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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 2:28:07 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28959
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Resigning SD is an option. If he prices himself out, for me it's >40M per, then a tag and trade is absolutely on the table. Tag and trades happen frequently. You work out trade comp with the trading team while a new contract is worked out. SD has input on partner and obv on new contract. Tag is applied and the trade consummated. All parties benefit and doesn't tie up cap space to go after FAs (I want CB Reed and Trey Smith). I'd expect to receive a 2025 2nd and a conditional 2026 pick. It doesn't screw SD over and helps restock draft picks. If terms aren't agreed to then you don't apply a tag. Upside is you've got a rookie QB contract, extra draft pick(s), and cap space to build with.

Is it a risk? Absolutely, just like Reid trading Smith after a career year to go with Mahomes. But KOC has gone over JJM college tape, worked with him a full offseason (almost), and is monitoring his season progress and system acclimation. It's pretty cool they have a webcam for JJM to watch SD in practice (maybe through a QB feed?). Plus JJM is doing VR. I'm comfortable going with Doug Jones and JJM next year.

I have zero angst about this decision.



Here is something covering the past 12 years: https://www.profootballrumors.com/2024/03/nfl-franchise-tag-recipients-since-2013

Looks a player was traded after being tagged eight times (three in 2019) in those 12 years. No QBs were traded.

And I don't recall an instance of a pre-planned tag and trade. Instead, it seems like they are franchised. Then speculation begins as to their disposition. DeVonte Adams for example.

What is your source for pre-planned tag and trades happening frequently?


As an aside, the Vikings are listed once (Ngakoue) in a trade that happened around the last day of August.

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 12/23/2024 3:15:12 PM >
Post #: 3876
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 2:29:20 PM   
TJSweens


Posts: 45082
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

FYI....Brandel isn't going to be replaced in the offseason.


PFF MIN Vikings
@PFF_Vikings
·
2m
The highest-graded Vikings in Week 16 vs the Seahawks:

🥇 Justin Jefferson - 81.5
🥈 Pat Jones II - 80.4
🥉 Sam Darnold - 78.4
🏅 Josh Metellus - 77.9
🏅 Blake Brandel - 76.2

(min. 25 snaps)

One week where he didn't statistically suck per PFF shouldn't be enough.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 3877
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 2:45:20 PM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 27672
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

FYI....Brandel isn't going to be replaced in the offseason.


PFF MIN Vikings
@PFF_Vikings
·
2m
The highest-graded Vikings in Week 16 vs the Seahawks:

🥇 Justin Jefferson - 81.5
🥈 Pat Jones II - 80.4
🥉 Sam Darnold - 78.4
🏅 Josh Metellus - 77.9
🏅 Blake Brandel - 76.2

(min. 25 snaps)

One week where he didn't statistically suck per PFF shouldn't be enough.


He was solid pretty much until Darrisaw was injured.

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 3878
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 3:08:03 PM   
ratoppenheimer


Posts: 9624
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Olson

It's a pipe dream to think we can sign Sam to a 3 yr/$120 mil

I can't imagine he will have to sign anything less than a 4 yr/$200

Maybe we can do a franchise tag, but that sucks for Sam and he (or rather, his agent) will do as much as he can to get out of it...

likely force a big trade, we get 2 firsts and keep our top ten pick QB and bolster the team with talent...and stay out of cap hell and someone else pays him $200 mil

and then we wallow in mediocrity because we gave up the best QB we have had since Daunte for an unproven prospect


wow...i was all excited for a moment....

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.
Post #: 3879
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 3:17:46 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28959
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

FYI....Brandel isn't going to be replaced in the offseason.


PFF MIN Vikings
@PFF_Vikings
·
2m
The highest-graded Vikings in Week 16 vs the Seahawks:

🥇 Justin Jefferson - 81.5
🥈 Pat Jones II - 80.4
🥉 Sam Darnold - 78.4
🏅 Josh Metellus - 77.9
🏅 Blake Brandel - 76.2

(min. 25 snaps)

One week where he didn't statistically suck per PFF shouldn't be enough.


He was solid pretty much until Darrisaw was injured.


People have different standards for "solid pretty much". Mediocre, run of the mill, barely adequate isn't part of that. The adage 'If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem' comes to mind.
Post #: 3880
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 3:36:33 PM   
Mark Anderson

 

Posts: 12223
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

FYI....Brandel isn't going to be replaced in the offseason.


