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RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/2/2009 9:27:27 AM

Elliot

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Joined: 7/28/2007
From: North Highland Beach, NJ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

I wasn't bashing the Wolves. I am saying that sitting out a year to reenter the draft is, in fact, a possibility for Rubio, and one that the Wolves should work hard (as it appears they are doing) to make sure it doesn't become a reality.

I think you have it much more negative for Rubio than it would be. If he sits out one year, all he is, is 19. That isn't going to piss too many other teams off, especially since the alternative is getting locked into Glen Taylor for 6 years. Other teams won't be upset about that in the slightest. He will have also signaled his intent to have clear control over where he goes, which means that the team that will risk a second draft on him will want to make sure he wants to play there.. i.e. he can dictate to some extent where he wants to go.

Is it a jerk move, like John Elway or Kobe Bryant pulled off? Yes. Is it way out of the realm of possibility? I don't think so. That's why Kahn is doing it the right way, even though most fans reactions, and a lot of team ownership, when this comes up is "screw him, he can't do this to us, we'll make his life hell."

Not sure where you're getting 6 years from, since the longest the Wolves could keep Rubio against his will would be 5 years. That said, it is technically possible for Rubio to sit out a year, but he would be cutting off his proverbial nose to spite his face. You're right: he would still only be 19. But he would have lost a year of development without playing at a competitive level and there would be increased uncertainty about his ability/willingness to play in the NBA. His buyout situation would not have changed and he still runs the risk of being drafted by a team like Memphis next year, who might decide to call his bluff and wait him out or hold him for ransome as a trading chip, the deal him to some other team that Rubio can't control. There are just too many bad things that could happen to him under that scenario. In the meantime, Fegan doesn't get a dime and runs the risk of getting fired.

In summary, technically it's possible. But IMO highly unlikely. I can't believe he'd do it. I think it would be incredibly foolish.

_____________________________

Life is just what happens to you,
While you're busy making other plans

~ John Lennon

Post #: 1351

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/2/2009 9:36:33 AM

Easy E

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quote:

But he would have lost a year of development without playing at a competitive level and there would be increased uncertainty about his ability/willingness to play in the NBA.

A year of development playing point guard next to a point guard? I don't think other teams would have increased uncertainty about it at all.

In fact, most teams think the Wolves were pretty stupid to draft the two real point guards. If they could, I bet almost every team in the league would advise Rubio to sit out, becauase they would jump at the chance to make him their point guard.

Look, I'm sure if Kahn talks about it again, he'll change my mind yet again, because the guy is smooth as silk.

But if I were Rubio, and the Wolves drafted me, I'd be a little put off. I'd look at their horrible record, bad ownership, and NO COACH!! and wonder if this is a real team or a mom and pop farce. Then I'd think about playing with Jefferson, and a fresh start, and they'd start talking big contract... and maybe I'd warm up.

Then they'd tell me "oh yeah, by the way, we drafted the only other real point guard in the draft with our other pick. We really feel this is the best way to put a winning team on the court. Don't worry at all, we still want you to run the point, it will work out. Flynn will be a mainstay for us, and his greatest skill is passing... but just trust us, we have a great track record in these kinds of things."

Frankly, if I were Rubio, sitting out a year is EXACTLY what I'd be thinking about. I don't see all that much downside.

And if another loser team wants to throw away a draft to try to screw with him... he really could just play in Europe. Teams would not eff with him, I don't think. A team that really wants him, and that he really wants to go to, would take him.

The Wolves need to work overtime to make sure he's happy and understands exactly what the long term plan is. And when I'm not listening to Kahn talk about them playing together... I really think it might be to have Johnny Flynn as the point and use Rubio as a trade chit. They need to work that carefully or it could blow up in their faces. Make the kid happy.

Post #: 1352

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/2/2009 9:40:55 AM

Elliot

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From: North Highland Beach, NJ
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It appears as though the only thing we are disputing is the liklihood that Rubio would sit out a year. You seem to think it's more than possible if not probably because there's little to no downside. I think it's virtually impossible that he'd resort to that.

