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RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/5/2025 9:58:30 AM   
Daniel Lee Young

 

Posts: 14683
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

https://www.minnesotasportsfan.com/minnesota-vikings/minnesota-vikings-news/vikings-are-really-happy-with-jj-mccarthy-according-to-new-report/



"...and now he’s not only up and running, but he’s also throwing the ball again."



“… and continuing to develop off the field.” Is that like wardrobe choices and personal hygiene?

Yeah he’s ready.

Forget the ‘40M One Year Drop In The Bucket’ Darnold.

Time to start focusing on cool TEs again.


Time to start grabbing every good guard and a strong, intelligent center, that we can find, regardless of cost.

Stop trading draft picks, period.
Post #: 5676
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/5/2025 11:24:38 AM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5978
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

https://www.minnesotasportsfan.com/minnesota-vikings/minnesota-vikings-news/vikings-are-really-happy-with-jj-mccarthy-according-to-new-report/



"...and now he’s not only up and running, but he’s also throwing the ball again."



“… and continuing to develop off the field.” Is that like wardrobe choices and personal hygiene?

Yeah he’s ready.

Forget the ‘40M One Year Drop In The Bucket’ Darnold.

Time to start focusing on cool TEs again.


Time to start grabbing every good guard and a strong, intelligent center, that we can find, regardless of cost.

Stop trading draft picks, period.

Absolutely. Not sure how to complete an IOL set AND secondary in one offseason … that would be remarkable … I can survive another year of ho-hum DL if major headway is made at C-G-CB-S (not in order).

I remember my last period of being on the positive / supportive side of the purple bandwagon … Spiels had just had an epiphany in 2017 that OL were important (after our leg got ripped off in 2016) … we signed Reiff and Remmers and drafted Elflein. Good things happened, even with a back-up QB and anti-offense Zimmer. Which is what we need to start this free agency. That kind of attentionto the OL. Not that those players worked out past 2017 …

I rode the bandwagon well past the signing of Kirk. Then like Zimmer, I shriveled up and got tossed onto the toxic negative nelly curb.
Post #: 5677
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/5/2025 1:37:14 PM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 28596
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

https://www.minnesotasportsfan.com/minnesota-vikings/minnesota-vikings-news/vikings-are-really-happy-with-jj-mccarthy-according-to-new-report/



"...and now he’s not only up and running, but he’s also throwing the ball again."



“… and continuing to develop off the field.” Is that like wardrobe choices and personal hygiene?

Yeah he’s ready.

Forget the ‘40M One Year Drop In The Bucket’ Darnold.

Time to start focusing on cool TEs again.


Time to start grabbing every good guard and a strong, intelligent center, that we can find, regardless of cost.

Stop trading draft picks, period.

Absolutely. Not sure how to complete an IOL set AND secondary in one offseason … that would be remarkable … I can survive another year of ho-hum DL if major headway is made at C-G-CB-S (not in order).

I remember my last period of being on the positive / supportive side of the purple bandwagon … Spiels had just had an epiphany in 2017 that OL were important (after our leg got ripped off in 2016) … we signed Reiff and Remmers and drafted Elflein. Good things happened, even with a back-up QB and anti-offense Zimmer. Which is what we need to start this free agency. That kind of attentionto the OL. Not that those players worked out past 2017 …

I rode the bandwagon well past the signing of Kirk. Then like Zimmer, I shriveled up and got tossed onto the toxic negative nelly curb.


Matters how long the contracts are.....they could actually sign a top DT, CB, and RG to 5 year contracts and backload one of the 3 and still be able to sign the low to middle tiers. They had barely 20 million last year. They have almost 60 now.

