RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (Full Version)

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David Levine -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/28/2016 2:43:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

OK Glaring deficiencies.

Who could possibly predict the Oline catastrophe this team has endured?

Seriously?

When they were opening camp they had Oline that was supposed to look like this:

Kalil Boone, Berger/Sullivan, Harris, Loadholt
Before camp can begin Harris gets a mysterious head ailment, Loahholt retires.
They thought well Fusco looked good at RG before they moved him to LG. With Boone back they can move him there...Not been so good.
Smith plays about half the season before he's lost for the year.
Kalil plays three games and probably should have only played 2. done for the year.
Berger went down on Thanksgiving.
So did our THIRD option at RT Sirles.
Long was signed at the bye and looked rusty to be sure but just as he was shaking off that rust...bam! there goes the achilles.
By the end of the game on Thursday we were literally on our fourth option at RT. Third at LT, Backup C. a underperforming schlep at RG and Boone our big name free agent.

Kalil, Harris Loadolt, Long, Sirles, Berger, Boone missed time too, No team has ever had the problems we've had.

It shouldn't be Speilman fired, it should be Sugerman for not keeping these guys healthy.


Lots of bodies, not much talent. Poor allocation of resources.

Kalil: Was likely playing his last year for us even before he got hurt. Only picked up his 5th year option because of complete lack of other options.
Boone: Nice pick-up of a complimentary player. Solid, but only as good as the guys around him.
Berger: Solid stopgap. Ideally a back-up G/C at this point.
Harris: No idea when they first learned about his issues. Predraft? Pre-Free Agency?
Fusco: Gamble that moving back to the right would bring back his 2013 production.
Loadholt: Odds of him not retiring were almost nil. Guys that size don't tend to recover from the injury he had.
Smith: Bust. Lazy and Bengals had no interest in bringing him back. Had to sign a 1-year prove it deal. Poor man's McKinney.
Clemmings: Athletic ability but incredibly raw. Was awful as a rookie.

Everyone else was completely untested.

So the only "sure things" we had were a 34 year-old Center, Alex Boone, A bottom 3rd (at best) LT and maybe a 4th year Guard that only last year flashed signs of being a player.



Kalil - even you say there were no better options available...
Berger is the stopgap for Easton who they like and are grooming to replace him in a year or two if not sooner.
Fusco was good in 2014 at RG. It's why they thought they could move him to LG, but that destroyed him. Figured moving him back might bring back that magic. Didn't but it wasn't a bad idea. and it was to back up Harris who was very good last year...but this head ailment destroyed that..

Loadholt you are probably right about...but they did try to hedge their bets with Clemmings returning and signing Smith.

It's a mess, but you have to really look at what was available, how much cap space we really had to work with, and injuries to other players too, like Bridgewater who was more mobile than Bradford and Peterson who can at least break an occasional tackle...

They need to address the Oline in a major way this offseason. Like half the draft.

I hope they are scouting the shit out of Oline in college this year.


I say we had no better options than Kalil, because we never considered competition for him, or were able to develop any other OTs. And it would be great if some of the 7th round or undrafted guys we're "grooming" work out, but the odds aren't great. For every Matt Birk, there are literally thousands of guys who don't make it.

And that's all because Spielman has put OLine as his lowest priority for years. 2 picks in the Top 3 rounds in a decade. And bargain shopping free agency.

(It was OLine and LB, but Zimmer fixed the latter).




Trekgeekscott -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/28/2016 3:03:06 PM)

I have believed for the longest time that when building an offense it all starts with the five guys at the line and the QB behind them. I do think Speilman needs to do more regarding the line.

But there is really only so much one can do in a given year. There is only so many late retirements, mysterious ailments and season ending injuries that a team can endure and still succeed. He may have had a plan to address other positions on the line in the next couple offseasons.

Kalil turned out to be something of a Dud, but he was widely considered the best Olineman in that draft by the scouts of many teams. Sometimes you get a gem sometimes you get a bust. And it is getting harder to judge Olinemen. Most don't put a hand down in college and have to learn to play that way in the pros. We need five lunchpail grinders. five solid guys, not all pros, just solid and this team with its defense wins 13 games.

