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RE: Wolves 2018 offseason

 
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RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 3:13:59 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

I'm a Siakam fan, and with Ibaka and Valanciunas getting older, I'm expecting big things from him this year.


I'm excited to see Kawhi and OG as a wing tandem. Plus I'm intrigued by their new coach.

quote:

Giannis and Milwaukee could become scary good soon. Shedding Parker and adding Ilyasova makes them much better defensively, and now they finally have a C that can score.


Plus no team upgraded more at HC this offseason than the Bucks. (Although I also love the Fizdale upgrade in NY)


Huge upgrade. Of course going coachless would be an upgrade over Kidd.


The addition that no one talks about is Ben Sullivan. He was Chip Engelland's right hand man years ago in San Antonio, and Budenholzer brought him with him to Atlanta and now Milwaukee. If he can make the 3 ball a legit part of Gainnis' game (preseason results are small sample, but promising), he'll be the best player in the game.
Post #: 1676
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 3:14:09 PM   
kgdabom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

At least the league is giving us Boston/Philly tonight so we can forget about our woes for a couple hours.


That game should be fun. Starting Fultz makes Philly much better defensively on the perimeter.

The other game, probably not so fun. Schroeder, and his complete lack of defense, will make things extremely easy for Curry.


Its interesting that while the West is stacked, 4 of the 5 teams I'm most interested in watching are in the East.

Philly/Boston/Toronto/Milwaukee/Utah

I love watching the Freak. Toronto will be interesting for a little while just to see how Kawhi is doing after his fake, I mean mysterious injury from last year.

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Post #: 1677
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 3:33:24 PM   
TJSweens


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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

That's just not accurate at all. Not only has the deadline to rework his contract passed, but Miami had no way to clear nearly enough cap space to do it. Miami would absolutely need to wait until next offseason to do anything about his contract.


All of which adds to the difficulty in getting any value for him at this point. Teams will be reluctant to part with meaningful assets up front with no guarantee of resigning him even with Bird rights. The Miami offer may have been less than ideal, but that is the reality of what happens when a clusterfuck of an an ownership / FO lets things spiral out of control to this degree. A better offer is not waiting down the road unless all parties reign in the dysfunction.


But that happens all the time. Leonard and George are the 2 most recent examples. Bird Rights are super important because very few teams will have the cap space to sign Butler outright in the offseason, and even fewer that he'd want to go to will have it.

If teams like Miami or Houston want to add a superstar, the only way to do it is through trade - and Butler is the only one currently on the block.

And there probably are better offers down the road. Once December 15th roles around a ton of good players become eligible for trade.

I could also see Miami really struggle out of the gate in an improving Eastern Conference as they don't have a star player and panic sets in.


Sorry David, I just don't share your overall level of optimism of ultimately getting value on this one. I see a star player with a lot of hard miles on his body and prone to going nuclear, who wants to be paid like a superstar somewhere else; potential trade partners who see us trading from a position of weakness and are thus trying to low ball us; those same trade partners also have to determine how much they actually are willing to pay this asshole given his injury and attitude issues, a POBO who doesn't want to trade Butler and will do anything in his power not to, and all of this doesn't factor in the basic reality that the Wolves organization could f*ck up a one car parade. Unless Butler and Towns can agree to swallow their pride, join hands and sing kumbaya for the sake of their shared desire to get Butler the hell out of here, I don't see a great return down the road. I appreciate you trying to talk me off the ledge, but any sense of optimism I had has been spent. I hope to be delightfully surprised, but I am not holding my breath.

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Post #: 1678
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 3:41:44 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

That's just not accurate at all. Not only has the deadline to rework his contract passed, but Miami had no way to clear nearly enough cap space to do it. Miami would absolutely need to wait until next offseason to do anything about his contract.


All of which adds to the difficulty in getting any value for him at this point. Teams will be reluctant to part with meaningful assets up front with no guarantee of resigning him even with Bird rights. The Miami offer may have been less than ideal, but that is the reality of what happens when a clusterfuck of an an ownership / FO lets things spiral out of control to this degree. A better offer is not waiting down the road unless all parties reign in the dysfunction.


