RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (Full Version)

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Mr. Ed -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/2/2018 1:59:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I'm a bit surprised. One article I read says that nobody has gone much over $100M total money on a Darvish offer and that surprisingly there are offers below $100M.

Bore-ass of course is fuming because nobody is biting on Arrieta. Apparently everyone seems to realize that his numbers have been in decline since 2015.


After 2015 Arrieta must have stopped 'roiding




Mr. Ed -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/2/2018 2:01:03 PM)

There are a lot of stories regarding Darvish out there and a ton of speculation

Yu Darvish is still on the radar for both the Cubs and Dodgers, though with some caveats. Chicago “seem to be hoping that Darvish will choose them for reasons that are not economic,” which implies that Darvish would drop his asking price to play for a World Series contender. In the Dodgers’ case, there is “some ambivalence by at least some” at the ownership level about bringing Darvish back in the wake of his well-publicized struggles during the World Series.




CPAMAN -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/2/2018 2:19:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

The Cain contract alone should be enough to disprove collusion.


What about Wade Davis? That contract is ridiculous! [:-]




Phil Riewer -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/2/2018 2:22:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

The Cain contract alone should be enough to disprove collusion.


What about Wade Davis? That contract is ridiculous! [:-]


Pat Neshek 2/16ish.....




Mr. Ed -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/3/2018 6:19:07 AM)

SI/Tom Verducci

Training camps open in two weeks, with more than a hundred free agents waiting for more money than what’s been out there and commissioner Rob Manfred ready to unilaterally implement pace-of-action procedures. These are nervous times for the players association. Nobody revealed this anxiety more than Brodie Van Wagenen, an agent who turned, in Trumpian style, to Twitter In The Morning to bare his worried soul.
Van Wagenen penned a screed against the stagnant free agent market, in the most inflammatory language heard in years. He hinted at charging the owners with collusion, though instead of using the word he danced around it awkwardly by saying, “It feels coordinated,” with the big-time hedge of adding “rightly or wrongly.” (So owners could be in the right.)

He suggested that players boycott spring training, a direct repudiation of the union’s position on a conference call this week, in which players were told any such organized action would be unlawful.
Referring to the all-time low in the labor relations history between owners and players—the 1994–95 strike that wiped out the 1994 World Series—Van Wagenen said the players voices “are uniting in a way not seen since 1994.”
Do you know where Van Wagenen was during the great labor war of 1994? He was in Palo Alto, Calif., happily playing baseball for Stanford University.
Oh, and his saber-rattling about player resolve comes the day after one of the foot soldiers, Brandon Moss, blamed the union itself for getting rolled in the last Collective Bargaining Agreement. That was the deal that stiffened the soft cap created by a luxury tax threshold that hasn’t come close to keeping up with growth in revenues and payrolls.

“Everybody wants to look up and scream, ‘collusion,’” Moss said. “Everybody wants to look up and scream, ‘This isn’t fair.’ But sooner or later, you have to take responsibility for a system you created for yourself. It’s our fault.”
The union lost the CBA negotiations because it was obsessed with “quality of life” issues, such as days off, empty seats on buses, and clubhouse chefs, and because many players railed against the idea of a worldwide draft—a huge red herring. The worldwide draft was a bluff; it’s too hard to get international communities and government agencies to cooperate on such a system. But when the owners essentially said, “Ok, you win, we’ll take the international draft off the table,” the union celebrated a Pyrrhic win: it “won” something that was never there and never would be there.
Economic issues? They took their eye off the ball, and the error is showing up on the scoreboard now that the intellect of front offices has risen to an all-time high.

Here’s the problem that players and especially agents have trouble accepting: they are working in a disrupted industry. A rise in intellect and information has fundamentally changed the economics of baseball, just as they have changed many industries. Corporate profits are up in a roaring economy while wages are stagnant? How familiar does that sound to many millions of Americans?

About a decade ago, Oakland president Billy Beane said he could never get a job in the game today because he would be under-qualified. His desk was being bombarded with résumés of some of the brightest young minds in the country, people who had the education and smarts to be working on Wall Street, in policy think tanks, internet startups or corporate behemoths. More than anything, they brought an understanding of data-based value and risks. They have taken emotions out of the buying side of baseball, much to the chagrin of agents, who like to sell with pixie dust and ephemera.


