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RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/1/2011 10:13:19 AM   
Jim Frenette


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach

I don't know what you have seen that makes you feel that Rubio can't play. He certainly held his own against Rose. I consider Rose to be the best NBA point guard. If not the best, he is certainly up there. If your basing this on NY media story that Rubio isn't coming here until there is peace in the NBA well you may have somethng there. Unless the Players Association has a war chest to get them through 2015, we will not be watching much NBA ball anytime soon once the season is over.



I base it on actually watching Rubio play in his current league. Allstar/ International play is completely different then what you see night in/ night out on one's professional team. Rubio has actually lost minutes on his team for lack of production (5 pts 4 assists). Quite sure Rose playing with his Bull team would be a completely different animal for Rubio right now.

I wasn't sold on him when the hype machine was in full effect for a lack of athletism, and no outside shot. Now he is just a very poor man's version of Jason Kidd (Albeit weaker, and unable to beat anyone off the dribble as they don't have to respect his outside shot).

I hope the kid turns it around, but right now I just don't see it with him.


I never was either Kurt. I guess he hasn't shown any improvement this year

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Post #: 76
RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/1/2011 10:21:37 AM   
Phil Riewer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Frenette

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach

I don't know what you have seen that makes you feel that Rubio can't play. He certainly held his own against Rose. I consider Rose to be the best NBA point guard. If not the best, he is certainly up there. If your basing this on NY media story that Rubio isn't coming here until there is peace in the NBA well you may have somethng there. Unless the Players Association has a war chest to get them through 2015, we will not be watching much NBA ball anytime soon once the season is over.



I base it on actually watching Rubio play in his current league. Allstar/ International play is completely different then what you see night in/ night out on one's professional team. Rubio has actually lost minutes on his team for lack of production (5 pts 4 assists). Quite sure Rose playing with his Bull team would be a completely different animal for Rubio right now.

I wasn't sold on him when the hype machine was in full effect for a lack of athletism, and no outside shot. Now he is just a very poor man's version of Jason Kidd (Albeit weaker, and unable to beat anyone off the dribble as they don't have to respect his outside shot).

I hope the kid turns it around, but right now I just don't see it with him.


I never was either Kurt. I guess he hasn't shown any improvement this year



Maybe the kid just needs a new challenge (I hope)...

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Post #: 77
RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/1/2011 10:34:44 AM   
JT2

 

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I just don't ever see Rubio as even an average starting PG in the NBA.  Instead of buying the hype, we should have been looking to sell when he had some value.

The young man has been playing competitive basketball for a long time and still hasn't learned to shoot.  This is a problem. 
Post #: 78
RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/1/2011 2:25:25 PM   
ruffenach

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

I just don't ever see Rubio as even an average starting PG in the NBA.  Instead of buying the hype, we should have been looking to sell when he had some value.

The young man has been playing competitive basketball for a long time and still hasn't learned to shoot.  This is a problem. 


The only real way to see if he can play is to get him over here and see if he can actually play.  I don't buy the notion that he can't shoot.  In Europe the point guards shooting are extremely restricted.  A European player has to be evaluted differently then Americans, because the game is so much difference there.  Rubio will never be more then the 5th shooter on this team.  His primary function here is to run the offense and spread the ball around and not to turn the ball over.  If he is even an average NBA point guard, he will be miles ahead of any point guard we have had in a long, long time.  The sad truth is that the best point guards were at the end of there career or like Billups fell out of favor with a poor coach. When he found a decent coach, his game improved dramiticly.  I expect Rubio's game would improved greatly under a good NBA coach.  If we keep Rambis, all bets are off. 
Post #: 79
RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/1/2011 2:55:13 PM   
kurt bilben


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

I just don't ever see Rubio as even an average starting PG in the NBA.  Instead of buying the hype, we should have been looking to sell when he had some value.

The young man has been playing competitive basketball for a long time and still hasn't learned to shoot.  This is a problem. 


The only real way to see if he can play is to get him over here and see if he can actually play.  I don't buy the notion that he can't shoot.  In Europe the point guards shooting are extremely restricted.  A European player has to be evaluted differently then Americans, because the game is so much difference there.  Rubio will never be more then the 5th shooter on this team.  His primary function here is to run the offense and spread the ball around and not to turn the ball over.  If he is even an average NBA point guard, he will be miles ahead of any point guard we have had in a long, long time.  The sad truth is that the best point guards were at the end of there career or like Billups fell out of favor with a poor coach. When he found a decent coach, his game improved dramiticly.  I expect Rubio's game would improved greatly under a good NBA coach.  If we keep Rambis, all bets are off. 



