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RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/25/2017 1:31:02 PM   
Brad H


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: shakeywalton

I find it amusing that the the Lakers think every FA wants to play for them and that's their method to rebuilding or re-tooling.


It used to be that way. A long, long time ago.

Have they attracted a top flight FA other than Dwight Howard since Shaq (over 20 years ago)?

Maybe I've been too hard on Kupchak.

2 titles since end of Shaq era without any marquee FAs. Not bad.

It was the Gasol trade that did it. Marc ended up being real good, but at the time of the trade Pau was far superior.


That's the thing with the Lakers in the past 20 years, as David was sort of alluding to. The Lakers' championships were orchestrated through trades, not free agency. Becuz the salary cap was lower and managed different, the Lakers couldn't just sign marquee free agents; they had money tied up in existing players. The only time they had money to spend was when they re-upped Kobe Bryant, after he flirted with joining the Clippers.

The Lakers won their three Shaq and Kobe rings, in large part to the Glen Rice trades. The 2nd two with Kobe were the result of the Shaq trade, though I thought the Ariza trade was huge in 2009.

Kupchak was masterful at trades. And it seemed easy and inevitable he'd always land another star. It just never happened after Howard. Thus began the spiral that we are now at the end of.

The NBA is way different than the NFL. There is only 5-10 marquee players in any given draft (on a good year), and those at the top have to live through free agency and trade. The league is built on stars. Those with the most stars win the title.

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Post #: 1301
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/25/2017 1:33:28 PM   
Brad H


Posts: 18765
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sandman

I watched some of the Pacers Cavs series. Where was Paul George?


2017 Playoffs-

Jimmy Butler 22 pts 7 reb 4 assists

Paul George 28 pts 9 reb 7 assists

Neither one had great talent around them...

Butler will have two other potential all stars surrounding him and a point guard to get him the ball in the best position to shoot. George, if he signs with the Lakers will not have this. Other may sign there, but others may sign with the Wolves as well.

Defenses will take away the weapons, leaving the career 37% shooter and 31% three-point shooter wide open.


You're going to lose a lot of games leaving a 37% three-point shooter wide-open.

Butler, Wiggins, Towns, Dieng and Jones were all above league-average on catch-and-shoot 3s last year. Even Rubio hits them at ~35% (and was over 40% post ASG last year).

Commit that much defense to stopping Butler Wiggins or KAT and you'll get hurt.

Even if Rubio was as bad a shooter as Brad is trying to pretend he is it's irrelevant. Defenses can't take away all three of KAT, Butler, and Wiggins. Especially not with possibly the best passer in the NBA getting the ball to them in great offensive position.

He is as bad of shooter as I am saying. He's borderline an awful shooter as an NBA player. Does he do some good things? Yes.

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Defense starts at the corners!
Post #: 1302
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/25/2017 1:34:03 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 70974
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: shakeywalton

I find it amusing that the the Lakers think every FA wants to play for them and that's their method to rebuilding or re-tooling.


It used to be that way. A long, long time ago.

Have they attracted a top flight FA other than Dwight Howard since Shaq (over 20 years ago)?

Maybe I've been too hard on Kupchak.

2 titles since end of Shaq era without any marquee FAs. Not bad.

It was the Gasol trade that did it. Marc ended up being real good, but at the time of the trade Pau was far superior.


That's the thing with the Lakers in the past 20 years, as David was sort of alluding to. The Lakers' championships were orchestrated through trades, not free agency. Becuz the salary cap was lower and managed different, the Lakers couldn't just sign marquee free agents; they had money tied up in existing players. The only time they had money to spend was when they re-upped Kobe Bryant, after he flirted with joining the Clippers.

The Lakers won their three Shaq and Kobe rings, in large part to the Glen Rice trades. The 2nd two with Kobe were the result of the Shaq trade, though I thought the Ariza trade was huge in 2009.

Kupchak was masterful at trades. And it seemed easy and inevitable he'd always land another star. It just never happened after Howard. Thus began the spiral that we are now at the end of.

The NBA is way different than the NFL. There is only 5-10 marquee players in any given draft (on a good year), and those at the top have to live through free agency and trade. The league is built on stars. Those with the most stars win the title.


You have a very low definition of "marquee".
Post #: 1303
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/25/2017 3:24:26 PM   
kurt bilben


Posts: 19046
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: socal as well
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: shakeywalton

I find it amusing that the the Lakers think every FA wants to play for them and that's their method to rebuilding or re-tooling.


