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RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason

 
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RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 9:07:10 AM   
TJSweens


Posts: 37910
Joined: 7/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

I'll get yelled at for this ….
But to me the Sano thing is very very tough

To me ….. he is DAVID ORTIZ
The way we feel about Sano right now is how I felt about Ortiz here
And I was so happy we cut ties.
And the rest is history as they say
I have NO IDEA what to do with him.
I know what it feels like right now, but …..

and yeah, yeah, hes not Ortiz, yadda yadda .. I get it
But it feels like the same frustrating problem child

Yep

Keep working with him and hope he gets it? or trade him and see what happens

THE most frustrating player on the team.

Here is where I disagree. Ortiz made a hell of a lot more contact than Sano. He never hit less than .272 in a full season and his strike out rate was 1 in 5. Sano has a career average of .241 and strikes out 1 in 2.7 PA for his career.

At age 27, he still has the same bad habits that he has had since the beginning. Overly aggressive. Over swings. Constantly chases outside pitches.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 26
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 9:08:01 AM   
McMurfy


Posts: 13641
Joined: 7/31/2007
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BI6PiZ2scRY

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Post #: 27
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 9:11:20 AM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline
Pretty spot on Murf

We bad
At everything

One of the announcer groups last night really rubbed it in, went there …. since '91, we got nothin man
Nothin
We're no longer one of the desolate sports lands
We are the one

_____________________________

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Play like a Pirate.
Post #: 28
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 9:12:14 AM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline
Like I said would be pointed out, Sano and Ortiz are different, but the situation is eerily similar overall.

_____________________________

Work like a Captain.
Play like a Pirate.
Post #: 29
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 9:18:42 AM   
Brad H


Posts: 18665
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

I'll get yelled at for this ….
But to me the Sano thing is very very tough

To me ….. he is DAVID ORTIZ
The way we feel about Sano right now is how I felt about Ortiz here
And I was so happy we cut ties.
And the rest is history as they say
I have NO IDEA what to do with him.
I know what it feels like right now, but …..

and yeah, yeah, hes not Ortiz, yadda yadda .. I get it
But it feels like the same frustrating problem child

Yep

Keep working with him and hope he gets it? or trade him and see what happens

THE most frustrating player on the team.

Here is where I disagree. Ortiz made a hell of a lot more contact than Sano. He never hit less than .272 in a full season and his strike out rate was 1 in 5. Sano has a career average of .241 and strikes out 1 in 2.7 PA for his career.

At age 27, he still has the same bad habits that he has had since the beginning. Overly aggressive. Over swings. Constantly chases outside pitches.

Here's the thing about Sano. The guy has no discipline at the plate. He has plenty of power to hit a home run to any side of the field.

And yet, he was the guy in the 9th inning in game one that went opposite field for a hit to keep the hopes alive. He's an enigma.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!
Post #: 30
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 9:26:45 AM   
TJSweens


Posts: 37910
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

I'll get yelled at for this ….
But to me the Sano thing is very very tough

To me ….. he is DAVID ORTIZ
The way we feel about Sano right now is how I felt about Ortiz here
And I was so happy we cut ties.
And the rest is history as they say
I have NO IDEA what to do with him.
I know what it feels like right now, but …..

and yeah, yeah, hes not Ortiz, yadda yadda .. I get it
But it feels like the same frustrating problem child

Yep

Keep working with him and hope he gets it? or trade him and see what happens

THE most frustrating player on the team.

Here is where I disagree. Ortiz made a hell of a lot more contact than Sano. He never hit less than .272 in a full season and his strike out rate was 1 in 5. Sano has a career average of .241 and strikes out 1 in 2.7 PA for his career.

At age 27, he still has the same bad habits that he has had since the beginning. Overly aggressive. Over swings. Constantly chases outside pitches.

Here's the thing about Sano. The guy has no discipline at the plate. He has plenty of power to hit a home run to any side of the field.

And yet, he was the guy in the 9th inning in game one that went opposite field for a hit to keep the hopes alive. He's an enigma.

That's kind of the point I keep harping on too. When Sano keeps it simple and focuses on barreling the ball, it's a beautiful thing to watch. The man is just so freakin strong the ball flies out in all directions. When he tries to hit everything 900 feet (like the month of September), he just strikes out a lot.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 31
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 9:54:32 AM   
Steve Lentz


Posts: 35152
Joined: 7/19/2007
From: Omaha
Status: offline
Buxton and the injuries are a problem. Don't have an answer for it.
I would not get rid of Buxton. He's way too talented in every aspect of the game.
He carried this team for the short time he was playing. Way too much talent to give up on him.
We have to many other questions to worry about at this time.