Could Speilman have done more over the years? Maybe, but he had other holes to fill. and he has been filling them. I refuse to put this catastrophe all on him because of the ailments, injuries retirements (and the timing of them) as well as salary cap issues etc...




Mr. Ed -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/28/2016 3:11:37 PM)

Kalil was terrible last year.
If the Vikes thought that injury healing would make him better,they were Twins-like stupid thinking.




David Levine -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/28/2016 3:13:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

I have believed for the longest time that when building an offense it all starts with the five guys at the line and the QB behind them. I do think Speilman needs to do more regarding the line.

But there is really only so much one can do in a given year. There is only so many late retirements, mysterious ailments and season ending injuries that a team can endure and still succeed. He may have had a plan to address other positions on the line in the next couple offseasons.

Kalil turned out to be something of a Dud, but he was widely considered the best Olineman in that draft by the scouts of many teams. Sometimes you get a gem sometimes you get a bust. And it is getting harder to judge Olinemen. Most don't put a hand down in college and have to learn to play that way in the pros. We need five lunchpail grinders. five solid guys, not all pros, just solid and this team with its defense wins 13 games.

Could Speilman have done more over the years? Maybe, but he had other holes to fill. and he has been filling them. I refuse to put this catastrophe all on him because of the ailments, injuries retirements (and the timing of them) as well as salary cap issues etc...


Its not about this year. Its about all the years that he's ignored the line.

I still don't believe we have a good line if no one had gotten hurt this year. It might not be the dumpster fire that it is now, but it would still be bad.

Other teams build lines. Its not some impossible task. Finding linemen is not a crapshoot, its having the right scouts/people in place to find them. Some teams (like Dallas) use a ton of high picks. Others like GB have a very good line built around one 1st round pick and everyone else is from the 4th round or later.

Yeah, it sucks that Kalil busted out. I don't blame Spielman at all for drafting him. I blame him for not addressing it for 5 years. Kind of like how we never brought in real competition for Ponder - or even tried to develop anyone legit behind him.




Trekgeekscott -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/28/2016 3:30:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine


Its not about this year. Its about all the years that he's ignored the line.




But again, it's not like he was doing nothing for those years. He did fill some other big holes like LB and shored up the DLine and secondary. This team was a dumpster fire just three years ago and until the Oline debacle this year that he has tried to address it was a remarkable turnaround into contention. but Walsh kept missing kicks. The Oline kept having more injuries. Your biggest offensive threat (and other teams still had to gameplan for him, goes down in week two. Your franchise QB who in preseason had the look of a guy that everything was starting to click and slow down blows his knee catastrophically. Speilman did great addressing that nightmare.

You guys act like the Oline is the only problem this team has had for years and he's just twiddling his thumbs. There's only so much cap space and plenty of holes to fill besides Oline. I agree he could have done more. But I don't blame him anywhere nearly as much as others do for this debacle.

The answer isn't always firing and starting over. This defense is bordering on elite now because of his drafting (it helps to have a head coach that he hired, who knows what he wants in defensive players). Now we need that same focus on offense and I hope Zimmer is willing to let Speilman concentrate on offensive linemen and RBs etc this offseason.




twinsfan -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/28/2016 3:31:57 PM)

Stop fighting please.




Trekgeekscott -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/28/2016 3:33:25 PM)

Matt, there is a difference between debating and fighting.

I don't see any fighting here.




Mr. Ed -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/28/2016 3:52:28 PM)

I just don't see how the offense will be improved without removing key defensive parts, given the cap restrictions, younger guys looking for their big payday,and such.




SoMnFan -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/29/2016 10:28:02 AM)

Rumors of the death of the Packers and Rodgers were, as usual, exaggerated and premature.....




David Levine -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/29/2016 10:32:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Rumors of the death of the Packers and Rodgers were, as usual, exaggerated and premature.....


Or the crowning of the Wentz-led Eagles was exaggerated and premature. Lost 4 of their last 5, 6 of 8.




SoMnFan -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/30/2016 2:01:43 PM)

The Cubs. [sm=vomit.gif]
The Royals [sm=vomit.gif]
The Cavs [sm=vomit.gif]
The Big Ten. [sm=vomit.gif]

Tell me again why we are supposed to be patient MoFos here?
[X(]




SoMnFan -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/30/2016 2:02:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Rumors of the death of the Packers and Rodgers were, as usual, exaggerated and premature.....