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 2/5/2025 1:39:02 PM >


_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 5678
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/5/2025 2:07:41 PM   
Jeff Jesser


Posts: 19625
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: offline
My guesses:


Murphy is back
Harry comes back at a discount/restructured
O;Neil restructured
Griffen back
Bradbury plays out his last year

FA:

Top right guard
lower tiered LG
Top tied CB
draft DT
draft RB (also bringing back Akers)
draft CB

I also think that KAM tries to move back for some 2nd/3rd day picks
Post #: 5679
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/5/2025 2:11:28 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 29588
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

https://www.minnesotasportsfan.com/minnesota-vikings/minnesota-vikings-news/vikings-are-really-happy-with-jj-mccarthy-according-to-new-report/



"...and now he’s not only up and running, but he’s also throwing the ball again."



“… and continuing to develop off the field.” Is that like wardrobe choices and personal hygiene?

Yeah he’s ready.

Forget the ‘40M One Year Drop In The Bucket’ Darnold.

Time to start focusing on cool TEs again.


Time to start grabbing every good guard and a strong, intelligent center, that we can find, regardless of cost.

Stop trading draft picks, period.

Absolutely. Not sure how to complete an IOL set AND secondary in one offseason … that would be remarkable … I can survive another year of ho-hum DL if major headway is made at C-G-CB-S (not in order).

I remember my last period of being on the positive / supportive side of the purple bandwagon … Spiels had just had an epiphany in 2017 that OL were important (after our leg got ripped off in 2016) … we signed Reiff and Remmers and drafted Elflein. Good things happened, even with a back-up QB and anti-offense Zimmer. Which is what we need to start this free agency. That kind of attentionto the OL. Not that those players worked out past 2017 …

I rode the bandwagon well past the signing of Kirk. Then like Zimmer, I shriveled up and got tossed onto the toxic negative nelly curb.



Yeah, I'd say there is a 0% probability of filling all or even a high majority of the needs, roster openings, and talent upgrades.

- FAs sometimes have preferred destinations.
- There are 31 other teams out there vying for certain FAs.
- There isn't enough cap space.
- Not all the FAs will pan out.

The general idea is to draft to build the core of the roster and use free agency to round it out. Several years ago the Rams were an exception - at least WRT using 1st round picks - but I don't know the construction of that entire roster.

Kwesi has whiffed on too many picks and bundled a lot of picks. The roster will soon be top heavy with high priced contracts. And even with void years and backloading you eventually reach a state of equilibrium. So there won't be enough cap to overcome the draft insufficiencies to build out the roster.

AND you have the Van Ginkles and Cashmans on two year deals. It's great they panned out but they are just a step above one-year rentals. Good luck trying to resign VG and the like on the cheap. So then because there are no draftees waiting in the wings you have to go sign FAs for more than the draftees cost. It's perpetual and eventually becomes too costly.

The entire draft/FA structure favors the use of the draft. That's at the heart of the GMs job and Kwesi has failed.
Post #: 5680
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/5/2025 3:14:32 PM   
marty


Posts: 13274
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline
Just watched this interview with JJ McCarthy on the Rich Eisen show, I can't believe how much he sounds like KOC:

https://youtu.be/eWSVpkE43yA?si=A4mmYKKzrY0zg--B

Did McCarthy always sound this way, or has he just taken on KOC's persona ? Does McCarthy take on the persona of every head coach he has had, did he used to sound like Harbaugh when being interviewed?

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!
Post #: 5681
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/5/2025 4:39:42 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5978
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

https://www.minnesotasportsfan.com/minnesota-vikings/minnesota-vikings-news/vikings-are-really-happy-with-jj-mccarthy-according-to-new-report/



"...and now he’s not only up and running, but he’s also throwing the ball again."



“… and continuing to develop off the field.” Is that like wardrobe choices and personal hygiene?

Yeah he’s ready.

Forget the ‘40M One Year Drop In The Bucket’ Darnold.

Time to start focusing on cool TEs again.


Time to start grabbing every good guard and a strong, intelligent center, that we can find, regardless of cost.

Stop trading draft picks, period.

Absolutely. Not sure how to complete an IOL set AND secondary in one offseason … that would be remarkable … I can survive another year of ho-hum DL if major headway is made at C-G-CB-S (not in order).

