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Jeff Jesser -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 10:27:36 AM)
Agreed 99.9%. My .1 would be a couple sure fire OLine guys.

Jeff Jesser -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 10:31:32 AM)
BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here.

TJSweens -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 10:48:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here. Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO.

Jeff Jesser -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 10:53:00 AM)
Right. So why are we NOT teaching/implementing that type of stuff? Seems sort of useful....

Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 11:15:07 AM)
Turnovers are huge. It demoralizes a team if they are on the losing end of it. I think you are hitting a great point. I found this quote: Three or four sacks is often equivalent to a turnover as measured by EPA. So by that measure a player who creates turnovers is more valuable than someone who merely tackles a quarterback behind the line of scrimmage. The Vikings have had a number of interceptions this year, but probably not as many as Cousins threw. I was just thinking that a turnover is a great way to stop a drive, and our defense doesn't seem to force many punts.

beo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 12:35:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson Turnovers are huge. It demoralizes a team if they are on the losing end of it. I think you are hitting a great point. I found this quote: Three or four sacks is often equivalent to a turnover as measured by EPA. So by that measure a player who creates turnovers is more valuable than someone who merely tackles a quarterback behind the line of scrimmage. The Vikings have had a number of interceptions this year, but probably not as many as Cousins threw. I was just thinking that a turnover is a great way to stop a drive, and our defense doesn't seem to force many punts. That was the thing that intriqued me about Ngakoue... if the plan was to have Hunter/Ngakoue/Pierce/Somebody as the line in 2021 it looks appealing... that line could potentially cause havoc and created turnovers... Alas, it's the Vikings... was never going to happen.

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 1:15:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson Turnovers are huge. It demoralizes a team if they are on the losing end of it. I think you are hitting a great point. I found this quote: Three or four sacks is often equivalent to a turnover as measured by EPA. So by that measure a player who creates turnovers is more valuable than someone who merely tackles a quarterback behind the line of scrimmage. The Vikings have had a number of interceptions this year, but probably not as many as Cousins threw. I was just thinking that a turnover is a great way to stop a drive, and our defense doesn't seem to force many punts. Cousins has the second most turnovers of any QB in the league this season (Wentz #1).

Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 1:22:50 PM)
Most yards in a season by rookie WRs: 1. Anquan Boldin ('03) - 1,377 2. Randy Moss ('98) - 1,313 3. Odell Beckham Jr ('13) - 1,305 4. Michael Clayton ('04) - 1,193 5. Justin Jefferson ('20) - 1,182* *through 15 games PFF on Twitter So 2 more 100 yard games and he will be number one? Am I reading this correctly?

Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 1:45:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here. Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO. Seems to me Griffen did it more than a few times. Hunter has caused a few. To say that we don't teach it is laughable. Patterson is one of the most well respected DLine coaches in the league. We just don't have anyone who can turn the corner consistently on the blind side right now.

TJSweens -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 1:49:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here. Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO. Seems to me Griffen did it more than a few times. Hunter has caused a few. To say that we don't teach it is laughable. Patterson is one of the most well respected DLine coaches in the league. We just don't have anyone who can turn the corner consistently on the blind side right now. Ngokoue has more forced fumbles than Griffen and Hunter combined.

Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 1:51:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser Agreed 99.9%. My .1 would be a couple sure fire OLine guys. I could get on board with that.

David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 1:52:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here. Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO. Seems to me Griffen did it more than a few times. Hunter has caused a few. To say that we don't teach it is laughable. Patterson is one of the most well respected DLine coaches in the league. We just don't have anyone who can turn the corner consistently on the blind side right now. Hunter forced 6 in 78 games. Griffen forced 9 in 147 games. I think its pretty clear that we coach our DEs to wrap up and make sure they get the tackle, vs going for the ball. So not laughable, or a slight on Patterson. Just a different philosophy.

Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 1:57:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here. Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO. Seems to me Griffen did it more than a few times. Hunter has caused a few. To say that we don't teach it is laughable. Patterson is one of the most well respected DLine coaches in the league. We just don't have anyone who can turn the corner consistently on the blind side right now. Ngokoue has more forced fumbles than Griffen and Hunter combined. So you think Patterson doesn't teach it. Every Head Coach and DLine Coach wants strip sacks. We have no one who can even get to the QB(consistently) to touch him let alone strip the ball.

Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 2:00:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here. Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO. Seems to me Griffen did it more than a few times. Hunter has caused a few. To say that we don't teach it is laughable. Patterson is one of the most well respected DLine coaches in the league. We just don't have anyone who can turn the corner consistently on the blind side right now. Hunter forced 6 in 78 games. Griffen forced 9 in 147 games. I think its pretty clear that we coach our DEs to wrap up and make sure they get the tackle, vs going for the ball. So not laughable, or a slight on Patterson. Just a different philosophy. Barriero has Patterson on once in a while. Someone should ask him. I think he would laugh at that assumption.