PFF MIN Vikings
@PFF_Vikings
·
2m
The highest-graded Vikings in Week 16 vs the Seahawks:

🥇 Justin Jefferson - 81.5
🥈 Pat Jones II - 80.4
🥉 Sam Darnold - 78.4
🏅 Josh Metellus - 77.9
🏅 Blake Brandel - 76.2

(min. 25 snaps)

One week where he didn't statistically suck per PFF shouldn't be enough.


He was solid pretty much until Darrisaw was injured.


People have different standards for "solid pretty much". Mediocre, run of the mill, barely adequate isn't part of that. The adage 'If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem' comes to mind.

Does anyone have the season PFF grades for the Vikings? I think you need a subscription, right??
Post #: 3881
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 3:39:31 PM   
TJSweens


Posts: 45082
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

FYI....Brandel isn't going to be replaced in the offseason.


PFF MIN Vikings
@PFF_Vikings
·
2m
The highest-graded Vikings in Week 16 vs the Seahawks:

🥇 Justin Jefferson - 81.5
🥈 Pat Jones II - 80.4
🥉 Sam Darnold - 78.4
🏅 Josh Metellus - 77.9
🏅 Blake Brandel - 76.2

(min. 25 snaps)

One week where he didn't statistically suck per PFF shouldn't be enough.


He was solid pretty much until Darrisaw was injured.


People have different standards for "solid pretty much". Mediocre, run of the mill, barely adequate isn't part of that. The adage 'If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem' comes to mind.

If he can play decent only when playing next to someone elite, then he isn't good. Personally I wasn't impressed with him before Darrisaw got hurt.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 3882
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 3:39:57 PM   
Mark Anderson

 

Posts: 12223
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidAOlson

I guess this rebuilding year is going fine. So far.


For those interested, Chris Kluwe is in Bluesky, doing critiques of special team play (among other stuff).

Insta-critique of Myers 60 yard miss: "Lunged on his second step instead of driving through the ball"
https://bsky.app/profile/chriswarcraft.bsky.social/post/3ldwn23v3xs2o

"Vikings punter needs to get his ass into the kick. No follow through which is why his hangtime is struggling."
https://bsky.app/profile/chriswarcraft.bsky.social/post/3ldwlkp6ngk2o

Very detailed analysis of the blocked punt last week: "This block is on the left tackle (54). Chicago’s been showing jammers coming down the whole game, which necessitates a recount (54 has the L2), but they time it up right where everyone thinks it’s a seven man front except for 54, who chases wide because he thinks the motion guy is rushing. He compounds his error by taking his steps wide instead of straight back, which opens a hole for the inside rusher he’s supposed to be blocking (you should always drop straight back to let twists and loops play out in front of you). The personal protector *should have* been in position to clean up the missed block, since he sent the long snapper to the right (which means the PP has the left A gap), but he’s not looking for someone to come through free like that from what should be an easily blocked side. This is why communication on the line and taking your proper steps in the proper alignment are so important!"
https://bsky.app/profile/chriswarcraft.bsky.social/post/3ldhxq34wig2f (video & thread)

From earlier in the last game: "Vikings punter needs more followthrough. Gotta get your ass into the kick"
https://bsky.app/profile/chriswarcraft.bsky.social/post/3ldhth7orvr2v

"Have I mentioned I really like the Vikings’ kicker’s motion? [Yes he has] Because he’s got a real good motion."
https://bsky.app/profile/chriswarcraft.bsky.social/post/3ldhnpo7uxp2x

He got frustrated during the UCLA/Washington game:
"I DO NOT LIKE THE UCLA KICKER’S MOTION NO I DO NOT"
"DON’T LIKE THE WASHINGTON KICKER’S STANCE EITHER NOPE I DO NOT"
"STOP USING YOUR HIPS TO GENERATE POWER COLLEGE KICKER CHALLENGE GRADE IMPOASIBLE"
https://bsky.app/profile/chriswarcraft.bsky.social/post/3lb237dzgvn2o (***diagram on foot motion when using hips vs. not)

Or way back with Reichard was injured:
"Vikings kicker’s plant foot is too far forward, that’s why he’s pushing it right."
Later in thread: "Sounds like he has some kind of injury, so he’s probably overcompensating with his step in trying to get enough power"
https://bsky.app/profile/chriswarcraft.bsky.social/post/3la3oflfheq2g

One of the responses was amusing:
Q: A plausible theory. But have you considered the Vikings have offended the Gods?
A: Also plausible


Occasionally he'll do a quick analysis of a kick video from various teams. I didn't pull out any examples.


Anyway, IIRC he thinks the Eagles kicker uses his hips too much, which makes him less consistent. Something to keep in mind during the playoffs. Kickers who use their hips tend to have short careers, maybe 2-3 years, because if their timing is ever off, they're finished.