There is no greater totem of a time gone by than the infamous Scott Boras Binders. There was a time not long ago that the agent, who operates essentially as a 31st franchise, given the size and thoroughness of his corporation, was celebrated for producing these silk-covered, hard-bound binders with vast statistical evidence about his clients’ extraordinary value. Reporters would breathlessly describe the bit of publishing razzle-dazzle as if a new Harry Potter edition were released. Owners were impressed.
In one of Boras’ greatest sleights of hand when it came to making numbers work, he compared 27-year-old Oliver Perez to Sandy Koufax and Randy Johnson, two of the greatest lefthanded pitchers in the history of the sport. The Mets gave Perez $36 million over three years.
Over those three years Perez went 3–9 with a 6.81 ERA and pitched only 112 1/3 innings.

That happened in 2008. It may as well have been in the Mesozoic era.
The Oliver Perez of 10 years ago (55–60, 4.39, 999.1 innings, with an ERA+ of 96) today is Jhoulys Chacin (59–67, 3.93, 1023, 111). Chacin signed for $15.5 million over two years.
The dinosaurs are dead. The Mesozoic era is over.

You don’t hear much about the Boras binding business now because even the most analytically-challenged club has a firm, well-educated grasp of value. Thanks to sites such as Fangraphs and MLB Trade Rumors, the average fan has a better idea of value than what some clubs had in 2008 when Perez was on the market.

It wasn’t hard to see this winter coming. I told you at the start of this market why Jay Bruce was not going to get the money Jason Bay or Nick Swisher got back in 2009 and 2012, respectively. MLB Trade Rumors estimated he would sign for $39 million over three years—the exact contract he received from the Mets.
I told you at the beginning of the market why older hitters, especially corner players, don’t have the same value any more. And yet Van Wagenen can’t understand why Todd Frazier, his client who is about to turn 32 and has hit .220 over more than a thousand at-bats the past two years, can’t get Michael Cuddyer money from six years ago ($31.5 million over three years).
I understand why agents don’t like this disruption. They should be angry that they aren’t getting the kind of money thrown around years ago. But their argument falls apart when it is based on using bad contracts to justify the continuation of more bad contracts.
In 2013 alone, for instance, the free agent market included jackpots from mid- and small markets to Shin-Soo Choo ($130 million over seven years from the Rangers), Jhonny Peralta ($53 million over four years by the Cardinals), Matt Garza ($50 million over four years by the Brewers), Ricky Nolasco ($49 million, four years from the Twins), Ubaldo Jimenez ($48 million, four years from the Orioles) and Omar Infante ($30 million over four years from the Royals).
Agents look at those deals and see barometers for their current clients.
Teams look at those deals and decide, especially as the game is turned over more and more to younger players, that it’s a mistake to pay for a player’s decline when prime years of young players are far more efficient.
The other disruption is how teams have moved out of the middle of the road when it comes to competing. They’ve smartly realized—and again, this is because information has become so much more reliable in forecasting—that if you are not competing for the World Series, you should hold your powder for when you are close enough to that goal.
Here’s an example of the old way: the 2014 White Sox went 73–89. Only two teams in the American League gave up more runs. They were eighth in runs scored while striking out more than all but one team in the league. By any measure, they were not very good. But they had Jose Abreu and Chris Sale, and GM Rick Hahn didn’t want to let their primes pass without trying to win.
So this is what the White Sox did that winter: they dropped $132 million on free agents Dave Robertson, Melky Cabrera, Adam LaRoche, Zach Duke and Emilio Bonifacio. What happened? They went 76–86. They spent $132 million for three more meaningless wins. They spent money when they weren’t ready to win.
The next year they went 78–84. Finally, two years too late, Hahn began a teardown of a bad club.
Nothing drives the game more today than where a team is on the winning curve. Nobody chases 81 wins any more, the way the White Sox did. You spend when you are ready to chase 87 wins, the figurative bar for a wild card spot.
The Pirates are this year’s facsimile of the 2014 White Sox, a 75-win team with a terrible offense and mediocre pitching staff. Would Pittsburgh be a contender by throwing around $132 million this winter? The Pirates’ problem is they never spent enough money when it would have made a difference. When they did have a World Series caliber team, they didn’t spend to finish off those clubs, the way the Cubs, Astros and Royals did when they were on the right end of the winning curve.
I understand Van Wagenen’s stress. Besides the frozen winter, the players are backed into a corner on the pace-of-action initiatives. These are tough times for players even though the economics of the game are strong. They should be speaking out, though better it come from Tony Clark and strong union leadership—the way it did in the past—than the Twitter thumbs of an agent.

