RE: College Football (Future Vikings!)

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Ed_Marotske -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 1:47:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz Could be, Art. It's very, very difficult already for baseball in college because of the money. I had so many friends that were "promised" baseball scholarships in college and got screwed by the system. Baseball's just tougher to make it in than the other sports, period. Takes those guys 6-7 years from high school to "get it" if they ever do. They'll always fight an uphill battle in college sports. What year are we talking about? My son is a junior in high school and he's been contacted by no less than 6 schools so far to play college baseball. And I will agree that sports like baseball do NOT get the scholarship money that larger college sports get, but there is still money out there. Unless you are a can't miss prospect, the best kids out of high school are lucky to see 50% scholarship money. Most kids I've seen commit and get offers (and I see plenty) are getting anywhere between 20% - 40% athletic scholarship and then for the kids who get good grades, they usually will find some academic scholarship money from the school as well. This is just based on my experience here. I have a little different opinion (key word here is opinion....it may not be your opinion, but this is just how I look at it.) I took my son to his first unofficial visit to Virginia Tech to meet the baseball coaches, tour campus, tour the baseball facilities and take in a Va. Tech football game. We had a ton of fun and it was an eye opening experience. That being said, in my micro economics class we talked about this very issue of amateur college athlete's and those kids being paid a wage or, if you'd like a more conducive word "stipend." In my MBA class we had some people in favor of the stipend and some against it, and this was some of the against it belief: (I know this won't be popular in here but, oh well: I'm going to use my son's trip to Va. Tech experience to explain. So....a Student (This is what these student athlete's are supposed to be) who achieves enough in high school and earns a full ride scholarship to college gets some of the following: Free 1st class Education to include books in damn near any subject that school offers. If the prospective student doesn't like the programs the school offers academically then they shouldn't go to that school. As nice as Va. Tech is, and no, they have not offered my son, but they don't offer what my son wants to study, so he won't attend there. My son knows his 1st responsibility is to get an education and shouldn't that be everyone's thought process? If these kids stay in school one year or five, the focus for those year(s) should still be education. Free Room and Board - I was walking behind the few kids that were attending this visit and talking to one of the "student coaches" and I asked about campus life: For the baseball team these kids are all put into the same dorm. Freshman on up. Can the kids opt out? Sure they can, (not as under classman at Va. Tech) but its a choice they make. An added expense they bring upon themselves. During our tour of the facility (Michael Vick has a hallway named after him) we were down by the gym, locker rooms, physical training area....all extremely awesome. Anyway, we got down to the area where they show you the issue point for athletic gear. This is where I wanted Ben to commit to Va. Tech on the spot LOL Va. Tech is a NIKE school and Easton sponsored school and the baseball players get the following: Glove, Bats, gear bags, cleats, turf shoes, running shoes, all practice gear, enough t-shirts, shorts, sweats and stuff....its just crazy! If you blow out a pair of sliding shorts, you simply walk down to the issue point and get another one. Hole in your cleats? Get on the hook with Nike and get another pair. Bat gets a dent? Call Easton and get another one. The "student coach" I was talking to was laughing at me as I kept making jokes about being able to save some money....finally Then I asked him what the football players get. He just looked at me and said that what the baseball team gets is nothing compared to what the football and basketball players get. He said it's insane what they get. So.....that's taken care of. When these teams hit the road for road games....My son plays Rugby (club sport at U of Maryland) and each year they get to use the schools bus....aw hell, its the football teams bus (one of them). I had an opportunity to get on the bus and take a look....Lets just say that an 8 hour bus ride is a walk in the park on one of these buses. At Va. Tech the baseball team rides the bus just about everywhere except they do fly to any games on the west coast or Florida....On the road these student athlete's pay for nothing. They do not pay for hotel rooms (1st class) they do not pay for food (Tons of it). Not only do these kids get a free education they are also afforded free tutoring and a lot of times these tutors are brought along on road trips to ensure the kids are staying on top of their studies. Along with 1st class facilities, these student athlete's get world