Don't care about Kluwe any more...

I'm starting to wonder if the kicking balls are juiced. Back when they started using kicking balls(K Balls), they were said to not go as far as a used game ball. Now, all of the sudden, guys are ripping 55 to 60 yarders with ease.
Post #: 3883
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 3:42:34 PM   
Mark Anderson

 

Posts: 12223
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Resigning SD is an option. If he prices himself out, for me it's >40M per, then a tag and trade is absolutely on the table. Tag and trades happen frequently. You work out trade comp with the trading team while a new contract is worked out. SD has input on partner and obv on new contract. Tag is applied and the trade consummated. All parties benefit and doesn't tie up cap space to go after FAs (I want CB Reed and Trey Smith). I'd expect to receive a 2025 2nd and a conditional 2026 pick. It doesn't screw SD over and helps restock draft picks. If terms aren't agreed to then you don't apply a tag. Upside is you've got a rookie QB contract, extra draft pick(s), and cap space to build with.

Is it a risk? Absolutely, just like Reid trading Smith after a career year to go with Mahomes. But KOC has gone over JJM college tape, worked with him a full offseason (almost), and is monitoring his season progress and system acclimation. It's pretty cool they have a webcam for JJM to watch SD in practice (maybe through a QB feed?). Plus JJM is doing VR. I'm comfortable going with Doug Jones and JJM next year.

I have zero angst about this decision.



Here is something covering the past 12 years: https://www.profootballrumors.com/2024/03/nfl-franchise-tag-recipients-since-2013

Looks a player was traded after being tagged eight times (three in 2019) in those 12 years. No QBs were traded.

And I don't recall an instance of a pre-planned tag and trade. Instead, it seems like they are franchised. Then speculation begins as to their disposition. DeVonte Adams for example.

What is your source for pre-planned tag and trades happening frequently?


As an aside, the Vikings are listed once (Ngakoue) in a trade that happened around the last day of August.

If we don't Franchise Darnold, we are idiots. At least get a 2nd or 3rd rounder(negotiated) for him if a team offers up an offer sheet.
Post #: 3884
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 4:01:06 PM   
ratoppenheimer


Posts: 9624
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: online
.
in the pff grading system 84 to 70 is a starter, 69 to 60 is a backup...looks like we have not had what would be considered a starter in the middle of our o-line this season....

brandel…57.4….82nd
bradbury…63.2 (48.9 pass)…26th
risner…63.9…(74.2 pass)…51st
ingram…54…97th

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.
Post #: 3885
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 4:06:10 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 78055
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Resigning SD is an option. If he prices himself out, for me it's >40M per, then a tag and trade is absolutely on the table. Tag and trades happen frequently. You work out trade comp with the trading team while a new contract is worked out. SD has input on partner and obv on new contract. Tag is applied and the trade consummated. All parties benefit and doesn't tie up cap space to go after FAs (I want CB Reed and Trey Smith). I'd expect to receive a 2025 2nd and a conditional 2026 pick. It doesn't screw SD over and helps restock draft picks. If terms aren't agreed to then you don't apply a tag. Upside is you've got a rookie QB contract, extra draft pick(s), and cap space to build with.

Is it a risk? Absolutely, just like Reid trading Smith after a career year to go with Mahomes. But KOC has gone over JJM college tape, worked with him a full offseason (almost), and is monitoring his season progress and system acclimation. It's pretty cool they have a webcam for JJM to watch SD in practice (maybe through a QB feed?). Plus JJM is doing VR. I'm comfortable going with Doug Jones and JJM next year.

I have zero angst about this decision.



Here is something covering the past 12 years: https://www.profootballrumors.com/2024/03/nfl-franchise-tag-recipients-since-2013

Looks a player was traded after being tagged eight times (three in 2019) in those 12 years. No QBs were traded.

And I don't recall an instance of a pre-planned tag and trade. Instead, it seems like they are franchised. Then speculation begins as to their disposition. DeVonte Adams for example.

What is your source for pre-planned tag and trades happening frequently?


As an aside, the Vikings are listed once (Ngakoue) in a trade that happened around the last day of August.

If we don't Franchise Darnold, we are idiots. At least get a 2nd or 3rd rounder(negotiated) for him if a team offers up an offer sheet.


