quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

The reason we did well in 2023 was our pitching......the reason we collapsed in 2024 was our pitching....nothing to do with the hitting.

We knew going into 2023 we had a very good pitching staff and going into 2024 we knew it wasn't as good.....it ended up worse than average in 2024.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

The reason we did well in 2023 was our pitching......the reason we collapsed in 2024 was our pitching....nothing to do with the hitting.

We knew going into 2023 we had a very good pitching staff and going into 2024 we knew it wasn't as good.....it ended up worse than average in 2024.

During the collapse out team scored an average of less than 4 runs a game.

It had a lot to do with hitting.

Pitching contributed too. but you are ignoring how bad the bats were from Aug 17th on

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

The reason we did well in 2023 was our pitching......the reason we collapsed in 2024 was our pitching....nothing to do with the hitting.

We knew going into 2023 we had a very good pitching staff and going into 2024 we knew it wasn't as good.....it ended up worse than average in 2024.

During the collapse out team scored an average of less than 4 runs a game.

It had a lot to do with hitting.

Pitching contributed too. but you are ignoring how bad the bats were from Aug 17th on

If you look at the teams stats---no playoff team had worse pitching (21). 5-6 of them had worse hitting....

I would say it was the main reason. Also the main reason I didn't have faith we would get past the first round.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

The reason we did well in 2023 was our pitching......the reason we collapsed in 2024 was our pitching....nothing to do with the hitting.

We knew going into 2023 we had a very good pitching staff and going into 2024 we knew it wasn't as good.....it ended up worse than average in 2024.

During the collapse out team scored an average of less than 4 runs a game.

It had a lot to do with hitting.

Pitching contributed too. but you are ignoring how bad the bats were from Aug 17th on

If you look at the teams stats---no playoff team had worse pitching (21). 5-6 of them had worse hitting....

I would say it was the main reason. Also the main reason I didn't have faith we would get past the first round.

OK. I didn't say it had nothing to do with Pitching.

That was a major problem too. We had three rookies in our starting rotation for the entire stretch fun. Three. Our bullpen had exactly two reliable guy. Two. Four pitchers that you could somewhat rely on. They can't pitch every day. Our bullpen was the worst at allowing inherited runners to score by a WIDE MARGIN.

But YOU SAID it had nothing to do with Hitting. I beg to differ. These guys couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat from Aug 17 or so on.

It ALL contributed. Should there be some bloodletting in the pitching coach staff...probably. But we have a lineup of talented hitters that lost the ability to hit for a month and a half. They had a seasons long issue with plating runners that were in scoring position with less than two outs. The number of pop outs and strike outs in those situations is atrocious. To say it had NOTHING (your words) to do with hitting is misleading and inaccurate.

It puts more pressure on the pitchers when the lineups can't score them runs. During the epic collapse this team did nothing well. Defense, hitting, baserunning, and pitching were all awful.

It doesn't have to be one (pitching) or the other (hitting). It can be both.

...and it was...and more

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

The reason we did well in 2023 was our pitching......the reason we collapsed in 2024 was our pitching....nothing to do with the hitting.

We knew going into 2023 we had a very good pitching staff and going into 2024 we knew it wasn't as good.....it ended up worse than average in 2024.

During the collapse out team scored an average of less than 4 runs a game.

It had a lot to do with hitting.

Pitching contributed too. but you are ignoring how bad the bats were from Aug 17th on

If you look at the teams stats---no playoff team had worse pitching (21). 5-6 of them had worse hitting....

I would say it was the main reason. Also the main reason I didn't have faith we would get past the first round.

OK. I didn't say it had nothing to do with Pitching.

That was a major problem too. We had three rookies in our starting rotation for the entire stretch fun. Three. Our bullpen had exactly two reliable guy. Two. Four pitchers that you could somewhat rely on. They can't pitch every day. Our bullpen was the worst at allowing inherited runners to score by a WIDE MARGIN.

But YOU SAID it had nothing to do with Hitting. I beg to differ. These guys couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat from Aug 17 or so on.

It ALL contributed. Should there be some bloodletting in the pitching coach staff...probably. But we have a lineup of talented hitters that lost the ability to hit for a month and a half. They had a seasons long issue with plating runners that were in scoring position with less than two outs. The number of pop outs and strike outs in those situations is atrocious. To say it had NOTHING (your words) to do with hitting is misleading and inaccurate.

It puts more pressure on the pitchers when the lineups can't score them runs. During the epic collapse this team did nothing well. Defense, hitting, baserunning, and pitching were all awful.