class trainers, world class coaching, medical facilities on campus that are better than some local area hospitals, doctor's, physical therapists etc... These full ride scholarships do include quite a bit, I have to admit. When you start adding up what the incidental costs are that are rolled into a full ride athletic scholarship, these student athlete's are taken care of above and beyond what most of us can even imagine. Lets take a look at what this September 2013, USA Today article says based on the Knight Commission Reporrt. "The Knight Commission says Division I schools with football spent $91,936 per athlete in 2010, seven times the spending per student of $13,628. Division I universities without football spent $39,201 per athlete, more than triple the average student spending." I can only assume that those numbers have climbed since 2010. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/15/athletics-cost-colleges-students-millions/2814455/ I think the biggest issue I have when it comes to student athletes stating they think they deserve to be paid is that when they finish their tenure at their school, they have zero school bills to pay. The average student who stays at a four year university is leaving school with debt in 6 figures. Again, I can attest to this first hand as my oldest has student debt piling up like its cool. For those who think students should be paid, how would you actually decide how much a student gets paid? Does the 18 year old Female Freshman LAX player who sits on the end of the bench except for garbage time get the same amount of pay that say the 19 year old red shirt Freshman Starting QB? What about a Senior starting QB? How do you make it fair? Does it need to be fair? Should football players get more than basketball players? Who decides on who gets paid what? Lets take another look at the USA Today article: Nearly every university loses money on sports. Even after private donations and ticket sales, they fill the gap by tapping students paying tuition or state taxpayers. Athletics is among the biggest examples of the eruption in spending by universities that has experts concerned about whether higher education can sustain itself. The lethal combination of exploding spending, tuition and student debt could lead to a wider financial crisis, reminiscent of the Internet bubble of the late 1990s or the housing bubble in the late 2000s. Can Universities afford to pay students? We know that the NCAA is a multi-billion dollar "non-profit" industry. [&o] So, where is all of this money going? According to the NCAA http://www.statisticbrain.com/ncaa-college-athletics-statistics/ 73% of all revenue (10.6 Billion) goes back to schools and also pays for 89 championships in 23 sports. If 73% of the $10.6 Billion goes back to the schools, and "nearly" every university loses money on sports, where is the money to pay students who are playing sports? Virginia, for example, relies on over $12 million in student fees to balance their budget. Florida State? $6.9 million. How do those programs afford to pay players? And if they can’t find a way to afford it, how do they recruit against the programs who can? http://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsmoney/2011/06/09/the-problems-with-paying-college-athletes/2/ My reasoning behind not paying students is simple; Just because a student can play a sport, should in no way distinguish that student above any other. Playing athletics for a university is not a right...its a privilege. Why should a student athlete receive monies above and beyond the realm of the scholarship offered? As stated above, it cost a Div 1 school over $90,000 per athlete per year if the school has a football program. Multiply that by 4 years and now that number is $360,000 per athlete over a 4 year scholarship. That's above and beyond the free tuition and free room and board. With no football program? Schools still put in almost $40k per athlete, which is 3x what the average academic student receives. What about Division IA, Division IAA, and Division IAAA? Do these students deserve to get paid? What about the NCAA Division II and III schools? Better yet, What about the NAIA division? That's run by the NCAA as well. Where is the cut off? Someone mentioned club sports. Rugby for instance. My son practices the max amount of time allowed by the NCAA, he still has to attend class, and do his homework, and like most athlete's looks for more time to improve his craft. He plays a 12-15 game season and travels as far South as South Carolina, and as far North as New York. Never mind his desire to try and make the US National Team. My son misses meals because of practice or games, and my son doesn't have a spread waiting for him in the locker room after he's done playing. Where is the stipend for my son to eat? Does he rate one too? I read an article about a former college quarterback who claimed they deserved extra money because they don't have time to go out and get a job to pay for incidentals like a place to stay, utilities, gas, money to party, money to pay for a cell phone etc... That explains about 85% of any college population. The former college QB didn't have to stay in a house and pay rent and