RE: 2022 NFL draft (Full Version)

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TJSweens -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:05:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

Hopefully, Cine turns out to be who Kwesi thinks he is.

QB Willis, WR Watson, DT Jones ... maybe TE McBride ... would all be interesting, solid draftnik value at 34.

In theory, I would take either Booth or Gordon to start over Dantzler, Watson to push Osborne, McBride to push Smith.

I agree with all of that except Willis. I want nothing to do with the QBs in this draft.




Murph -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:07:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Murph

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

I’m intrigued by Cine … but it will take some luck for him to end up better than Hamilton.

After talking about the importance of first rd talent vs other rds, Kwesi sure jumped pretty hard to move in the direction of quantity over quality.

It smacks of somebody trying too hard to prove they deserve a spot at the table. The values of the trade are too close to call, why not just get good talent straight up at 12 or move down a little (like Spielman last year), pick up something extra and still get a solid first rd talent?

You don’t have to solve a complicated equation Kwes to prove your worth.

We’ll see how today goes … its very possible 34 could get us a prospect rated higher than our first (like cb Booth).

You never know, maybe we trade the extra third for a veteran and Kwesi proves himself to be diabolically clever.

Right now he just seems too smart for his own good.

Why will it take luck? Cine appears to have better physical attributes than Hamilton. Is it possible that Cine was simply underrated by some?

This will all boil down to who did the best job of evaluating talent .. draft sites, talkvikes fans or the Vikings. It is possible that Kwesi & co did a good job of evaluating the talent that would be available at 12, the end of the round, at the top and middle of the second and decided that there was more value in making the move and picking up a 4th pick in the top 77. We should know by this time next year.

C’mon. Hamilton was universally rated higher. Draft ranking means something or completely nothing. Choose.

Every pick is a gamble, Hamilton at 12 is a risk … but a much smaller risk than Cine at 30.

“What? you say. What do draftniks know … teams pour expertise and resources into it know better.” Yes, which is why Hamilton got drafted where he did and Cine got drafted where he did.

I hope Cine blows everybody away … he has a good chance to be the best talent at the position we’ve had since drafting Harry. Could be better … if we’re lucky.

Or if Kwesi did his homework and was right.


He's not the only player we passed on, there were 19 other players we passed on after the trade.

True. We also moved up to the second spot in the second round and added the second pick in the 3rd round.



I'd be a lot happier if we had taken Jameson Williams or Jordan Davis and we were talking about using some of our 6th and 7th rounders to move up a little in the 2nd for a player like Cine or Booth.

Detroit fans must be ecstatic, they didn't pay much at all to move from 32 to 12 and draft a potential game changer.




TJSweens -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:16:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

We should have gotten Detroit's 2nd and 3rd.

We did get Detroit's 2nd and 3rd round picks. The problem is we gave them our second which we should have kept.


How? Detroit was trading up to the pick behind us with the same capital. We now move up to the top of the 2nd and 3rd round and have 4 picks in the top 80 instead of 3.

What would you think if we drafted Cine at 12?

Its like promoting longer life expectancy rates as proof of advancement in modern medicine.

Uh no ... we are increasing the length of a person's life by tacking on few more sucky final few years. When and if I turn 75, tack on some extra years from my early 20s and then we'll talk.

We moved back 20 picks from 12 to 32 in rd one. That's losing 20 spots of first rd talent.
We moved up 12 picks from 46 to 34. That's gaining 12 spots of second rd. talent.
We gain a third rd pick, free and clear but ... that's a gain of a third rd talent.

Quality matters, not just quantity.



it was a bad deal, plain and simple...worse than any deal spielman has ever made....

That simply isn't true. Remember giving up a 1st for Bradford? A second for Ngokwe and trading him away a couple weeks later for a 3rd. And what did we give to give up to get a punter we could cut?