Boras is right that the incentive to win must be stronger than the incentive to lose (i.e., save money). The players do have a legitimate gripe here with the way the game has turned so sharply against them, even if it’s still in a world where Eric Hosmer can turn down seven-year deals and Alex Cobb doesn’t jump at $42 million.
But the rules of the game were bargained collectively. As long as owners aren’t dumb enough to repeat their mortal sin of collusion, players are getting squeezed by a new world order. They need to start working on solutions for the next CBA, to take the fight about chefs to economic issues. In the meantime, as Van Wagenen showed the world, these are anxious times to be a veteran player in a disrupted world.




twinsfan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/3/2018 9:15:57 AM)

Oh, and his saber-rattling about player resolve comes the day after one of the foot soldiers, Brandon Moss, blamed the union itself for getting rolled in the last Collective Bargaining Agreement. That was the deal that stiffened the soft cap created by a luxury tax threshold that hasn’t come close to keeping up with growth in revenues and payrolls.

“Everybody wants to look up and scream, ‘collusion,’” Moss said. “Everybody wants to look up and scream, ‘This isn’t fair.’ But sooner or later, you have to take responsibility for a system you created for yourself. It’s our fault.”
The union lost the CBA negotiations because it was obsessed with “quality of life” issues, such as days off, empty seats on buses, and clubhouse chefs, and because many players railed against the idea of a worldwide draft—a huge red herring. The worldwide draft was a bluff; it’s too hard to get international communities and government agencies to cooperate on such a system. But when the owners essentially said, “Ok, you win, we’ll take the international draft off the table,” the union celebrated a Pyrrhic win: it “won” something that was never there and never would be there.
Economic issues? They took their eye off the ball, and the error is showing up on the scoreboard now that the intellect of front offices has risen to an all-time high.


-------------------------

Yup, I was wondering about collusion a month ago or so. An old friend by the name of Dave E set me straight that the players union did this to themselves by agreeing to what is essentially a salary cap. I hope this doesn't lead to a work stoppage, but I bet it will in a few years.




CPAMAN -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/3/2018 2:06:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Oh, and his saber-rattling about player resolve comes the day after one of the foot soldiers, Brandon Moss, blamed the union itself for getting rolled in the last Collective Bargaining Agreement. That was the deal that stiffened the soft cap created by a luxury tax threshold that hasn’t come close to keeping up with growth in revenues and payrolls.

“Everybody wants to look up and scream, ‘collusion,’” Moss said. “Everybody wants to look up and scream, ‘This isn’t fair.’ But sooner or later, you have to take responsibility for a system you created for yourself. It’s our fault.”
The union lost the CBA negotiations because it was obsessed with “quality of life” issues, such as days off, empty seats on buses, and clubhouse chefs, and because many players railed against the idea of a worldwide draft—a huge red herring. The worldwide draft was a bluff; it’s too hard to get international communities and government agencies to cooperate on such a system. But when the owners essentially said, “Ok, you win, we’ll take the international draft off the table,” the union celebrated a Pyrrhic win: it “won” something that was never there and never would be there.
Economic issues? They took their eye off the ball, and the error is showing up on the scoreboard now that the intellect of front offices has risen to an all-time high.


-------------------------

Yup, I was wondering about collusion a month ago or so. An old friend by the name of Dave E set me straight that the players union did this to themselves by agreeing to what is essentially a salary cap. I hope this doesn't lead to a work stoppage, but I bet it will in a few years.


When the Icky Nolasco's of ML baseball are signing for ridiculous money, a correction was warranted. About time.




twinsfan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/4/2018 9:41:35 AM)

Eagles!!!!

Actually I barely care. But I see no reason to root for the miserable Belichick to win another SB. Nice to see an old-timey team with no SB wins get their first. And I'm a Nick Foles fan. Made me sick to see the disrespect he got from almost all Vikings fans leading into that game. It was completely unfounded and made us look like a bad and uneducated fan base.




sixthwi -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/5/2018 9:18:06 AM)

Rangers, Bartolo Colon Agree To Minor-League Deal. (Thank god!!!)




Phil Riewer -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/5/2018 9:35:12 AM)

The Joe Mauer contract plays into this....8/184 at his 27 year age has a factor on what is happening with contracts. Owners aren't going to keep overpaying in those not as productive years.

& then they signed Nolasco but that was a 4-5 year deal at least.