utilities, his scholarship offered him room and board. Why does the quarterback need a car? Plenty of kids don't have cars at college because they can't afford one. If my son wants to go out and be entertained, if he doesn't have the money he doesn't go, plain and simple. Having a full ride to college doesn't mean the school is paying for your social life. It means the school will pay your tuition to attend their school if you agree to play that sport for them. That's a pretty rosey deal if you ask me. Lastly, this may be my biggest point. Does anyone know the percentage of student athlete's who make it to the professional ranks? Its not very many. There are approximately 538,000 high school student athlete's across the country that play Men's Basketball: There are approximately 153,000 of these who are playing that are Senior's in High School There are approximately 18,000 NCAA Student athlete's playing Men's Basketball There are approximately 5000 Freshman roster spots Out of those 18,000 NCAA men's basketball players, approximately 4000 are seniors 46 out of those 18,000 Men basketball players will get drafted and most of them will not be seniors. % of Men's High School basketball players who play basketball in College? 3.3% % of College to Pro's? 1.2% Lets look at Football There are approximately 1,086,627 High School kids playing football across the country. There are approximately 310,000 Seniors in high school playing football. There are approximately 70,000 NCAA Student Athlete's playing NCAA Football. There are approximately 20,000 Freshman roster positions open. There are approximately 15,600 Senior Student Athlete's playing NCAA Football % of kids who make it into college to play football from high school? 6.5% % of Student Athlete's drafted into the pro's? 1.6% That's 254 people drafted....not all seniors. How about Baseball? There are approximately 470,000 High School Student Athlete's playing Baseball High School Seniors? 135,000 NCAA Student Athletes playing Baseball? 32,000 NCAA Freshman Roster Spots 9000 NCAA Senior Student Athlete's Baseball 7200 # of NCAA student athlete's Drafted? 678 % of High School to NCAA? 6.8% % NCAA to Professional? 9.4% And finally, lets look at Women's Basketball There are approximately 433,000 High School Girls playing High School Basketball There are approximately 124,000 Women High School Senior Student Athletes playing High School Basketball There are approximately 16,000 NCAA Women Student Athletes playing basketball There are approximately 4600 Freshman roster spots There are approximately 3500 Senior Women playing NCAA basketball % of high school who make it to college? 3.7% % of NCAA College women who make it pro? .9% http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/probability-competing-beyond-high-school So....all of these numbers are significant why? I cannot remember the last time in this country we talked about how great the education system is in this country is. Its been said college tuition is too expensive to include books. I just bought my next book for my own MBA class starting in a couple weeks. My financial management book would cost me close to $300 if I wanted it new. To rent it, its almost $200. Shouldn't we be using money generated by student athletes to make our educational system better? I love watching college sports. Football, Basketball, Hockey, Baseball....I think watching kids play for something other than money is the best sports to watch. High School sports even better. The NCAA basketball tournament is the greatest tournament in college sports. For me, (again, this is only an opinion of mine, you may think differently) if they start paying students then the entire game changes. I'm not sure I'd enjoy the games anymore. Pro leagues in this country are the ultimate goal for a lot of kids. My son wants to play MLB so bad he can taste it. Do I know if he's going to make it? Nope, I sure don't and that's why I stress to him about making sure he's going to school to earn his degree and to also play baseball. And even if he received a 100% full ride (he won't) my thoughts wouldn't change. It is my responsibility as a parent to put my son in a position to succeed in life and the percentages do not favor professional sports. It is MY responsibility to cater to my son's cell phone bill, extra curricula's and the like. I think our priorities are skewed, and to bring in another element of paying students will continue to skew in that direction. In my opinion. Yes....there are many facets of this that can be brought into this. Autographs, merchandise etc... I just don't know. Should kids be able to market themselves, deliver autographs, get royalties from video games (O'Bannon), Jersey Sales etc? I wish I had a concrete answer to that. Its a slippery slope I think. Soon, kids will have agents and Nike and Ford will be giving Oregon and Michigan money if they sign such and such a player....you may think not, but sure it could. You look at the illegal activities of boosters today, multiply that 10 fold once you get agents and sponsors involved. Anyway....a lot of thoughts on the subject, and I apologize for taking up the bandwidth. I just got started and couldn't stop.....