If we franchise him, no other team can speak to him. There would be no offer sheet.
Post #: 3886
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 4:08:35 PM   
ratoppenheimer


Posts: 9624
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: online
.
darrisaw...81.4...12th
o'neill...81.9...11th

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.
Post #: 3887
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 4:18:03 PM   
Steve Lentz


Posts: 36210
Joined: 7/19/2007
From: Omaha
Status: offline
What a great performance from the Vikes this year. I was pretty certain we would end up last in our Division. Hoping for some more BIG Wins.
Would be foolish not to make a legitimate attempt to keep Bradford.
Enjoyed seeing Dallas Turner making a couple plays.

_____________________________

" I believe empathy is the most essential quality of civilization"
Post #: 3888
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 4:54:03 PM   
ratoppenheimer


Posts: 9624
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: online
.
From the Athletic in the NY times....


Here’s how insiders would solve the Darnold dilemma.

“Sam Darnold will be a Viking next year unless he bombs in the playoffs,” read the text from a veteran NFL player agent.

This impromptu conversation quickly grew as the Vikings notched their eighth consecutive victory, 27-24, in running their record to an improbable 13-2.

This is a round table discussion between six NFL insiders - agents, executives, and coaches handicapping where the biggest surprise story of the season goes from here.

1. The Vikings aren’t just the most surprising team this season. They’re among the most surprising teams of the past 36 seasons. That will have implications for their QB (and their head coach).

The Vikings have already exceeded their Vegas preseason win total (6.5) by 6.5. That is tied for the second-best differential among 1,711 teams through 15 games since 1989.


Against that backdrop, we pick up the conversation with league insiders.

Exec No. 1: “This season has proved Sam needs Justin Jefferson, Jordan Addison, (T.J.) Hockenson, one of the grittiest offensive lines and a top back in Aaron Jones. If you are Minnesota, you wave goodbye to Sam, wish him luck and hope he signs for $50 million with some team that thinks they are a quarterback away, but doesn’t have all those things Minnesota has. You get the premium comp pick, you found your next Sam Darnold in Daniel Jones and you already have your draft pick (McCarthy) ready to go. That is what a smart organization does.”

Exec No. 2: “I agree, except for the Daniel Jones piece. Jones isn’t a real option.”

Exec No. 3: “What if they just franchise-tagged Darnold, which then keeps McCarthy in play for the future?”

Agent: “They can afford that. What they can’t afford is turning it over to a rookie coming off a season-ending injury. The only Darnold caveat at this point is the playoffs.”


Could there be a compromise solution?

The 2011 49ers (7.5 preseason Vegas win total) went 13-3 and reached the NFC Championship Game with a reborn Alex Smith behind center. They had used a 2011 second-round pick on Colin Kaepernick but were in no rush to play him. Smith, then 27, had bonded with new coach Jim Harbaugh after struggling under different coaches for years. He wanted to stay, but the 49ers weren’t interested in a market-setting extension.

San Francisco let Smith test the market at a time when Peyton Manning was the most coveted free agent in years (and Harbaugh met with Manning covertly before the QB signed with Denver). Smith didn’t find what he was looking for elsewhere. He re-signed with the 49ers on a deal with the No. 20 annual average among quarterbacks, got hurt midway through the next season, watched Kaepernick start in the Super Bowl and was soon traded to Kansas City.


Exec No. 2: “To get a compromise deal from Darnold, the Vikings have to be willing to let him hit the market.”

Agent: “That’s the last thing Minnesota should do. Too many teams need QBs.”

Exec No. 2: “It’s really not that scary. Some teams are picking high and will draft QBs. Some won’t be able to afford it. Tennessee could be interesting.”

Coach: “If I’m Darnold and the Vikings move on from me, whatever Brock Purdy wants from the 49ers, I want less. If he says to San Francisco, ‘I’ll be your starting quarterback for $15 million a year or whatever and Brock Purdy is asking for $45 million, how does San Francisco sit there and say Brock Purdy is the guy they are going with?”

Exec No. 2: “What is the difference between Darnold and Baker Mayfield? That should be instructive for his market.”


Mayfield re-signed with Tampa Bay for $33 million per year, which ranks 18th among quarterback averages. He knew the Buccaneers did not have his replacement lined up. He knew Tampa Bay was interested in re-signing him. Darnold’s market could suffer if the Vikings like McCarthy enough to move forward with the Michigan product, which was always their plan anyway.

There are other fascinating implications for this breakout Vikings season. Coach Kevin O’Connell has no contract beyond the 2025 season. His star is growing with every successful start from Darnold. He’ll likely drive whatever quarterback decision the Vikings make. He only figures to gain influence within the organization if he continues to stack the victories. He’s already the first coach in Vikings history with two 13-win seasons.

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.
Post #: 3889
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 4:55:36 PM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 27672
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

FYI....Brandel isn't going to be replaced in the offseason.