Or the crowning of the Wentz-led Eagles was exaggerated and premature. Lost 4 of their last 5, 6 of 8.

Wentz IMO, is going to be a nice long-careered NFL starter.
There. I said it.
It's not a big stretch.




David Levine -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/30/2016 2:06:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Rumors of the death of the Packers and Rodgers were, as usual, exaggerated and premature.....


Or the crowning of the Wentz-led Eagles was exaggerated and premature. Lost 4 of their last 5, 6 of 8.

Wentz IMO, is going to be a nice long-careered NFL starter.
There. I said it.
It's not a big stretch.


I think so too. I like him a lot.

But neither he, nor the team are ready right now. I think they surprised the league, then the league caught up, and now they're in a bit of a freefall.




SoMnFan -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/30/2016 2:09:54 PM)

Agreed.
Still think we'll see a Prescott set-back starting soon.
Hopefully realllllllllllll soon. [&:]




MDK -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/30/2016 2:25:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Agreed.
Still think we'll see a Prescott set-back starting soon.
Hopefully realllllllllllll soon. [&:]


In about 30 hours.......




Corleone -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/30/2016 2:28:40 PM)

10-1 or not, Dallas is overrated.

Vikings will win tomorrow night.




SoMnFan -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/30/2016 2:30:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Corleone

10-1 or not, Dallas is overrated.

Vikings will win tomorrow night.

Pretty good match ups favoring our side, agreed.
And still, even today, it's a game of team emotion.
Can a team feel any more backed into a corner than our guys?
Hope not.




Mr. Ed -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/30/2016 2:38:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Corleone

10-1 or not, Dallas is overrated.

Vikings will win tomorrow night.

Pretty good match ups favoring our side, agreed.
And still, even today, it's a game of team emotion.
Can a team feel any more backed into a corner than our guys?
Hope not.


I see this one in the L column, sorry.

THey'll need the offense to contribute. And it's just not happening.

Dallas will try to control it w/Elliot, and I expect they will.
MN will get the ball down 3-0 and go 3-out, then 10-0, 3 out, and so on.




Jeff Jesser -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/30/2016 5:27:04 PM)

Sadly, agree Ed. I mentioned about a month ago that Dallas' strengths negate ours. I fear their OLine just shuts down our DLine early. That will get our ends (looking at you Grif) to start 'looping' to get to the QB. That will open up lanes for Prescott to sneak through and use his legs.

I don't even worry about our O anymore. I just assume they won't do jack shit and will be pleasantly surprised if I'm wrong. This game is a win if the D forces TO's and we get scores off them or CPatt houses 1. If those perfect storms don't happen we don't have enough on O. Same ole story.




Corleone -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/30/2016 5:59:27 PM)

Desperate team, at home, on national television, everyone counting them out...I see a 20-17 type of win for the guys in purple.

(Absolutely hideous purple, BTW...seriously, wait until you see the monstrosities they'll be wearing tomorrow [sm=vomit.gif])

Then, they'll probably lay a massive egg in Jacksonville. [&:]




Steve Lentz -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/30/2016 8:17:55 PM)

I really think Dallas is an extremely tough matchup for us. A very mobile QB that can throw and the best RB in the game.




Mr. Ed -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (11/30/2016 10:04:44 PM)

And Zimmer may not be available. Emergency eye surgery.




JT2 -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (12/1/2016 12:29:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

I really think Dallas is an extremely tough matchup for us. A very mobile QB that can throw and the best RB in the game.



I think Bell and Johnson belong in that conversation as well.




Mr. Ed -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (12/1/2016 8:53:03 PM)

I can't believe that one of the extra linemen can't pass block better than Clemmings.

And I can't believe the Vikings continue to let him try 1-on-1 blocking with any defensive end.

Foolish beyond words.
The raiders get it.Sometimes they use an extra lineman and go with 6 in pass blocking.

They don't try anything to help. It's pathetic. Now Bradford's hurt.




bstinger -> RE: Vikes talk for Twins Fans (12/1/2016 9:59:13 PM)

I've been a closet Thelen supporter for a long time. But tonight it looks like he'll be the goat.




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