_____________________________

Life is just what happens to you,
While you're busy making other plans

~ John Lennon

Post #: 1353

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/2/2009 9:41:30 AM

TJSweens

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I would put the chances of Rubio sitting out at less than 1%. If he sits out:
1. He makes no money.
2. He still would have the same 2 years of his current contract to buy out.
3. His stock likely goes down from not having played ball for a year and the onus of showing himself to be very immature.

On top of that the Wolves have given him no reason to loath playing here. Kahn has stated publicly that Rubio is the starting PG the day he shows up. I think this is a case where a couple people in the TrueHoops office threw around a couple of what ifs and decided to write an article. Kind of like when The Shooter tries to create his self fullfilling prophesies.

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Post #: 1354

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/2/2009 9:50:00 AM

Easy E

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I would put the chances of Rubio sitting out at less than 1%. If he sits out:
1. He makes no money.
2. He still would have the same 2 years of his current contract to buy out.
3. His stock likely goes down from not having played ball for a year and the onus of showing himself to be very immature.

On top of that the Wolves have given him no reason to loath playing here. Kahn has stated publicly that Rubio is the starting PG the day he shows up. I think this is a case where a couple people in the TrueHoops office threw around a couple of what ifs and decided to write an article. Kind of like when The Shooter tries to create his self fullfilling prophesies.

I agree. That's the way they need to keep it, is all I'm saying. I'm not saying Rubio is going to sit out. I think that it is a possibility if the Wolves don't handle it correctly, which so far, they are handling it well.

I do think it's very possible they trade him, which would piss me off. I buy some of the kool aid about them playing together, but stepping back, it really seems odd. Flynn is just.. a point guard. He's not an off guard, offensively, in the slightest. They can maybe make it work, but it will be unconventional, and the chance that the Wovles, of all clubs, pull it off successfully?

But no, despite saying how I could see him contemplating it, I don't think it's "probably" that he sits out at all. I just wouldn't take a cavalier approach to it in that there's no way he can do it. He could, if they don't handle it right.

My guess is the news outlets are dismissing the idea that the Wolves will be able to handle this well. Which, considering the track record, it's hard to blame them.

< Message edited by Easy E -- 7/2/2009 9:52:51 AM >

Post #: 1355

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/2/2009 11:12:39 AM

El Duderino

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

2. He still would have the same 2 years of his current contract to buy out.

This is why he will definitely NOT sit out. If he sits out, he has to come up with the $8 million. He can at least break even if he plays for the Wolves. If he sits, he's still on the hook, but with little or no income. No, he's playing this year. Maybe in Spain, maybe in the US. But I'll eat my hat if he sits out.

_____________________________

The Dude Abides

Post #: 1356

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/2/2009 11:23:59 AM

Easy E

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quote:

ORIGINAL: El Duderino

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

2. He still would have the same 2 years of his current contract to buy out.

This is why he will definitely NOT sit out. If he sits out, he has to come up with the $8 million. He can at least break even if he plays for the Wolves. If he sits, he's still on the hook, but with little or no income. No, he's playing this year. Maybe in Spain, maybe in the US. But I'll eat my hat if he sits out.

Unless he's successful in his lawsuit. It does seem wierd that they're paying him a couple hundred tho but he needs to come up with multi millions.

quote:

He can at least break even if he plays for the Wolves.

That's pretty tempting. Or maybe sit out a year while your lawyers try to break up the contract? I mean, being sold to the IRS as an assett for a company to pay off it's tax debt seems pretty damn shady. And wrong.

Could a US company give it's employees to the IRS?

Post #: 1357

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/2/2009 9:13:01 PM

Bruce Johnson

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Sitting out a year would only push back his time until he can get past that rookie contract and make the big money. There's no precedent for that.

Next year's a better year for the draft. He will slide and make considerably less money. No! That won't happen. Indeed, he will play for the Wolves this year!

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?

Post #: 1358

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 12:14:18 AM

Easy E

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Sitting out a year would only push back his time until he can get past that rookie contract and make the big money. There's no precedent for that.