I remember my last period of being on the positive / supportive side of the purple bandwagon … Spiels had just had an epiphany in 2017 that OL were important (after our leg got ripped off in 2016) … we signed Reiff and Remmers and drafted Elflein. Good things happened, even with a back-up QB and anti-offense Zimmer. Which is what we need to start this free agency. That kind of attentionto the OL. Not that those players worked out past 2017 …

I rode the bandwagon well past the signing of Kirk. Then like Zimmer, I shriveled up and got tossed onto the toxic negative nelly curb.



Yeah, I'd say there is a 0% probability of filling all or even a high majority of the needs, roster openings, and talent upgrades.

- FAs sometimes have preferred destinations.
- There are 31 other teams out there vying for certain FAs.
- There isn't enough cap space.
- Not all the FAs will pan out.

The general idea is to draft to build the core of the roster and use free agency to round it out. Several years ago the Rams were an exception - at least WRT using 1st round picks - but I don't know the construction of that entire roster.

Kwesi has whiffed on too many picks and bundled a lot of picks. The roster will soon be top heavy with high priced contracts. And even with void years and backloading you eventually reach a state of equilibrium. So there won't be enough cap to overcome the draft insufficiencies to build out the roster.

AND you have the Van Ginkles and Cashmans on two year deals. It's great they panned out but they are just a step above one-year rentals. Good luck trying to resign VG and the like on the cheap. So then because there are no draftees waiting in the wings you have to go sign FAs for more than the draftees cost. It's perpetual and eventually becomes too costly.

The entire draft/FA structure favors the use of the draft. That's at the heart of the GMs job and Kwesi has failed.

Good post. Add 40M one year QB rentals to the temptations of bad GMing.

Anything can happen year to year but without a supply of decent young cheap prospects, from core plays through rotational guys to simple depth ... your window isn't going to be very big.

Will be interesting to see if Kwesi can score again in FA like last year. Nothing is guaranteed.
Post #: 5682
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/5/2025 10:24:35 PM   
Pager


Posts: 10570
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

https://www.minnesotasportsfan.com/minnesota-vikings/minnesota-vikings-news/vikings-are-really-happy-with-jj-mccarthy-according-to-new-report/



"...and now he’s not only up and running, but he’s also throwing the ball again."



“… and continuing to develop off the field.” Is that like wardrobe choices and personal hygiene?

Yeah he’s ready.

Forget the ‘40M One Year Drop In The Bucket’ Darnold.

Time to start focusing on cool TEs again.


Time to start grabbing every good guard and a strong, intelligent center, that we can find, regardless of cost.

Stop trading draft picks, period.

Absolutely. Not sure how to complete an IOL set AND secondary in one offseason … that would be remarkable … I can survive another year of ho-hum DL if major headway is made at C-G-CB-S (not in order).

I remember my last period of being on the positive / supportive side of the purple bandwagon … Spiels had just had an epiphany in 2017 that OL were important (after our leg got ripped off in 2016) … we signed Reiff and Remmers and drafted Elflein. Good things happened, even with a back-up QB and anti-offense Zimmer. Which is what we need to start this free agency. That kind of attentionto the OL. Not that those players worked out past 2017 …

I rode the bandwagon well past the signing of Kirk. Then like Zimmer, I shriveled up and got tossed onto the toxic negative nelly curb.



Yeah, I'd say there is a 0% probability of filling all or even a high majority of the needs, roster openings, and talent upgrades.

- FAs sometimes have preferred destinations.
- There are 31 other teams out there vying for certain FAs.
- There isn't enough cap space.
- Not all the FAs will pan out.

The general idea is to draft to build the core of the roster and use free agency to round it out. Several years ago the Rams were an exception - at least WRT using 1st round picks - but I don't know the construction of that entire roster.

Kwesi has whiffed on too many picks and bundled a lot of picks. The roster will soon be top heavy with high priced contracts. And even with void years and backloading you eventually reach a state of equilibrium. So there won't be enough cap to overcome the draft insufficiencies to build out the roster.