PFF MIN Vikings
@PFF_Vikings
·
2m
The highest-graded Vikings in Week 16 vs the Seahawks:

🥇 Justin Jefferson - 81.5
🥈 Pat Jones II - 80.4
🥉 Sam Darnold - 78.4
🏅 Josh Metellus - 77.9
🏅 Blake Brandel - 76.2

(min. 25 snaps)

One week where he didn't statistically suck per PFF shouldn't be enough.


He was solid pretty much until Darrisaw was injured.


People have different standards for "solid pretty much". Mediocre, run of the mill, barely adequate isn't part of that. The adage 'If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem' comes to mind.

If he can play decent only when playing next to someone elite, then he isn't good. Personally I wasn't impressed with him before Darrisaw got hurt.


The only one making any coin outside of our tackles is Bradbury and he isn't high end money:

Brandel 1.9 million
Ingram 1.6 million
Risner 2.4 million
Bradbury 5.7 million

It is how we were able to fill out the rest of the roster so we better draft them as it may cost 15-20 million to get just one good one.

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 3890
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 4:58:02 PM   
ratoppenheimer


Posts: 9624
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Resigning SD is an option. If he prices himself out, for me it's >40M per, then a tag and trade is absolutely on the table. Tag and trades happen frequently. You work out trade comp with the trading team while a new contract is worked out. SD has input on partner and obv on new contract. Tag is applied and the trade consummated. All parties benefit and doesn't tie up cap space to go after FAs (I want CB Reed and Trey Smith). I'd expect to receive a 2025 2nd and a conditional 2026 pick. It doesn't screw SD over and helps restock draft picks. If terms aren't agreed to then you don't apply a tag. Upside is you've got a rookie QB contract, extra draft pick(s), and cap space to build with.

Is it a risk? Absolutely, just like Reid trading Smith after a career year to go with Mahomes. But KOC has gone over JJM college tape, worked with him a full offseason (almost), and is monitoring his season progress and system acclimation. It's pretty cool they have a webcam for JJM to watch SD in practice (maybe through a QB feed?). Plus JJM is doing VR. I'm comfortable going with Doug Jones and JJM next year.

I have zero angst about this decision.



Here is something covering the past 12 years: https://www.profootballrumors.com/2024/03/nfl-franchise-tag-recipients-since-2013

Looks a player was traded after being tagged eight times (three in 2019) in those 12 years. No QBs were traded.

And I don't recall an instance of a pre-planned tag and trade. Instead, it seems like they are franchised. Then speculation begins as to their disposition. DeVonte Adams for example.

What is your source for pre-planned tag and trades happening frequently?


As an aside, the Vikings are listed once (Ngakoue) in a trade that happened around the last day of August.

If we don't Franchise Darnold, we are idiots. At least get a 2nd or 3rd rounder(negotiated) for him if a team offers up an offer sheet.


If we franchise him, no other team can speak to him. There would be no offer sheet.



we need to get darnold's people involved in any conversation with another team...if they cooperate, they can help pick the team sam plays for next season....

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.
Post #: 3891
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 5:03:26 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 78055
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Resigning SD is an option. If he prices himself out, for me it's >40M per, then a tag and trade is absolutely on the table. Tag and trades happen frequently. You work out trade comp with the trading team while a new contract is worked out. SD has input on partner and obv on new contract. Tag is applied and the trade consummated. All parties benefit and doesn't tie up cap space to go after FAs (I want CB Reed and Trey Smith). I'd expect to receive a 2025 2nd and a conditional 2026 pick. It doesn't screw SD over and helps restock draft picks. If terms aren't agreed to then you don't apply a tag. Upside is you've got a rookie QB contract, extra draft pick(s), and cap space to build with.

Is it a risk? Absolutely, just like Reid trading Smith after a career year to go with Mahomes. But KOC has gone over JJM college tape, worked with him a full offseason (almost), and is monitoring his season progress and system acclimation. It's pretty cool they have a webcam for JJM to watch SD in practice (maybe through a QB feed?). Plus JJM is doing VR. I'm comfortable going with Doug Jones and JJM next year.

I have zero angst about this decision.



Here is something covering the past 12 years: https://www.profootballrumors.com/2024/03/nfl-franchise-tag-recipients-since-2013

Looks a player was traded after being tagged eight times (three in 2019) in those 12 years. No QBs were traded.

And I don't recall an instance of a pre-planned tag and trade. Instead, it seems like they are franchised. Then speculation begins as to their disposition. DeVonte Adams for example.

What is your source for pre-planned tag and trades happening frequently?


