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RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter

 
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RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/11/2013 2:31:41 PM   
Dave E


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Joined: 8/1/2007
From: Minneapolis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

Unless you're a vegan, in which case I guess you can claim the moral high ground (if there is any), what's the difference between shooting a duck that is then eaten and buying ground beef in the store?

I'm not a hunter, personally, and if someone kills something just to kill it, but not to make good use of the animal, I look askance. But there's nothing superior about raising a cow with drugs and an unnatural diet only to be slaughtered. Just a different venue for the same thing, that's all.

Again, I'm not a hunter, just isn't my thing. Not about to look down on those who enjoy it responsibly, though.


I can understand his point.

Todd isn't talking about the killing for food - he's talking about "the enjoyment of mowing down life".

There is a difference between a farmer that raises livestock for the sole purpose of "creating food", vs someone that goes hunting for the sport of the hunt and the game is fortunately put to good use - but as an afterthought.

I think its fantastic that all the kills went to needy people. I really do think that's an amazing thing. But I doubt that is the reason most hunters go on these hunts. Its a byproduct.


Possibly, although most hunters I know also happen to be the most passionate conservationists I know. Small sample size (whee!), but I get the impresion that there is a large chunk of hunters who aren't just out there to shoot an animal wihtouth thinking more about the larger picture of what they're doing.

And in any event, I don't know that there really is a difference as compared to a Gold'n Plump raising chickens in lousy conditions. In fact, I'd say there's an argument that it's worse.
Post #: 26
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/11/2013 2:43:35 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 70975
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

Unless you're a vegan, in which case I guess you can claim the moral high ground (if there is any), what's the difference between shooting a duck that is then eaten and buying ground beef in the store?

I'm not a hunter, personally, and if someone kills something just to kill it, but not to make good use of the animal, I look askance. But there's nothing superior about raising a cow with drugs and an unnatural diet only to be slaughtered. Just a different venue for the same thing, that's all.

Again, I'm not a hunter, just isn't my thing. Not about to look down on those who enjoy it responsibly, though.


I can understand his point.

Todd isn't talking about the killing for food - he's talking about "the enjoyment of mowing down life".

There is a difference between a farmer that raises livestock for the sole purpose of "creating food", vs someone that goes hunting for the sport of the hunt and the game is fortunately put to good use - but as an afterthought.

I think its fantastic that all the kills went to needy people. I really do think that's an amazing thing. But I doubt that is the reason most hunters go on these hunts. Its a byproduct.


Possibly, although most hunters I know also happen to be the most passionate conservationists I know. Small sample size (whee!), but I get the impresion that there is a large chunk of hunters who aren't just out there to shoot an animal wihtouth thinking more about the larger picture of what they're doing.

And in any event, I don't know that there really is a difference as compared to a Gold'n Plump raising chickens in lousy conditions. In fact, I'd say there's an argument that it's worse.


"the enjoyment of mowing down life".
Post #: 27
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/11/2013 2:48:42 PM   
CPAMAN

 

Posts: 36324
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

Unless you're a vegan, in which case I guess you can claim the moral high ground (if there is any), what's the difference between shooting a duck that is then eaten and buying ground beef in the store?

I'm not a hunter, personally, and if someone kills something just to kill it, but not to make good use of the animal, I look askance. But there's nothing superior about raising a cow with drugs and an unnatural diet only to be slaughtered. Just a different venue for the same thing, that's all.

Again, I'm not a hunter, just isn't my thing. Not about to look down on those who enjoy it responsibly, though.


I can understand his point.

Todd isn't talking about the killing for food - he's talking about "the enjoyment of mowing down life".

There is a difference between a farmer that raises livestock for the sole purpose of "creating food", vs someone that goes hunting for the sport of the hunt and the game is fortunately put to good use - but as an afterthought.

I think its fantastic that all the kills went to needy people. I really do think that's an amazing thing. But I doubt that is the reason most hunters go on these hunts. Its a byproduct.


Good comments but it all seriousness, none of this hunting would be permitted if not for responsible donation of the birds to needy families for subsistence. I just spoke with the outfitter this afternoon and he indicated that the only resident hunters in Argentina who hunt are the wealthier landowners who hunt to feed some of their workers. Hunting in Argentina is generally not done for sport but as an alternative food source for those who are in need. Wanton waste of harvested game is condemned by 99 out of 100 hunters. Sure, there are always a few exceptions that lead to the preconceived notions that all hunters are killers. A perfect example of how 1% of the population can stereotype an entire group in a negative way.