AND you have the Van Ginkles and Cashmans on two year deals. It's great they panned out but they are just a step above one-year rentals. Good luck trying to resign VG and the like on the cheap. So then because there are no draftees waiting in the wings you have to go sign FAs for more than the draftees cost. It's perpetual and eventually becomes too costly.

The entire draft/FA structure favors the use of the draft. That's at the heart of the GMs job and Kwesi has failed.



Dallas Tuner was drafted as the off-ball OLB behind AVG. Hopefully he pushes for more time next year and is then able to replace AVG when the contract is up.

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.
Post #: 5683
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 7:50:08 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 28596
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
The Daily Norseman
@DailyNorseman
·
6m
The Minnesota #Vikings have finally lost a member of their coaching staff to a promotion from another team, as assistant QB coach Grant Udinski is moving on to Duval to become the offensive coordinator for the Jacksonville Jaguars. #NFL #Skol

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 5684
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 8:16:10 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 29588
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

https://www.minnesotasportsfan.com/minnesota-vikings/minnesota-vikings-news/vikings-are-really-happy-with-jj-mccarthy-according-to-new-report/



"...and now he’s not only up and running, but he’s also throwing the ball again."



“… and continuing to develop off the field.” Is that like wardrobe choices and personal hygiene?

Yeah he’s ready.

Forget the ‘40M One Year Drop In The Bucket’ Darnold.

Time to start focusing on cool TEs again.


Time to start grabbing every good guard and a strong, intelligent center, that we can find, regardless of cost.

Stop trading draft picks, period.

Absolutely. Not sure how to complete an IOL set AND secondary in one offseason … that would be remarkable … I can survive another year of ho-hum DL if major headway is made at C-G-CB-S (not in order).

I remember my last period of being on the positive / supportive side of the purple bandwagon … Spiels had just had an epiphany in 2017 that OL were important (after our leg got ripped off in 2016) … we signed Reiff and Remmers and drafted Elflein. Good things happened, even with a back-up QB and anti-offense Zimmer. Which is what we need to start this free agency. That kind of attentionto the OL. Not that those players worked out past 2017 …

I rode the bandwagon well past the signing of Kirk. Then like Zimmer, I shriveled up and got tossed onto the toxic negative nelly curb.



Yeah, I'd say there is a 0% probability of filling all or even a high majority of the needs, roster openings, and talent upgrades.

- FAs sometimes have preferred destinations.
- There are 31 other teams out there vying for certain FAs.
- There isn't enough cap space.
- Not all the FAs will pan out.

The general idea is to draft to build the core of the roster and use free agency to round it out. Several years ago the Rams were an exception - at least WRT using 1st round picks - but I don't know the construction of that entire roster.

Kwesi has whiffed on too many picks and bundled a lot of picks. The roster will soon be top heavy with high priced contracts. And even with void years and backloading you eventually reach a state of equilibrium. So there won't be enough cap to overcome the draft insufficiencies to build out the roster.

AND you have the Van Ginkles and Cashmans on two year deals. It's great they panned out but they are just a step above one-year rentals. Good luck trying to resign VG and the like on the cheap. So then because there are no draftees waiting in the wings you have to go sign FAs for more than the draftees cost. It's perpetual and eventually becomes too costly.

The entire draft/FA structure favors the use of the draft. That's at the heart of the GMs job and Kwesi has failed.



Dallas Tuner was drafted as the off-ball OLB behind AVG. Hopefully he pushes for more time next year and is then able to replace AVG when the contract is up.


Yeah Van Gink was a poor example related to backups. There is Turner, but he's one of very few even potentially decent backups.

I don't agree Turner was drafted to replace Van Gink when his contract is up. Especially since prior to signing here he was a middling player.

And using two 2nds, a 3rd, a 4th, a 5th and whatever to get to #17 was too much. And that goes back to draft acumen, which is the premise.
Post #: 5685
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 8:39:10 AM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5978
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
Van Ginkle exceeded expectations and Turner, for what we gave up to get him, has underperformed.