As an aside, the Vikings are listed once (Ngakoue) in a trade that happened around the last day of August.

If we don't Franchise Darnold, we are idiots. At least get a 2nd or 3rd rounder(negotiated) for him if a team offers up an offer sheet.


If we franchise him, no other team can speak to him. There would be no offer sheet.



we need to get darnold's people involved in any conversation with another team...if they cooperate, they can help pick the team sam plays for next season....


What is your plan? Threaten to franchise him if he plans to sign elsewhere?
Post #: 3892
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 5:07:30 PM   
Mark Anderson

 

Posts: 12223
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Resigning SD is an option. If he prices himself out, for me it's >40M per, then a tag and trade is absolutely on the table. Tag and trades happen frequently. You work out trade comp with the trading team while a new contract is worked out. SD has input on partner and obv on new contract. Tag is applied and the trade consummated. All parties benefit and doesn't tie up cap space to go after FAs (I want CB Reed and Trey Smith). I'd expect to receive a 2025 2nd and a conditional 2026 pick. It doesn't screw SD over and helps restock draft picks. If terms aren't agreed to then you don't apply a tag. Upside is you've got a rookie QB contract, extra draft pick(s), and cap space to build with.

Is it a risk? Absolutely, just like Reid trading Smith after a career year to go with Mahomes. But KOC has gone over JJM college tape, worked with him a full offseason (almost), and is monitoring his season progress and system acclimation. It's pretty cool they have a webcam for JJM to watch SD in practice (maybe through a QB feed?). Plus JJM is doing VR. I'm comfortable going with Doug Jones and JJM next year.

I have zero angst about this decision.



Here is something covering the past 12 years: https://www.profootballrumors.com/2024/03/nfl-franchise-tag-recipients-since-2013

Looks a player was traded after being tagged eight times (three in 2019) in those 12 years. No QBs were traded.

And I don't recall an instance of a pre-planned tag and trade. Instead, it seems like they are franchised. Then speculation begins as to their disposition. DeVonte Adams for example.

What is your source for pre-planned tag and trades happening frequently?


As an aside, the Vikings are listed once (Ngakoue) in a trade that happened around the last day of August.

If we don't Franchise Darnold, we are idiots. At least get a 2nd or 3rd rounder(negotiated) for him if a team offers up an offer sheet.


If we franchise him, no other team can speak to him. There would be no offer sheet.

I think that it is Exclusive Rights Franchise Tag.

This would be the regular Franchise Tag. Other teams could give him offer sheet. We can match or get compensation.
Post #: 3893
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 5:23:32 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 78055
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Resigning SD is an option. If he prices himself out, for me it's >40M per, then a tag and trade is absolutely on the table. Tag and trades happen frequently. You work out trade comp with the trading team while a new contract is worked out. SD has input on partner and obv on new contract. Tag is applied and the trade consummated. All parties benefit and doesn't tie up cap space to go after FAs (I want CB Reed and Trey Smith). I'd expect to receive a 2025 2nd and a conditional 2026 pick. It doesn't screw SD over and helps restock draft picks. If terms aren't agreed to then you don't apply a tag. Upside is you've got a rookie QB contract, extra draft pick(s), and cap space to build with.

Is it a risk? Absolutely, just like Reid trading Smith after a career year to go with Mahomes. But KOC has gone over JJM college tape, worked with him a full offseason (almost), and is monitoring his season progress and system acclimation. It's pretty cool they have a webcam for JJM to watch SD in practice (maybe through a QB feed?). Plus JJM is doing VR. I'm comfortable going with Doug Jones and JJM next year.

I have zero angst about this decision.



Here is something covering the past 12 years: https://www.profootballrumors.com/2024/03/nfl-franchise-tag-recipients-since-2013

Looks a player was traded after being tagged eight times (three in 2019) in those 12 years. No QBs were traded.

And I don't recall an instance of a pre-planned tag and trade. Instead, it seems like they are franchised. Then speculation begins as to their disposition. DeVonte Adams for example.

What is your source for pre-planned tag and trades happening frequently?


As an aside, the Vikings are listed once (Ngakoue) in a trade that happened around the last day of August.

If we don't Franchise Darnold, we are idiots. At least get a 2nd or 3rd rounder(negotiated) for him if a team offers up an offer sheet.


If we franchise him, no other team can speak to him. There would be no offer sheet.

I think that it is Exclusive Rights Franchise Tag.

This would be the regular Franchise Tag. Other teams could give him offer sheet. We can match or get compensation.


