RE: Stockton or Malone?

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RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/21/2018 12:45:22 PM

kgdabom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

Sort of begs the question....would Stockton have been so tough without Malone behind him?

That I don’t know.
For all we know, if they played against each other, maybe Stockton tries set a screen on Malone and breaks his collar bone and is never healthy?

Anyways, I go Malone.
I pair him up with a very good point guard and I don’t miss a beat.

And I love Stockton.

Pair Stockton with another good PF and they don't miss a beat. I'm with David and JT. Stockton is the most chronically underrated player in NBA history. He is the ultimate, elevate everyone around him player, while playing a dominant individual game.

there are maybe no pfs ever that could have replaced Malone and Stockton wouldn't have missed a beat. I believe their are other pgs that Malone would have done just as well or better with Nash and Magic are two that come to mind.

< Message edited by kgdabom -- 7/21/2018 12:52:12 PM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/21/2018 8:06:08 PM

TJSweens

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Barkley
McHale
Duncan
KG
Nowitzki
Weber

None of those guys ever played with a PG half as good as Stockton.

Majic is in Stockon's stratosphere. Nash is no where close.

_____________________________

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Post #: 27

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/21/2018 8:21:47 PM

JT2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Barkley
McHale
Duncan
KG
Nowitzki
Weber

None of those guys ever played with a PG half as good as Stockton.

Majic is in Stockon's stratosphere. Nash is no where close.

If you factor in defense, and you'd be foolish not to, Nash is not close.

Post #: 28

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/21/2018 9:42:06 PM

TJSweens

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Barkley
McHale
Duncan
KG
Nowitzki
Weber

None of those guys ever played with a PG half as good as Stockton.

Majic is in Stockon's stratosphere. Nash is no where close.

If you factor in defense, and you'd be foolish not to, Nash is not close.

I would factor it in if Nash ever played any.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 29

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/22/2018 1:37:52 AM

kgdabom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Barkley
McHale
Duncan
KG
Nowitzki
Weber

None of those guys ever played with a PG half as good as Stockton.

Majic is in Stockon's stratosphere. Nash is no where close.

First of all Kevin Johnson is at least half as good as Stockton. Probably more like 90%. None of those guys would have meshed with Stockton in the same way that Malone did. As for trying to put down Nash do it all you want. He is the best offensive player I have ever seen including Jordan, LeBron etc..
No one player has ever made an offense click as much as Steve Nash. Magic Came close but Nash shot so much better. Stockton not in the same realm as an offensive player.

< Message edited by kgdabom -- 7/22/2018 1:49:55 AM >

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So let it be done."

Post #: 30

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/22/2018 1:42:13 AM

kgdabom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Barkley
McHale
Duncan
KG
Nowitzki
Weber

None of those guys ever played with a PG half as good as Stockton.

Majic is in Stockon's stratosphere. Nash is no where close.

If you factor in defense, and you'd be foolish not to, Nash is not close.

I would factor it in if Nash ever played any.

I get that Nash was never known for stellar defense. But he makes up for that by being the best offensive player in the history of the NBA. I know most people when they think of a great offensive player think of individual offense like Jordan and Kobe. However, Magic and Nash have a far greater impact on offense than those two and Nash is the better of those two due to his 50/40/90 shooting skills. Nash made Shawn Marion look like an offensive star and together with Amare Stoudamire lit up the scoreboard. If Nash in his prime were running the show for the Wolves you would see Towns scoring 40 a night. With Nash or Magic instead of Stockton, Malone would have been even more dominant.

< Message edited by kgdabom -- 7/22/2018 1:49:03 AM >

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So let it be done."

Post #: 31

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/22/2018 7:35:00 AM

Elliot

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From: North Highland Beach, NJ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Barkley
McHale
Duncan
KG
Nowitzki
Weber

None of those guys ever played with a PG half as good as Stockton.

Majic is in Stockon's stratosphere. Nash is no where close.

If you factor in defense, and you'd be foolish not to, Nash is not close.

I would factor it in if Nash ever played any.

I don't think there's ever been a pick-setting PG more fearsome than John Stockton. No one, I don't care how big, no one wanted to have to fight through a pick he was setting.

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Post #: 32

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/22/2018 10:24:31 AM

TJSweens

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Barkley
McHale
Duncan
KG
Nowitzki
Weber

None of those guys ever played with a PG half as good as Stockton.

Majic is in Stockon's stratosphere. Nash is no where close.