TJSweens -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 2:01:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here. Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO. Seems to me Griffen did it more than a few times. Hunter has caused a few. To say that we don't teach it is laughable. Patterson is one of the most well respected DLine coaches in the league. We just don't have anyone who can turn the corner consistently on the blind side right now. Ngokoue has more forced fumbles than Griffen and Hunter combined. So you think Patterson doesn't teach it. Every Head Coach and DLine Coach wants strip sacks. We have no one who can even get to the QB(consistently) to touch him let alone strip the ball. As David said, it's pretty obvious Patterson and Zim emphasize getting the QB to the ground over forcing fumbles. Otherwise how do you account for Ngokoue having more forced fumbles in 77 games than a couple of pass rushing stars like Hunter and Griffen in 225 combined games?

David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 2:07:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here. Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO. Seems to me Griffen did it more than a few times. Hunter has caused a few. To say that we don't teach it is laughable. Patterson is one of the most well respected DLine coaches in the league. We just don't have anyone who can turn the corner consistently on the blind side right now. Ngokoue has more forced fumbles than Griffen and Hunter combined. So you think Patterson doesn't teach it. Every Head Coach and DLine Coach wants strip sacks. We have no one who can even get to the QB(consistently) to touch him let alone strip the ball. To an extent, yes. Just like Zimmer doesn't have his DB's gamble/play for INTs, he wants to make the solid (if unspectacular) play. Its in his DNA to play everything tight.

Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 2:11:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here. Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO. Seems to me Griffen did it more than a few times. Hunter has caused a few. To say that we don't teach it is laughable. Patterson is one of the most well respected DLine coaches in the league. We just don't have anyone who can turn the corner consistently on the blind side right now. Ngokoue has more forced fumbles than Griffen and Hunter combined. So you think Patterson doesn't teach it. Every Head Coach and DLine Coach wants strip sacks. We have no one who can even get to the QB(consistently) to touch him let alone strip the ball. As David said, it's pretty obvious Patterson and Zim emphasize getting the QB to the ground over forcing fumbles. Otherwise how do you account for Ngokoue having more forced fumbles in 77 games than a couple of pass rushing stars like Hunter and Griffen in 225 combined games? I've seen Griffen tomohawk many times when he gets there. He doesn't just go for mid section and take a guy down. Hunter is in face of QB so he can see it coming and tucks it away. JMO but I think every D-Coordinator stresses TOs and this is a way to get them. It's an innate skill. Some are better than others.

Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 2:12:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here. Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO. Seems to me Griffen did it more than a few times. Hunter has caused a few. To say that we don't teach it is laughable. Patterson is one of the most well respected DLine coaches in the league. We just don't have anyone who can turn the corner consistently on the blind side right now. Ngokoue has more forced fumbles than Griffen and Hunter combined. So you think Patterson doesn't teach it. Every Head Coach and DLine Coach wants strip sacks. We have no one who can even get to the QB(consistently) to touch him let alone strip the ball. To an extent, yes. Just like Zimmer doesn't have his DB's gamble/play for INTs, he wants to make the solid (if unspectacular) play. Its in his DNA to play everything tight. Then we agree. The original point was that we don't teach it at all.

beo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 2:15:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here. Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO. Seems to me Griffen did it more than a few times. Hunter has caused a few. To say that we don't teach it is laughable. Patterson is one of the most well respected DLine coaches in the league. We just don't have anyone who can turn the corner consistently on the blind side right now. Ngokoue has more forced fumbles than Griffen and Hunter combined. So you think Patterson doesn't teach it. Every Head Coach and DLine Coach wants strip sacks. We have no one who can even get to the QB(consistently) to touch him let alone strip the ball. As David said, it's pretty obvious Patterson and Zim emphasize getting the QB to the ground over forcing fumbles. Otherwise how do you account for Ngokoue having more forced fumbles in 77 games than a couple of pass rushing stars like Hunter and Griffen in 225 combined games? I've seen Griffen tomohawk many times when he gets there. He doesn't just go for mid section and take a guy down. Hunter is in face of QB so he can see it coming and tucks it away. JMO but I think every D-Coordinator stresses TOs and this is a way to get them. It's an innate skill. Some are better than others. Charles (Peanut) Tillman was a master at forcing fumbles... somewhat of a rarity at the CB position... watching him I noticed that a lot of it is timing... and that is tough to teach.