_____________________________

" I believe empathy is the most essential quality of civilization"
Post #: 32
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 9:59:21 AM   
Brad H


Posts: 18665
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

Buxton and the injuries are a problem. Don't have an answer for it.
I would not get rid of Buxton. He's way too talented in every aspect of the game.
He carried this team for the short time he was playing. Way too much talent to give up on him.
We have to many other questions to worry about at this time.

He's a career .238 hitter. I would hardly call that someone that is irreplaceable.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 10/1/2020 10:00:33 AM >


_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!
Post #: 33
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 10:07:36 AM   
TJSweens


Posts: 37910
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

Buxton and the injuries are a problem. Don't have an answer for it.
I would not get rid of Buxton. He's way too talented in every aspect of the game.
He carried this team for the short time he was playing. Way too much talent to give up on him.
We have to many other questions to worry about at this time.

He's a career .238 hitter. I would hardly call that someone that is irreplaceable.

His average over the last 2 years is about 25 points higher than that. There is also more to it than average. His slugging the last 2 years is .513 and .577 and his OPS was .827 and .844.

More than that the Twins won 70% of their games with him in the lineup over the last 2 years and are barely .500 when he is out of the lineup.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 34
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 10:17:45 AM   
Steve Lentz


Posts: 35152
Joined: 7/19/2007
From: Omaha
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

Buxton and the injuries are a problem. Don't have an answer for it.
I would not get rid of Buxton. He's way too talented in every aspect of the game.
He carried this team for the short time he was playing. Way too much talent to give up on him.
We have to many other questions to worry about at this time.

He's a career .238 hitter. I would hardly call that someone that is irreplaceable.

I didn't say he was irreplaceable. I said he carried the team for a period this year while healthy. We have way too many players to make decisions on that don't bring the speed & defense he adds to the team. Health is what has hampered his development. I keep this stock while the value is still minimized.
Speaking of healthy it sure appears that a huge part of out team was beat up? Arraez and his
legs, Kepler and his groin, Sano, Polanco, Donaldson and Garver. We were missing a third of what was expected to be our regular offense. Kepler and Polanco looked tired and hurt.

Sano appears lazy to me. All the power in the world, but isn't in shape and hasn't made any improvement in his pitch recognition. Love his power, but he's a below average defender and has not improved his hitting. I like his potential, but if he can't get his shit together trade him.

_____________________________

" I believe empathy is the most essential quality of civilization"
Post #: 35
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 10:18:43 AM   
Steve Lentz


Posts: 35152
Joined: 7/19/2007
From: Omaha
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

Buxton and the injuries are a problem. Don't have an answer for it.
I would not get rid of Buxton. He's way too talented in every aspect of the game.
He carried this team for the short time he was playing. Way too much talent to give up on him.
We have to many other questions to worry about at this time.

He's a career .238 hitter. I would hardly call that someone that is irreplaceable.

His average over the last 2 years is about 25 points higher than that. There is also more to it than average. His slugging the last 2 years is .513 and .577 and his OPS was .827 and .844.

More than that the Twins won 70% of their games with him in the lineup over the last 2 years and are barely .500 when he is out of the lineup.

Buxton stays.

_____________________________

" I believe empathy is the most essential quality of civilization"
Post #: 36
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 10:21:19 AM   
Mr. Ed


Posts: 87660
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Minne-so-ta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

Buxton and the injuries are a problem. Don't have an answer for it.
I would not get rid of Buxton. He's way too talented in every aspect of the game.
He carried this team for the short time he was playing. Way too much talent to give up on him.
We have to many other questions to worry about at this time.

He's a career .238 hitter. I would hardly call that someone that is irreplaceable.

I didn't say he was irreplaceable. I said he carried the team for a period this year while healthy. We have way too many players to make decisions on that don't bring the speed & defense he adds to the team. Health is what has hampered his development. I keep this stock while the value is still minimized.
Speaking of healthy it sure appears that a huge part of out team was beat up? Arraez and his
legs, Kepler and his groin, Sano, Polanco, Donaldson and Garver. We were missing a third of what was expected to be our regular offense. Kepler and Polanco looked tired and hurt.

Sano appears lazy to me. All the power in the world, but isn't in shape and hasn't made any improvement in his pitch recognition. Love his power, but he's a below average defender and has not improved his hitting. I like his potential, but if he can't get his shit together trade him.



Steve is a little irritated by this fast exit, no? Read some of your posts in - game and yeah, thought to myself "Steve is a little pissed off at the Twins".

_____________________________

Escape while you can!
Post #: 37
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 10:24:32 AM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

Buxton and the injuries are a problem. Don't have an answer for it.
I would not get rid of Buxton. He's way too talented in every aspect of the game.
He carried this team for the short time he was playing. Way too much talent to give up on him.
We have to many other questions to worry about at this time.

He's a career .238 hitter. I would hardly call that someone that is irreplaceable.

