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General Vikes Talk -Archived 7/26/18

 
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General Vikes Talk -Archived 7/26/18 - 1/29/2018 8:02:25 AM   
Toby Stumbo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

No more excuses.

You can't win every year - even if you're the Patriots. But winning zero is no longer acceptable and until they do every season is a failure.


< Message edited by Toby Stumbo -- 7/26/2018 7:54:39 AM >


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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 9:40:07 AM   
David F.


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FURST!!!!

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 9:41:50 AM   
Lars


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toby Stumbo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

No more excuses.

You can't win every year - even if you're the Patriots. But winning zero is no longer acceptable and until they do every season is a failure.



That's exactly how I see it.

We have a roster with enough talent to win it all. Go do it.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 12:02:19 PM   
drviking


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Sounds like you guys are buying into my signature...


There is only one thing left to do.



i have seen everything I need to see. Miracle plays, high powered offense, NFL MVP, high power defense, perfect kicking season.....whatever


only one thing left to do

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 12:06:28 PM   
drviking


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which is why i was begging/pleading/whinging for us to bench Keenum earlier in the year


He is plain and simple, not enough. It was a fun ride, and I certainly understand riding the hot hand, but it was the wrong decision, IMO




I suppose, I feel like the people that said Favre would throw a killer INT at the worst time from the very second we signed him. Turned out they were right.


I get no joy from the 'I told you so' situation we are in, only anger


Nothing against Case, he is a very easy player to root for, but please do not sign him as QB1

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 12:22:55 PM   
Thomas O. Eliason


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He's the best QB2 in the league.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 1:07:00 PM   
drviking


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thomas O. Eliason

He's the best QB2 in the league.


absolutely


he is probably a top 23 QB, but 20th QB is not enough


IMO


and he already had his career year

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 2:19:33 PM   
kevinemmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

which is why i was begging/pleading/whinging for us to bench Keenum earlier in the year


He is plain and simple, not enough. It was a fun ride, and I certainly understand riding the hot hand, but it was the wrong decision, IMO




I suppose, I feel like the people that said Favre would throw a killer INT at the worst time from the very second we signed him. Turned out they were right.


I get no joy from the 'I told you so' situation we are in, only anger


Nothing against Case, he is a very easy player to root for, but please do not sign him as QB1


BINGO! BONGO! BANGO!

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 2:38:46 PM   
Lynn G.


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How could we have benched him earlier in the year? Our first and second string quarterbacks were both injured - who would you have put in? He was our third stringer, and ended up doing pretty well. Face it, a lot of teams are jealous of what we got out of our third string quarterback.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 2:43:56 PM   
drviking


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynn G.

How could we have benched him earlier in the year? Our first and second string quarterbacks were both injured - who would you have put in? He was our third stringer, and ended up doing pretty well. Face it, a lot of teams are jealous of what we got out of our third string quarterback.



i absolutely understand WHY they did not bench him

and i refrained from complaining about it as much as I could during the run, because I didnt want to 'ruin' the fun



but, IMO, the change should have been made either after the bye or after the Thanksgiving game


a lot of teams are jealous about what we go from our third stringer, two teams are not.....the eagles and the pats


i want to be one of the those two teams, nothing else matters.....

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 2:54:03 PM   
Lars


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quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

which is why i was begging/pleading/whinging for us to bench Keenum earlier in the year


He is plain and simple, not enough. It was a fun ride, and I certainly understand riding the hot hand, but it was the wrong decision, IMO




I suppose, I feel like the people that said Favre would throw a killer INT at the worst time from the very second we signed him. Turned out they were right.


I get no joy from the 'I told you so' situation we are in, only anger


Nothing against Case, he is a very easy player to root for, but please do not sign him as QB1


I agree on the assessment that Case is not a top 10 (or maybe even top 20 QB). I would not pay him for more than what he is. He may not like or accept that, but we can't afford to waste time and resources on a guy that is not that.

With that said, he is not the reason we lost the NFCCG. Now, he also was not great enough to elevate the team and get beyond those other issues - like a top 10 or top 5 QB might be able to do.