It doesn't have to be one (pitching) or the other (hitting). It can be both.

...and it was...and more

Our hitting was similar to last year for final stats we just were red hot late (last year).
The key is always the pitching. That was the Falvey/Lavine fail for the year. You need at least 3 #2 pitchers and when Ryan got hurt and no trade deadline deals I knew we would be cooked eventually.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

The reason we did well in 2023 was our pitching......the reason we collapsed in 2024 was our pitching....nothing to do with the hitting.

We knew going into 2023 we had a very good pitching staff and going into 2024 we knew it wasn't as good.....it ended up worse than average in 2024.

During the collapse out team scored an average of less than 4 runs a game.

It had a lot to do with hitting.

Pitching contributed too. but you are ignoring how bad the bats were from Aug 17th on

If you look at the teams stats---no playoff team had worse pitching (21). 5-6 of them had worse hitting....

I would say it was the main reason. Also the main reason I didn't have faith we would get past the first round.

OK. I didn't say it had nothing to do with Pitching.

That was a major problem too. We had three rookies in our starting rotation for the entire stretch fun. Three. Our bullpen had exactly two reliable guy. Two. Four pitchers that you could somewhat rely on. They can't pitch every day. Our bullpen was the worst at allowing inherited runners to score by a WIDE MARGIN.

But YOU SAID it had nothing to do with Hitting. I beg to differ. These guys couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat from Aug 17 or so on.

It ALL contributed. Should there be some bloodletting in the pitching coach staff...probably. But we have a lineup of talented hitters that lost the ability to hit for a month and a half. They had a seasons long issue with plating runners that were in scoring position with less than two outs. The number of pop outs and strike outs in those situations is atrocious. To say it had NOTHING (your words) to do with hitting is misleading and inaccurate.

It puts more pressure on the pitchers when the lineups can't score them runs. During the epic collapse this team did nothing well. Defense, hitting, baserunning, and pitching were all awful.

It doesn't have to be one (pitching) or the other (hitting). It can be both.

...and it was...and more

Our hitting was similar to last year for final stats we just were red hot late (last year).
The key is always the pitching. That was the Falvey/Lavine fail for the year. You need at least 3 #2 pitchers and when Ryan got hurt and no trade deadline deals I knew we would be cooked eventually.

This is what I posted on August 12 BEFORE the collapse.

Boy oh boy. Doing a pennant run with 3/5 of your rotation rookies....

Sounds sustainable to me.


So I agree with you about the pitching. I just disagree with you about the hitting.

The end, season long stats mean nothing. We Hit well early this year, It's a big reason we were 17 games over .500 when the collapse began, and went ICE COLD down the stretch. injuries contributed to this just like it did to pitching, but still. In a reversal from 2023 when they got hot late in the year, in 2024 they just lost the ability to hit. Every other team knew that they'd be swinging for the fences etc. and pitched them accordingly. We need a hitting coach that can teach them how to adapt when they start pitching you differently. Our staff clearly couldn't do that. The collapse showed it. The regression of Julien showed it. Popkins and staff were let go because they failed at their jobs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Thad Levine is leaving.

I assume this is cost savings.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Thad Levine is leaving.

I assume this is cost savings.

Halfway there...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Thad Levine is leaving.

I assume this is cost savings.

Halfway there...

Promised something he didn't deliver was the 2nd.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

The reason we did well in 2023 was our pitching......the reason we collapsed in 2024 was our pitching....nothing to do with the hitting.

We knew going into 2023 we had a very good pitching staff and going into 2024 we knew it wasn't as good.....it ended up worse than average in 2024.

During the collapse out team scored an average of less than 4 runs a game.

It had a lot to do with hitting.

Pitching contributed too. but you are ignoring how bad the bats were from Aug 17th on

If you look at the teams stats---no playoff team had worse pitching (21). 5-6 of them had worse hitting....

I would say it was the main reason. Also the main reason I didn't have faith we would get past the first round.

OK. I didn't say it had nothing to do with Pitching.

That was a major problem too. We had three rookies in our starting rotation for the entire stretch fun. Three. Our bullpen had exactly two reliable guy. Two. Four pitchers that you could somewhat rely on. They can't pitch every day. Our bullpen was the worst at allowing inherited runners to score by a WIDE MARGIN.

But YOU SAID it had nothing to do with Hitting. I beg to differ. These guys couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat from Aug 17 or so on.