I get that you can make an argument that Kwesi should have gotten more depending on the chart you use. The idea that this is worse than any Spielman deal or Herschal Walker II is just getting carried away. Instead of 12 & 46, we got 32, 34 & 66. We'll survive.




kgdabom -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:20:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

Looking at it optimistically, at least Cine seems to be viewed as a legit playmaker. The grades are meaningless, but the write-ups indicate that he's a promising addition:

Yahoo Sports
Low-key this was one of our favorite picks of Round 1. Trading down felt like the play for the Vikings at 12, but we had no idea they’d be able to go this far down and get a top-20 talent in Cine. He’ll pair with Harrison Smith as one of the best safety duos in the NFL. Outstanding first selection for Kwesi Adofo-Mensah. Cine will start for a decade. Grade: A

Chad Reuter/NFL.com
I projected Cine to the Vikings in Round 2 of my seven-round mock draft, so I wasn't surprised when they traded down and selected him at No. 32 overall. He'll play right away because he's a big hitter who can cover. Cine's size and athleticism allowed him to stay with receivers and tight ends on crossing routes and downfield; he'll serve as a much-needed nickel defender for Minnesota. New GM Kwesi Adofo-Mensah got excellent value in his deal with the Lions -- he moved up 12 picks in Round 2, added an early third-round selection (No. 66 overall) and landed an impact player in Cine, all for 20 spots in Round 1.

Bleacher Report
As talented as Notre Dame’s Kyle Hamilton is, he’s not the same type of hitter Cine is. Nor does this year’s highest-drafted safety possess as much speed. Initially, Cine can join Harrison Smith, learn from the veteran and form the league’s most physical safety duo. The incoming defensive back will eventually replace Smith, who turned 33 in February. The Vikings can save $15.3 million by releasing the veteran with a June 1 designation next year, per Over The Cap. Grade: B

SI
Cine is an outstanding athlete with good size who could be a long-term replacement for Harrison Smith. He ran a 4.37 40-yard dash at the combine and led all safeties in the broad jump (11’1”). He’s a smart defender and sees the game well. Cine delivers some big hits in run support and is a reliable tackler in space with sideline-to-sideline range. Grade: B

Pete Prisco/CBS
They need a safety next to Harrison Smith and he's getting a little older. Cine is a good-looking player who will cover and hit you. He has the range you like in the back end. This is a good, solid pick. Grade: B+

Fox
There is some poetry to the first round of the draft both beginning and ending with a Georgia Bulldog, with Cine the appropriate capper as the last line of defense for the reigning national champions. For so long, the Vikings boasted one of the NFL's best free safeties in Harrison Smith, but age is catching up to the veteran. Cine catches up with opponents in a flash, and he brings the thunder as a hitter. Grade: B+

Sporting News
It’s fitting that the first round began and ended with national champion Georgia defensive players (five in all). The Vikings get an intimidating cleanup man next to venerable Harrison Smith who also showed he had the athleticism to make a lot more plays in coverage in the NFL. For the team moving down 20 spots, Kwesi Adofo-Mensah did well with his first pick as GM with a fine talent that fits a need and matches the value. Grade: A

PFN
With an enforcing type of play, Lewis Cine brings a similar identity to the Minnesota Vikings defense. Cine hits hard but is a sure tackler. He comes downhill in the run game very well and can play either safety position. Yet, allowing him to play free safety next to Harrison Smith will only elevate his game. Grade: A

Those comments are great and the opinions are more valued that Brad's or KG's.

Bstinger I too am encouraged by the consensus that Cine is a solid pick. I never thought he was a bad pick. If you check my comments I think they're pretty balanced. My position is that based on usual compensation for similar trade downs Kwesi sold short. It can certainly work out in the end.




kgdabom -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:24:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

We should have gotten Detroit's 2nd and 3rd.

We did get Detroit's 2nd and 3rd round picks. The problem is we gave them our second which we should have kept.


How? Detroit was trading up to the pick behind us with the same capital. We now move up to the top of the 2nd and 3rd round and have 4 picks in the top 80 instead of 3.

What would you think if we drafted Cine at 12?

Its like promoting longer life expectancy rates as proof of advancement in modern medicine.

Uh no ... we are increasing the length of a person's life by tacking on few more sucky final few years. When and if I turn 75, tack on some extra years from my early 20s and then we'll talk.

We moved back 20 picks from 12 to 32 in rd one. That's losing 20 spots of first rd talent.
We moved up 12 picks from 46 to 34. That's gaining 12 spots of second rd. talent.
We gain a third rd pick, free and clear but ... that's a gain of a third rd talent.

Quality matters, not just quantity.



it was a bad deal, plain and simple...worse than any deal spielman has ever made....

i think that we all would have woken up this morning feeling much better if we had just stayed at #12 and drafted Williams....

cine seems okay, and I'm confident he'll do well...but Williams is a game-changer - cine is not....

I think Williams will be a game changer. I think Davis will be a bigger game changer. Most consider Hamilton a much better safety prospect than Cine. If none of those three were available I would feel better about the trade.