The collapse of the defense is what lost us that game. They played very differently than they did all year and it cost us. They played like a bottom 10 defense, not the #1. If they played close to their status, the game would have played out differently. We wouldn't have gone for it one 4th and goal. We would have kicked a FG, etc.. Maybe we would have lost, but it would have been close...17-14....coin flip

I would imagine The Pats would have beat us in the SB. Would have liked to chance to see....you never know....that odd-shaped ball bounces funny.

Again...not saying Case is something he isn't. I wouldn't pay him big bucks or bank on him being some stud. I think we have seen his ceiling - and maybe above it. Lots of guys made some tough/lucky catches this year. But we should have made it to the SB with him as QB. We should have not lost to PHI - and he is only part of that reason, with much more "blame" belonging elsewhere.

YMMV.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 3:04:03 PM   
Bruce Johnson

 

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I don't know about him not being a top ten quarterback. I was thinking that he was as good as some of the players in the Pro Bowl. There were three from each team and then of course Brady and Wentz deserved to be there, but weren't. I do believe that Case would have to be considered in the next grouping based on his season. I would say that it's debatable.

You can make the point that this season was an outlier and that he needs to do it again to deserve the top ten ranking. I guess I could agree with that.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 3:09:52 PM   
drviking


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lars

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

which is why i was begging/pleading/whinging for us to bench Keenum earlier in the year


He is plain and simple, not enough. It was a fun ride, and I certainly understand riding the hot hand, but it was the wrong decision, IMO




I suppose, I feel like the people that said Favre would throw a killer INT at the worst time from the very second we signed him. Turned out they were right.


I get no joy from the 'I told you so' situation we are in, only anger


Nothing against Case, he is a very easy player to root for, but please do not sign him as QB1


I agree on the assessment that Case is not a top 10 (or maybe even top 20 QB). I would not pay him for more than what he is. He may not like or accept that, but we can't afford to waste time and resources on a guy that is not that.

With that said, he is not the reason we lost the NFCCG. Now, he also was not great enough to elevate the team and get beyond those other issues - like a top 10 or top 5 QB might be able to do.

The collapse of the defense is what lost us that game. They played very differently than they did all year and it cost us. They played like a bottom 10 defense, not the #1. If they played close to their status, the game would have played out differently. We wouldn't have gone for it one 4th and goal. We would have kicked a FG, etc.. Maybe we would have lost, but it would have been close...17-14....coin flip

I would imagine The Pats would have beat us in the SB. Would have liked to chance to see....you never know....that odd-shaped ball bounces funny.

Again...not saying Case is something he isn't. I wouldn't pay him big bucks or bank on him being some stud. I think we have seen his ceiling - and maybe above it. Lots of guys made some tough/lucky catches this year. But we should have made it to the SB with him as QB. We should have not lost to PHI - and he is only part of that reason, with much more "blame" belonging elsewhere.

YMMV.


i am not blaming Case for Philly, it was a total team meltdown


but lets not pretend we put a beat down on New Orleans at home either, a miracle play saved us from a first game exit


they had us dead to rights with 15 seconds to go

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 3:17:58 PM   
drviking


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

I don't know about him not being a top ten quarterback. I was thinking that he was as good as some of the players in the Pro Bowl. There were three from each team and then of course Brady and Wentz deserved to be there, but weren't. I do believe that Case would have to be considered in the next grouping based on his season. I would say that it's debatable.

You can make the point that this season was an outlier and that he needs to do it again to deserve the top ten ranking. I guess I could agree with that.


i look at it like this...

WHERE can we REASONABLY expect improvement on offense

LT...marginal improvement, Reiff was elite for the first half of the season, fell off a bit in the 2nd half
LG...probably could find an upgrade, so improvement could be had
C....not really, should be even better next year
RG....probably could find an upgrade, but it was solid, marginal improvement
RT....Remmers was solid/pretty good the first half, marginal improvement

TE....probably could use some speed, but pretty productive, marginal improvement

WR...maybe need some size, marginal improvement at best (unless you talk depth)

RB....not much improvement to be had


so that leaves QB

Case had his best season, but has some very obvious limitations. IMO, he had his Derek Anderson/Nick Foles year


i could be wrong, but I dont see him as a top 20 QB long term....was he this year? sure. probably top 10, but i can list a lot of QBs i would rather take a shot with

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 3:35:45 PM   
Lars


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quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking


so that leaves QB

Case had his best season, but has some very obvious limitations. IMO, he had his Derek Anderson/Nick Foles year


i could be wrong, but I dont see him as a top 20 QB long term....was he this year? sure. probably top 10, but i can list a lot of QBs i would rather take a shot with


It does all come down to QB. So, what do we have and what can we go get?