First of all Kevin Johnson is at least half as good as Stockton. Probably more like 90%. None of those guys would have meshed with Stockton in the same way that Malone did. As for trying to put down Nash do it all you want. He is the best offensive player I have ever seen including Jordan, LeBron etc..
No one player has ever made an offense click as much as Steve Nash. Magic Came close but Nash shot so much better. Stockton not in the same realm as an offensive player.

Really? Tim Duncan. The Big Fundamental? He couldn't have meshed with Stockton? Same thing with all of those guys. They were great individual players, who also played a game that involved doing all of the little things to elevate the team. They ALL would have meshed seamlessly with Stockton.

Kevin Johnson 90% of Stockton? Not a chance. Johnson ranks with guys like Chauncey Billups who barely make the top 20 pg. Stockton is with guys like Majic and Isaah Thomas in the top 5. Nash comes up well short as well. No doubt, the guy was a pure scorer. He didn't elevate the guys around him, didn't play any defense and certainly avoided the dirty places on the floor like the plague.

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Post #: 33

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/22/2018 10:54:45 AM

kgdabom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Barkley
McHale
Duncan
KG
Nowitzki
Weber

None of those guys ever played with a PG half as good as Stockton.

Majic is in Stockon's stratosphere. Nash is no where close.

First of all Kevin Johnson is at least half as good as Stockton. Probably more like 90%. None of those guys would have meshed with Stockton in the same way that Malone did. As for trying to put down Nash do it all you want. He is the best offensive player I have ever seen including Jordan, LeBron etc..
No one player has ever made an offense click as much as Steve Nash. Magic Came close but Nash shot so much better. Stockton not in the same realm as an offensive player.

Really? Tim Duncan. The Big Fundamental? He couldn't have meshed with Stockton? Same thing with all of those guys. They were great individual players, who also played a game that involved doing all of the little things to elevate the team. They ALL would have meshed seamlessly with Stockton.

Kevin Johnson 90% of Stockton? Not a chance. Johnson ranks with guys like Chauncey Billups who barely make the top 20 pg. Stockton is with guys like Majic and Isaah Thomas in the top 5. Nash comes up well short as well. No doubt, the guy was a pure scorer. He didn't elevate the guys around him, didn't play any defense and certainly avoided the dirty places on the floor like the plague.

Any of those guys could have meshed with Stockton, but there was something magical about the way Stockton and Malone meshed together. Stockton made Malone even better, but IMO Magic and Nash would have made Malone even more better. I don't think any of those other PFs would have meshed with Stockton as well as Malone did. KJ was a great player. I think you are way underrating him and you are overrating Stockton. As for Nash he was way more than a pure scorer. He was the very definition of elevating the guys around him. Check out what the guys who were ridiculously successful with Nash did without him. Their games took a huge dip in production. Yes Nash sucked on D. I have never said he didn't, but he was the best offensive player in NBA history by how he elevated the games of those around him and how incredibly efficient his own offensive game was as well.

< Message edited by kgdabom -- 7/22/2018 10:56:28 AM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/22/2018 11:27:38 AM

TJSweens

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1. Overrating, the most chronically underrated player in NBA history is impossible.

2. Who could have had the same impact with Malone
Majic, yes
Isaah, yes
Nash, not a chance in hell. Now there is an unbelievably overrated player.

3. The other guys with Stockton
Duncan: Nothing Malone could do that Duncan couldn't. wonderful fit.
Dirk, not on Malone's level defensively, played a terrific pick and roll game, much better shooter than Malone.
McHale. Until McHale screwed up his career by insisting on playing in the playoffs with stress fractures in both feet, you could make the case that McHale was better PF of his era than Malone.
Webber, see Dirk
Barkley, skilled old school power player like Malone.

Any of these guys would have had their careers elevated by playing with Stockton. And they had pretty damn good careers to begin with.

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Post #: 35

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/23/2018 7:47:15 AM

kgdabom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

1. Overrating, the most chronically underrated player in NBA history is impossible.

2. Who could have had the same impact with Malone
Majic, yes
Isaah, yes
Nash, not a chance in hell. Now there is an unbelievably overrated player.

3. The other guys with Stockton
Duncan: Nothing Malone could do that Duncan couldn't. wonderful fit.
Dirk, not on Malone's level defensively, played a terrific pick and roll game, much better shooter than Malone.
McHale. Until McHale screwed up his career by insisting on playing in the playoffs with stress fractures in both feet, you could make the case that McHale was better PF of his era than Malone.
Webber, see Dirk
Barkley, skilled old school power player like Malone.

Any of these guys would have had their careers elevated by playing with Stockton. And they had pretty damn good careers to begin with.