Richard Neussendorfer -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 2:18:25 PM)
Very very informative stuff Ed! Great post!

Guest -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 3:25:25 PM)
Good stuff Ed ... and 50 years ago or whenever athletic scholarships were introduced on a large scale, you would be spot on 100%. Currently the issue is not so much paying these kids to play ... it's they have no alternative but to go to school to play. Of the 4 major sports leagues in this country that command any kind of television revenue, only baseball and hockey have minor leagues. Not coincidentally, those sports generate less money in college than the other two ... basketball and football. College football and basketball are the minor leagues for their sport. This is where the problem lies IMO. The true star players ... the real talent ... the ones who sell jerseys for their schools by the tens of thousands ... put butts in the seats etc.... they have no viable option other than to play for free (and get an education, which is great). Minor league players get paid everywhere else in sports. Not a whole lot of money, but they still get paid. Kids in those sports have an option to hone their skills either in school, or in the minors. These kids need a choice. Until the NFL creates a minor league system, these kids should receive some monetary compensation. And if they don't want to go to school, they shouldn't have to be forced to in order to improve their skills.

bohumm -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 3:38:58 PM)
And the NFL should subsidize college football, instead of taxpayers. Then again, the NFL has made extraction of taxpayer money for profit an art form, so why would they ever want to pay their fair share of anything?

Ed_Marotske -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 4:57:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bohumm And the NFL should subsidize college football, instead of taxpayers. Then again, the NFL has made extraction of taxpayer money for profit an art form, so why would they ever want to pay their fair share of anything? You know what? This idea has merit. Your right though, would never happen. Art You say these kids are playing for free, but thats just not the case as I pointed out above. The average amount of money a Division 1 school that has Football spends over $91,000 on each athlete. Over the course of 4 years thats an additional $360,000 these kids are receiving. How doesa that factor in? I'm sure the NCAA will eventually succumb to the pressure of paying these kids something. It'll be interesting to see how they deal with Title IX. I can't see it going away and unless they plan on finding a fair way to pay everyone......someone is going to bitch about it. The first time the next Jennie Finch comes along and they won't give her what the next Melvin Gordon is going to make? I want to watch THAT conversation being played out on National Television. What I agree with you on is about the jersey's with the kids names on them and who is getting paid off the name. If the NCAA wanted to truly deal with that, then they wouldn't allow any school to put a name on any game jersey. Thats never going to happen either. Let me ask this because I have no clue. Teddy Bridgewater, as a student at the University of Louisville couldn't profit off of the jersey being sold at the campus book store with his name on it, what about that jersey the day he graduates or leaves school? In other words, is the school now required to ante up starting the day he graduates/leaves the school for the NFL. Not for past jersey's sold, but from that day forward??? Its a good question Art...they hve been throwing some ideas around....maybe they will come up with a way where it works for everyone. But if they can't do it fairly, for everyone, then they shouldn't do it for anyone.....

Bill Jandro -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 5:12:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Art Frost is as good as hired. At least that's the impression I got when he talked with a local reporter here. Wouldn't confirm or deny anything. Only said asking that question wasn't fair to his players who are working to win the PAC12 Championship. As long as Musgrave doesn't come here to be OC we'll be able to plug someone in. It's a simple system. The preparation, talent and tempo are what make it work. Frost to Neb would be brutal for at least the first couple seasons until he could get his type of guys in there. Then it could spell trouble for the slow, lumbering Big 10. Luckily, he will get fired after the first 2 years for not winning conference titles by the high faluting Neb administration.

Guest -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 5:13:31 PM)
Ed, some kids don't want to go to school. Whether they are athletes or chefs. The NFL, and to a lesser extent the NBA, forces them to go to school. Free/Not free ... not really the point. There needs to be a minor league system in place for both leagues. Otherwise you are basically telling kids you a) have to go to school ... b) have to succeed in school ... c) cannot be compensated for your craft/skill until you leave school. That's the part I take issue with. Making a kid go to school who might otherwise not have the desire ... or the smarts ... should not be in the equation for their chosen field. If college basketball and football are going to serve as de facto minor league systems for the NBA and NFL, then players participating should receive compensation.

McMurfy -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 7:28:20 PM)
Ed, great post, you are spot on. As someone who paid for all of my education myself,with 30k of student loans and as someone who has already socked away 40k for my 4 and 6 year olds, no one can tell me there is no value in a free education. And Art, nobody owes anyone the opportunity to play pro sports with a minor league of any sorts. Good enough to be a pro, great, please pusue the path of least resistance, college or go to Europe, Canada, or China, but do it on your own dime. Lastly, it's not like a prison sentence, many of us would agree that college is some of the best times of our lives.