In Case, I think you have seen the best you will see. Love the intangibles, heart, leadership. Limited arm strength, gambles a little too much. I really worry that this is one of those deals where the stars just lined up for him this year, and in the future it will be fool's gold...

Bradford, has all of the tools. But big gamble if he can stay healthy. Is he expecting big money? I wouldn't pay him that. How much did he make per snap he took last year?

I don't know what to think about Teddy. Clearly he can play, or they would have put him on the field, but at what level? Unless he is toast, I think you have to keep him next year and let him compete for the starter's job. But there is NO WAY I pay him huge money for that. He has not earned that and is too big of a question mark.

Of the FA that we could actually get, I would entertain the idea of Cousins. That's it.

With all of that said, I guess I would give Teddy a modest contract (I would personally play him on the tolled contract) and give Bradford one, too - with clauses tied to performance. I would not over-pay. None of them have earned it (franchise tag level pay) to this point, IMHO.

If other teams want to overpay for all of these guys, I let them.

If you said I HAD to pick Case, Teddy or Bradford as my starter next year - my answer surprises me - but I would take Bradford and cross my fingers. Teddy sitting the last few weeks told me they know something I don't.

My first choice would be Brees , but there is no way that happens.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 4:44:11 PM   
kevinemmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynn G.

How could we have benched him earlier in the year? Our first and second string quarterbacks were both injured - who would you have put in? He was our third stringer, and ended up doing pretty well. Face it, a lot of teams are jealous of what we got out of our third string quarterback.



i absolutely understand WHY they did not bench him

and i refrained from complaining about it as much as I could during the run, because I didnt want to 'ruin' the fun



but, IMO, the change should have been made either after the bye or after the Thanksgiving game


a lot of teams are jealous about what we go from our third stringer, two teams are not.....the eagles and the pats


i want to be one of the those two teams, nothing else matters.....


I have a suspicion that Zim was protecting Teddy for next year.

The "24 month injury" quote is what gives me that feeling.

As someone who stood over TB when his knee was looking like "the end" of his career, I can understand why.

Otherwise, I agree with Doc, he should have played this year when cleared to play.

< Message edited by kevinemmer -- 1/29/2018 4:46:00 PM >


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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 5:00:20 PM   
Thomas O. Eliason


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Lars:

quote:

In Case, I think you have seen the best you will see. Love the intangibles, heart, leadership. Limited arm strength, gambles a little too much. I really worry that this is one of those deals where the stars just lined up for him this year, and in the future it will be fool's gold...

He can't throw the deep out. That collapses the defensive field inward and forward. Teams started to figure that out towards the end.

If he starts for us next year, we will see a different plan of attack against us... of that I am quite certain.

He does have ways to beat that, with his lollipops over the top... and our RCVs are quite good at turning those into completions. Nevertheless, Case just isn't a complete NFL QB - at least not a QB1 in my book.

I have no doubt (that) he can be successful at this level. Probably a consistent 10+ game winner on a good team (like ours). But I do not see him as a difference-maker who can take the team on his shoulders when we need that.

I'd keep him as a 2. Unfortunately, somebody is going to pay him like a 1... so he's almost certainly gone.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 6:22:33 PM   
thebigo


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Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lars

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

which is why i was begging/pleading/whinging for us to bench Keenum earlier in the year


He is plain and simple, not enough. It was a fun ride, and I certainly understand riding the hot hand, but it was the wrong decision, IMO




I suppose, I feel like the people that said Favre would throw a killer INT at the worst time from the very second we signed him. Turned out they were right.