Oh right. So we would basically have to threaten to match it unless they gave us whatever compensation we could agree on?
Post #: 3894
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 5:27:31 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28959
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Resigning SD is an option. If he prices himself out, for me it's >40M per, then a tag and trade is absolutely on the table. Tag and trades happen frequently. You work out trade comp with the trading team while a new contract is worked out. SD has input on partner and obv on new contract. Tag is applied and the trade consummated. All parties benefit and doesn't tie up cap space to go after FAs (I want CB Reed and Trey Smith). I'd expect to receive a 2025 2nd and a conditional 2026 pick. It doesn't screw SD over and helps restock draft picks. If terms aren't agreed to then you don't apply a tag. Upside is you've got a rookie QB contract, extra draft pick(s), and cap space to build with.

Is it a risk? Absolutely, just like Reid trading Smith after a career year to go with Mahomes. But KOC has gone over JJM college tape, worked with him a full offseason (almost), and is monitoring his season progress and system acclimation. It's pretty cool they have a webcam for JJM to watch SD in practice (maybe through a QB feed?). Plus JJM is doing VR. I'm comfortable going with Doug Jones and JJM next year.

I have zero angst about this decision.



Here is something covering the past 12 years: https://www.profootballrumors.com/2024/03/nfl-franchise-tag-recipients-since-2013

Looks a player was traded after being tagged eight times (three in 2019) in those 12 years. No QBs were traded.

And I don't recall an instance of a pre-planned tag and trade. Instead, it seems like they are franchised. Then speculation begins as to their disposition. DeVonte Adams for example.

What is your source for pre-planned tag and trades happening frequently?


As an aside, the Vikings are listed once (Ngakoue) in a trade that happened around the last day of August.

If we don't Franchise Darnold, we are idiots. At least get a 2nd or 3rd rounder(negotiated) for him if a team offers up an offer sheet.


If we franchise him, no other team can speak to him. There would be no offer sheet.

I think that it is Exclusive Rights Franchise Tag.

This would be the regular Franchise Tag. Other teams could give him offer sheet. We can match or get compensation.


NON-EXCLUSIVE TAG: This tag allows the player to sign an offer sheet with another team. The original team has the right to match the offer or receive two first-round draft picks in compensation if the player leaves. This is the most common type of tag.

EXCLUSIVE TAG: This tag completely binds the player to his team. His agent is prohibited from seeking an offer sheet.

TRANSITION TAG: This tag works like the nonexclusive franchise tag, except it only provides the original team the right to match the other team's offer. If the original team decides not to offer a matching bid, it gets no compensation when the player leaves.

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 12/23/2024 5:30:07 PM >
Post #: 3895
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 5:37:46 PM   
Mark Anderson

 

Posts: 12223
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Resigning SD is an option. If he prices himself out, for me it's >40M per, then a tag and trade is absolutely on the table. Tag and trades happen frequently. You work out trade comp with the trading team while a new contract is worked out. SD has input on partner and obv on new contract. Tag is applied and the trade consummated. All parties benefit and doesn't tie up cap space to go after FAs (I want CB Reed and Trey Smith). I'd expect to receive a 2025 2nd and a conditional 2026 pick. It doesn't screw SD over and helps restock draft picks. If terms aren't agreed to then you don't apply a tag. Upside is you've got a rookie QB contract, extra draft pick(s), and cap space to build with.

Is it a risk? Absolutely, just like Reid trading Smith after a career year to go with Mahomes. But KOC has gone over JJM college tape, worked with him a full offseason (almost), and is monitoring his season progress and system acclimation. It's pretty cool they have a webcam for JJM to watch SD in practice (maybe through a QB feed?). Plus JJM is doing VR. I'm comfortable going with Doug Jones and JJM next year.

I have zero angst about this decision.



Here is something covering the past 12 years: https://www.profootballrumors.com/2024/03/nfl-franchise-tag-recipients-since-2013

Looks a player was traded after being tagged eight times (three in 2019) in those 12 years. No QBs were traded.

And I don't recall an instance of a pre-planned tag and trade. Instead, it seems like they are franchised. Then speculation begins as to their disposition. DeVonte Adams for example.

What is your source for pre-planned tag and trades happening frequently?


As an aside, the Vikings are listed once (Ngakoue) in a trade that happened around the last day of August.

If we don't Franchise Darnold, we are idiots. At least get a 2nd or 3rd rounder(negotiated) for him if a team offers up an offer sheet.


If we franchise him, no other team can speak to him. There would be no offer sheet.

I think that it is Exclusive Rights Franchise Tag.

This would be the regular Franchise Tag. Other teams could give him offer sheet. We can match or get compensation.


Oh right. So we would basically have to threaten to match it unless they gave us whatever compensation we could agree on?