Next year's a better year for the draft. He will slide and make considerably less money. No! That won't happen. Indeed, he will play for the Wolves this year!

The only reason he slid this year is because of his contract situation. Other teams were wary. If he did not have the contract situation, he would have gone #2.

Post #: 1359

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 12:50:20 AM

Guest

Maybe I'm way off, but is it not possible that Kahn knows exactly what Rubio wants to do? Is it not possible that that he (Kahn) knows what he is doing? Do we even know if they spoke pre draft?

Personally, I believe that the Wolves drafted Flynn, knowing that Rubio wasn't going to play for us next season. It was a hedge. Flynn plays well (which he will), then we have options with Rubio and/or Flynn. Flynn underperforms, then we get Rubio a year more matured.

I like the way it's setting up for Flynn. Mark it down, he's a slightly smaller Zeke.

I'm excited about the upcoming season. Miller and Foye were about the least physical you could be, and still be in the NBA. That was addition by subtraction.

Wasn't a Love fan coming out of UCLA, but I have been nothing but impressed. Hopefully Al rehabs nicely. A healthy Brewer makes us better defensively. And Flynn is tough. This team needs tough.

Of course they still need a coach, and I'm not certain Levine or Lentz can handle the pay cut.

Post #: 1360

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 5:51:42 AM

Elliot

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From: North Highland Beach, NJ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Sitting out a year would only push back his time until he can get past that rookie contract and make the big money. There's no precedent for that.

Next year's a better year for the draft. He will slide and make considerably less money. No! That won't happen. Indeed, he will play for the Wolves this year!

The only reason he slid this year is because of his contract situation. Other teams were wary. If he did not have the contract situation, he would have gone #2.

I'm not sure how you conclude that. It was widely reported that Rubio didn't like Memphis, because they had Mayo (who needs the ball to be effective) and because the Grizzlies have a reputation of not handling Rubio's countrymen well. OKC was afraid of lockerroom turmoil after Westbrook made public comments about not wanting to play off the ball. Rubio's visit to Sacramento was underwhelming (he was reportedly ill when he arrived) and Evans had a very good work out.

Might his buyout situation played into the team's decdisions? Sure. Was it the only reason? I think not.

_____________________________

Life is just what happens to you,
While you're busy making other plans

~ John Lennon

Post #: 1361

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 5:59:24 AM

Elliot

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From: North Highland Beach, NJ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete C

Maybe I'm way off, but is it not possible that Kahn knows exactly what Rubio wants to do? Is it not possible that that he (Kahn) knows what he is doing? Do we even know if they spoke pre draft?

Personally, I believe that the Wolves drafted Flynn, knowing that Rubio wasn't going to play for us next season. It was a hedge. Flynn plays well (which he will), then we have options with Rubio and/or Flynn. Flynn underperforms, then we get Rubio a year more matured.

I like the way it's setting up for Flynn. Mark it down, he's a slightly smaller Zeke.

I'm excited about the upcoming season. Miller and Foye were about the least physical you could be, and still be in the NBA. That was addition by subtraction.

Wasn't a Love fan coming out of UCLA, but I have been nothing but impressed. Hopefully Al rehabs nicely. A healthy Brewer makes us better defensively. And Flynn is tough. This team needs tough.

Of course they still need a coach, and I'm not certain Levine or Lentz can handle the pay cut.

I've admittedly been nipping at the Kool-aid here, but I think our collective expectations have been set so low, that we no longer expect this front office to make intelligent decisions or apply innovative thinking.

Personally, I think Kahn probably wanted Rubio all along. It was the team's greatest position of need and at the same time would provide the single biggest possible boost to excitement for the fan base. And I think he was being honest in stating that until late in the day of the draft, he didn't think there was a possibility that Rubio would be available at #5.

That said, I know that you and I were big Flynn supporters. My preference would have been for Curry, but a close second was Flynn. You happen to see a lot of Zeke in him. I see a lot of KJ.

_____________________________

Life is just what happens to you,
While you're busy making other plans

~ John Lennon

Post #: 1362

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 9:20:05 AM

TJSweens

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Joined: 7/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Sitting out a year would only push back his time until he can get past that rookie contract and make the big money. There's no precedent for that.

