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RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 12:41:48 PM   
McMurfy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

26-year Total 1989–2016 878 wins 1366 losses .391 winning percentage

I'm guessing the Flip coached years were better



They were, but you're still aiming low.

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Post #: 101
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 12:42:30 PM   
kgdabom

 

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SD

< Message edited by kgdabom -- 5/16/2017 12:43:48 PM >


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Post #: 102
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 12:43:06 PM   
kgdabom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

26-year Total 1989–2016 878 wins 1366 losses .391 winning percentage

I'm guessing the Flip coached years were better



They were, but you're still aiming low.

I looked it up for you. 427-392 and that includes his first year with the team and his first year back when he inherited shit teams.
Regardless that is a winning record with what you declared as one of the worst sports franchises in sports history. That is his what you called his big part of that.

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Post #: 103
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 12:44:57 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

He was a shit coach and a shit GM for a shit franchise

Only now after nearly 30 years is there a glimmer of hope.
Don't give me that Western Conference Final Crap.

Any objective obserever will tell you that the Minnesota Timberwolves have been one of the worst sports franchises ever.

Flip was a Big part of that.


Yup.

We've literally had 1 single season in our franchise's history where we've mattered.

One.

Lowest winning % of any NBA franchise. Missed the playoffs 20 of 28 years in a league where MORE THAN HALF of the teams get in.

Wasted the entire prime of an all-time player. A guy who single-handedly dragged his coach into the playoffs, but only 1 year was given actual NBA talent around him.

Credit to him for not screwing up arguably the easiest #1 pick since LeBron, but if it wasn't for us lucking into that #1 pick, there wouldn't be much about this franchise to be excited about.
Post #: 104
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 12:49:24 PM   
TJSweens


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Flip was a horrible coach. World class human being, but a horrible coach. The Wolves were chronic underachievers. He had KG, Billups, Szczerbiak and Brandon with serviceable role players and could never get out of the first round. In Detroit, he took over the defensive team of the decade that had been in the last 2 NBA finals, destroyed their defensive identity, had Ben Wallace in full rebellion after one year. Their level of play fell off and he was fired there too. Randy Whittman did a better job with Washington than Flip. The hallmarks of his teams were bad defense and long range 2 point jump shots.

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Post #: 105
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 12:54:23 PM   
McMurfy


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Don't get me wrong, the Timberwolves are still my favorite team, it just hasn't been all that pretty.

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Post #: 106
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 1:07:15 PM   
Phil Riewer


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Thibs is one of the best coaches in the NBA and a better talent evaluator----Flip is no where near that and McHale was even worse. At best McHale and Flip were average. The thing that has become more than apparent to me is that McHale should have had the axe first.

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Post #: 107
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 1:11:12 PM   
TJSweens


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Flip at least showed a willingness to listen to his subordinates. That was why he took Towns in the end. McHale didn't listen to anybody. Everybody gave their input and then McHale did whatever the hell he wanted.

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Post #: 108
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 1:42:49 PM   
kgdabom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Thibs is one of the best coaches in the NBA and a better talent evaluator----Flip is no where near that and McHale was even worse. At best McHale and Flip were average. The thing that has become more than apparent to me is that McHale should have had the axe first.

If Thibs is a good talent evaluator why didn't he make the trade for Jimmy Butler instead of stubbornly holding on to Kris Dunn?

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Post #: 109
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 1:46:30 PM   
Phil Riewer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Thibs is one of the best coaches in the NBA and a better talent evaluator----Flip is no where near that and McHale was even worse. At best McHale and Flip were average. The thing that has become more than apparent to me is that McHale should have had the axe first.

If Thibs is a good talent evaluator why didn't he make the trade for Jimmy Butler instead of stubbornly holding on to Kris Dunn?


U R kidding yourself if you think we could have had Butler for just Dunn....I heard Wiggins/Dunn even though many thought Lavine/Dunn was enough.

Read back as to why Thibs was fired...he wanted to draft Draymond Green in 2012 and a couple others over the years that the GM wouldn't take or agree with....they drafted Marquise Teague instead. Imagine Butler and Green together. Created the rift between Thibs and FO.....

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 5/16/2017 1:52:48 PM >


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Post #: 110
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 2:02:44 PM   
TJSweens


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The prevailing rumor was Butler for Wiggins and LaVine.

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Post #: 111
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 2:07:30 PM   
kgdabom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Thibs is one of the best coaches in the NBA and a better talent evaluator----Flip is no where near that and McHale was even worse. At best McHale and Flip were average. The thing that has become more than apparent to me is that McHale should have had the axe first.

If Thibs is a good talent evaluator why didn't he make the trade for Jimmy Butler instead of stubbornly holding on to Kris Dunn?