Its way premature to call that, Turner may end up being a stud … but for now, Kwesi threw tremendous draft resources at a player backing up a two year rental. Not to mention the one year QB rental.

In essence, by doing well in FA, he has made his draft results look even worse. He’s actually getting more creative at this … evolving.

Kwesi’s genius so far is finding new ways to whiff in the draft. Decades from now, historians will look back and talk about The Draft Whiffer.

Now, its possible that the 2024 draft could completely reverse the trend and start a draft renaissance … God I hope so … and 2025 could turn into the most momentous 3 pick draft our civilization has ever encountered …

not holding my breath.
Post #: 5686
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 9:10:49 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 28596
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

Van Ginkle exceeded expectations and Turner, for what we gave up to get him, has underperformed.

Its way premature to call that, Turner may end up being a stud … but for now, Kwesi threw tremendous draft resources at a player backing up a two year rental. Not to mention the one year QB rental.

In essence, by doing well in FA, he has made his draft results look even worse. He’s actually getting more creative at this … evolving.

Kwesi’s genius so far is finding new ways to whiff in the draft. Decades from now, historians will look back and talk about The Draft Whiffer.

Now, its possible that the 2024 draft could completely reverse the trend and start a draft renaissance … God I hope so … and 2025 could turn into the most momentous 3 pick draft our civilization has ever encountered …

not holding my breath.


I think Van Ginkle, Cashman, and Greenard all exceeded expectations......but 2 out of the 3 are in the 28-30 year old range. Need some youth.

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 5687
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 9:21:08 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 29588
Status: offline
It wasn't what he gave up for Turner specifically but rather the cost of manufacturing the #17 pick.

And because the 2022 draft is a gaping void, it's feasible the best draft approach would have been to get MORE draft picks.

Few draft picks, continual use of credit cards... just seems like an uphill slog. JJM and Turner need to be home run picks, otherwise the KAM era needs to end.
Post #: 5688
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 9:31:36 AM   
TJSweens


Posts: 45248
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline
Kwesi has two short comings when drafting:

1. He doesn't have a real grasp of pick values when it comes to trades
2. He doesn't get much out of his picks

That's a fatal combination in a GM. As bad as Spielman was, he was at least very good with pick values.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 5689
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 9:32:00 AM   
marty


Posts: 13274
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline
JJ sounds SSSOOO much like KOC in this interview:

https://youtu.be/eWSVpkE43yA?si=A4mmYKKzrY0zg--B

If JJ doesn't pan out as a QB, I guess he could always do exactly what KOC did, and eventually become an NFL head coach.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!
Post #: 5690
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 10:14:49 AM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5978
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Kwesi has two short comings when drafting:

1. He doesn't have a real grasp of pick values when it comes to trades
2. He doesn't get much out of his picks

That's a fatal combination in a GM. As bad as Spielman was, he was at least very good with pick values.

Agree. Spielman came across as a dude that just liked to maneuver and deal. He was like The Collector (picks, not what he did with them), starting with his first pick as GM, doinking CLE to land Kalil and extra picks.

Kwesi comes across (to me) as a teenager with money in his pocket ... emptying his pocket is just fun!

Looking at our draft history, 2020 is so typical Spielman. He crisscrossed the draft with 15 picks (!), including Jefferson. (JJ, [Gladney], Cleveland, Dantzler, Wonnum, Osborn and Metellus). In 2021, his last draft for us, 11 picks including Darrisaw. (Bynum, Pat Jones ... not much else).

Spielman hit on some winners for sure but given the sheer volume he created, he just never found enough talent. At least he found bodies along with some keepers.

Kwesi?

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 2/6/2025 10:16:04 AM >
Post #: 5691
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 10:19:10 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 28596
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Kwesi has two short comings when drafting:

1. He doesn't have a real grasp of pick values when it comes to trades
2. He doesn't get much out of his picks

That's a fatal combination in a GM. As bad as Spielman was, he was at least very good with pick values.