Guest -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 8:01:32 PM)
It's not a question of owing anything. Not everybody is college material. Not everybody wants to go to school. If you have a talent for football, you should not be forced to go to school to pursue it. Tackling a running back is not brain surgery.

Guest -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 8:06:53 PM)
Joel ... about the "own dime" comment. My niece just got a free ride at Towson with an athletic scholarship in gymnastics. It cost my sister 200K the last 10 years for my niece's training. Probably more than the education costs. She loved it ... the competition ... the travel ... But it cost a whole lot of dough before she even got to college.

bohumm -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 8:13:09 PM)
The problem with the discussion of paying college football and basketball players---and maybe hockey---is that that people can't separate the discussion from their own experience. A college athlete's college experience in a profitable football or basketball program resembles that of others' only by location. From hoochies to time requirements, the athletes day-to-day is that of any entertainment professional---that is, unique to the mechanisms by which they generate revenues. Actors on a movie production get up early, take direction, cultivate their craft and their look, participate in PR, and prey on women around the production or at a nearby bar. Athletes get up early, take direction, work out/practice, fulfill academic requirements, participate in PR, and prey on women from class, the lunch line, or a nearby bar. Another commonality: they generate loads of money for loads of people. Main difference: the athletes don't get any of the money and cannot trade on the fame they generate. Why does everyone in America get to participate in the free market except major college football and basketball players? And that dollar figure is bogus. The incremental cost to the college is the measuring stick, not the market tuition. If that's what it costs the school, give it to the player and see what choices they would make.

bohumm -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 8:25:21 PM)
It would be much better to let players pursue education if they want to and where they want to. Let them take pursue vocational degrees, allied health licenses, culinary expertise, etc, in addition to courses at the university. College BB is the biggest con job, because one and done players don't ever have to do anything in their second semester. Why is so hard for people to admit that big-time college football and basketball are primarily about money? Education is great and some players who wouldn't otherwise get an education, which is also great, but the machinations we go through to pretend it's the college experience we had with the addition of a sport and the subtraction of debt are ridiculous and deleterious to the integrity of the discussion.

djskillz -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 8:30:25 PM)
Exactly. I'm not arguing the value of an education. I'm someone who has had over $100K in loans and that's while getting about 2/3 to 3/4 of my college and law school education paid for by scholarships. So I get that. Though let's be real about how institutions actually treat "education" for most of these athletes. BUT these schools are generating billions of dollars off of these athletes (collectively) and the athletes have no real other viable option. I think it's tough to create a system of massive amounts of cash to the players through the institutions, but I do think players of all sports should get some form of stipend, etc. I think the real answer though, is allowing the athletes to market themselves. I'm with Jay Bilas on this subject. Michael Phelps can still be an "amateur" athlete while generating millions of dollars through endorsements. Why should it be different for college athletes? A great college musician on a full ride scholarship can still make all the money they want producing an album. Why can an athlete not sell their autograph or likeness while the universities can through TV rights, jersey sales, videogames, tickets, etc? That is about as un-American as it gets. That would also solve the disparities between college athletes' values. If you're the benchwarmer on the lacrosse team, guess what, you're not going to make even close to what the star QB makes through marketing and endorsements. That's life. I don't think the longsnapper on Florida or USC think they deserve the same opportunities that Matt Leinart or Tim Tebow did. And to that point, especially with football, we are talking about an incredibly dangerous endeavor with life-threatening consequences. That can potentially be the height of that 20 year old's earning power in their life, yet they don't get to use it. That doesn't make any sense to me. And this is all under the hypocritical eye of the NCAA, where you can eat bagels but it's a violation to eat cream cheese with them. Honestly, what kind of anarchy are we running here? And as coaches like Urban Meyer have said, it's their job and responsibility as a 40-year old with a job to know these rules, but their punishments as coaches/administrators are much lighter than they are for 18 year old kids who in a lot of cases have come from nothing? I get the argument that boosters/companies will just make sweetheart deals with colleges/athletes in that scenario to entice them to play for them, but it's naive to think that isn't happening right now anyway, and at least that would be a lot more transparent. So pay the players/don't pay the players, but give them their full marketing/endorsement rights to do as they wish with their likeness. Anything less is incredibly unfair.