U R kidding yourself if you think we could have had Butler for just Dunn....I heard Wiggins/Dunn even though many thought Lavine/Dunn was enough.

Read back as to why Thibs was fired...he wanted to draft Draymond Green in 2012 and a couple others over the years that the GM wouldn't take or agree with....they drafted Marquise Teague instead. Imagine Butler and Green together. Created the rift between Thibs and FO.....

I didn't say for just Dunn. Hindsight being 20/20 I think we would be looking a lot better if we had made the LaVine/Dunn trade. Thibs is probably a pretty good talent evaluator, but with Dunn he should have dealed. It seems like a lot of teams would have given better value for Dunn than we would get now.

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Post #: 112
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 2:08:19 PM   
kgdabom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

The prevailing rumor was Butler for Wiggins and LaVine.

No it was Dunn with one of them. Chicago wanted Dunn big time.

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Post #: 113
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 2:18:47 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

The prevailing rumor was Butler for Wiggins and LaVine.


I believe it was Wiggins and the 5th pick (possibly for Dunn to replace Rose), but that likely wasn't going to be enough because:

A) Butler is a legit superstar on an undermarket value contract. While Wiggins still needs to prove that he's more than Rudy Gay or Jeff Green, and Dunn was the 5th pick in a very weak draft.

B) GarPax are incredibly petty and have such a bad relationship with Thibs that they weren't going to make any trade with him that they could possibly lose.

< Message edited by David Levine -- 5/16/2017 2:55:24 PM >
Post #: 114
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 2:24:29 PM   
bohumm

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach

There are a lot of front office people who make their best moves by not screwing up an obvious pick.


And those are the front offices that never rise beyond mediocre.

I agree with you here. If you want to judge some one based on rumors. That is your right, but it under cuts your analysis. Any body can rumor any thing.

It was worse than what David wrote. Out of respect for the dead, I'll leave it at that.
Post #: 115
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 2:24:42 PM   
kgdabom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

The prevailing rumor was Butler for Wiggins and LaVine.


I believe it was Wiggins and the 5th pick (possibly for Dunn to replace Rose), but that likely wasn't going to be enough because:

A) Butler is a legit superstar on an undermarket value contract. While Wiggins still needs to prove that he's more Rudy Gay or Jeff Green, and Dunn was the 5th pick in a very weak draft.

B) GarPax are incredibly petty and have such a bad relationship with Thibs that they weren't going to make any trade with him that they could possibly lose.

It sounded like they were offering that and we refused. That of course is strictly rumor and innuendo.

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Post #: 116
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 2:39:58 PM   
Phil Riewer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm
quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine
quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach
There are a lot of front office people who make their best moves by not screwing up an obvious pick.

And those are the front offices that never rise beyond mediocre.

I agree with you here. If you want to judge some one based on rumors. That is your right, but it under cuts your analysis. Any body can rumor any thing.

It was worse than what David wrote. Out of respect for the dead, I'll leave it at that.


There were a lot of things that went wrong...timing of KG's contract caused Marbury to get jealous. Malik Sealey getting killed just when KG and him were forming something. Many things like that happened (Gugliotta leaving because of Marbury). Non trade of Gugliotta to the Lakers....

The drafting of JR Rider, Donyell Marshall, Paul Grant, etc. were not ideal for sure but there was just a constant mess that wouldn't stop. Signing Kandi, Joe Smith, and trading for Blount among other things.

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 5/16/2017 2:43:19 PM >


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Post #: 117
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 2:58:43 PM   
David Levine


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I'd offer them Wiggins and Dunn right now and they'd still likely refuse.

If we don't move up, I'd offer Wiggins and our pick. And they'd still likely refuse.

We were never close to a deal for Butler. If Wiggins and Dunn would've been the asking price, Thibs would've jumped all over it.
Post #: 118
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 3:00:28 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach

There are a lot of front office people who make their best moves by not screwing up an obvious pick.


And those are the front offices that never rise beyond mediocre.

I agree with you here. If you want to judge some one based on rumors. That is your right, but it under cuts your analysis. Any body can rumor any thing.

It was worse than what David wrote. Out of respect for the dead, I'll leave it at that.


If Bob says it, I believe it 100%. He has more first hand insight into the Flip regime than the rest of us (and probably all the local writers) combined.
Post #: 119
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 4:02:21 PM   
Sandman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach

There are a lot of front office people who make their best moves by not screwing up an obvious pick.

And those are the front offices that never rise beyond mediocre.

I agree with you here. If you want to judge some one based on rumors. That is your right, but it under cuts your analysis. Any body can rumor any thing.

It was worse than what David wrote. Out of respect for the dead, I'll leave it at that.