I get no joy from the 'I told you so' situation we are in, only anger


Nothing against Case, he is a very easy player to root for, but please do not sign him as QB1


I agree on the assessment that Case is not a top 10 (or maybe even top 20 QB). I would not pay him for more than what he is. He may not like or accept that, but we can't afford to waste time and resources on a guy that is not that.

With that said, he is not the reason we lost the NFCCG. Now, he also was not great enough to elevate the team and get beyond those other issues - like a top 10 or top 5 QB might be able to do.

The collapse of the defense is what lost us that game. They played very differently than they did all year and it cost us. They played like a bottom 10 defense, not the #1. If they played close to their status, the game would have played out differently. We wouldn't have gone for it one 4th and goal. We would have kicked a FG, etc.. Maybe we would have lost, but it would have been close...17-14....coin flip

I would imagine The Pats would have beat us in the SB. Would have liked to chance to see....you never know....that odd-shaped ball bounces funny.

Again...not saying Case is something he isn't. I wouldn't pay him big bucks or bank on him being some stud. I think we have seen his ceiling - and maybe above it. Lots of guys made some tough/lucky catches this year. But we should have made it to the SB with him as QB. We should have not lost to PHI - and he is only part of that reason, with much more "blame" belonging elsewhere.

YMMV.


Considering the offense scored 7 points, gave up 7 points, turned the ball over 3 times. The defense could have pitched a shutout, and that would have only gotten us a tie. That loss is first and foremost on the offense. Did the defense suck? Yes. But in the end it really didn't matter much what the defense did.
Post #: 18
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 7:12:47 PM   
Todd M

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lars

If you said I HAD to pick Case, Teddy or Bradford as my starter next year - my answer surprises me - but I would take Bradford and cross my fingers. Teddy sitting the last few weeks told me they know something I don't.



I like what what Kevin said about the 24 month thing. Maybe Zim is in a place with this that we're not at.

Maybe our #1 spot isn't something we need to worry about. Now how he'll play and hold up will make for plenty of arguments but if we ride with Teddy and Sloter is anything worth protecting the way we did we just need an emergency bottom fell out guy. A couple will be looking for work I'm sure.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 7:15:35 PM   
Todd M

 

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Teddy wants the chance to start. Period. He's probably less a money guy than most. A tolling contract and uncertainty probably don't sit that well with him though so something like a good faith 3 year 30 mil contract that can be gotten out of or re-upped seems in order.

WHOEVER we go with is going to come with uncertainty. I give it to the guy that's been here and gutted it out.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 10:05:53 PM   
Ryan Anderson


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I don't understand comparing Bridgewater and Keenum and citing arm strength as a negative against only Keenum. They have similar arm strength, and in my view, Keenum's arm is slightly better. He also is more mobile, especially given the question mark on Bridgewater's knee, and has fantastic pocket awareness. I can understand the desire to upgrade on arm strength, but then I think we're looking for a different QB than either of the current two.
Post #: 21
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 10:08:24 PM   
Ryan Anderson


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To that end, I love Bradford's arm, but even if healthy, he's too much of a statute in my opinion. Without an elite o-line, it's a sack and negative play waiting to happen.

< Message edited by Ryan Anderson -- 1/29/2018 10:09:44 PM >
Post #: 22
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 10:21:12 PM   
69in09


Posts: 8479
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From: Olympia, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

I don't know about him not being a top ten quarterback. I was thinking that he was as good as some of the players in the Pro Bowl. There were three from each team and then of course Brady and Wentz deserved to be there, but weren't. I do believe that Case would have to be considered in the next grouping based on his season. I would say that it's debatable.

You can make the point that this season was an outlier and that he needs to do it again to deserve the top ten ranking. I guess I could agree with that.


i look at it like this...