McMurfy -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 8:32:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Art Joel ... about the "own dime" comment. My niece just got a free ride at Towson with an athletic scholarship in gymnastics. It cost my sister 200K the last 10 years for my niece's training. Probably more than the education costs. She loved it ... the competition ... the travel ... But it cost a whole lot of dough before she even got to college. That's funny, my parents did the same thing with my younger sister, only an injury derailed the scholarship part. Now she is the hanstandingist RN in the whole VA system and needs constant attention since she is no longer the center of the stage (mat)

McMurfy -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 8:36:38 PM)
Sounding awfully whiny and kevetchy Bohumm. I have no,problem seperating my experience from that of the college athletes and have no problem saying it's all about big money. Even if the back of the jersey says Webber, what is on the front of the jersey is what primarily sells it.

Guest -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 8:41:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz Exactly. I'm not arguing the value of an education. I'm someone who has had over $100K in loans and that's while getting about 2/3 to 3/4 of my college and law school education paid for by scholarships. So I get that. Though let's be real about how institutions actually treat "education" for most of these athletes. BUT these schools are generating billions of dollars off of these athletes (collectively) and the athletes have no real other viable option. I think it's tough to create a system of massive amounts of cash to the players through the institutions, but I do think players of all sports should get some form of stipend, etc. I think the real answer though, is allowing the athletes to market themselves. I'm with Jay Bilas on this subject. Michael Phelps can still be an "amateur" athlete while generating millions of dollars through endorsements. Why should it be different for college athletes? A great college musician on a full ride scholarship can still make all the money they want producing an album. Why can an athlete not sell their autograph or likeness while the universities can through TV rights, jersey sales, videogames, tickets, etc? That is about as un-American as it gets. That would also solve the disparities between college athletes' values. If you're the benchwarmer on the lacrosse team, guess what, you're not going to make even close to what the star QB makes through marketing and endorsements. That's life. I don't think the longsnapper on Florida or USC think they deserve the same opportunities that Matt Leinart or Tim Tebow did. And to that point, especially with football, we are talking about an incredibly dangerous endeavor with life-threatening consequences. That can potentially be the height of that 20 year old's earning power in their life, yet they don't get to use it. That doesn't make any sense to me. And this is all under the hypocritical eye of the NCAA, where you can eat bagels but it's a violation to eat cream cheese with them. Honestly, what kind of anarchy are we running here? And as coaches like Urban Meyer have said, it's their job and responsibility as a 40-year old with a job to know these rules, but their punishments as coaches/administrators are much lighter than they are for 18 year old kids who in a lot of cases have come from nothing? I get the argument that boosters/companies will just make sweetheart deals with colleges/athletes in that scenario to entice them to play for them, but it's naive to think that isn't happening right now anyway, and at least that would be a lot more transparent. So pay the players/don't pay the players, but give them their full marketing/endorsement rights to do as they wish with their likeness. Anything less is incredibly unfair. That's a good take. I still think the simplest way is to take school out of the equation. You don't need to go to school to do many layman type jobs, why does a football player have to?

McMurfy -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 8:42:48 PM)
I hate the argument that the athlete who came from nothing can't afford a cheeseburger. OK, then eat in the cafeteria provided to you, and by the way, the athletic training table is now under no limitations by the NCAA and is up to the school. To that athlete, I ask where they'd be without the college? On a street corner? In the army? The amounts pro athletes make is already enough to almost cause a riot, why should we subsidize their journey as well?