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Post #: 28
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/11/2013 2:50:33 PM   
Dave E


Posts: 25479
Joined: 8/1/2007
From: Minneapolis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

Unless you're a vegan, in which case I guess you can claim the moral high ground (if there is any), what's the difference between shooting a duck that is then eaten and buying ground beef in the store?

I'm not a hunter, personally, and if someone kills something just to kill it, but not to make good use of the animal, I look askance. But there's nothing superior about raising a cow with drugs and an unnatural diet only to be slaughtered. Just a different venue for the same thing, that's all.

Again, I'm not a hunter, just isn't my thing. Not about to look down on those who enjoy it responsibly, though.


I can understand his point.

Todd isn't talking about the killing for food - he's talking about "the enjoyment of mowing down life".

There is a difference between a farmer that raises livestock for the sole purpose of "creating food", vs someone that goes hunting for the sport of the hunt and the game is fortunately put to good use - but as an afterthought.

I think its fantastic that all the kills went to needy people. I really do think that's an amazing thing. But I doubt that is the reason most hunters go on these hunts. Its a byproduct.


Possibly, although most hunters I know also happen to be the most passionate conservationists I know. Small sample size (whee!), but I get the impresion that there is a large chunk of hunters who aren't just out there to shoot an animal wihtouth thinking more about the larger picture of what they're doing.

And in any event, I don't know that there really is a difference as compared to a Gold'n Plump raising chickens in lousy conditions. In fact, I'd say there's an argument that it's worse.


"the enjoyment of mowing down life".


Point is -- even if that's an accurate description, which I'm not sure it is -- that it's not morally inferior to a company raising animals in miserable conditions, killing them "humanely," and making a buck.

Distinction without a difference.

< Message edited by Dave E -- 6/11/2013 2:51:43 PM >
Post #: 29
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/11/2013 2:51:20 PM   
Dave E


Posts: 25479
Joined: 8/1/2007
From: Minneapolis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN
Good comments but it all seriousness, none of this hunting would be permitted if not for responsible donation of the birds to needy families for subsistence. I just spoke with the outfitter this afternoon and he indicated that the only resident hunters in Argentina who hunt are the wealthier landowners who hunt to feed some of their workers. Hunting in Argentina is generally not done for sport but as an alternative food source for those who are in need. Wanton waste of harvested game is condemned by 99 out of 100 hunters. Sure, there are always a few exceptions that lead to the preconceived notions that all hunters are killers. A perfect example of how 1% of the population can stereotype an entire group in a negative way.


That has been my experience as well.
Post #: 30
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/11/2013 2:51:59 PM   
Todd G


Posts: 14173
Joined: 7/19/2007
From: Twin Cities
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

Unless you're a vegan, in which case I guess you can claim the moral high ground (if there is any), what's the difference between shooting a duck that is then eaten and buying ground beef in the store?

I'm not a hunter, personally, and if someone kills something just to kill it, but not to make good use of the animal, I look askance. But there's nothing superior about raising a cow with drugs and an unnatural diet only to be slaughtered. Just a different venue for the same thing, that's all.

Again, I'm not a hunter, just isn't my thing. Not about to look down on those who enjoy it responsibly, though.


I can understand his point.

Todd isn't talking about the killing for food - he's talking about "the enjoyment of mowing down life".

There is a difference between a farmer that raises livestock for the sole purpose of "creating food", vs someone that goes hunting for the sport of the hunt and the game is fortunately put to good use - but as an afterthought.

I think its fantastic that all the kills went to needy people. I really do think that's an amazing thing. But I doubt that is the reason most hunters go on these hunts. Its a byproduct.


Possibly, although most hunters I know also happen to be the most passionate conservationists I know. Small sample size (whee!), but I get the impresion that there is a large chunk of hunters who aren't just out there to shoot an animal wihtouth thinking more about the larger picture of what they're doing.

And in any event, I don't know that there really is a difference as compared to a Gold'n Plump raising chickens in lousy conditions. In fact, I'd say there's an argument that it's worse.


"the enjoyment of mowing down life".


Point is -- even if that's an accurate description, which I'm not sure it is -- that it's not morally inferior to a company raising animals in miserable conditions, killing them "humanely," and making a buck.