Agree. Spielman came across as a dude that just liked to maneuver and deal. He was like The Collector (picks, not what he did with them), starting with his first pick as GM, doinking CLE to land Kalil and extra picks.

Kwesi comes across (to me) as a teenager with money in his pocket ... emptying his pocket is just fun!

Looking at our draft history, 2020 is so typical Spielman. He crisscrossed the draft with 15 picks (!), including Jefferson. (JJ, [Gladney], Cleveland, Dantzler, Wonnum, Osborn and Metellus). In 2021, his last draft for us, 11 picks including Darrisaw. (Bynum, Pat Jones ... not much else).

Spielman hit on some winners for sure but given the sheer volume he created, he just never found enough talent. At least he found bodies along with some keepers.

Kwesi?


I think Kwesi has been better with the cap demands while still being competitive and not tanking.....but eventually FA, UDFA won't be enough to fill the cupboard of necessary talent.

The main reason why I fear trading O'Neil or Addison....can he replace it with someone he drafts?

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 5692
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 10:46:00 AM   
David Levine


Posts: 78428
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
Is 'positional value' changing?
As the Vikings prepare for free agency, they have to consider a trend of interior linemen growing in value


By Matthew Coller

If history has proven anything in the NFL, it’s that the truths about the league one year can be different by the next season.

If you went back 365 days and asked 100 analysts whether teams should invest big cap dollars and draft capital on the interior offensive linemen and running back positions, you likely would have gotten at least 90 “no” votes. Yet here we are with the No. 1 and No. 3 highest paid left guards in terms of guaranteed dollars playing in the Super Bowl along with the highest paid center and second highest paid running back. Not to mention that the Philadelphia Eagles spent a 2021 second-round pick and 2022 second-round pick on interior O-line and the Chiefs spent a 2021 second-rounder on a center (and hit a home run on a fifth-round guard too).

We can’t always use the teams that reach the Super Bowl to prove points. If this were the Commanders and Bills, maybe the examples wouldn’t be quite as strong as the Chiefs and Eagles but the construction of the offensive lines and Philly’s investment in Saquon Barkley has to make us wonder if the analytically-driven way of thinking during the last decade about positional value needs to be reevaluated.

If you look across NFL salaries, it’s not hard to see which positions the league drive success. Quarterback, wide receiver, tackle, edge rusher. The highest total guarantee figure for QB is $231 million, receiver $110 million, tackle $88 million and edge rusher $122 million. Compare that to running back ($26 million), guard ($63 million), linebacker ($60 million) and safety ($45 million) and you can see that the gap is enormous between the have and have-not positions.

But last year in free agency we started to see some evidence of teams putting more value into the guard position. The Panthers signed Robert Hunt to a contract worth $20 million per year, Washington paid Sam Cosmi $18 million and the Rams went all-in with big deals for Kevin Doctson ($16 million) and Jonah Jackson ($17 million).

Teams may have begun to notice that the counterparts for these offensive guards were getting nastier by the day. Defensive tackles’ dollars have shot up within the last few season, peaking with KC’s Chris Jones getting $95 million guaranteed and the Raiders going all-in on Christian Wilkins at $85 million last offseason. Not to mention that mad scientists like KC defensive coordinator Steve Spagnolo and the Vikings’ Brian Flores are sending freakish blitzes that confuse even the best QBs and O-lines. The only counter is to have more talent up front.

What does this mean for the Vikings this offseason?

When it comes to the guard position, there appears to be a high chance that the top players are going to reach new heights in terms of per-year and guaranteed dollars. In particular, Chiefs pending free agent Trey Smith has a chance to become the highest paid interior lineman in the league if he hits the market. Players like Chicago’s Teven Jenkins and San Francisco’s Aaron Banks could go for much higher prices than we would have expected even two years ago.

When we look at the recent performances from guards around the league, the pay increase for top free agents appears justified. In 2017, there were 34 guards who received PFF grades higher than 70 and 47 guards who allowed fewer than 30 pressures. In 2024, only 21 guards topped 70 grades and 37 who gave up 30 pressures or less.

