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RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/12/2017 8:47:28 AM

Karl Juhnke

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

I watched the Presser today. Wiggins basically said he hadn't signed because he didn't have an agent and was afraid of screwing something up. I'm going to take him at his word and the Wolves are now one big happy family.

There was no hurry. I'd take my time scrutinizing the deal too.

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I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night

Post #: 9651

RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/12/2017 8:51:19 AM

Karl Juhnke

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I hope one day to be excited about this, but right now I just can't. I feel like this off season has gone a long way toward handcuffing the organization in its attempts to build a proper supporting cast around Towns / Butler. Spent too much money for the wrong players. The only way this works is if Wiggins develops into Butler 2.0.

Yup. Things could get really scary in 2 years when Taj and Teague can walk and we don't have anything but exceptions to replace them.

It's an awful lot of money to sink into just three players, on a team that is still evolving, hasn't accomplished a darn thing yet, and is likely going to need roster flexibility as it continues to figure things out.

< Message edited by Karl Juhnke -- 10/12/2017 8:53:32 AM >

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I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night

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RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/12/2017 9:17:57 AM

TJSweens

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It's puts them in a position where they have to have Spurs like magic when they draft. They have to hit on that player who a year or two down the road, people wonder how they got him at that point in the draft. They have to hit on second rounders who come over after a couple of years over seas and contribute. They also have to hit on the right players with their exceptions.

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When you have good players that aren’t particularly good leaders, their coaches or managers will say that they “lead by example.” It’s a polite way of saying they don’t lead. - Tom Powers

Post #: 9653

RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/12/2017 10:56:09 AM

David Levine

Posts: 57955
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I hope one day to be excited about this, but right now I just can't. I feel like this off season has gone a long way toward handcuffing the organization in its attempts to build a proper supporting cast around Towns / Butler. Spent too much money for the wrong players. The only way this works is if Wiggins develops into Butler 2.0.

Yup. Things could get really scary in 2 years when Taj and Teague can walk and we don't have anything but exceptions to replace them.

It's an awful lot of money to sink into just three players, on a team that is still evolving, hasn't accomplished a darn thing yet, and is likely going to need roster flexibility as it continues to figure things out.

We also need to be good enough over the next 2 years that Butler wants to stay.

Post #: 9654

RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/12/2017 10:59:56 AM

kgdabom

Posts: 16642
Joined: 7/29/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

I watched the Presser today. Wiggins basically said he hadn't signed because he didn't have an agent and was afraid of screwing something up. I'm going to take him at his word and the Wolves are now one big happy family.

There was no hurry. I'd take my time scrutinizing the deal too.

He had plenty of time to scrutinize the deal and had a experienced agent to explain it to him. Then he fired that agent and had nobody to explain it to him. Then he didn't want to screw it up. That was the progression.

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"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 9655

RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/12/2017 11:25:12 AM

David Levine

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From: Las Vegas
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Solid take by Eric at Canis:

I don’t love this, but it was obviously coming, so no point in screaming about it just because pen was finally put to paper. I have serious doubt that this will be a wise investment for the Wolves, but several things conspired to make it happen. First, the system is designed this way—it encourages overpays of your own guys. Second, Wiggins scores a lot, was the prize in a big trade, and is popular. Even if you (as decision-maker) don’t think this is the right thing, it takes a strong constitution to go in a different direction. Glen Taylor doesn’t have that.

I really don’t know where Thibs is on this; I think I underestimated how bad an idea it was to have one guy in both jobs. That’s not just specific to this contract, but overall. It’s too much. But there is reason to question Thibs’ evaluation abilities.

It’s possible, of course, that Wiggins develops into a much better player than I envision, and it’s all worth it. Even if he doesn’t, though, it’s not necessarily fatal, depending on your expectations. I’ve never been a championship or bust guy, and it’s very possible that the Wolves are a competitive and entertaining team over the next half-decade even if Wiggins doesn’t become a superstar.

Wiggins himself is an unusual player in some ways. When you try to fairly group him statistically, he winds up on fairly short lists of guys you would never call stars. On the other hand, most of those guys were older, because it remains a fairly recent development that 19 year olds were in the league, so there is a limited sample. Most of those guys also lacked the physical gifts we think Wiggins has, which is a double-edged sword.

At the moment he fits the broad category of "guys who score a lot with middling efficiency but don’t do much else." I’ve made this point before on multiple occasions, but these are guys who generally get overpaid and don’t generally contribute to winning as top players on teams. In fact, guys like this often are big scorers on bad teams, exactly what Wiggins has been for his career so far. (Aside: They often wind up having their most productive years as sixth men on better teams.)

That doesn’t mean his fate is written in stone. But there is real risk here, and I don’t love the odds.