Brad H -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:36:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

Most of a great safeties in the NFL are 205-15 pounds. I have yet to see a site where Cine is measured over 199 pounds. They say he is a great hitter. At that weight he better be.

OMG he is 6 pounds under the ideal weight range before he has had NFL strength/weight training. He should get to 205 or 210 with ease.

It may seem insignificant, but it isn't. His playing weight at Georgia was around 197. At 6'-to-6'1", he's only got so much frame to put pounds on. If you add 6-11 pounds, you now start to lose speed and range of motion.




Chris Olson -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:39:51 PM)

The more I hear you guys cry about it, the more I love it

It was an outstanding move

we'll have either 4 excellent players (instead of 3)

or we have a fantastic leverage point at 34 for teams wanting QB or another player they are dismayed to see fall out of the first rd




kgdabom -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:40:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

Most of a great safeties in the NFL are 205-15 pounds. I have yet to see a site where Cine is measured over 199 pounds. They say he is a great hitter. At that weight he better be.

OMG he is 6 pounds under the ideal weight range before he has had NFL strength/weight training. He should get to 205 or 210 with ease.

It may seem insignificant, but it isn't. His playing weight at Georgia was around 197. At 6'-to-6'1", he's only got so much frame to put pounds on. If you add 6-11 pounds, you now start to lose speed and range of motion.

He's at least 6'1". I've seen him listed at 6'2". I'm off to see if we have combine measurements for him. Brad you're holding a position that is contrary to what is commonly held knowledge. Athletes at his age add mass and strength as they get older.
EDIT: I just checked his official combine measurement 74.25 inches. That's 6'2.25" inches tall.




geoffrey greitzer -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:42:20 PM)

at 4.37 speed if it goes to 4.39 with 15 pounds of muscle, I would be ok with that.

Willis or Howell at 34?




David Levine -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:45:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

Most of a great safeties in the NFL are 205-15 pounds. I have yet to see a site where Cine is measured over 199 pounds. They say he is a great hitter. At that weight he better be.

OMG he is 6 pounds under the ideal weight range before he has had NFL strength/weight training. He should get to 205 or 210 with ease.

It may seem insignificant, but it isn't. His playing weight at Georgia was around 197. At 6'-to-6'1", he's only got so much frame to put pounds on. If you add 6-11 pounds, you now start to lose speed and range of motion.


So a year ago at 185, he must have run like a 3.4...




Brad H -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:46:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

Most of a great safeties in the NFL are 205-15 pounds. I have yet to see a site where Cine is measured over 199 pounds. They say he is a great hitter. At that weight he better be.

OMG he is 6 pounds under the ideal weight range before he has had NFL strength/weight training. He should get to 205 or 210 with ease.

It may seem insignificant, but it isn't. His playing weight at Georgia was around 197. At 6'-to-6'1", he's only got so much frame to put pounds on. If you add 6-11 pounds, you now start to lose speed and range of motion.

He's at least 6'1". I've seen him listed at 6'2". I'm off to see if we have combine measurements for him. Brad you're holding a position that is contrary to what is commonly held knowledge. Athletes at his age add mass and strength as they get older.
EDIT: I just checked his official combine measurement 74.25 inches. That's 6'2.25" inches tall.

I hope you are right and I am wrong. But 197 for a safety in the NFL will not cut it in the long term. Bob Sanders was only 5'8, but he played at 206. Joey Browner played at 221. He was a monster. Ed Reed 205. Ronnie Lott, 203. Polamalu, 207.




kgdabom -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:46:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: geoffrey greitzer

at 4.37 speed if it goes to 4.39 with 15 pounds of muscle, I would be ok with that.

Willis or Howell at 34?

Neither. Give me Watson, Booth or Gordon.




kgdabom -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:48:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

Most of a great safeties in the NFL are 205-15 pounds. I have yet to see a site where Cine is measured over 199 pounds. They say he is a great hitter. At that weight he better be.

OMG he is 6 pounds under the ideal weight range before he has had NFL strength/weight training. He should get to 205 or 210 with ease.

It may seem insignificant, but it isn't. His playing weight at Georgia was around 197. At 6'-to-6'1", he's only got so much frame to put pounds on. If you add 6-11 pounds, you now start to lose speed and range of motion.