Pretty sad statement for the #5 overall pick in the NBA draft...

If it looks like a pig------ well he hasn't been able to hit the broad side of a barn consistently yet with his shot, but who know's? For years in Europe actually the outside shooting was considered better with the likes of Drazen Petrovic, Sarunas Marculonis, (even bigs like Arvydas Sabonis)and the whole Spanish team could light it up from distance. Rudy Fernandez's shooting has actually regressed in the NBA, as has Jose Calderon who were both considered very good shooters, certainly miles better shooters than Rubio.

Certainly not to late for Rubio, however the 5th overall pick on an unathletic, horrible shooting PG just didn't make sense especially when you follow it up with Flynn! MindBoggling!
Post #: 80
RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/1/2011 3:23:51 PM   
JT2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

I just don't ever see Rubio as even an average starting PG in the NBA.  Instead of buying the hype, we should have been looking to sell when he had some value.

The young man has been playing competitive basketball for a long time and still hasn't learned to shoot.  This is a problem. 


The only real way to see if he can play is to get him over here and see if he can actually play.  I don't buy the notion that he can't shoot.  In Europe the point guards shooting are extremely restricted.  A European player has to be evaluted differently then Americans, because the game is so much difference there.  Rubio will never be more then the 5th shooter on this team.  His primary function here is to run the offense and spread the ball around and not to turn the ball over.  If he is even an average NBA point guard, he will be miles ahead of any point guard we have had in a long, long time.  The sad truth is that the best point guards were at the end of there career or like Billups fell out of favor with a poor coach. When he found a decent coach, his game improved dramiticly.  I expect Rubio's game would improved greatly under a good NBA coach.  If we keep Rambis, all bets are off. 


You do realize that there are numerous PG's in the Euroleague that all shoot extremely better than Rubio?  Rubio's shooting does not compare favorably to almost any PG in the Euroleague. 

The guy is the worst shooter on his entire team, and it's not even close.  Rubio isn't particularly good at getting to the rim and finishing, and he is an absolute horrible perimeter shooter.  Right now he's not even above average as a Euro player, but you expect him to magically get better vs. much better and more athletic players? 

You bought the hype on him, as did many, but he's not an NBA quality starter.   I'd trade him for Corey Brewer, and I don't like Brewer.

< Message edited by JT2 -- 4/1/2011 3:24:56 PM >
Post #: 81
RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/1/2011 11:55:21 PM   
djskillz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

I just don't ever see Rubio as even an average starting PG in the NBA.  Instead of buying the hype, we should have been looking to sell when he had some value.

The young man has been playing competitive basketball for a long time and still hasn't learned to shoot.  This is a problem. 


Worth reposting. Kahn's an idiot.

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Post #: 82
RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/2/2011 10:19:58 AM   
Jim Frenette


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

I just don't ever see Rubio as even an average starting PG in the NBA.  Instead of buying the hype, we should have been looking to sell when he had some value.

The young man has been playing competitive basketball for a long time and still hasn't learned to shoot.  This is a problem. 


The only real way to see if he can play is to get him over here and see if he can actually play.  I don't buy the notion that he can't shoot.  In Europe the point guards shooting are extremely restricted.  A European player has to be evaluted differently then Americans, because the game is so much difference there.  Rubio will never be more then the 5th shooter on this team.  His primary function here is to run the offense and spread the ball around and not to turn the ball over.  If he is even an average NBA point guard, he will be miles ahead of any point guard we have had in a long, long time.  The sad truth is that the best point guards were at the end of there career or like Billups fell out of favor with a poor coach. When he found a decent coach, his game improved dramiticly.  I expect Rubio's game would improved greatly under a good NBA coach.  If we keep Rambis, all bets are off. 


I don't like that at all. I'm tired of seeing them continue to try and force it inside to Darko. If the wings can shoot, the middle will open up better for the big guys

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RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/2/2011 12:16:27 PM   
David Levine


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Darko needs to go back to Europe ASAP.

Hopefully our next coach won't cater to him, and he'll get all pouty and leave.
Post #: 84
RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/2/2011 1:26:26 PM   
Jim Frenette


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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Darko needs to go back to Europe ASAP.