I'm sure all of those guys would have played great with Stockton, but IMO it wouldn't have been the same. As for Isaiah Thomas the original IT, he was a brilliant individual player, but would much better fit the description you so inappropriately gave Nash of not elevating those around him. Certainly not one of the great assisting PGs of all time.
Regarding Nash you can go on being a hater, but there has never been and possibly never will be a better offensive player than Nash. How he single handedly made those Suns teams offensive juggernauts defied logic. It's almost like you never watched him play to come up with your take on him. Why the hate and the disrespect? It's almost like he mistreated some important family member. Was it your mother, sister, wife or daughter? I'm trying to understand this.

< Message edited by kgdabom -- 7/23/2018 8:04:15 AM >

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So let it be done."

Post #: 36

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/23/2018 8:24:15 AM

TJSweens

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I am going to bow out at this point. I am approaching this from the perspective of sound logic and reason. You're coming at it from the perspective of being wrong and being too stubborn to admit it.

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"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 37

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/23/2018 10:03:00 AM

David Levine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I am going to bow out at this point. I am approaching this from the perspective of sound logic and reason. You're coming at it from the perspective of being wrong and being too stubborn to admit it.

Took you long enough...

Post #: 38

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/23/2018 10:07:08 AM

TJSweens

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I am going to bow out at this point. I am approaching this from the perspective of sound logic and reason. You're coming at it from the perspective of being wrong and being too stubborn to admit it.

Took you long enough...

Yeah, some times you just keep beating your head against a wall because it feels so good when you stop.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 39

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/23/2018 10:13:12 AM

David Levine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I am going to bow out at this point. I am approaching this from the perspective of sound logic and reason. You're coming at it from the perspective of being wrong and being too stubborn to admit it.

Took you long enough...

Yeah, some times you just keep beating your head against a wall because it feels so good when you stop.

I stopped bashing my head against the wall a good 3 years ago.

My head thanks me all the time.

Post #: 40

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/23/2018 11:34:15 AM

kgdabom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I am going to bow out at this point. I am approaching this from the perspective of sound logic and reason. You're coming at it from the perspective of being wrong and being too stubborn to admit it.

You never bowed in at any point so I don't see how you can bow out. There is nothing logical at all about what you are saying. You just despise Nash for some unknown reason. Yes he didn't play good defense. Check the statistics of the Suns offense with Nash running it. Now check what those players did when they did not have Nash running things. You just keep spouting negative talk about Nash with no basis in reality at all.

< Message edited by kgdabom -- 7/23/2018 11:40:26 AM >

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"So let it be written.
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Post #: 41

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/23/2018 11:35:46 AM

kgdabom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I am going to bow out at this point. I am approaching this from the perspective of sound logic and reason. You're coming at it from the perspective of being wrong and being too stubborn to admit it.

Took you long enough...

Yeah, some times you just keep beating your head against a wall because it feels so good when you stop.

Make a legit case Sweens because you have NOTHING to go on. DL is so good with the drive by. He knows his basketball but is really a jerk.

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 42

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/26/2018 10:54:02 PM

JT2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I am going to bow out at this point. I am approaching this from the perspective of sound logic and reason. You're coming at it from the perspective of being wrong and being too stubborn to admit it.

Took you long enough...

Yeah, some times you just keep beating your head against a wall because it feels so good when you stop.

Make a legit case Sweens because you have NOTHING to go on. DL is so good with the drive by. He knows his basketball but is really a jerk.

Seems like an opportune time to cease your perverted obsession to seek his approval.

Post #: 43

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/26/2018 11:21:03 PM

JT2

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I think I have Tony Parker on my underrated PG list too.

The base numbers probably don't help my case, but his speed and ability to score in the paint were amazing.

I think he had two consecutive seasons where he was 2nd in the league (to James) in points in the paint.

In his prime, nobody was quicker. He taxed every level of your defense every night.

< Message edited by JT2 -- 7/26/2018 11:22:35 PM >

Post #: 44

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/27/2018 9:46:32 AM

SoMnFan

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ORIGINAL: JT2

I think I have Tony Parker on my underrated PG list too.

The base numbers probably don't help my case, but his speed and ability to score in the paint were amazing.

I think he had two consecutive seasons where he was 2nd in the league (to James) in points in the paint.

In his prime, nobody was quicker. He taxed every level of your defense every night.

Amen brother
HIGHLY underrated imo
often watched and thought "that dude would be a nightmare to guard"

Post #: 45

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 7/27/2018 9:55:29 AM

kgdabom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

I think I have Tony Parker on my underrated PG list too.