Next year's a better year for the draft. He will slide and make considerably less money. No! That won't happen. Indeed, he will play for the Wolves this year!

The only reason he slid this year is because of his contract situation. Other teams were wary. If he did not have the contract situation, he would have gone #2.

If he were to sit out a year and re-enter the draft he would still have the exact same contract situation and he would be competing with a deeper draft. Given that the most current scouting data on him would be over a year old, he would likely drop much further than #5 next year.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1363

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 9:52:50 AM

Jim Frenette

Posts: 15995
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Dundas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Sitting out a year would only push back his time until he can get past that rookie contract and make the big money. There's no precedent for that.

Next year's a better year for the draft. He will slide and make considerably less money. No! That won't happen. Indeed, he will play for the Wolves this year!

The only reason he slid this year is because of his contract situation. Other teams were wary. If he did not have the contract situation, he would have gone #2.

If he were to sit out a year and re-enter the draft he would still have the exact same contract situation and he would be competing with a deeper draft. Given that the most current scouting data on him would be over a year old, he would likely drop much further than #5 next year.

Plus teams wouldn't be able to see if he had improved since he wouldn't have any current tape on him. He might even drop out of the lottery

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Fargo

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RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 9:57:09 AM

kgdabom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete C

Maybe I'm way off, but is it not possible that Kahn knows exactly what Rubio wants to do? Is it not possible that that he (Kahn) knows what he is doing? Do we even know if they spoke pre draft?

Personally, I believe that the Wolves drafted Flynn, knowing that Rubio wasn't going to play for us next season. It was a hedge. Flynn plays well (which he will), then we have options with Rubio and/or Flynn. Flynn underperforms, then we get Rubio a year more matured.

I like the way it's setting up for Flynn. Mark it down, he's a slightly smaller Zeke.

I'm excited about the upcoming season. Miller and Foye were about the least physical you could be, and still be in the NBA. That was addition by subtraction.

Wasn't a Love fan coming out of UCLA, but I have been nothing but impressed. Hopefully Al rehabs nicely. A healthy Brewer makes us better defensively. And Flynn is tough. This team needs tough.

Of course they still need a coach, and I'm not certain Levine or Lentz can handle the pay cut.

Shorter not smaller. Flynn goes just around 200 pounds. That is actually a pretty large PG.

Post #: 1365

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 1:39:23 PM

Ryan Taylor

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Doesn't anyone think that the reports of his playing out his final two years in Spain might just be so he does not have to pay the buy out?

He earn's his $97,000 per year and he does not have to resign with them. He frees himself from any buy out situation and forces the team to reconsider the buy out amount as they are in desperate need for $'s right now.

Having Ricky play out his contract does little for them in regards to helping their need for dollars.

Just a thought.

Ryan "Son of Don" Taylor

< Message edited by Ryan Taylor -- 7/3/2009 1:41:50 PM >

Post #: 1366

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 2:02:21 PM

David Levine

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From: Las Vegas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryan Taylor

Doesn't anyone think that the reports of his playing out his final two years in Spain might just be so he does not have to pay the buy out?

He earn's his $97,000 per year and he does not have to resign with them. He frees himself from any buy out situation and forces the team to reconsider the buy out amount as they are in desperate need for $'s right now.

Having Ricky play out his contract does little for them in regards to helping their need for dollars.

Just a thought.

Ryan "Son of Don" Taylor

We've been discussing exactly that on the General Wolves thread.

Post #: 1367

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 2:14:03 PM

Ryan Taylor

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Thanx DL.....Late arrival...

Ryan "Son of Don" Taylor

Post #: 1368

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 3:26:35 PM

Easy E

Posts: 10871
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Sitting out a year would only push back his time until he can get past that rookie contract and make the big money. There's no precedent for that.

Next year's a better year for the draft. He will slide and make considerably less money. No! That won't happen. Indeed, he will play for the Wolves this year!

The only reason he slid this year is because of his contract situation. Other teams were wary. If he did not have the contract situation, he would have gone #2.