David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 2:19:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here. Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO. Seems to me Griffen did it more than a few times. Hunter has caused a few. To say that we don't teach it is laughable. Patterson is one of the most well respected DLine coaches in the league. We just don't have anyone who can turn the corner consistently on the blind side right now. Ngokoue has more forced fumbles than Griffen and Hunter combined. So you think Patterson doesn't teach it. Every Head Coach and DLine Coach wants strip sacks. We have no one who can even get to the QB(consistently) to touch him let alone strip the ball. To an extent, yes. Just like Zimmer doesn't have his DB's gamble/play for INTs, he wants to make the solid (if unspectacular) play. Its in his DNA to play everything tight. Then we agree. The original point was that we don't teach it at all. Not so much. I think Zimmer is afraid of getting burned. He wants to ensure the sack, and if the QB fumbles on the way down, all the better. But he doesn't want to risk the QB getting away and completing the play if we miss the strip.

David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 2:27:41 PM)
I don't think its a fluke (or a lack of talent) that we've only had one season under Zimmer where we haven't been bottom 3rd (or much worse) at forcing fumbles. It appears to be a philosophy at every level of the defense. How often do you see our players go after the ball instead of the tackle on a ball carrier? Definitely not as much as other teams seem to. 2014: 28th 2015: 24th 2016: 21st 2017: 30st 2018: 28th 2019: 6th 2020: 23rd Last year stands out as a clear outlier.

Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 2:36:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beo quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here. Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO. Seems to me Griffen did it more than a few times. Hunter has caused a few. To say that we don't teach it is laughable. Patterson is one of the most well respected DLine coaches in the league. We just don't have anyone who can turn the corner consistently on the blind side right now. Ngokoue has more forced fumbles than Griffen and Hunter combined. So you think Patterson doesn't teach it. Every Head Coach and DLine Coach wants strip sacks. We have no one who can even get to the QB(consistently) to touch him let alone strip the ball. As David said, it's pretty obvious Patterson and Zim emphasize getting the QB to the ground over forcing fumbles. Otherwise how do you account for Ngokoue having more forced fumbles in 77 games than a couple of pass rushing stars like Hunter and Griffen in 225 combined games? I've seen Griffen tomohawk many times when he gets there. He doesn't just go for mid section and take a guy down. Hunter is in face of QB so he can see it coming and tucks it away. JMO but I think every D-Coordinator stresses TOs and this is a way to get them. It's an innate skill. Some are better than others. Charles (Peanut) Tillman was a master at forcing fumbles... somewhat of a rarity at the CB position... watching him I noticed that a lot of it is timing... and that is tough to teach. Yep. Ngakoue is a one trick pony. Speed rusher in passing situations. Griffen and Hunter play the run equally well as pass rushing.

Trekgeekscott -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 2:36:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine I don't think its a fluke (or a lack of talent) that we've only had one season under Zimmer where we haven't been bottom 3rd (or much worse) at forcing fumbles. It appears to be a philosophy at every level of the defense. How often do you see our players go after the ball instead of the tackle on a ball carrier? Definitely not as much as other teams seem to. 2014: 28th 2015: 24th 2016: 21st 2017: 30st 2018: 28th 2019: 6th 2020: 23rd Last year stands out as a clear outlier. It is frustrating to be sure. But I think Zimmer puts a HUGE emphasis on wrapping up the runner and making the tackle. The second guy should be going after the ball. Turnovers are huge. And Zimmer doesn't seem to push much for them. Even our DBs aren't encouraged to go after the ball much. Priority is making sure the guy doesn't get much after the catch. It doesn't seem like many passes are all that contested imho

Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 2:37:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine I don't think its a fluke (or a lack of talent) that we've only had one season under Zimmer where we haven't been bottom 3rd (or much worse) at forcing fumbles. It appears to be a philosophy at every level of the defense. How often do you see our players go after the ball instead of the tackle on a ball carrier? Definitely not as much as other teams seem to. 2014: 28th 2015: 24th 2016: 21st 2017: 30st 2018: 28th 2019: 6th 2020: 23rd Last year stands out as a clear outlier. Good point. Also shows why we are usually near the bottom in missed tackles.

Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (12/23/2020 2:40:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine I don't think its a fluke (or a lack of talent) that we've only had one season under Zimmer where we haven't been bottom 3rd (or much worse) at forcing fumbles. It appears to be a philosophy at every level of the defense. How often do you see our players go after the ball instead of the tackle on a ball carrier? Definitely not as much as other teams seem to. 2014: 28th 2015: 24th 2016: 21st 2017: 30st 2018: 28th 2019: 6th 2020: 23rd Last year stands out as a clear outlier. It is frustrating to be sure. But I think Zimmer puts a HUGE emphasis on wrapping up the runner and making the tackle. The second guy should be going after the ball. Turnovers are huge. And Zimmer doesn't seem to push much for them. Even our DBs aren't encouraged to go after the ball much. Priority is making sure the guy doesn't get much after the catch. It doesn't seem like many passes are all that contested imho I think that will change with Dantzler and Gladney.

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