The base numbers probably don't help my case, but his speed and ability to score in the paint were amazing.

I think he had two consecutive seasons where he was 2nd in the league (to James) in points in the paint.

In his prime, nobody was quicker. He taxed every level of your defense every night.

Amen brother
HIGHLY underrated imo
often watched and thought "that dude would be a nightmare to guard"

Parker was very good and a big part of some Spurs titles. If he had a three point shot also he could have been high on the best players list.

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"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 46

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 12/28/2018 9:33:19 PM

twinsfan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Barkley
McHale
Duncan
KG
Nowitzki
Weber

None of those guys ever played with a PG half as good as Stockton.

Majic is in Stockon's stratosphere. Nash is no where close.

First of all Kevin Johnson is at least half as good as Stockton. Probably more like 90%. None of those guys would have meshed with Stockton in the same way that Malone did. As for trying to put down Nash do it all you want. He is the best offensive player I have ever seen including Jordan, LeBron etc..
No one player has ever made an offense click as much as Steve Nash. Magic Came close but Nash shot so much better. Stockton not in the same realm as an offensive player.

Good post, kg. I would argue that Kevin Johnson was BETTER than Stockton. But that's probably just me. I'm a KJ fanboy.

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Post #: 47

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 12/28/2018 11:24:10 PM

kgdabom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

Sort of begs the question....would Stockton have been so tough without Malone behind him?

That I don’t know.
For all we know, if they played against each other, maybe Stockton tries set a screen on Malone and breaks his collar bone and is never healthy?

Anyways, I go Malone.
I pair him up with a very good point guard and I don’t miss a beat.

And I love Stockton.

Pair Stockton with another good PF and they don't miss a beat. I'm with David and JT. Stockton is the most chronically underrated player in NBA history. He is the ultimate, elevate everyone around him player, while playing a dominant individual game.

Stockton if anything was overrated. I watched him play a LOT. He got all the assists because the offense was designed for him to and Malone was so effective. They made each other, but if it was one or the other Malone made Stockton. Replace Malone with just about any of the better PFs and Stockton misses at least a beat and maybe a few beats. I've seen many PGs that IMO are better than Stockton. Payton, Paul, Magic of course, Thomas, Nash despite his crappy D was better.
Mark Jackson wasn't better, but is still the best passer I've ever seen and it may be a long time before anybody takes that away from him.

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Post #: 48

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 12/28/2018 11:30:03 PM

kgdabom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Barkley
McHale
Duncan
KG
Nowitzki
Weber

None of those guys ever played with a PG half as good as Stockton.

Majic is in Stockon's stratosphere. Nash is no where close.

First of all Kevin Johnson is at least half as good as Stockton. Probably more like 90%. None of those guys would have meshed with Stockton in the same way that Malone did. As for trying to put down Nash do it all you want. He is the best offensive player I have ever seen including Jordan, LeBron etc..
No one player has ever made an offense click as much as Steve Nash. Magic Came close but Nash shot so much better. Stockton not in the same realm as an offensive player.

Good post, kg. I would argue that Kevin Johnson was BETTER than Stockton. But that's probably just me. I'm a KJ fanboy.

I'm a huge KJ fan, but would give the edge to Stockton because of the durability. I think that needs to be factored in.

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Post #: 49

RE: Stockton or Malone? - 12/29/2018 10:57:52 AM

Mark Anderson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Barkley
McHale
Duncan
KG
Nowitzki
Weber

None of those guys ever played with a PG half as good as Stockton.

Majic is in Stockon's stratosphere. Nash is no where close.

First of all Kevin Johnson is at least half as good as Stockton. Probably more like 90%. None of those guys would have meshed with Stockton in the same way that Malone did. As for trying to put down Nash do it all you want. He is the best offensive player I have ever seen including Jordan, LeBron etc..
No one player has ever made an offense click as much as Steve Nash. Magic Came close but Nash shot so much better. Stockton not in the same realm as an offensive player.

Good post, kg. I would argue that Kevin Johnson was BETTER than Stockton. But that's probably just me. I'm a KJ fanboy.

I'm a huge KJ fan, but would give the edge to Stockton because of the durability. I think that needs to be factored in.

I give it to Stockton although there was a stretch where KJ was unguardable.

Stockton's pinpoint passing, the improved outside shot, the hard nosed defense.

And something that goes unnoticed, all the nasty screens and back picks he set. That should wear down a player of his size but it didn't.

< Message edited by Mark Anderson -- 12/29/2018 3:09:30 PM >

Post #: 50