If he were to sit out a year and re-enter the draft he would still have the exact same contract situation and he would be competing with a deeper draft. Given that the most current scouting data on him would be over a year old, he would likely drop much further than #5 next year.

Unless he plays better at 18-19 than he did at 17-18. Then he'd likely rise, wouldn't he?

Sorry, I had moved on to him saying he'll play in Europe this year.

He would not drop out of the lottery if he sits a year, though.

< Message edited by Easy E -- 7/3/2009 3:48:38 PM >

Post #: 1369

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 3:34:33 PM

Elliot

Posts: 3589
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: North Highland Beach, NJ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Sitting out a year would only push back his time until he can get past that rookie contract and make the big money. There's no precedent for that.

Next year's a better year for the draft. He will slide and make considerably less money. No! That won't happen. Indeed, he will play for the Wolves this year!

The only reason he slid this year is because of his contract situation. Other teams were wary. If he did not have the contract situation, he would have gone #2.

If he were to sit out a year and re-enter the draft he would still have the exact same contract situation and he would be competing with a deeper draft. Given that the most current scouting data on him would be over a year old, he would likely drop much further than #5 next year.

Unless he plays better at 18-19 than he did at 17-18. Then he'd likely rise, wouldn't he?

He's 18 now. And he'd be sitting out a year and not playing (competitively) while he's 18-19.

_____________________________

Life is just what happens to you,
While you're busy making other plans

~ John Lennon

Post #: 1370

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 3:49:11 PM

Brad Norman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elliot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Sitting out a year would only push back his time until he can get past that rookie contract and make the big money. There's no precedent for that.

Next year's a better year for the draft. He will slide and make considerably less money. No! That won't happen. Indeed, he will play for the Wolves this year!

The only reason he slid this year is because of his contract situation. Other teams were wary. If he did not have the contract situation, he would have gone #2.

If he were to sit out a year and re-enter the draft he would still have the exact same contract situation and he would be competing with a deeper draft. Given that the most current scouting data on him would be over a year old, he would likely drop much further than #5 next year.

Unless he plays better at 18-19 than he did at 17-18. Then he'd likely rise, wouldn't he?

He's 18 now. And he'd be sitting out a year and not playing (competitively) while he's 18-19.

Yep. He might be better at 19 than 18, but it would be hard to prove without playing competitively.

Post #: 1371

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 5:18:50 PM

Easy E

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You guys are right, no one will want him. He's so screwed.

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RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 5:40:02 PM

Brad Norman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

You guys are right, no one will want him. He's so screwed.

You always use hyperbole, exaggeration, overstatement, and misrepresentation after you lose an argument.

Post #: 1373

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 7:16:10 PM

TJSweens

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Norman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

You guys are right, no one will want him. He's so screwed.

You always use hyperbole, exaggeration, overstatement, and misrepresentation after you lose an argument.

That's not true he often uses all of that while in the process of losing an argument as well.

< Message edited by TJSweens -- 7/3/2009 8:20:12 PM >

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"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1374

RE: Trade Rubio? Better be good - 7/3/2009 8:16:00 PM

Bruce Johnson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Sitting out a year would only push back his time until he can get past that rookie contract and make the big money. There's no precedent for that.

Next year's a better year for the draft. He will slide and make considerably less money. No! That won't happen. Indeed, he will play for the Wolves this year!

The only reason he slid this year is because of his contract situation. Other teams were wary. If he did not have the contract situation, he would have gone #2.

Wasn't it also that he didn't want to play in certain cities, as well. Wasn't that part of why he wasn't selected in Oklahoma City or Memphis? If he doesn't play at all for one year, plus he has this baggage of being selective where he wants to play, isn't it conceiveable that he should slide. Also, again, this draft was supposedly weak at the top. Clearly, there's more of a chance that he could slide than that he could be selected higher.

edit: Sorry, looks like I'm just echoing what has already been expressed and more eloquently, as well.

< Message edited by Bruce Johnson -- 7/3/2009 8:23:11 PM >

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?

Post #: 1375