It ALL contributed. Should there be some bloodletting in the pitching coach staff...probably. But we have a lineup of talented hitters that lost the ability to hit for a month and a half. They had a seasons long issue with plating runners that were in scoring position with less than two outs. The number of pop outs and strike outs in those situations is atrocious. To say it had NOTHING (your words) to do with hitting is misleading and inaccurate.

It puts more pressure on the pitchers when the lineups can't score them runs. During the epic collapse this team did nothing well. Defense, hitting, baserunning, and pitching were all awful.

It doesn't have to be one (pitching) or the other (hitting). It can be both.

...and it was...and more

Our hitting was similar to last year for final stats we just were red hot late (last year).
The key is always the pitching. That was the Falvey/Lavine fail for the year. You need at least 3 #2 pitchers and when Ryan got hurt and no trade deadline deals I knew we would be cooked eventually.

This is what I posted on August 12 BEFORE the collapse.

Boy oh boy. Doing a pennant run with 3/5 of your rotation rookies....

Sounds sustainable to me.


So I agree with you about the pitching. I just disagree with you about the hitting.

The end, season long stats mean nothing. We Hit well early this year, It's a big reason we were 17 games over .500 when the collapse began, and went ICE COLD down the stretch. injuries contributed to this just like it did to pitching, but still. In a reversal from 2023 when they got hot late in the year, in 2024 they just lost the ability to hit. Every other team knew that they'd be swinging for the fences etc. and pitched them accordingly. We need a hitting coach that can teach them how to adapt when they start pitching you differently. Our staff clearly couldn't do that. The collapse showed it. The regression of Julien showed it. Popkins and staff were let go because they failed at their jobs.

2023 Pre All Star Break OPS (22), AVG (25), HR (8), OBP (25).....2023 Post All Star Break OPS (3), OBP (4), AVG (7).

It had more to do with Wallner, Julien, Lewis, and Castro being hot as hell then the coaching....but you have to blame someone. Wallner, Julien, and Lewis had some sophomore slumps and teams adjusted....

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Thad Levine is leaving.

I assume this is cost savings.

Halfway there...

Promised something he didn't deliver was the 2nd.

I'm refering to Falvey as the other half.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

Here's a guy the Twins will probably pursue because he's clearly on a career trajectory towards the bottom of the barrell.

Longtime Nippon Professional Baseball star Tomoyuki Sugano is planning to sign with an MLB team this offseason, according to ESPN’s Jeff Passan. After 12 years in NPB, Sugano more than meets the requirements (nine years of NPB service) to qualify for international free agency, so he will not be subject to the rules of the posting system.

Sugano, soon to be 35, is an eight-time NPB All-Star, two-time Central League MVP, and two-time winner of the Eiji Sawamura Award, given out annually to the best starting pitcher in NPB. After collecting his second MVP trophy in 2020, he was posted for MLB clubs and drew interest from several teams, including the Giants, Mets, Red Sox, Padres, Blue Jays, and Rangers. However, he did not sign before the deadline, choosing instead to re-up with the Yomiuri Giants on a four-year, $40MM deal. His contract gave him the option to opt out after every season to pursue international opportunities, and following the first year of the deal, he he had enough NPB service time that he would not have been restricted by the posting system. Nevertheless, he decided to stay with the Giants throughout the length of the contract.

One reason Sugano may have decided not to pursue international free agency after the 2021, ’22, or ’23 seasons was his declining performance. He was outstanding in 2020, pitching to a 1.97 ERA with a 24.6% strikeout rate over 137.1 innings. However, he had ERAs of 3.19, 3.12, and 3.36 the following three years. His strikeout rates slowly declined, while his home run rates shot up. Moreover, injuries limited him to just 77.2 IP in 2023. His performance from 2021-23 wasn’t poor by any means, but it’s understandable why he chose not to sacrifice his guaranteed salary.

The 2024 season marked a return to dominance for the Sugano. Over 156.2 IP, he went 15-3 with a 1.67 ERA. His 18.3% strikeout rate was lower than it was at his peak – he struck out 24.2% of batters from 2016-20 – but he is finding success in new ways as an older pitcher. His 2.6% walk rate in 2024 was a career-best. His 6.94 strikeout-to-walk ratio was his best since 2016. In addition, he gave up only six home runs to the 608 batters he faced, 0.99% home run rate. That’s the lowest home run rate of his career, and significantly lower than his 2.91% home run rate from 2021-23. As a cherry on top, Sugano also threw three complete games this past season. He hadn’t thrown a single complete game since 2021.