SoMnFan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/5/2018 9:36:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sixthwi

Rangers, Bartolo Colon Agree To Minor-League Deal. (Thank god!!!)

Dodged that bullet
As you say, thank God!!




CPAMAN -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/5/2018 10:16:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

The Joe Mauer contract plays into this....8/184 at his 27 year age has a factor on what is happening with contracts. Owners aren't going to keep overpaying in those not as productive years.

& then they signed Nolasco but that was a 4-5 year deal at least.


But Justin insists that those long-term contracts are justified because the players were grossly underpaid while they were productive and getting ML minimum or marginal salaries.




McMurfy -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/5/2018 10:44:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sixthwi

Rangers, Bartolo Colon Agree To Minor-League Deal. (Thank god!!!)



We can still sign him in July when he’s released.




McMurfy -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/5/2018 10:45:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

The Joe Mauer contract plays into this....8/184 at his 27 year age has a factor on what is happening with contracts. Owners aren't going to keep overpaying in those not as productive years.

& then they signed Nolasco but that was a 4-5 year deal at least.


But Justin insists that those long-term contracts are justified because the players were grossly underpaid while they were productive and getting ML minimum or marginal salaries.




Yep,
Justin used that one a bunch.




Phil Riewer -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/5/2018 11:01:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy
quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer
The Joe Mauer contract plays into this....8/184 at his 27 year age has a factor on what is happening with contracts. Owners aren't going to keep overpaying in those not as productive years.
& then they signed Nolasco but that was a 4-5 year deal at least.

But Justin insists that those long-term contracts are justified because the players were grossly underpaid while they were productive and getting ML minimum or marginal salaries.

Yep,
Justin used that one a bunch.


They did get Joe Cheap for a few years but then overpaid for 4-5 of these last 8 years. I could see the collect bargaining agreement changing from 6 to 5 years of control but the owners have given rookies more money too....it is those late bloomers or holders on that will not see as much money but who wants to pay Todd Frazier 10 million to hit .230.

The guys that are hurting in this agreement is the late bloomers like JD Martinez and Josh Donaldson. They find their stride when they are 27 and they can't get paid for a few years.




MDK -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/5/2018 12:07:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

The Joe Mauer contract plays into this....8/184 at his 27 year age has a factor on what is happening with contracts. Owners aren't going to keep overpaying in those not as productive years.

& then they signed Nolasco but that was a 4-5 year deal at least.


But Justin insists that those long-term contracts are justified because the players were grossly underpaid while they were productive and getting ML minimum or marginal salaries.




Yep,
Justin used that one a bunch.


Justin, Jason, Dustin..........?????????????????




Phil Riewer -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/5/2018 12:42:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MDK
quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy
quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer
The Joe Mauer contract plays into this....8/184 at his 27 year age has a factor on what is happening with contracts. Owners aren't going to keep overpaying in those not as productive years.
& then they signed Nolasco but that was a 4-5 year deal at least.

But Justin insists that those long-term contracts are justified because the players were grossly underpaid while they were productive and getting ML minimum or marginal salaries.

Yep,
Justin used that one a bunch.

Justin, Jason, Dustin..........?????????????????


Close enough....[:D] When is he doing his drive bys?




Trekgeekscott -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/5/2018 12:51:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: sixthwi

Rangers, Bartolo Colon Agree To Minor-League Deal. (Thank god!!!)



We can still sign him in July when he’s released.



We can sign him in March when he's released.




CPAMAN -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/5/2018 3:54:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: MDK
quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy
quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer
The Joe Mauer contract plays into this....8/184 at his 27 year age has a factor on what is happening with contracts. Owners aren't going to keep overpaying in those not as productive years.
& then they signed Nolasco but that was a 4-5 year deal at least.

But Justin insists that those long-term contracts are justified because the players were grossly underpaid while they were productive and getting ML minimum or marginal salaries.

Yep,
Justin used that one a bunch.

Justin, Jason, Dustin..........?????????????????


Close enough....[:D] When is he doing his drive bys?


Yeah, they are so fast and infrequent I forgot who it was that I missed. [:D]




CPAMAN -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/5/2018 3:55:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: sixthwi

Rangers, Bartolo Colon Agree To Minor-League Deal. (Thank god!!!)



We can still sign him in July when he’s released.



We can sign him in March when he's released.


That could become the big off-season FA starting pitcher acquisition. And the Pohlads will love the price tag.




twinsfan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/7/2018 2:15:14 PM)

Russell Wilson has been traded to the Yankees.