It used to be that way. A long, long time ago.

Have they attracted a top flight FA other than Dwight Howard since Shaq (over 20 years ago)?

Maybe I've been too hard on Kupchak.

2 titles since end of Shaq era without any marquee FAs. Not bad.

It was the Gasol trade that did it. Marc ended up being real good, but at the time of the trade Pau was far superior.


That's the thing with the Lakers in the past 20 years, as David was sort of alluding to. The Lakers' championships were orchestrated through trades, not free agency. Becuz the salary cap was lower and managed different, the Lakers couldn't just sign marquee free agents; they had money tied up in existing players. The only time they had money to spend was when they re-upped Kobe Bryant, after he flirted with joining the Clippers.

The Lakers won their three Shaq and Kobe rings, in large part to the Glen Rice trades. The 2nd two with Kobe were the result of the Shaq trade, though I thought the Ariza trade was huge in 2009.

Kupchak was masterful at trades. And it seemed easy and inevitable he'd always land another star. It just never happened after Howard. Thus began the spiral that we are now at the end of.

The NBA is way different than the NFL. There is only 5-10 marquee players in any given draft (on a good year), and those at the top have to live through free agency and trade. The league is built on stars. Those with the most stars win the title.


You have a very low definition of "marquee".



In the so- called Golden age of the NBA in the 80's from 83-88 (including the supposed greatest draft ever 84) there probably wasn't one year you could get to 5 "Marquee" players other then maybe 84'.

In fact in 88' I don't think you can get to even one "Marquee" player.

Low bar indeed...

< Message edited by kurt bilben -- 6/25/2017 3:27:35 PM >
Post #: 1304
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/25/2017 8:28:26 PM   
Ian Joseph


Posts: 15343
Joined: 7/15/2007
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: shakeywalton

I find it amusing that the the Lakers think every FA wants to play for them and that's their method to rebuilding or re-tooling.


It used to be that way. A long, long time ago.

Have they attracted a top flight FA other than Dwight Howard since Shaq (over 20 years ago)?

Maybe I've been too hard on Kupchak.

2 titles since end of Shaq era without any marquee FAs. Not bad.

It was the Gasol trade that did it. Marc ended up being real good, but at the time of the trade Pau was far superior.


That's the thing with the Lakers in the past 20 years, as David was sort of alluding to. The Lakers' championships were orchestrated through trades, not free agency. Becuz the salary cap was lower and managed different, the Lakers couldn't just sign marquee free agents; they had money tied up in existing players. The only time they had money to spend was when they re-upped Kobe Bryant, after he flirted with joining the Clippers.

The Lakers won their three Shaq and Kobe rings, in large part to the Glen Rice trades. The 2nd two with Kobe were the result of the Shaq trade, though I thought the Ariza trade was huge in 2009.

Kupchak was masterful at trades. And it seemed easy and inevitable he'd always land another star. It just never happened after Howard. Thus began the spiral that we are now at the end of.



I guess that might all hold water if the biggest piece to the puzzle (Shaq) weren't acquired through free agency...

However, that was one instance 20 years ago.


Kobe is the most recent. There was a real nervousness he was leaving the Lakers.


Yes. You kept your own FA (that you could offer WAY more money to than anyone else). Welcome to the NBA....


You DO know he almost left, right. The thought was he would be immortal if he won a championship with the Clippers.

_____________________________

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Enjoy the process; crave the goal.

Believe.
Post #: 1305
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/25/2017 11:45:40 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 70974
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: shakeywalton

I find it amusing that the the Lakers think every FA wants to play for them and that's their method to rebuilding or re-tooling.


It used to be that way. A long, long time ago.

Have they attracted a top flight FA other than Dwight Howard since Shaq (over 20 years ago)?

Maybe I've been too hard on Kupchak.

2 titles since end of Shaq era without any marquee FAs. Not bad.

It was the Gasol trade that did it. Marc ended up being real good, but at the time of the trade Pau was far superior.


That's the thing with the Lakers in the past 20 years, as David was sort of alluding to. The Lakers' championships were orchestrated through trades, not free agency. Becuz the salary cap was lower and managed different, the Lakers couldn't just sign marquee free agents; they had money tied up in existing players. The only time they had money to spend was when they re-upped Kobe Bryant, after he flirted with joining the Clippers.