Post #: 9656

RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/12/2017 11:51:36 AM

kgdabom

Posts: 16642
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Solid take by Eric at Canis:

I don’t love this, but it was obviously coming, so no point in screaming about it just because pen was finally put to paper. I have serious doubt that this will be a wise investment for the Wolves, but several things conspired to make it happen. First, the system is designed this way—it encourages overpays of your own guys. Second, Wiggins scores a lot, was the prize in a big trade, and is popular. Even if you (as decision-maker) don’t think this is the right thing, it takes a strong constitution to go in a different direction. Glen Taylor doesn’t have that.

I really don’t know where Thibs is on this; I think I underestimated how bad an idea it was to have one guy in both jobs. That’s not just specific to this contract, but overall. It’s too much. But there is reason to question Thibs’ evaluation abilities.

It’s possible, of course, that Wiggins develops into a much better player than I envision, and it’s all worth it. Even if he doesn’t, though, it’s not necessarily fatal, depending on your expectations. I’ve never been a championship or bust guy, and it’s very possible that the Wolves are a competitive and entertaining team over the next half-decade even if Wiggins doesn’t become a superstar.

Wiggins himself is an unusual player in some ways. When you try to fairly group him statistically, he winds up on fairly short lists of guys you would never call stars. On the other hand, most of those guys were older, because it remains a fairly recent development that 19 year olds were in the league, so there is a limited sample. Most of those guys also lacked the physical gifts we think Wiggins has, which is a double-edged sword.

At the moment he fits the broad category of "guys who score a lot with middling efficiency but don’t do much else." I’ve made this point before on multiple occasions, but these are guys who generally get overpaid and don’t generally contribute to winning as top players on teams. In fact, guys like this often are big scorers on bad teams, exactly what Wiggins has been for his career so far. (Aside: They often wind up having their most productive years as sixth men on better teams.)

That doesn’t mean his fate is written in stone. But there is real risk here, and I don’t love the odds.

It is my understanding that 70 players are currently on Max Contracts. Let's say 20 are no way worth it. 20 are not what you hope for but OK. and 30 players are absolutely worth it or more. So to me to be worth a Max contract Wiggins needs to become a top 50 player in the league. I feel comfortable with that happening. To really be worth it he needs to become a top 30 player in the league. Less likely but possible.
I really don't see all the need for wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth over Wiggins being our third fiddle on a max contract.

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"So let it be written.
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Post #: 9657

RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/12/2017 12:13:13 PM

Aaron Cross

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Joined: 3/25/2014
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So when can I they start talking extension with Butler?

Its a shame Wiggins, towns, and butler couldn’t get together and take San Antonio-like discounts in order to assemble a championship team.

< Message edited by Aaron Cross -- 10/12/2017 12:14:47 PM >

Post #: 9658

RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/12/2017 12:50:31 PM

David Levine

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Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aaron Cross

Its a shame Wiggins, towns, and butler couldn’t get together and take San Antonio-like discounts in order to assemble a championship team.

Its apples and oranges to compare young players coming off rookie deals with guys near the ends of their careers that have made massive money already.

And Butler is massively underpaid the next 2 years. His salary is close to Dieng and Gibson than Wiggins' new deal. Hell, he makes less than Teague the next 2 years...

Post #: 9659

RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/12/2017 1:55:24 PM

Karl Juhnke

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

I watched the Presser today. Wiggins basically said he hadn't signed because he didn't have an agent and was afraid of screwing something up. I'm going to take him at his word and the Wolves are now one big happy family.

There was no hurry. I'd take my time scrutinizing the deal too.

He had plenty of time to scrutinize the deal and had a experienced agent to explain it to him. Then he fired that agent and had nobody to explain it to him. Then he didn't want to screw it up. That was the progression.

Yeah, but I mean the deal wasn't going anywhere. So he took some time to consider it. So what?

_____________________________

I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night

Post #: 9660

RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/12/2017 2:53:06 PM

kgdabom

Posts: 16642
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

I watched the Presser today. Wiggins basically said he hadn't signed because he didn't have an agent and was afraid of screwing something up. I'm going to take him at his word and the Wolves are now one big happy family.

There was no hurry. I'd take my time scrutinizing the deal too.

He had plenty of time to scrutinize the deal and had a experienced agent to explain it to him. Then he fired that agent and had nobody to explain it to him. Then he didn't want to screw it up. That was the progression.

Yeah, but I mean the deal wasn't going anywhere. So he took some time to consider it. So what?

The So What IMO Karl is he exposed himself to massive risk. Also did a tiny bit of damage to all the good vibes of love and brotherhood. You are absolutely correct though if you are basically saying no big deal.

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"So let it be written.
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RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/13/2017 9:31:14 AM

ruffenach

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I believe that Wiggins will benefit greatly from playing shooting guard where he will be better able to utilize his skills. I also believe that guarding the second best wing will help too.He will also better understand what Thibs wants him to do.

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RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/13/2017 9:44:46 AM

TJSweens

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My hope is that Thibs sees in Wigg what he saw in Butler and can get it out of him the same way he did with Butler. That is my hope. Really, really, really hoping for that.