McMurfy -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 8:43:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Art quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz Exactly. I'm not arguing the value of an education. I'm someone who has had over $100K in loans and that's while getting about 2/3 to 3/4 of my college and law school education paid for by scholarships. So I get that. Though let's be real about how institutions actually treat "education" for most of these athletes. BUT these schools are generating billions of dollars off of these athletes (collectively) and the athletes have no real other viable option. I think it's tough to create a system of massive amounts of cash to the players through the institutions, but I do think players of all sports should get some form of stipend, etc. I think the real answer though, is allowing the athletes to market themselves. I'm with Jay Bilas on this subject. Michael Phelps can still be an "amateur" athlete while generating millions of dollars through endorsements. Why should it be different for college athletes? A great college musician on a full ride scholarship can still make all the money they want producing an album. Why can an athlete not sell their autograph or likeness while the universities can through TV rights, jersey sales, videogames, tickets, etc? That is about as un-American as it gets. That would also solve the disparities between college athletes' values. If you're the benchwarmer on the lacrosse team, guess what, you're not going to make even close to what the star QB makes through marketing and endorsements. That's life. I don't think the longsnapper on Florida or USC think they deserve the same opportunities that Matt Leinart or Tim Tebow did. And to that point, especially with football, we are talking about an incredibly dangerous endeavor with life-threatening consequences. That can potentially be the height of that 20 year old's earning power in their life, yet they don't get to use it. That doesn't make any sense to me. And this is all under the hypocritical eye of the NCAA, where you can eat bagels but it's a violation to eat cream cheese with them. Honestly, what kind of anarchy are we running here? And as coaches like Urban Meyer have said, it's their job and responsibility as a 40-year old with a job to know these rules, but their punishments as coaches/administrators are much lighter than they are for 18 year old kids who in a lot of cases have come from nothing? I get the argument that boosters/companies will just make sweetheart deals with colleges/athletes in that scenario to entice them to play for them, but it's naive to think that isn't happening right now anyway, and at least that would be a lot more transparent. So pay the players/don't pay the players, but give them their full marketing/endorsement rights to do as they wish with their likeness. Anything less is incredibly unfair. That's a good take. I still think the simplest way is to take school out of the equation. You don't need to go to school to do many layman type jobs, why does a football player have to? He doesn't Art, once he's 20 he can try out for pro and semi pro leagues.

bohumm -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 8:46:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: McMurfy Sounding awfully whiny and kevetchy Bohumm. I have no,problem seperating my experience from that of the college athletes and have no problem saying it's all about big money. Even if the back of the jersey says Webber, what is on the front of the jersey is what primarily sells it. Well played, sir!

Guest -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 9:08:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: McMurfy quote: ORIGINAL: Art quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz Exactly. I'm not arguing the value of an education. I'm someone who has had over $100K in loans and that's while getting about 2/3 to 3/4 of my college and law school education paid for by scholarships. So I get that. Though let's be real about how institutions actually treat "education" for most of these athletes. BUT these schools are generating billions of dollars off of these athletes (collectively) and the athletes have no real other viable option. I think it's tough to create a system of massive amounts of cash to the players through the institutions, but I do think players of all sports should get some form of stipend, etc. I think the real answer though, is allowing the athletes to market themselves. I'm with Jay Bilas on this subject. Michael Phelps can still be an "amateur" athlete while generating millions of dollars through endorsements. Why should it be different for college athletes? A great college musician on a full ride scholarship can still make all the money they want producing an album. Why can an athlete not sell their autograph or likeness while the universities can through TV rights, jersey sales, videogames, tickets, etc? That is about as un-American as it gets. That would also solve the disparities between college athletes' values. If you're the benchwarmer on the lacrosse team, guess what, you're not going to make even close to what the star QB makes through marketing and endorsements. That's life. I don't think the longsnapper on Florida or USC think they deserve the same opportunities that Matt Leinart or Tim Tebow did. And to that point, especially with football, we are talking about an incredibly dangerous endeavor with life-threatening consequences. That can potentially be the height of that 20 year old's earning power in their life, yet they don't get to use it. That doesn't make any sense to me. And this is all under the hypocritical eye of the NCAA, where you can eat bagels but it's a violation to eat cream cheese with them. Honestly, what kind of anarchy are we running here? And as coaches like Urban Meyer have said, it's their job and responsibility as a 40-year old with a job to know these rules, but their punishments as coaches/administrators are much lighter than they are for 18 year old kids who in a lot of cases have come from nothing? I get the argument that boosters/companies will just make sweetheart deals with colleges/athletes in that scenario to entice them to play for them, but it's naive to think that isn't happening right now anyway, and at least that would be a lot more transparent. So pay the players/don't pay the players, but give them their full marketing/endorsement rights to do as they wish with their likeness. Anything less is incredibly unfair. That's a good take. I still think the simplest way is to take school out of the equation. You don't need to go to school to do many layman type jobs, why does a football player have to? He doesn't Art, once he's 20 he can try out for pro and semi pro leagues. No matter how you slice it, it's still a de facto minor league to the NFL. And the NFL loves it because it costs them nothing ... doesn't compete with them ... it's basically like stealing cable.