WHERE can we REASONABLY expect improvement on offense

LT...marginal improvement, Reiff was elite for the first half of the season, fell off a bit in the 2nd half
LG...probably could find an upgrade, so improvement could be had
C....not really, should be even better next year
RG....probably could find an upgrade, but it was solid, marginal improvement
RT....Remmers was solid/pretty good the first half, marginal improvement

TE....probably could use some speed, but pretty productive, marginal improvement

WR...maybe need some size, marginal improvement at best (unless you talk depth)

RB....not much improvement to be had


so that leaves QB

Case had his best season, but has some very obvious limitations. IMO, he had his Derek Anderson/Nick Foles year


i could be wrong, but I dont see him as a top 20 QB long term....was he this year? sure. probably top 10, but i can list a lot of QBs i would rather take a shot with


Is your projections from 2017 to what we could be in 2018??

Also please expand on what are Keenum's "obvious" limitations?

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 10:26:07 PM   
69in09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryan Anderson

To that end, I love Bradford's arm, but even if healthy, he's too much of a statute in my opinion. Without an elite o-line, it's a sack and negative play waiting to happen.


I concur. That NO game was a thing of beauty. He SPRAYED the ball. I don't care that he is slow, the problem is he just doesn't have pocket awareness.

For all the heat Keenum got for his 3 TOs. Just look a Bradford's TOs at philly last year. They were much worse IMO.

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Post #: 24
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/29/2018 11:16:32 PM   
Bruce Johnson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

I don't know about him not being a top ten quarterback. I was thinking that he was as good as some of the players in the Pro Bowl. There were three from each team and then of course Brady and Wentz deserved to be there, but weren't. I do believe that Case would have to be considered in the next grouping based on his season. I would say that it's debatable.

You can make the point that this season was an outlier and that he needs to do it again to deserve the top ten ranking. I guess I could agree with that.


i look at it like this...

WHERE can we REASONABLY expect improvement on offense

LT...marginal improvement, Reiff was elite for the first half of the season, fell off a bit in the 2nd half
LG...probably could find an upgrade, so improvement could be had
C....not really, should be even better next year
RG....probably could find an upgrade, but it was solid, marginal improvement
RT....Remmers was solid/pretty good the first half, marginal improvement

TE....probably could use some speed, but pretty productive, marginal improvement

WR...maybe need some size, marginal improvement at best (unless you talk depth)

RB....not much improvement to be had


so that leaves QB

Case had his best season, but has some very obvious limitations. IMO, he had his Derek Anderson/Nick Foles year


i could be wrong, but I dont see him as a top 20 QB long term....was he this year? sure. probably top 10, but i can list a lot of QBs i would rather take a shot with


When you have the best defense in the NFL, you still would like an elite quarterback, but if you can't get one of those then you would like an efficient quarterback who doesn't make mistakes and you complement him with a nice rushing attack.

The problem is that this team was not the kind of team that could come from behind by two touchdowns. In the Eagles game we fell behind. Part of that was on the offense by giving up the ball and even allowing the Eagles defense to score. Philadelphia is a very tough place to play and the 75,000 fans made it a really tough environment. The defense also gave up some huge plays. We can say that that was inexplicable, but they also did that in the Carolina game (on the road) That might have been the game that we lost the Super Bowl on. That was a game where we could have prevailed. The Eagles would have had a tough time winning at our place and that is where the game would have been if we had beat the Panthers.

The Lions game could also have been a difference maker. The bleeping Lions beat us at our place. We were down because we already lost our starting quarterback, and then we lost our stud running back in the game. Case was not up to the challenge. I remember that the Lions secondary played really aggressively and the refs let them play. Murray was still not 100% coming back from surgery and so it was on Case to find a way at home to win that game- but he could not. He was the backup and he still didn't have his wings, yet, like he did on a couple subsequent games. Maybe he could have prevailed if he had a couple more games under his belt. I actually think one of the main reasons he did better in the middle of the season was because Murray got better. Having a good running attack can make any quarterback look better. Look at Dak Prescott.

So how can we get better? Getting Cook back next year will really make the offense look better, but I think we should continue to look to upgrade the offensive line. A quarterback will look better if he has time to throw, too.

Our team made a big step forward in improvement this year largely because our offensive line improved. Imagine if we can take one more huge step. I would focus on that during the off-season.

_____________________________

I do think it is wonderful that football can bring people together from different persuasions. We need more of that and less of what divides us.
Post #: 25
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