Distinction without a difference.


But McNuggets taste good.
Post #: 31
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/11/2013 2:52:48 PM   
Dave E


Posts: 25479
Joined: 8/1/2007
From: Minneapolis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd G

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

Unless you're a vegan, in which case I guess you can claim the moral high ground (if there is any), what's the difference between shooting a duck that is then eaten and buying ground beef in the store?

I'm not a hunter, personally, and if someone kills something just to kill it, but not to make good use of the animal, I look askance. But there's nothing superior about raising a cow with drugs and an unnatural diet only to be slaughtered. Just a different venue for the same thing, that's all.

Again, I'm not a hunter, just isn't my thing. Not about to look down on those who enjoy it responsibly, though.


I can understand his point.

Todd isn't talking about the killing for food - he's talking about "the enjoyment of mowing down life".

There is a difference between a farmer that raises livestock for the sole purpose of "creating food", vs someone that goes hunting for the sport of the hunt and the game is fortunately put to good use - but as an afterthought.

I think its fantastic that all the kills went to needy people. I really do think that's an amazing thing. But I doubt that is the reason most hunters go on these hunts. Its a byproduct.


Possibly, although most hunters I know also happen to be the most passionate conservationists I know. Small sample size (whee!), but I get the impresion that there is a large chunk of hunters who aren't just out there to shoot an animal wihtouth thinking more about the larger picture of what they're doing.

And in any event, I don't know that there really is a difference as compared to a Gold'n Plump raising chickens in lousy conditions. In fact, I'd say there's an argument that it's worse.


"the enjoyment of mowing down life".


Point is -- even if that's an accurate description, which I'm not sure it is -- that it's not morally inferior to a company raising animals in miserable conditions, killing them "humanely," and making a buck.

Distinction without a difference.


But McNuggets taste good.


Which is precisely why I eat them.
Post #: 32
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/11/2013 3:14:13 PM   
Todd M

 

Posts: 35873
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

The parakeets are a different story - they're even more insidious pests - they clip the head of grains like milo and wheat and create a catastrophic amount of waste. The farmers wanted them dead even more than the doves, but they considered them as we might rats - locals had no interest in eating them. That bothered me for a bit, until one of the field hands on a farm we hunted approached me to thank me for killing the birds. We had a significant language barrier, but I'm pretty sure he told me to bring more shells the next time.
Post #: 33
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/11/2013 4:09:07 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 70975
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd G

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

Unless you're a vegan, in which case I guess you can claim the moral high ground (if there is any), what's the difference between shooting a duck that is then eaten and buying ground beef in the store?

I'm not a hunter, personally, and if someone kills something just to kill it, but not to make good use of the animal, I look askance. But there's nothing superior about raising a cow with drugs and an unnatural diet only to be slaughtered. Just a different venue for the same thing, that's all.

Again, I'm not a hunter, just isn't my thing. Not about to look down on those who enjoy it responsibly, though.


I can understand his point.

Todd isn't talking about the killing for food - he's talking about "the enjoyment of mowing down life".

There is a difference between a farmer that raises livestock for the sole purpose of "creating food", vs someone that goes hunting for the sport of the hunt and the game is fortunately put to good use - but as an afterthought.

I think its fantastic that all the kills went to needy people. I really do think that's an amazing thing. But I doubt that is the reason most hunters go on these hunts. Its a byproduct.


Possibly, although most hunters I know also happen to be the most passionate conservationists I know. Small sample size (whee!), but I get the impresion that there is a large chunk of hunters who aren't just out there to shoot an animal wihtouth thinking more about the larger picture of what they're doing.

And in any event, I don't know that there really is a difference as compared to a Gold'n Plump raising chickens in lousy conditions. In fact, I'd say there's an argument that it's worse.


"the enjoyment of mowing down life".


Point is -- even if that's an accurate description, which I'm not sure it is -- that it's not morally inferior to a company raising animals in miserable conditions, killing them "humanely," and making a buck.

Distinction without a difference.


But McNuggets taste good.


They really don't.

And I love fast food.
Post #: 34
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/11/2013 4:19:29 PM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Corleone

Not sure what this adds to the conversation, but somehow I agree with both seemingly opposing viewpoints.  Or maybe I just found "<hawk patoo> I'm awesome" to be extremely funny. 

Also - "look askance"?  C'mon, man. 

This

Chuckled out loud.