To put it in perspective: Vikings guard Alex Boone had a PFF grade of 73.5 in 2016, which ranked 36th and many considered him an unsuccessful signing. In 2024, 73.5 would have cracked the top 15 in pass pro and his 16 pressures allowed would have ranked in the top five.

The best of the best are still putting up great numbers, like Quinn Meinerz of Denver who had an 80.3 grade and only gave up 12 pressures but it appears the average guard is now getting pummeled whereas even a few years ago being middle-of-the-pack was more than sufficient.

Since the Vikings gave Boone a big contract, they have been using patchwork efforts at guard or draft picks. They selected Ezra Cleveland and Ed Ingram in the second round and both were out before the end of their rookie contracts. Fourth-rounder Dru Samia barely got through a few games. The patchwork attempts have usually meant either signing a lifelong backup like Tom Compton or Dakota Dozier or moving a tackle to guard, from Mike Remmers to Oli Udoh to Blake Brandel.

Those routes haven’t just failed the Vikings, they are failing for everyone. If we look at the top 15 guards by PFF pass blocking grade this year, 12 of them were either highly paid free agents or drafted in the first two rounds. Just outside the top 15 was Carolina’s Damien Lewis and Detroit’s Kevin Zeitler, two more that fall into that category and Trey Smith, the expected top FA this year.

The numbers don’t lie here: While there are still development stories on the interior of offensive lines around the league, those getting an edge are paying for it with capital. Unfortunately for the Vikings, they were barking up the right tree by taking several of them high in the past few years, but having those picks fail put them behind the eight ball in terms of solidifying the position.

That means that spending big inside is the only route to being better than average. Considering Kevin O’Connell’s offense requires downfield passing and the Vikings desperately need to improve their run game, the guard value only increases.

But does that mean they need to spend $25 million on a guard? Maybe not. If we look at the top offensive lines in the NFL by pass protection, something to notice is that they do not have extremely weak links. The Eagles worst starting guard in terms of pressures allowed gave up 27 and graded a 63.6. The Vikings, in comparison, had three linemen with a lower grade than that and Ed Ingram gave up 24 pressures in just 332 pass pro snaps. Some of those numbers are based on the QB and the time spent in the pocket but Eagles QB Jalen Hurts held onto the ball longer than any QB in the NFL.

The Vikings could aim to alleviate their weak links instead of trying to put $25 million into one player. That would mean getting two new guards who have a recent sample of quality pass protection i.e. Arizona’s Evan Brown (14th in pass pro grade) and Chicago’s Matt Pryor (5th).

The question about free agent guards is whether every quality player at the position is going to demand big money or if there will be deals to be had as the top guards end up getting enormous contracts. It would seem that it might be tough to get any under-the-radar players these days. Prior to free agency, there are 19 guards that are making more than $10 million per year that number appears likely to grow. But the Vikings are so deeply in need of improvement that they will have to get out the checkbook.

What about the running back position? Is the success of Barkley and Derrick Henry going to bump up the price for this year’s crop?...
Post #: 5693
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 11:43:39 AM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5978
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Kwesi has two short comings when drafting:

1. He doesn't have a real grasp of pick values when it comes to trades
2. He doesn't get much out of his picks

That's a fatal combination in a GM. As bad as Spielman was, he was at least very good with pick values.

Agree. Spielman came across as a dude that just liked to maneuver and deal. He was like The Collector (picks, not what he did with them), starting with his first pick as GM, doinking CLE to land Kalil and extra picks.

Kwesi comes across (to me) as a teenager with money in his pocket ... emptying his pocket is just fun!

Looking at our draft history, 2020 is so typical Spielman. He crisscrossed the draft with 15 picks (!), including Jefferson. (JJ, [Gladney], Cleveland, Dantzler, Wonnum, Osborn and Metellus). In 2021, his last draft for us, 11 picks including Darrisaw. (Bynum, Pat Jones ... not much else).