Now that the four-year contract he signed during the 2020-21 offseason is up, Sugano has little reason not to give an MLB career another try. According to reporter Francys Romero, the veteran has hired VC Sports Group to represent him in free agency. The starting pitching market will feature plenty of big names this offseason, including Corbin Burnes, Yusei Kikuchi, Max Fried, Jack Flaherty, and likely Blake Snell, who has a player option for 2025. Considering his age, Sugano won’t be looking for a long-term contract, so he could represent an interesting alternative for a team that wants to add a potential top-flight starting pitcher on a shorter deal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

Here's a guy the Twins will probably pursue because he's clearly on a career trajectory towards the bottom of the barrell.

Longtime Nippon Professional Baseball star Tomoyuki Sugano is planning to sign with an MLB team this offseason, according to ESPN’s Jeff Passan. After 12 years in NPB, Sugano more than meets the requirements (nine years of NPB service) to qualify for international free agency, so he will not be subject to the rules of the posting system.

Sugano, soon to be 35, is an eight-time NPB All-Star, two-time Central League MVP, and two-time winner of the Eiji Sawamura Award, given out annually to the best starting pitcher in NPB. After collecting his second MVP trophy in 2020, he was posted for MLB clubs and drew interest from several teams, including the Giants, Mets, Red Sox, Padres, Blue Jays, and Rangers. However, he did not sign before the deadline, choosing instead to re-up with the Yomiuri Giants on a four-year, $40MM deal. His contract gave him the option to opt out after every season to pursue international opportunities, and following the first year of the deal, he he had enough NPB service time that he would not have been restricted by the posting system. Nevertheless, he decided to stay with the Giants throughout the length of the contract.

One reason Sugano may have decided not to pursue international free agency after the 2021, ’22, or ’23 seasons was his declining performance. He was outstanding in 2020, pitching to a 1.97 ERA with a 24.6% strikeout rate over 137.1 innings. However, he had ERAs of 3.19, 3.12, and 3.36 the following three years. His strikeout rates slowly declined, while his home run rates shot up. Moreover, injuries limited him to just 77.2 IP in 2023. His performance from 2021-23 wasn’t poor by any means, but it’s understandable why he chose not to sacrifice his guaranteed salary.

The 2024 season marked a return to dominance for the Sugano. Over 156.2 IP, he went 15-3 with a 1.67 ERA. His 18.3% strikeout rate was lower than it was at his peak – he struck out 24.2% of batters from 2016-20 – but he is finding success in new ways as an older pitcher. His 2.6% walk rate in 2024 was a career-best. His 6.94 strikeout-to-walk ratio was his best since 2016. In addition, he gave up only six home runs to the 608 batters he faced, 0.99% home run rate. That’s the lowest home run rate of his career, and significantly lower than his 2.91% home run rate from 2021-23. As a cherry on top, Sugano also threw three complete games this past season. He hadn’t thrown a single complete game since 2021.

Now that the four-year contract he signed during the 2020-21 offseason is up, Sugano has little reason not to give an MLB career another try. According to reporter Francys Romero, the veteran has hired VC Sports Group to represent him in free agency. The starting pitching market will feature plenty of big names this offseason, including Corbin Burnes, Yusei Kikuchi, Max Fried, Jack Flaherty, and likely Blake Snell, who has a player option for 2025. Considering his age, Sugano won’t be looking for a long-term contract, so he could represent an interesting alternative for a team that wants to add a potential top-flight starting pitcher on a shorter deal.

I'm intrigued.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Apparently Jax wants to try starting again. Logical to try it if they can fill his role.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Apparently Jax wants to try starting again. Logical to try it if they can fill his role.

He wasn't particularly successful when starting, he found a niche where is extremely successful.
why **** with that?
I don't think it is logical at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

RIP Luis Tiant, 83

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

RIP Luis Tiant, 83

He was a Twin. Acquired in a big trade. And then released after one season. He would then go on to many great seasons with the Red Sox.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

RIP Luis Tiant, 83

He was a Twin. Acquired in a big trade. And then released after one season. He would then go on to many great seasons with the Red Sox.

And the player we traded was perennial all star 3B Graig Nettles

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

RIP Luis Tiant, 83

He was a Twin. Acquired in a big trade. And then released after one season. He would then go on to many great seasons with the Red Sox.

And the player we traded was perennial all star 3B Graig Nettles

Nettles was blocking Castino.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

RIP Luis Tiant, 83

He was a Twin. Acquired in a big trade. And then released after one season. He would then go on to many great seasons with the Red Sox.

And the player we traded was perennial all star 3B Graig Nettles

Nettles was blocking Castino.

Yep. trading Nettles for Tiant in 1969 cleared the way for the Twins to bring up Castino 10 years later.