I'm no activist, either way.

I try to look askance at most issues.

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Post #: 35
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/11/2013 4:21:10 PM   
Todd G


Posts: 14173
Joined: 7/19/2007
From: Twin Cities
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

They really don't.

And I love fast food.


Levine channeling his inner Trekgeekscott.
Post #: 36
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/11/2013 4:54:03 PM   
Pete M.


Posts: 11004
Joined: 7/31/2007
From: Mahtomedi, MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN
Good comments but it all seriousness, none of this hunting would be permitted if not for responsible donation of the birds to needy families for subsistence. I just spoke with the outfitter this afternoon and he indicated that the only resident hunters in Argentina who hunt are the wealthier landowners who hunt to feed some of their workers. Hunting in Argentina is generally not done for sport but as an alternative food source for those who are in need. Wanton waste of harvested game is condemned by 99 out of 100 hunters. Sure, there are always a few exceptions that lead to the preconceived notions that all hunters are killers. A perfect example of how 1% of the population can stereotype an entire group in a negative way.


That has been my experience as well.


My grandpa was one of the founders of the Minnesota Deer Hunters Association. (I'm not a hunter, by the way.) Yes, he loved hunting, and my mom grew up on venison up north in Grand Rapids. But the MDHA also does a TON of conservation work and its members are really passionate about responsible hunting. I'm proud to have that as part of my family's heritage.
Post #: 37
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/11/2013 7:51:58 PM   
bparlin


Posts: 5942
Joined: 12/18/2007
Status: offline
I'm not a hunter, but have family that is huge into it. I fish and keep some for eating with no remorse. I'm thankful for deer hunters. Can you imagine how crazy the deer population would be without hunters? If you've never hit a deer with your car, you won't understand.

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What is the freakin' point of signing Mauer or Morneau if you aren't going to spend anymore money to add the pieces needed around them in order to win?!
Post #: 38
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/11/2013 7:54:46 PM   
bparlin


Posts: 5942
Joined: 12/18/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete M.

Huh. And here I was expecting at least one or two stories involving public defecation.

You asked for it, and now I'm sure we will get it.


My hunting partner John sharted in his waders.


George Brett feels for him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PseNrUeSmXk

_____________________________

What is the freakin' point of signing Mauer or Morneau if you aren't going to spend anymore money to add the pieces needed around them in order to win?!
Post #: 39
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/11/2013 10:29:25 PM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline
We're beatin Panama and you can actually watch it!
Is that a good thing, guys?
We seem to be winning more. Can't be bad.

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Play like a Pirate.
Post #: 40
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/12/2013 1:13:24 AM   
Pete M.


Posts: 11004
Joined: 7/31/2007
From: Mahtomedi, MN
Status: offline
Matt, you'll be pleased to know I'm in an Amtrak train headed west and we just passed the Little Falls sign.
Post #: 41
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/12/2013 1:39:48 AM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline
Seattle-bound?
Bought my parents an Amtrak trip to Seattle awhile back... they loved it.
Left from St Cloud if I remember right.

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Post #: 42
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/12/2013 5:17:13 AM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline
Yikes!
Hang on Boyd ... some rough stuff going thru there right now the way it looks.

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Post #: 43
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/12/2013 5:22:11 AM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline
And you too, Ed!
We're in the middle of those two orange and red and yellow masses.

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Post #: 44
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/12/2013 5:35:37 AM   
Mr. Ed


Posts: 87711
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From: Minne-so-ta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

And you too, Ed!
We're in the middle of those two orange and red and yellow masses.

Doesn't look good for baseball tonight.

We had 3 straight days with nothing more than sprinkles. We're due.

_____________________________

Escape while you can!
Post #: 45
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/12/2013 8:48:33 AM   
Jeff Jesser


Posts: 17553
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: offline
Missed the conversation last night but:
Post #: 46
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/12/2013 8:51:20 AM   
Jeff Jesser


Posts: 17553
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

Unless you're a vegan, in which case I guess you can claim the moral high ground (if there is any), what's the difference between shooting a duck that is then eaten and buying ground beef in the store?

I'm not a hunter, personally, and if someone kills something just to kill it, but not to make good use of the animal, I look askance. But there's nothing superior about raising a cow with drugs and an unnatural diet only to be slaughtered. Just a different venue for the same thing, that's all.