But that happens all the time. Leonard and George are the 2 most recent examples. Bird Rights are super important because very few teams will have the cap space to sign Butler outright in the offseason, and even fewer that he'd want to go to will have it.

If teams like Miami or Houston want to add a superstar, the only way to do it is through trade - and Butler is the only one currently on the block.

And there probably are better offers down the road. Once December 15th roles around a ton of good players become eligible for trade.

I could also see Miami really struggle out of the gate in an improving Eastern Conference as they don't have a star player and panic sets in.


Sorry David, I just don't share your overall level of optimism of ultimately getting value on this one. I see a star player with a lot of hard miles on his body and prone to going nuclear, who wants to be paid like a superstar somewhere else; potential trade partners who see us trading from a position of weakness and are thus trying to low ball us; those same trade partners also have to determine how much they actually are willing to pay this asshole given his injury and attitude issues, a POBO who doesn't want to trade Butler and will do anything in his power not to, and all of this doesn't factor in the basic reality that the Wolves organization could f*ck up a one car parade. Unless Butler and Towns can agree to swallow their pride, join hands and sing kumbaya for the sake of their shared desire to get Butler the hell out of here, I don't see a great return down the road. I appreciate you trying to talk me off the ledge, but any sense of optimism I had has been spent. I hope to be delightfully surprised, but I am not holding my breath.


I don't think we get a great return, but players of Butler's ability don't become available for trade often.

Also don't look past other front office egos. They know how much of a mess things are here, I'd wager a number of other teams think Butler will be better in their environment.

Shit, I bet a lot of Butler's attitude the past 2 weeks makes Riley want him MORE.
Post #: 1679
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 3:49:30 PM   
TJSweens


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The problem here is in trying to apply a rational and logical argument to anything Timberwolves. Like I said, my optimism has had the living dog shit kicked out of it by being a fan of this team for so long. I will pessimistically expect the situation and our eventual return to only get worse, until it's proven otherwise. I don't have it in me to have any hope about it anymore.

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Post #: 1680
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 3:51:16 PM   
David Jerde


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the festering of Thibs still HC and POBO makes me think Glen isn't going to try to right the ship

while I liked the trade for Butler and the 2018 draft, I think Thibs has done a shitty job at almost everything else (POBO and HC)

with ample evidence on which to base my decision, I choose to remain pessimistic about the wolves until they prove otherwise
Post #: 1681
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 3:57:49 PM   
David Levine


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My one saving grace is Thibs has not made any bad trades.

The trade for Butler was very good.

Trading Rubio was a bad basketball decision, but he still got good value in the deal.

Turning down Butler for Richardson/Waiters/1st round pick was the right move.

He didn't trade for Rose, Deng or Noah when he had ample opportunities/offers to do so.

He's resisted trading away 1st round picks for moderate upgrades (CJ Miles).

< Message edited by David Levine -- 10/16/2018 6:55:57 PM >
Post #: 1682
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 4:02:44 PM   
David Levine


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Granted "not making bad trades" is an incredibly low bar, but he's the first GM in the history of this cursed franchise to hurdle it (so far...).
Post #: 1683
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 4:40:04 PM   
Matt Lang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

The problem here is in trying to apply a rational and logical argument to anything Timberwolves. Like I said, my optimism has had the living dog shit kicked out of it by being a fan of this team for so long. I will pessimistically expect the situation and our eventual return to only get worse, until it's proven otherwise. I don't have it in me to have any hope about it anymore.


It's probably more likely that Thib doesn't get fired and he gives Butler a max deal at the end of the season, than we get a good trade deal.

Even more likely is that after getting the max deal, Butler blows out his knee or something.
Post #: 1684
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 6:54:24 PM   
kgdabom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

My one saving grace is Thibs has not made any bad trades.

The trade for Butler was very good.

Trading Rubio was a bad basketball decision, but he still got good value in the deal.

Turning down Butler for Richardson/Winslow/1st round pick was the right move.

He didn't trade for Rose, Deng or Noah when he had ample opportunities/offers to do so.