SoMnFan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/7/2018 2:22:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Russell Wilson has been traded to the Yankees.

[:-]. Yanks don't need a QB!




Mr. Ed -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/7/2018 2:28:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Russell Wilson has been traded to the Yankees.

[:-]. Yanks don't need a QB!


They do, since Jeter retired, no one has QB'd that team like he did.




SoMnFan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/12/2018 8:45:34 PM)

The Minnesota Sheople would have a coronary over this if we had a bad boy like Goose in the fold.

The YES Network was first to report Monday that Gossage, who pitched parts of 22 seasons in the majors and spent seven years with the Yankees, would not be at spring training as a guest instructor this season.
Gossage, when contacted later Monday by the Daily News, told the newspaper that George Steinbrenner is "rolling over in his grave" and said that the late Yankees owner would have fired Cashman "10 years ago."
"He would've been gone 10 years ago if George was still around," Gossage said. "He'd have been gone when he jumped out of that f---ing airplane. Do you think he's a good f---ing baseball guy, really? He doesn't believe in f---ing coaching."
Gossage told the paper that he had a falling out with Cashman during spring training. Gossage said that he asked the GM why their relationship had soured but that Cashman "didn't answer ... he didn't say a word."
Gossage, 66, has made headlines in recent years for making controversial comments at Yankees spring training. He said last year that it was "insulting" to him to be compared to Mariano Rivera because he pitched multiple innings per outing while Rivera was utilized primarily as a one-inning closer.
Gossage also ruffled feathers in 2016 when he called former Blue Jays slugger Jose Bautista a "f---ing disgrace to the game" and blasted analytics-inclined executives as a "bunch of f---ing nerds running the game."
Gossage recorded 310 career saves and was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2008. He was the closer for the Yankees' World Series-winning team in 1978.




SoMnFan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (2/12/2018 8:53:07 PM)

$43 mil apparently doesn't buy happiness.

SAN DIEGO -- Former All-Star pitcher Esteban Loaiza has been arrested on suspicion of trafficking drugs after packages containing a white powder believed to be cocaine were found at a home he rented in Southern California, officials said Monday.

Loaiza, 46, was booked Friday on charges involving the possession, transport and sale of 20 kilograms (44 pounds) of suspected cocaine worth an estimated $500,000, according to the San Diego County Sheriff's Department.

Loaiza played for numerous teams between 1995 and 2008, starting with the Pittsburgh Pirates and concluding with his second stint with the Chicago White Sox. He had a 21-9 record with the White Sox in 2003 and started in the All-Star Game that year.

It was not immediately known if Loaiza had hired a lawyer, and the former player could not be reached to comment. He was being held Monday in San Diego's South Bay Detention facility for lack of $200,000 bail pending a court appearance on Wednesday.

Loaiza's agent, John Boggs, told the San Francisco Chronicle that he had no information about the arrest and that he has not spoken to Loaiza recently. He said that Loaiza had called his office early last week but Boggs was unavailable at the time.

"I am shocked and saddened by the news and had no indication he would ever be in this type of situation," Boggs said in a text to the newspaper. "I don't know how he would get himself involved in this, so it's difficult to even comment on it."

Officers stopped Loaiza for a minor traffic infraction Friday after he left the home he started renting recently in the Pacific Coast community of Imperial Beach, along the U.S.-Mexico border. Authorities had the vehicle under surveillance on suspicion it was used for smuggling drugs.

When they searched the vehicle, they found a sophisticated compartment used to conceal contraband, authorities said. That led them to obtain a search warrant for Loaiza's rental home, where they found the packages of drugs, according to investigators.

The packages containing a white powder are still being tested but are believed to be cocaine, said San Diego Sheriff's Lt. Jason Vickery.

Loaiza was born in Tijuana, Mexico, and was married for two years to the late Mexican-American singer Jenni Rivera. She filed for divorce shortly before she died in a plane crash in 2012.

The 43-year-old Rivera was known as the "Diva de la Banda" and died as her career was peaking. She was perhaps the most successful female singer in grupero, a male-dominated Mexico regional style, sold more than 15 million records, and moved into acting and reality television.

Loaiza sued the aircraft's owners in 2014 for wrongful death but Rivera's relatives accused him of trying to profit from her death. He denied the accusations and later retracted his lawsuit. He made just over $43.7 million in his major league career.




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