Hopefully our next coach won't cater to him, and he'll get all pouty and leave.


Dave doesn't matter who is at center, they try and force it in there and once in, it doesn't come out. Randolph is becoming a black hole also

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RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/2/2011 1:37:20 PM   
Steve Lentz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Frenette

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Darko needs to go back to Europe ASAP.

Hopefully our next coach won't cater to him, and he'll get all pouty and leave.


Dave doesn't matter who is at center, they try and force it in there and once in, it doesn't come out. Randolph is becoming a black hole also


Agreed. Beasley and Flynn are two others that many times seem more concerned about getting their shots than passing to the open teammate.

< Message edited by Steve Lentz -- 4/2/2011 1:43:42 PM >


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Post #: 86
RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/2/2011 1:44:31 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Frenette

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Darko needs to go back to Europe ASAP.

Hopefully our next coach won't cater to him, and he'll get all pouty and leave.


Dave doesn't matter who is at center, they try and force it in there and once in, it doesn't come out. Randolph is becoming a black hole also


Right, but our next coach isn't likely to run the offense through the Center.

And the added bonus of that is if Darko isn't a major factor on offense he pouts - and then he's more likely to leave.
Post #: 87
RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/2/2011 5:19:00 PM   
ruffenach

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Frenette



I don't like that at all. I'm tired of seeing them continue to try and force it inside to Darko. If the wings can shoot, the middle will open up better for the big guys


I have no problem getting the ball to the big guy in the middle, as long as its not forcing it in and as long as its not to Darko.  I have no problem with Love, AR or Pek being the starter there.  Darko would be ok with limited minutes and a defensive role.  We need a shooting guard that can shoot.  I don't have a problem with Rubio's shooting limitations, as long as the other players can shoot consistently.  I believe he is an extremely good play maker.  Yeah, it would be nice if Rubio could shoot the lights out too.  We may need to add another point guard as well as a shooting guard, which should not be that big of a challenge with the draft pick(s) and a free agent.  A new coach would be a big help too. 
Post #: 88
RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/2/2011 8:37:53 PM   
Jeff Allen

 

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How'd that Martell Webster trade work out? Some here thought he'd be great
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RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/2/2011 8:38:20 PM   
Jeff Allen

 

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Who we looking at to draft this year? Kemba Walker?
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RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/2/2011 10:16:11 PM   
djskillz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Allen

Who we looking at to draft this year? Kemba Walker?


Basically whoever's going to end up sucking much more than what the obvious pick at that spot should be.

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RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/2/2011 10:56:20 PM   
JT2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffenach

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Frenette



I don't like that at all. I'm tired of seeing them continue to try and force it inside to Darko. If the wings can shoot, the middle will open up better for the big guys
 

I don't have a problem with Rubio's shooting limitations, as long as the other players can shoot consistently.  I believe he is an extremely good play maker.  Yeah, it would be nice if Rubio could shoot the lights out too. 

Hold up.  Up thread you made it quite clear that you don't think Rubio has shooting limitations.  Which is it?  You even went on to explain how Euro PG's are restricted in their shooting, with no basis in fact.

I don't want to upset the balance in here, and I'm not sure if it's kosher to even directly question another poster's stated words.  If it is, I have questions for you. 
Post #: 92
RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/2/2011 11:14:56 PM   
JT2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Allen

Who we looking at to draft this year? Kemba Walker?


That's funny and sad.

I'm a big fan of Walker.  He kept that team relevant all season, while the freshmen got their feet wet.  People thought he was a gunner.  People thought he couldn't pass.  People thought he wasn't a team guy.  I think he's the best college basketball player in the nation.  However, the Wolves better not go all Flynn on him.  Don't get me wrong, he'll be a better pro than Flynn, but he is not the answer for the Wolves.  So, you're probably on the money, we'll draft him. 
Post #: 93
RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/3/2011 10:29:06 AM   
Jim Frenette


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I want a Derrick Rose type PG. Doesn't have to be as good, but the type that can drive and shoot well from outside. I don't think Rubio is that. I remind myself that the same guy that drafted him also drafted Flynn and we see how well that worked out. Kahn doesn't know talent

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RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/3/2011 11:06:00 AM   
Steve Lentz


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I have no problem getting Walker with our 2nd pick.