He's resisted trading away 1st round picks for moderate upgrades (CJ Miles).

Did he turn down Richardson/Winslow/FRP. It was my understanding it was Waiters in the deal not Winslow. I don't like Winslow much but he isn't a total negative.
Under the screwed up circumstances I would have accepted that deal before he was extended of course.

< Message edited by kgdabom -- 10/16/2018 6:55:28 PM >


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Post #: 1685
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 6:56:18 PM   
David Levine


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From the StarTrib....

Taylor was asked to assess how Tom Thibodeau, the Wolves coach and president of basketball operations, has handled the Butler situation.

"Well, I'm OK with it," Taylor said. "Initially, when Butler told [Thibodeau] he wanted to leave, you know Tom did everything he could to try to keep Jimmy here and I understand that. They have a close relationship.

"Thibs brought him here so that he would stay here. But eventually I think that in listening to Jimmy, Thibs and I are lined up on this. We need to be looking at a trade."

Thibodeau has three years left on a five-year contract worth about $40 million. Is he coaching for his job?

"No, no, the only thing now is that we are starting to play games and I am asking him to concentrate on coaching," Taylor said. "GM Scott Layden will help to see if any trades are available."

Some media outlets this week reported Butler requested a trade immediately following the Wolves' exit from the playoffs last season. Taylor said as far as he knows, that is incorrect.

"Back about three weeks ago, when [Butler's request] came out in the news, Thibodeau called me and said that he had a meeting with Butler out on the West Coast, and Butler had told him at that time he wanted to be traded," Taylor recalled. "That was the first I had heard anything about it."

While supposedly the reason Butler wants out is because he questions the work ethic of Towns and Wiggins, Taylor said all three players have told him they can collaborate on the court.

"When I ask them, they all have said they can play together in the games," he said. "I don't know why they wouldn't be telling me their true feelings."

Is Taylor still happy he hired Thibodeau in April of 2016?

"Yes, yes, he is a good coach and I have faith in him," he said.
Post #: 1686
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 6:56:28 PM   
David Levine


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I think there is a really good chance KAT's relationship with the Wolves is irreconcilably destroyed over the season, and he asks for a trade over the summer.
Post #: 1687
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 6:58:55 PM   
kgdabom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

From the StarTrib....

Taylor was asked to assess how Tom Thibodeau, the Wolves coach and president of basketball operations, has handled the Butler situation.

"Well, I'm OK with it," Taylor said. "Initially, when Butler told [Thibodeau] he wanted to leave, you know Tom did everything he could to try to keep Jimmy here and I understand that. They have a close relationship.

"Thibs brought him here so that he would stay here. But eventually I think that in listening to Jimmy, Thibs and I are lined up on this. We need to be looking at a trade."

Thibodeau has three years left on a five-year contract worth about $40 million. Is he coaching for his job?

"No, no, the only thing now is that we are starting to play games and I am asking him to concentrate on coaching," Taylor said. "GM Scott Layden will help to see if any trades are available."

Some media outlets this week reported Butler requested a trade immediately following the Wolves' exit from the playoffs last season. Taylor said as far as he knows, that is incorrect.

"Back about three weeks ago, when [Butler's request] came out in the news, Thibodeau called me and said that he had a meeting with Butler out on the West Coast, and Butler had told him at that time he wanted to be traded," Taylor recalled. "That was the first I had heard anything about it."

While supposedly the reason Butler wants out is because he questions the work ethic of Towns and Wiggins, Taylor said all three players have told him they can collaborate on the court.

"When I ask them, they all have said they can play together in the games," he said. "I don't know why they wouldn't be telling me their true feelings."

Is Taylor still happy he hired Thibodeau in April of 2016?

"Yes, yes, he is a good coach and I have faith in him," he said.

Excellent.

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Post #: 1688
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 7:04:01 PM   
David Levine


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Wow.

KG just said on live TV that "Glen Taylor doesn't know shit about basketball".
Post #: 1689
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 7:09:58 PM   
David Levine


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This season is going to be a dumpster fire.