And this isn't Mahomes or Josh Allen. Teams aren't going to give up two 1's for Darnold. Maybe you could get a one first rounder, more than likely a 2nd rounder at the most.

And if no one bites. We have a 28 year QB who just won us a ton of games for 41M. We can still sign some significant FAs as long as we don't front load. It is basically SB or bust for Darnold(in 2025) with JJM waiting in the wings.
Post #: 3896
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 5:39:39 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28959
Status: offline
From Feb 2024: https://www.colts.com/news/nfl-franchise-tag-explained-information-transition-exclusive-michael-pittman

Non-exclusive franchise tag: The much more common tag. Players can negotiate and sign offer sheets with any team once the new league year begins, but the player's previous team retains the right to match that offer sheet. If they do not match it, that team will receive two first-round picks from the team that signed the player to an offer sheet. The last time a player who had the non-exclusive tag placed on him changed teams was 2000, when the Seattle Seahawks declined to match the Dallas Cowboys' offer sheet for wide receiver Joey Galloway and received two first-round picks in return. The salary for the non-exclusive franchise tag is lower than the exclusive tag, as it's determined by the higher figure between: the average of the top five salaries at a player's position over the last five years applied to the current salary cap, or 120 percent of the player's previous salary.

So, if the article is true then it's rare. Less rare in terms of changing teams, but something that happen on average 1-2 times a year, appears to be the Exclusive Tag is applied and down the road the team ends up trading the player. Like Ngakoue.
Post #: 3897
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 5:40:39 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 78055
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Resigning SD is an option. If he prices himself out, for me it's >40M per, then a tag and trade is absolutely on the table. Tag and trades happen frequently. You work out trade comp with the trading team while a new contract is worked out. SD has input on partner and obv on new contract. Tag is applied and the trade consummated. All parties benefit and doesn't tie up cap space to go after FAs (I want CB Reed and Trey Smith). I'd expect to receive a 2025 2nd and a conditional 2026 pick. It doesn't screw SD over and helps restock draft picks. If terms aren't agreed to then you don't apply a tag. Upside is you've got a rookie QB contract, extra draft pick(s), and cap space to build with.

Is it a risk? Absolutely, just like Reid trading Smith after a career year to go with Mahomes. But KOC has gone over JJM college tape, worked with him a full offseason (almost), and is monitoring his season progress and system acclimation. It's pretty cool they have a webcam for JJM to watch SD in practice (maybe through a QB feed?). Plus JJM is doing VR. I'm comfortable going with Doug Jones and JJM next year.

I have zero angst about this decision.



Here is something covering the past 12 years: https://www.profootballrumors.com/2024/03/nfl-franchise-tag-recipients-since-2013

Looks a player was traded after being tagged eight times (three in 2019) in those 12 years. No QBs were traded.

And I don't recall an instance of a pre-planned tag and trade. Instead, it seems like they are franchised. Then speculation begins as to their disposition. DeVonte Adams for example.

What is your source for pre-planned tag and trades happening frequently?


As an aside, the Vikings are listed once (Ngakoue) in a trade that happened around the last day of August.

If we don't Franchise Darnold, we are idiots. At least get a 2nd or 3rd rounder(negotiated) for him if a team offers up an offer sheet.


If we franchise him, no other team can speak to him. There would be no offer sheet.

I think that it is Exclusive Rights Franchise Tag.

This would be the regular Franchise Tag. Other teams could give him offer sheet. We can match or get compensation.


Oh right. So we would basically have to threaten to match it unless they gave us whatever compensation we could agree on?

And this isn't Mahomes or Josh Allen. Teams aren't going to give up two 1's for Darnold. Maybe you could get a one first rounder, more than likely a 2nd rounder at the most.

And if no one bites. We have a 28 year QB who just won us a ton of games for 41M. We can still sign some significant FAs as long as we don't front load. It is basically SB or bust for Darnold(in 2025) with JJM waiting in the wings.


How often does that happen? The Non-Exclusive Franchise Tag has been used only 14 times over the past 2 years. 13 of those players are with their same teams.
Post #: 3898
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 5:43:06 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28959
Status: offline
So we CAN do anything. Whether it's wise is another story. If you are depending on the whims of another team, it moves towards foolishness.

At least that's the impression after only a few minutes of googling.
Post #: 3899
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2024 5:46:55 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 78055
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
I guess basically you can find a team that wants him, and tell them we won't franchise him if they give us a 2nd round pick?

And then what? We enter into a sign and trade where we don't get stuck with any cap hit in the process?
Post #: 3900
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