Again, I'm not a hunter, just isn't my thing. Not about to look down on those who enjoy it responsibly, though.



Nope, they are full of shit too. It's just a byproduct of tofu instead of meat. They are the equivalent of "that girl is fat, God bless her" or "I'm not a racist, but"....

Basically, 99.9% of people are dishonest, the .1 is just drunk.
Post #: 47
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/12/2013 8:52:13 AM   
Jeff Jesser


Posts: 17553
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

Unless you're a vegan, in which case I guess you can claim the moral high ground (if there is any), what's the difference between shooting a duck that is then eaten and buying ground beef in the store?

I'm not a hunter, personally, and if someone kills something just to kill it, but not to make good use of the animal, I look askance. But there's nothing superior about raising a cow with drugs and an unnatural diet only to be slaughtered. Just a different venue for the same thing, that's all.

Again, I'm not a hunter, just isn't my thing. Not about to look down on those who enjoy it responsibly, though.


I can understand his point.

Todd isn't talking about the killing for food - he's talking about "the enjoyment of mowing down life".

There is a difference between a farmer that raises livestock for the sole purpose of "creating food", vs someone that goes hunting for the sport of the hunt and the game is fortunately put to good use - but as an afterthought.

I think its fantastic that all the kills went to needy people. I really do think that's an amazing thing. But I doubt that is the reason most hunters go on these hunts. Its a byproduct.


Possibly, although most hunters I know also happen to be the most passionate conservationists I know. Small sample size (whee!), but I get the impresion that there is a large chunk of hunters who aren't just out there to shoot an animal wihtouth thinking more about the larger picture of what they're doing.

And in any event, I don't know that there really is a difference as compared to a Gold'n Plump raising chickens in lousy conditions. In fact, I'd say there's an argument that it's worse.


"the enjoyment of mowing down life".


Point is -- even if that's an accurate description, which I'm not sure it is -- that it's not morally inferior to a company raising animals in miserable conditions, killing them "humanely," and making a buck.

Distinction without a difference.



This. The main reason why I don't eat meat anymore.
Post #: 48
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/12/2013 8:53:21 AM   
Jeff Jesser


Posts: 17553
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd G

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

Unless you're a vegan, in which case I guess you can claim the moral high ground (if there is any), what's the difference between shooting a duck that is then eaten and buying ground beef in the store?

I'm not a hunter, personally, and if someone kills something just to kill it, but not to make good use of the animal, I look askance. But there's nothing superior about raising a cow with drugs and an unnatural diet only to be slaughtered. Just a different venue for the same thing, that's all.

Again, I'm not a hunter, just isn't my thing. Not about to look down on those who enjoy it responsibly, though.


I can understand his point.

Todd isn't talking about the killing for food - he's talking about "the enjoyment of mowing down life".

There is a difference between a farmer that raises livestock for the sole purpose of "creating food", vs someone that goes hunting for the sport of the hunt and the game is fortunately put to good use - but as an afterthought.

I think its fantastic that all the kills went to needy people. I really do think that's an amazing thing. But I doubt that is the reason most hunters go on these hunts. Its a byproduct.


Possibly, although most hunters I know also happen to be the most passionate conservationists I know. Small sample size (whee!), but I get the impresion that there is a large chunk of hunters who aren't just out there to shoot an animal wihtouth thinking more about the larger picture of what they're doing.

And in any event, I don't know that there really is a difference as compared to a Gold'n Plump raising chickens in lousy conditions. In fact, I'd say there's an argument that it's worse.


"the enjoyment of mowing down life".


Point is -- even if that's an accurate description, which I'm not sure it is -- that it's not morally inferior to a company raising animals in miserable conditions, killing them "humanely," and making a buck.

Distinction without a difference.


But McNuggets taste good.


They really don't.

And I love fast food.



I think you are both correct since they probably aren't even considered "meat".
Post #: 49
RE: Idle Talk, 4th chapter - 6/12/2013 8:57:40 AM   
Jeff Jesser


Posts: 17553
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

We're beatin Panama and you can actually watch it!
Is that a good thing, guys?
We seem to be winning more. Can't be bad.



USNAT federation finally took their head out of their asses and played the game in a venue that cared. It's amazing what a crowd of 45,000 cheering fans will do for your confidence versus a stadium packed with South Americans throwing bags of piss at you (yes Chicago, we are looking at you).

Also, Altidore is finally doing his job.
Post #: 50
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