I didn't say he was irreplaceable. I said he carried the team for a period this year while healthy. We have way too many players to make decisions on that don't bring the speed & defense he adds to the team. Health is what has hampered his development. I keep this stock while the value is still minimized.
Speaking of healthy it sure appears that a huge part of out team was beat up? Arraez and his
legs, Kepler and his groin, Sano, Polanco, Donaldson and Garver. We were missing a third of what was expected to be our regular offense. Kepler and Polanco looked tired and hurt.

Sano appears lazy to me. All the power in the world, but isn't in shape and hasn't made any improvement in his pitch recognition. Love his power, but he's a below average defender and has not improved his hitting. I like his potential, but if he can't get his shit together trade him.



Steve is a little irritated by this fast exit, no? Read some of your posts in - game and yeah, thought to myself "Steve is a little pissed off at the Twins".

and that, my friend, takes a lot

its time to be fed up around here

_____________________________

Work like a Captain.
Play like a Pirate.
Post #: 38
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 10:37:06 AM   
bstinger


Posts: 13460
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

Buxton and the injuries are a problem. Don't have an answer for it.
I would not get rid of Buxton. He's way too talented in every aspect of the game.
He carried this team for the short time he was playing. Way too much talent to give up on him.
We have to many other questions to worry about at this time.

He's a career .238 hitter. I would hardly call that someone that is irreplaceable.

I didn't say he was irreplaceable. I said he carried the team for a period this year while healthy. We have way too many players to make decisions on that don't bring the speed & defense he adds to the team. Health is what has hampered his development. I keep this stock while the value is still minimized.
Speaking of healthy it sure appears that a huge part of out team was beat up? Arraez and his
legs, Kepler and his groin, Sano, Polanco, Donaldson and Garver. We were missing a third of what was expected to be our regular offense. Kepler and Polanco looked tired and hurt.

Sano appears lazy to me. All the power in the world, but isn't in shape and hasn't made any improvement in his pitch recognition. Love his power, but he's a below average defender and has not improved his hitting. I like his potential, but if he can't get his shit together trade him.



Steve is a little irritated by this fast exit, no? Read some of your posts in - game and yeah, thought to myself "Steve is a little pissed off at the Twins".

and that, my friend, takes a lot

its time to be fed up around here



_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan
Post #: 39
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 10:46:44 AM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline
I'll say it again … I was shocked at the national experts reactions during the other games
It got a LOT of air time on each game
It was clearly

THIS IS TOO GOOD OF A TWINS TEAM TO NOT WIN IN THE POSTSEASON

Every one of them said it clearly.
Sometimes they don't tell the whole truth until its over.
They all were like "really really really good squad there, we don't get it"

_____________________________

Work like a Captain.
Play like a Pirate.
Post #: 40
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 10:53:08 AM   
Mr. Ed


Posts: 87660
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Minne-so-ta
Status: offline
What to do w/Cruz

last 10 games w/the bothersome knee didn't do much

Then the playoffs and

Nelson Cruz: 2-for-6, 2 doubles, 2 walks.
The rest of the #MNTwins: 5-for-53, no extra-base hits, eight walks.


I'm sure he'd like a couple year deal. Talk it out. Maybe a year w/mutual option.

_____________________________

Escape while you can!
Post #: 41
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 10:55:23 AM   
Brad H


Posts: 18665
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

Buxton and the injuries are a problem. Don't have an answer for it.
I would not get rid of Buxton. He's way too talented in every aspect of the game.
He carried this team for the short time he was playing. Way too much talent to give up on him.
We have to many other questions to worry about at this time.

He's a career .238 hitter. I would hardly call that someone that is irreplaceable.

His average over the last 2 years is about 25 points higher than that. There is also more to it than average. His slugging the last 2 years is .513 and .577 and his OPS was .827 and .844.

More than that the Twins won 70% of their games with him in the lineup over the last 2 years and are barely .500 when he is out of the lineup.

And he gets picked off when attempting to make a comeback in a playoff game.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!
Post #: 42
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 10:56:49 AM   
TJSweens


Posts: 37910
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

What to do w/Cruz

last 10 games w/the bothersome knee didn't do much

Then the playoffs and

Nelson Cruz: 2-for-6, 2 doubles, 2 walks.
The rest of the #MNTwins: 5-for-53, no extra-base hits, eight walks.


I'm sure he'd like a couple year deal. Talk it out. Maybe a year w/mutual option.

Gotta get him resigned. Cruz was dealing with a balky knee the last part of the season. We need his bat and we desperately need his leadership.

I liken him to a Torii Hunter. We lost Hunter and went straight in the toilet. Hunter came back and we just missed the playoffs. Hunter retired and we went right back in the toilet.

Some guys have that undefinable "something" that makes a team better by their mere presence and Cruz is one of those guys.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 43
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 10:57:43 AM   
TJSweens


Posts: 37910
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

Buxton and the injuries are a problem. Don't have an answer for it.
I would not get rid of Buxton. He's way too talented in every aspect of the game.
He carried this team for the short time he was playing. Way too much talent to give up on him.
We have to many other questions to worry about at this time.