Guest -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 9:11:07 PM)
Where are you watching the game Friday Joel? Or Sunday? PM me. Let's get together for one or the other. Jason and Viking Don will be there.

djskillz -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 9:15:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: McMurfy Sounding awfully whiny and kevetchy Bohumm. I have no,problem seperating my experience from that of the college athletes and have no problem saying it's all about big money. Even if the back of the jersey says Webber, what is on the front of the jersey is what primarily sells it. Vehemently disagree. You think there weren't millions of Tebow or Manziel fans that could care less about A&M or Florida? Ditto for Webber at Michigan.

McMurfy -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 9:18:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Art Where are you watching the game Friday Joel? Or Sunday? PM me. Let's get together for one or the other. Jason and Viking Don will be there. Thanks Art, but headed to the coast. Still need to meet up with you guys though.

McMurfy -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 9:19:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz quote: ORIGINAL: McMurfy Sounding awfully whiny and kevetchy Bohumm. I have no,problem seperating my experience from that of the college athletes and have no problem saying it's all about big money. Even if the back of the jersey says Webber, what is on the front of the jersey is what primarily sells it. Vehemently disagree. You think there weren't millions of Tebow or Manziel fans that could care less about A&M or Florida? Ditto for Webber at Michigan. Well of course there was but how much Michigan gear has sold since then or before then?

djskillz -> RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) (12/3/2014 9:24:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Art quote: ORIGINAL: McMurfy quote: ORIGINAL: Art quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz Exactly. I'm not arguing the value of an education. I'm someone who has had over $100K in loans and that's while getting about 2/3 to 3/4 of my college and law school education paid for by scholarships. So I get that. Though let's be real about how institutions actually treat "education" for most of these athletes. BUT these schools are generating billions of dollars off of these athletes (collectively) and the athletes have no real other viable option. I think it's tough to create a system of massive amounts of cash to the players through the institutions, but I do think players of all sports should get some form of stipend, etc. I think the real answer though, is allowing the athletes to market themselves. I'm with Jay Bilas on this subject. Michael Phelps can still be an "amateur" athlete while generating millions of dollars through endorsements. Why should it be different for college athletes? A great college musician on a full ride scholarship can still make all the money they want producing an album. Why can an athlete not sell their autograph or likeness while the universities can through TV rights, jersey sales, videogames, tickets, etc? That is about as un-American as it gets. That would also solve the disparities between college athletes' values. If you're the benchwarmer on the lacrosse team, guess what, you're not going to make even close to what the star QB makes through marketing and endorsements. That's life. I don't think the longsnapper on Florida or USC think they deserve the same opportunities that Matt Leinart or Tim Tebow did. And to that point, especially with football, we are talking about an incredibly dangerous endeavor with life-threatening consequences. That can potentially be the height of that 20 year old's earning power in their life, yet they don't get to use it. That doesn't make any sense to me. And this is all under the hypocritical eye of the NCAA, where you can eat bagels but it's a violation to eat cream cheese with them. Honestly, what kind of anarchy are we running here? And as coaches like Urban Meyer have said, it's their job and responsibility as a 40-year old with a job to know these rules, but their punishments as coaches/administrators are much lighter than they are for 18 year old kids who in a lot of cases have come from nothing? I get the argument that boosters/companies will just make sweetheart deals with colleges/athletes in that scenario to entice them to play for them, but it's naive to think that isn't happening right now anyway, and at least that would be a lot more transparent. So pay the players/don't pay the players, but give them their full marketing/endorsement rights to do as they wish with their likeness. Anything less is incredibly unfair. That's a good take. I still think the simplest way is to take school out of the equation. You don't need to go to school to do many layman type jobs, why does a football player have to? He doesn't Art, once he's 20 he can try out for pro and semi pro leagues. No matter how you slice it, it's still a de facto minor league to the NFL. And the NFL loves it because it costs them nothing ... doesn't compete with them ... it's basically like stealing cable. Exactly. Everyone is making out but the athletes themselves, which are putting their lives on the line.

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