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RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/3/2011 11:20:07 AM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Allen

How'd that Martell Webster trade work out? Some here thought he'd be great


He's exactly who he's always been - a very good spot up shooter that gets himself into trouble if he tries to do too much more. He's still young, but after 7000 NBA minutes, its incredibly rare for a player to transform himself into something else. He's an awful lot like the guy Kahn had just drafted an hour or so earlier...

Its another case of Kahn outsmarting himself. He saw that Webster had a handful of games where he played over 30 minutes and produced very nice numbers, so he assumed that the cause/effect was "play Martell 30+ minutes and he'll give you THAT production".

Sadly, the much more obvious answer was "occasionally Webster would play really well and in those games the coach left him in for 30+ minutes".
Post #: 96
RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/5/2011 2:20:54 AM   
JT2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Frenette

I want a Derrick Rose type PG. Doesn't have to be as good, but the type that can drive and shoot well from outside. I don't think Rubio is that. I remind myself that the same guy that drafted him also drafted Flynn and we see how well that worked out. Kahn doesn't know talent



Rose wasn't drafted with a good perimeter shot, in fact, that was a weakness.  It's really great to see a young wealthy man improve his game.
Even if you don't like Rose, it's very difficult to not appreciate how he has put in the work to live up to his potential.  Extremely talented, and works on his game?  Almost unheard of.  Rose is a beast, and he's not done getting better.
Post #: 97
RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/5/2011 2:46:50 AM   
JT2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Allen

How'd that Martell Webster trade work out? Some here thought he'd be great


He's exactly who he's always been - a very good spot up shooter that gets himself into trouble if he tries to do too much more. He's still young, but after 7000 NBA minutes, its incredibly rare for a player to transform himself into something else. He's an awful lot like the guy Kahn had just drafted an hour or so earlier...

Its another case of Kahn outsmarting himself. He saw that Webster had a handful of games where he played over 30 minutes and produced very nice numbers, so he assumed that the cause/effect was "play Martell 30+ minutes and he'll give you THAT production".

Sadly, the much more obvious answer was "occasionally Webster would play really well and in those games the coach left him in for 30+ minutes".



It's interesting to observe the attitude of Twins fans and Wolves fans.  Twins fans hate on their best player.  Wolves fans love Love, and they think way too highly of any new acquisition or draftee. 

Whether anybody wants to admit it or not, plenty of people were high on Darko.  Same with Flynn.  Oh no, we traded Mayo.  I think Randolph may fall in that same category.  Hope over reality.  And Rubio, I've said enough.

In my less than expert opinion, I see two keepers and one maybe on this entire squad.  Love and Ridnour, and hopefully Wes gets better.  I do think Beasley is extremely talented, but the last time he learned anything was at KState.  If we can't make him a more well rounded basketball player, why have him?  Our negatives, and I mean that literally, crush the few positives.  I admire the hell out of Love, mostly because of his ability to bring it every night, while playing on a shit team.

Obviously we have a coaching problem, and possibly a worse GM problem, but we still do not have enough good NBA players.  How many of our starters would start on an average NBA team? 
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RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/5/2011 7:34:44 AM   
Phil Riewer


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A great coach can somewhat overcome inexperience and roster issues....I still think both Kahn and Rambis will be given their third year in this supposed 2-3 year rebuild.

I see promise in Beasley, Wes, Pekovic, and Randolph. Love is the rock and whatever we can do to get Barnes/Williams/Walker/Irving will go a long ways in what kind of team we will be.

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Post #: 99
RE: 2011 NBA Draft - 4/5/2011 7:51:30 AM   
ruffenach

 

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Let me clarify my position on Rubio since that has been called into question. I believe that all the doubters on Rubio are influenced by the national media whose statements are as accurate as the average Joe after having 10 drinks. You may indeed be right about Rubio's shoot, contrary to the opinions of Rose, Kobie and Love , whose opinions I value more then yours. I assume that you are correct when you say Rubio can't buy a bucket. Who would evver challenge you. Rubio value is that of a play maker, who has the potential to be one of the best play makers. Saying that a player has the potential and actually achieving it are two different things. I assume from review of the posts that a discussion of this nature is beyound the scope of whats acceptable chat. I will confine my post to the level of JT2 and djskillz that Kahn is an idiot and fire Rambis. The lakers walk on water. The Wolves suck and always will. Isn't this fun.
Post #: 100
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