He's a career .238 hitter. I would hardly call that someone that is irreplaceable.

His average over the last 2 years is about 25 points higher than that. There is also more to it than average. His slugging the last 2 years is .513 and .577 and his OPS was .827 and .844.

More than that the Twins won 70% of their games with him in the lineup over the last 2 years and are barely .500 when he is out of the lineup.

And he gets picked off when attempting to make a comeback in a playoff game.

So you're comparing a single play to a 2 year body of work?

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 44
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 11:13:47 AM   
ronhextall


Posts: 5269
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline
If the Twins "pay" Buxton that will be a serious problem when he is injured. Unlike the Yankees, the Twins have a self imposed salary cap and paying Buxton will have ramifications to the rest of the roster.
Post #: 45
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 11:14:38 AM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

What to do w/Cruz

last 10 games w/the bothersome knee didn't do much

Then the playoffs and

Nelson Cruz: 2-for-6, 2 doubles, 2 walks.
The rest of the #MNTwins: 5-for-53, no extra-base hits, eight walks.


I'm sure he'd like a couple year deal. Talk it out. Maybe a year w/mutual option.

Gotta get him resigned. Cruz was dealing with a balky knee the last part of the season. We need his bat and we desperately need his leadership.

I liken him to a Torii Hunter. We lost Hunter and went straight in the toilet. Hunter came back and we just missed the playoffs. Hunter retired and we went right back in the toilet.

Some guys have that undefinable "something" that makes a team better by their mere presence and Cruz is one of those guys.

End of that discussion
No brainer
Hunters a good comp
And Cruz is even more productive
Do what it takes
You want to see shit really fall apart?
Let that man go.

_____________________________

Work like a Captain.
Play like a Pirate.
Post #: 46
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 11:19:21 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 19044
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
Of all the guys on the Twins....Buxton, Maeda, and Cruz are irreplaceable.

Record with Buxton versus w/o.....CF Defense and Buck's Offense is hard to replace.


If you want to trade Sano, Rosario, Polanco, Kepler, Arreaz, Garver, and even Berrios---I see a way to replace them. Buck, Maeda, and Cruz seem to bring something a little extra to me.

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 47
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 11:27:47 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 19044
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall
If the Twins "pay" Buxton that will be a serious problem when he is injured. Unlike the Yankees, the Twins have a self imposed salary cap and paying Buxton will have ramifications to the rest of the roster.


What about Donaldson & Oddorizzi this year? Odor made two starts I believe....JD played less than half the games.

Buxton is a difference maker that was beaned 3 games before the playoffs. I think he is learning to not be so reckless....the guy has had incredibly bad luck on top of everything else. I remember a foul ball off of his toe. Add the beaning and things have to turn the other way don't they?

If we signed Sano for 4/40 that isn't a big investment for Buxton really--not a salary cap breaker.

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 48
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 11:31:04 AM   
Brad H


Posts: 18665
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

Buxton and the injuries are a problem. Don't have an answer for it.
I would not get rid of Buxton. He's way too talented in every aspect of the game.
He carried this team for the short time he was playing. Way too much talent to give up on him.
We have to many other questions to worry about at this time.

He's a career .238 hitter. I would hardly call that someone that is irreplaceable.

His average over the last 2 years is about 25 points higher than that. There is also more to it than average. His slugging the last 2 years is .513 and .577 and his OPS was .827 and .844.

More than that the Twins won 70% of their games with him in the lineup over the last 2 years and are barely .500 when he is out of the lineup.

And he gets picked off when attempting to make a comeback in a playoff game.

So you're comparing a single play to a 2 year body of work?

A two-year body of work? Or two, half-year bodies of work? Which is it? 87 and 39 games is not a body of work. It's a workout.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!
Post #: 49
RE: Twins 2020 Season Post Mortem and Offseason - 10/1/2020 11:35:54 AM  1 votes
Brad H


Posts: 18665
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Of all the guys on the Twins....Buxton, Maeda, and Cruz are irreplaceable.

Record with Buxton versus w/o.....CF Defense and Buck's Offense is hard to replace.


If you want to trade Sano, Rosario, Polanco, Kepler, Arreaz, Garver, and even Berrios---I see a way to replace them. Buck, Maeda, and Cruz seem to bring something a little extra to me.

The record with Buxton in the lineup is a ridiculous argument. It could also be said that he is a liability as a result of always being injured, thus causing more losses as a result.

It's a great argument for an agent, but doesn't hold much water on the field of play.

At the end of the day, the guy can't keep himself healthy and when he does he's a .238 lifetime hitter.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 10/1/2020 11:37:04 AM >


_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!
Post #: 50
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