I don't think we have to apologize because he's dead. We all loved him. He was a great man. He just wasn't that good at coaching or talent evaluation. What TJ said is entirely true. He messed up alot of things. His time in Detroit was probably his most glaring failure.

Not many people mention the Pek contract. Another disaster. He already knew Pek was injury prone. The whole league backed off. Flip was bidding against himself on Pek's outrageous contract demands. That ended up being crippling.
Post #: 120
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 5:37:16 PM   
wrh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

He was a shit coach and a shit GM for a shit franchise

Only now after nearly 30 years is there a glimmer of hope.
Don't give me that Western Conference Final Crap.

Any objective obserever will tell you that the Minnesota Timberwolves have been one of the worst sports franchises ever.

Flip was a Big part of that.


Yup.

We've literally had 1 single season in our franchise's history where we've mattered.

One.

Lowest winning % of any NBA franchise. Missed the playoffs 20 of 28 years in a league where MORE THAN HALF of the teams get in.

Wasted the entire prime of an all-time player. A guy who single-handedly dragged his coach into the playoffs, but only 1 year was given actual NBA talent around him.

Credit to him for not screwing up arguably the easiest #1 pick since LeBron, but if it wasn't for us lucking into that #1 pick, there wouldn't be much about this franchise to be excited about.


I don't think it is fair to say we had only one season that mattered. TWolves screwed up more things than they should have, and fate dealt them some very unfortunate situations, not the least of which was that for more than a couple of years in our playoff run the four best teams in the whole league were ahead of us in the Western Conference. They were best not by a little but by a lot. Difficult to win a first round playoff when your having to face the cream of the whole league.

And by the way while it is Managements job to build the team and the coach's to see that it comes together, the players we had from KG on down were not free of responsibilities and some blame. Guess that is why only one team wins the championship.
Post #: 121
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 6:15:33 PM   
Bill Jandro

 

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For the most part this franchise has been a grease fire.

The Joe Smith debacle

Trading Roy for Foye

McFale was an absolute terrible GM

For being in the lottery for decades, and only netting 3 star players is the definition that even a blind squirrell can find a nut once every 10 years.

Not sure if Grampa Glen suffered a concussion or what happened. But things are looking much better.

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Post #: 122
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 6:30:07 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wrh

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

He was a shit coach and a shit GM for a shit franchise

Only now after nearly 30 years is there a glimmer of hope.
Don't give me that Western Conference Final Crap.

Any objective obserever will tell you that the Minnesota Timberwolves have been one of the worst sports franchises ever.

Flip was a Big part of that.


Yup.

We've literally had 1 single season in our franchise's history where we've mattered.

One.

Lowest winning % of any NBA franchise. Missed the playoffs 20 of 28 years in a league where MORE THAN HALF of the teams get in.

Wasted the entire prime of an all-time player. A guy who single-handedly dragged his coach into the playoffs, but only 1 year was given actual NBA talent around him.

Credit to him for not screwing up arguably the easiest #1 pick since LeBron, but if it wasn't for us lucking into that #1 pick, there wouldn't be much about this franchise to be excited about.


I don't think it is fair to say we had only one season that mattered. TWolves screwed up more things than they should have, and fate dealt them some very unfortunate situations, not the least of which was that for more than a couple of years in our playoff run the four best teams in the whole league were ahead of us in the Western Conference. They were best not by a little but by a lot. Difficult to win a first round playoff when your having to face the cream of the whole league.

And by the way while it is Managements job to build the team and the coach's to see that it comes together, the players we had from KG on down were not free of responsibilities and some blame. Guess that is why only one team wins the championship.


Even those 4 years where we 47-51 win teams, we got knocked off 4-2, 3-1, 3-1 and 3-0.

We forced a "deciding game" one time in the 7 years leading up to Sam and Spree.

We didn't matter. We were a nice regular season team that was not built (either in talent or scheme) to compete in the playoffs.

Good teams and good coaches occasionally win a series they aren't "supposed to".

And I'm fine with putting some blame on players. But you also have to take into account who acquired and coached them.
Post #: 123
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 6:34:51 PM   
shakeywalton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

If Wiggins and Dunn would've been the asking price, Thibs would've jumped all over it.


I don't agree with that. Especially when you look at Wiggins/Dunn contract situations and how long we can expect to keep them here compared to Butler.
Post #: 124
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 5/16/2017 6:40:40 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: shakeywalton

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

If Wiggins and Dunn would've been the asking price, Thibs would've jumped all over it.


I don't agree with that. Especially when you look at Wiggins/Dunn contract situations and how long we can expect to keep them here compared to Butler.


We would've been trading for a 26 year-old Butler with 3 well under market value years remaining on his contract.

Wiggins will be making more than Butler on the contract he signs this coming season!
Post #: 125
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