you've stated with Marty, it's probably pointless to keep talking about it. In this scenario, it makes no difference if the Jets lose the next 2 games and sit out the playoffs, or go on to win it. Favre will not be a factor either way.

We should 100% absolutely, positively sign Alan Faneca even if he costs $100 million dollars. We would win at a minimum 3 rings.


[&o][&o][&o][&o][&o]

I never said that. Pennington has played pretty well in Miami this year.  In all liklihood, with the better protection, they would have played about as well as they have. 

I will admit that they've gotten better QB play this year than last year.  but Pennington this year would have been fine with the extra protection IMHO. 




John Childress -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 9:46:44 AM)

quote:

I just think this "he has very little to do with it" is utterly ridiculous and revisionist history. No one, including you, was talking about the Jets making the playoffs because of all this "star" talent they added. And really, they didn't.
Agreed

He inspired that team for 11 weeks and had them playing up to their potential.

Weeks 12-14, not so much.

He has 2 weeks to return them to the form of the first 11 weeks or it wasn't really worth it.




Trekgeekscott -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 9:50:48 AM)

Simple Jets history of the past few year, prior to this season...when Pennington was healthy...they were better.  The problem has been, he hasn't been healthy.




djskillz -> RE: NFL News (12/19/2008 9:54:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

Simple Jets history of the past few year, prior to this season...when Pennington was healthy...they were better.  The problem has been, he hasn't been healthy.


Yep.

And again, E, you're using a strawman argument.  It is NOT just about Faneca.

It's about Faneca, and 4 other ProBowlers being added to the team, in addition to Favre, plus expected improvement (and vast improvement) from Mangold and Ferguson, both high picks. 

Favre maybe has a LITTLE to do with the improvement, but just not that much IMO.




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