The Lakers won their three Shaq and Kobe rings, in large part to the Glen Rice trades. The 2nd two with Kobe were the result of the Shaq trade, though I thought the Ariza trade was huge in 2009.

Kupchak was masterful at trades. And it seemed easy and inevitable he'd always land another star. It just never happened after Howard. Thus began the spiral that we are now at the end of.



I guess that might all hold water if the biggest piece to the puzzle (Shaq) weren't acquired through free agency...

However, that was one instance 20 years ago.


Kobe is the most recent. There was a real nervousness he was leaving the Lakers.


Yes. You kept your own FA (that you could offer WAY more money to than anyone else). Welcome to the NBA....


You DO know he almost left, right. The thought was he would be immortal if he won a championship with the Clippers.


Yes. You ALMOST but DIDN'T lose a FA. He decided to take the extra money and stay.
Post #: 1306
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/26/2017 10:36:39 AM   
kgdabom

 

Posts: 29444
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: shakeywalton

I find it amusing that the the Lakers think every FA wants to play for them and that's their method to rebuilding or re-tooling.


It used to be that way. A long, long time ago.

Have they attracted a top flight FA other than Dwight Howard since Shaq (over 20 years ago)?

Maybe I've been too hard on Kupchak.

2 titles since end of Shaq era without any marquee FAs. Not bad.

It was the Gasol trade that did it. Marc ended up being real good, but at the time of the trade Pau was far superior.


That's the thing with the Lakers in the past 20 years, as David was sort of alluding to. The Lakers' championships were orchestrated through trades, not free agency. Becuz the salary cap was lower and managed different, the Lakers couldn't just sign marquee free agents; they had money tied up in existing players. The only time they had money to spend was when they re-upped Kobe Bryant, after he flirted with joining the Clippers.

The Lakers won their three Shaq and Kobe rings, in large part to the Glen Rice trades. The 2nd two with Kobe were the result of the Shaq trade, though I thought the Ariza trade was huge in 2009.

Kupchak was masterful at trades. And it seemed easy and inevitable he'd always land another star. It just never happened after Howard. Thus began the spiral that we are now at the end of.



I guess that might all hold water if the biggest piece to the puzzle (Shaq) weren't acquired through free agency...

However, that was one instance 20 years ago.


Kobe is the most recent. There was a real nervousness he was leaving the Lakers.


Yes. You kept your own FA (that you could offer WAY more money to than anyone else). Welcome to the NBA....


You DO know he almost left, right. The thought was he would be immortal if he won a championship with the Clippers.


Yes. You ALMOST but DIDN'T lose a FA. He decided to take the extra money and stay.

Ian DL has me on ignore, but I think the point he is mildly rudely trying to make is that the Lakers keeping their own player when they have advantages to do so doesn't show any greatness of their front office.
You of course are simply trying to point out that they did a good job in keeping Kobe rather than let him get away.

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So let it be done."
Post #: 1307
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/26/2017 1:01:53 PM   
Ian Joseph


Posts: 15343
Joined: 7/15/2007
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline
David and I agree on some basketball things to a point and disagree on others, but in both instances, we are looking at alot of it from a different philosophical viewpoint. So even if we agree, it seems like we dont.

And I don't think he's being rude at all.

< Message edited by Ian Joseph -- 6/26/2017 1:03:00 PM >


_____________________________

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Enjoy the process; crave the goal.

Believe.
Post #: 1308
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/26/2017 1:12:24 PM   
kgdabom

 

Posts: 29444
Joined: 7/29/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

David and I agree on some basketball things to a point and disagree on others, but in both instances, we are looking at alot of it from a different philosophical viewpoint. So even if we agree, it seems like we dont.

And I don't think he's being rude at all.

To me this

Yes. You ALMOST but DIDN'T lose a FA. He decided to take the extra money and stay.

was mildly rude. I do plenty of mildly rude stuff myself. Sometimes downright rude if I feel the person deserves it. No big deal.

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."
Post #: 1309
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/26/2017 4:58:39 PM   
ruffenach

 

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We have waived Jordan Hill, but that comes as no surprise. Others will certainly follow. I was going to say, I expected Payne to be announced, but he is a free agent, so no announcement is necessary.
Post #: 1310
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/26/2017 5:52:24 PM   
thebigo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

David and I agree on some basketball things to a point and disagree on others, but in both instances, we are looking at alot of it from a different philosophical viewpoint.