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When you have good players that aren’t particularly good leaders, their coaches or managers will say that they “lead by example.” It’s a polite way of saying they don’t lead. - Tom Powers

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RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/13/2017 10:05:31 AM

Elliot

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From: North Highland Beach, NJ
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Zach Lowe prediction: Aldrich and a second round pick for Jared Dudley? I love it.

< Message edited by Elliot -- 10/13/2017 10:07:40 AM >

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While you're busy making other plans

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RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/13/2017 10:15:54 AM

David Levine

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Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elliot

Zach Lowe prediction: Aldrich and a second round pick for Jared Dudley? I love it.

In a heartbeat.

Post #: 9665

RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/13/2017 10:27:39 AM

kgdabom

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Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elliot

Zach Lowe prediction: Aldrich and a second round pick for Jared Dudley? I love it.

In a heartbeat.

What's so good about Dudley? He had a per last year of 10 compared to Shabazz at 15/

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

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RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/13/2017 10:29:26 AM

Elliot

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From: North Highland Beach, NJ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elliot

Zach Lowe prediction: Aldrich and a second round pick for Jared Dudley? I love it.

In a heartbeat.

Doogie says there's legs to this.

_____________________________

Life is just what happens to you,
While you're busy making other plans

~ John Lennon

Post #: 9667

RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/13/2017 10:35:28 AM

David Levine

Posts: 57955
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elliot

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elliot

Zach Lowe prediction: Aldrich and a second round pick for Jared Dudley? I love it.

In a heartbeat.

Doogie says there's legs to this.

That would be outstanding. He'd help fill the biggest hole on our roster.

Post #: 9668

RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/13/2017 10:47:52 AM

David Levine

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Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

There are some downsides to a Dudley deal.

It almost assuredly puts us into the luxury tax next year. Which would mean we'd only get the tax payer exception of 5.1M instead of the 8.4M MLE.

And then the next year KAT and Butler's extensions kick in, so we'd be looking at "repeater tax". Which I'm not sure Taylor would be willing to pay.

If we do trade for Dudley, it could mean that Dieng isn't long for the team.

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RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/13/2017 10:56:17 AM

TJSweens

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I think Dieng is probably a serious trade candidate either way. He is not a great fit with the roster and what Thibs wants to do. He also could bring decent return in a deal.

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When you have good players that aren’t particularly good leaders, their coaches or managers will say that they “lead by example.” It’s a polite way of saying they don’t lead. - Tom Powers

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RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/13/2017 11:04:15 AM

David Levine

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From: Las Vegas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I think Dieng is probably a serious trade candidate either way. He is not a great fit with the roster and what Thibs wants to do. He also could bring decent return in a deal.

Possible. I wish we would've waited until this offseason to extend him. Not only would we have had way more capspace to work with, but he likely would've commanded a smaller deal.

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RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/13/2017 11:05:42 AM

kgdabom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I think Dieng is probably a serious trade candidate either way. He is not a great fit with the roster and what Thibs wants to do. He also could bring decent return in a deal.

I don't see this. I believe Dieng is a great fit for what Thibs wants to do.

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"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

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RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/13/2017 4:17:39 PM

kgdabom

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Per Wolves official site they have signed Shawne Williams. Very nice 3% from a 6'10" in shoes guy. We will be his 8th team in the last 8 years. He was out of the league the last two years. Uncertain if he was playing overseas or what.
Edit: After looking further into his situation he was playing no where for the last two seasons. He did have a short stint in China once. Very naturally talented, but seems to be a head case. Has worn out his welcome everywhere he has been.
This one is a head scratcher to me.

< Message edited by kgdabom -- 10/13/2017 4:31:03 PM >

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"So let it be written.
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RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/13/2017 4:32:48 PM

Phil Riewer

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Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom
Per Wolves official site they have signed Shawne Williams. Very nice 3% from a 6'10" in shoes guy. We will be his 8th team in the last 8 years. He was out of the league the last two years. Uncertain if he was playing overseas or what.
Edit: After looking further into his situation he was playing no where for the last two seasons. He did have a short stint in China once. Very naturally talented, but seems to be a head case. Has worn out his welcome everywhere he has been.
This one is a head scratcher to me.

It can be a one week signing....

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RE: Wolves talk and rumors 2014 - 10/13/2017 4:46:52 PM

David Levine

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Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

The Wolves announced the signing on Friday. It’s a procedural move because the team intends to waive him on Saturday so that Minnesota’s G-League affiliate in Iowa will own his rights. Williams will still be an NBA free agent and will be able to sign with any team in the league. But he will start the season in Iowa as he tries to work his way back.

Williams last played in the NBA in 2014-15 with the Detroit Pistons and Miami Heat. He has also played for the Pacers, Mavericks, Knicks, Nets and Lakers.

Post #: 9675