Spielman hit on some winners for sure but given the sheer volume he created, he just never found enough talent. At least he found bodies along with some keepers.

Kwesi?


I think Kwesi has been better with the cap demands while still being competitive and not tanking.....but eventually FA, UDFA won't be enough to fill the cupboard of necessary talent.

The main reason why I fear trading O'Neil or Addison....can he replace it with someone he drafts?

Kwesi walked into a gross situation left by Spielman. He's still squirming out of that ... and may not last long enough to get beyond it if he doesn't draft better. The buy now / pay later approach will only leave another mess for the next guy.

Our franchise is habitually self-defeating.

Kwesi's teams have put up two out of three great regular seasons and he's opened up cap space for now to make improvements ... if he can figure it out or hire someone to figure it, and build a real playoff contender (not to get into the playoffs but someone competitive in the playoffs)

... Who knows.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 2/6/2025 11:44:52 AM >
Post #: 5694
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 11:47:04 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 28596
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Kwesi has two short comings when drafting:

1. He doesn't have a real grasp of pick values when it comes to trades
2. He doesn't get much out of his picks

That's a fatal combination in a GM. As bad as Spielman was, he was at least very good with pick values.

Agree. Spielman came across as a dude that just liked to maneuver and deal. He was like The Collector (picks, not what he did with them), starting with his first pick as GM, doinking CLE to land Kalil and extra picks.

Kwesi comes across (to me) as a teenager with money in his pocket ... emptying his pocket is just fun!

Looking at our draft history, 2020 is so typical Spielman. He crisscrossed the draft with 15 picks (!), including Jefferson. (JJ, [Gladney], Cleveland, Dantzler, Wonnum, Osborn and Metellus). In 2021, his last draft for us, 11 picks including Darrisaw. (Bynum, Pat Jones ... not much else).

Spielman hit on some winners for sure but given the sheer volume he created, he just never found enough talent. At least he found bodies along with some keepers.

Kwesi?


I think Kwesi has been better with the cap demands while still being competitive and not tanking.....but eventually FA, UDFA won't be enough to fill the cupboard of necessary talent.

The main reason why I fear trading O'Neil or Addison....can he replace it with someone he drafts?

Kwesi walked into a gross situation left by Spielman. He's still squirming out of that ... and may not last long enough to get beyond it if he doesn't draft better. The buy now / pay later approach will only leave another mess for the next guy.

Our franchise is habitually self-defeating.

Kwesi's teams have put up two out of three great regular seasons and he's opened up cap space for now to make improvements ... if he can figure it out or hire someone to figure it, and build a real playoff contender (not to get into the playoffs but someone competitive in the playoffs)

... Who knows.


He really can't sign the older FAs can he? We have to get younger.

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 5695
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 1:23:44 PM   
Jeff Jesser


Posts: 19625
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: offline
Not sure getting older is even an option if he wanted to. On average we were the oldest team in the league last year...
Post #: 5696
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 1:31:29 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5978
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Not sure getting older is even an option if he wanted to. On average we were the oldest team in the league last year...

We can cement our status as numero uno in that category. So there's that.
Post #: 5697
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 10:42:53 PM   
Steve Lentz


Posts: 36246
Joined: 7/19/2007
From: Omaha
Status: offline
CONGRATULATIONS To JARED Allen being elected to the Pro Football Hall Of Fame. Much deserved!!!!!

_____________________________

" I believe empathy is the most essential quality of civilization"
Post #: 5698
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 11:12:47 PM   
Steve Lentz


Posts: 36246
Joined: 7/19/2007
From: Omaha
Status: offline
Congratulations to Coach Kevin O'Connell,
for being elected NFL Coach of the Year!!!

_____________________________

" I believe empathy is the most essential quality of civilization"
Post #: 5699
RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/6/2025 11:43:56 PM   
Mark Anderson

 

Posts: 12307
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

CONGRATULATIONS To JARED Allen being elected to the Pro Football Hall Of Fame. Much deserved!!!!!

Post #: 5700
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