So, which of you is the Absurdist?
Post #: 1311
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/26/2017 6:44:05 PM   
ruffenach

 

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If BS was electricity, you two would be power houses.
Post #: 1312
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/26/2017 7:39:49 PM   
thebigo


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Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach

If BS was electricity, you two would be power houses.


Are you talking to me, and yourself?
Post #: 1313
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/27/2017 6:18:28 AM   
ruffenach

 

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If the shoe fits, you must convict.
Post #: 1314
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/27/2017 7:35:59 AM   
TJSweens


Posts: 37960
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach

We have waived Jordan Hill, but that comes as no surprise. Others will certainly follow. I was going to say, I expected Payne to be announced, but he is a free agent, so no announcement is necessary.


Don't they still have to waive his rights to clear him off the books? I thought he got carried on the books at something like 120% of last year's salary until they do.

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Post #: 1315
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/27/2017 10:31:21 AM   
David Levine


Posts: 70974
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach

We have waived Jordan Hill, but that comes as no surprise. Others will certainly follow. I was going to say, I expected Payne to be announced, but he is a free agent, so no announcement is necessary.


Don't they still have to waive his rights to clear him off the books? I thought he got carried on the books at something like 120% of last year's salary until they do.


Yes, Bazz (7.6), Payne (3.1), Rush (4.2) and Casspi (1.4) all have cap holds until we either resign them or waive their rights.

But I'm not sure there will be announcements if we waive their rights. With Hill we had to make a decision by a certain date or his contract would become guaranteed.

< Message edited by David Levine -- 6/27/2017 10:32:57 AM >
Post #: 1316
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/27/2017 11:25:55 AM   
TJSweens


Posts: 37960
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Status: online
Then I don't see any reason not to waive all four and free up the $16+ million.

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Post #: 1317
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/27/2017 11:35:54 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 19054
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens
Then I don't see any reason not to waive all four and free up the $16+ million.


They might need them for trades yet. Outside chance we keep Casspi?

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Post #: 1318
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/27/2017 11:43:03 AM   
David Levine


Posts: 70974
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens
Then I don't see any reason not to waive all four and free up the $16+ million.


They might need them for trades yet. Outside chance we keep Casspi?


Not sure how we'd need them for trades - clearing their cap space would have the same result as sending them out in a deal.
Post #: 1319
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/27/2017 12:33:21 PM   
ruffenach

 

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I don't think there are any rush. Now we have plenty of cap space, so if we spend it we cut them when there is an actual need. Bazz agent wanted big money, but he may be more reasonable once he tests the market. I trust Thibs to put together a good team this summer.
Post #: 1320
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/27/2017 1:13:53 PM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 19054
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens
Then I don't see any reason not to waive all four and free up the $16+ million.


They might need them for trades yet. Outside chance we keep Casspi?


Not sure how we'd need them for trades - clearing their cap space would have the same result as sending them out in a deal.


What if we don't want to take back extra salary in a trade offer and the other team is over the cap? Throw in Casspi, Payne, etc. to make it work.

_____________________________

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KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 1321
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/27/2017 1:18:25 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 70974
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens
Then I don't see any reason not to waive all four and free up the $16+ million.


They might need them for trades yet. Outside chance we keep Casspi?


Not sure how we'd need them for trades - clearing their cap space would have the same result as sending them out in a deal.


What if we don't want to take back extra salary in a trade offer and the other team is over the cap? Throw in Casspi, Payne, etc. to make it work.


It could only would make a difference if another team really wanted Casspi or Payne. It would make no difference to us. And with as small of a contract as those guys would command, it probably still wouldn't affect the trade - since there is some wiggle room.
Post #: 1322
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/27/2017 1:23:54 PM   
kgdabom

 

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Happy Birthday Ruff

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So let it be done."
Post #: 1323
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/27/2017 1:27:19 PM   
kgdabom

 

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Casspi sure seems like a deal at 1.4 unless he has lost all his skills recently.

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"So let it be written.
So let it be done."
Post #: 1324
RE: 2017 NBA Draft - 6/27/2017 5:08:13 PM   
Steve Lentz


Posts: 35154
Joined: 7/19/2007
From: Omaha
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

Casspi sure seems like a deal at 1.4 unless he has lost all his skills recently.

I wasn't impressed at all last year with the Wolves. I suppose he wasn't fully healthy though.

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Post #: 1325
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