Glen isn't going to fire Thibs, creating tons of conflict with the minority owners and operations people.

But Taylor promised Jimmy face-to-face that he'd trade him.

Thibs has no desire to trade Jimmy, and has been actively making things difficult with other GMs.

Jimmy promised to only be a passive aggressive asshole instead of a fully aggressive one - provided Taylor keeps his word and actively seeks to trade him.

KAT was told Jimmy and Thibs would be gone, and he and his agent are furious about what is happening.
Post #: 1690
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 7:20:04 PM   
twinsfan


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I wish we woulda made that trade with the Sixers. Hopefully it's still an option, but I doubt it. Teams don't wanna rethink their strategy once the regular season begins. It's not like baseball or hockey.

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RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 7:21:55 PM   
twinsfan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

I think there is a really good chance KAT's relationship with the Wolves is irreconcilably destroyed over the season, and he asks for a trade over the summer.

IMO he is too young and not far enough into his career to have the cache to demand a trade.

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RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 7:26:51 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

I think there is a really good chance KAT's relationship with the Wolves is irreconcilably destroyed over the season, and he asks for a trade over the summer.

IMO he is too young and not far enough into his career to have the cache to demand a trade.


Sure he does.

Welcome to the NBA.

The only thing we have going for us, is he can't do it until next offseason as its damn near impossible to trade a player with his contract situation before then.
Post #: 1693
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 7:41:39 PM   
David Levine


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Our best hope is that Glen just gave Thibs the "seal of approval" that almost every coach that's about to be fired gets...
Post #: 1694
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 7:49:31 PM   
David Levine


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I would imagine there are 29 teams that are already trying to formulate potential plans about how they can acquire KAT next offseason.

Glen needs to stop kissing the ass of a guy who absolutely wants nothing to do with Minnesota and start thinking about the young kid they need to be building around.
Post #: 1695
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 7:53:13 PM   
El Duderino


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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Wow.

KG just said on live TV that "Glen Taylor doesn't know shit about basketball".

As the kids say on the twitter, I don't see no lie here.

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Post #: 1696
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 7:56:51 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: El Duderino

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Wow.

KG just said on live TV that "Glen Taylor doesn't know shit about basketball".

As the kids say on the twitter, I don't see no lie here.


Its just a shame that KG won't have anything to do with us until Taylor sells the team. We can't even retire his number.
Post #: 1697
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 8:59:08 PM   
David Levine


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Strib:

Taylor, who has owned the Wolves since 1994, said Butler's demand has not made him consider selling the club.

"No, no, we will get through this," he said. "The changes we have to make, we will get through this. I'll just keep working and doing the best I can on it to keep our team very competitive."

-----------

Taylor said that as far as he can tell, there is no chance Butler will remain with the Wolves beyond this season.

Is Taylor committed to trading Butler?

"Yes. I think [Butler has] made it very clear that he would not re-sign with us at the end of the year and therefore it is in our interest to get a trade so that we can get a player or two to replace him that helps our team," Taylor said.
Post #: 1698
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 9:44:57 PM   
kgdabom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

This season is going to be a dumpster fire.

Glen isn't going to fire Thibs, creating tons of conflict with the minority owners and operations people.

But Taylor promised Jimmy face-to-face that he'd trade him.

Thibs has no desire to trade Jimmy, and has been actively making things difficult with other GMs.

Jimmy promised to only be a passive aggressive asshole instead of a fully aggressive one - provided Taylor keeps his word and actively seeks to trade him.

KAT was told Jimmy and Thibs would be gone, and he and his agent are furious about what is happening.

Yeah how dare we keep the best player on the team and the coach that got us our first winning season and playoff birth in 14 years. However, If KAT was promised promises need to be kept.

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Post #: 1699
RE: Wolves 2018 offseason - 10/16/2018 9:47:41 PM   
kgdabom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

I wish we woulda made that trade with the Sixers. Hopefully it's still an option, but I doubt it. Teams don't wanna rethink their strategy once the regular season begins. It's not like baseball or hockey.

What trade with the sixers. Only one I heard being offered was Butler for Simmons.

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