He's at least 6'1". I've seen him listed at 6'2". I'm off to see if we have combine measurements for him. Brad you're holding a position that is contrary to what is commonly held knowledge. Athletes at his age add mass and strength as they get older.
EDIT: I just checked his official combine measurement 74.25 inches. That's 6'2.25" inches tall.

I hope you are right and I am wrong. But 197 for a safety in the NFL will not cut it in the long term. Bob Sanders was only 5'8, but he played at 206.

So if Bob Sanders can carry 206 pounds at 5'8" it seems reasonable that Cine at 6'2.25" can handle that much weight or more without much difficulty.
You continue to try to fudge his numbers down. His pro day weight and his combine weight were both 199. At that weight he was able to run a 4.37 40. Successful safeties are expected to run the 40 in 4.6 or better. Hamilton barely squeaked under that at 4.59 at the combine and I hear ran in the 4.7s at his pro days. However, Hamilton is 6'4" and 220 pounds.




Tom Sykes -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:48:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

Most of a great safeties in the NFL are 205-15 pounds. I have yet to see a site where Cine is measured over 199 pounds. They say he is a great hitter. At that weight he better be.

OMG he is 6 pounds under the ideal weight range before he has had NFL strength/weight training. He should get to 205 or 210 with ease.

It may seem insignificant, but it isn't. His playing weight at Georgia was around 197. At 6'-to-6'1", he's only got so much frame to put pounds on. If you add 6-11 pounds, you now start to lose speed and range of motion.

Very insignificant and you know it. He could gain 20 lbs and would still by flying past Harry on the way to ball carriers.

The question is not if he’s a good college safety or got drafted two or three spots lower or higher than projected … its how we came by that pick.

The pick in itself is fine.




Brad H -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:50:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

Most of a great safeties in the NFL are 205-15 pounds. I have yet to see a site where Cine is measured over 199 pounds. They say he is a great hitter. At that weight he better be.

OMG he is 6 pounds under the ideal weight range before he has had NFL strength/weight training. He should get to 205 or 210 with ease.

It may seem insignificant, but it isn't. His playing weight at Georgia was around 197. At 6'-to-6'1", he's only got so much frame to put pounds on. If you add 6-11 pounds, you now start to lose speed and range of motion.

He's at least 6'1". I've seen him listed at 6'2". I'm off to see if we have combine measurements for him. Brad you're holding a position that is contrary to what is commonly held knowledge. Athletes at his age add mass and strength as they get older.
EDIT: I just checked his official combine measurement 74.25 inches. That's 6'2.25" inches tall.

I hope you are right and I am wrong. But 197 for a safety in the NFL will not cut it in the long term. Bob Sanders was only 5'8, but he played at 206.

So if Bob Sanders can carry 206 pounds at 5'8" it seems reasonable that Cine at 6'2.25" can handle that much weight or more without much difficulty.

Yes, but Bob Sanders played at 204 in college. He was NFL ready when he hit the field. Not everybody's chemistry is the same. Some carry weight better than others.

I can assure you Lewis Cine is not 6'2 or 6'2.25. The Georgia site says 6'1, which likely means 6'0.5".




kgdabom -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:53:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

Most of a great safeties in the NFL are 205-15 pounds. I have yet to see a site where Cine is measured over 199 pounds. They say he is a great hitter. At that weight he better be.

OMG he is 6 pounds under the ideal weight range before he has had NFL strength/weight training. He should get to 205 or 210 with ease.

It may seem insignificant, but it isn't. His playing weight at Georgia was around 197. At 6'-to-6'1", he's only got so much frame to put pounds on. If you add 6-11 pounds, you now start to lose speed and range of motion.

Very insignificant and you know it. He could gain 20 lbs and would still by flying past Harry on the way to ball carriers.

The question is not if he’s a good college safety or got drafted two or three spots lower or higher than projected … its how we came by that pick.

The pick in itself is fine.

Agreed.




kgdabom -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:55:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

Most of a great safeties in the NFL are 205-15 pounds. I have yet to see a site where Cine is measured over 199 pounds. They say he is a great hitter. At that weight he better be.

OMG he is 6 pounds under the ideal weight range before he has had NFL strength/weight training. He should get to 205 or 210 with ease.

It may seem insignificant, but it isn't. His playing weight at Georgia was around 197. At 6'-to-6'1", he's only got so much frame to put pounds on. If you add 6-11 pounds, you now start to lose speed and range of motion.

He's at least 6'1". I've seen him listed at 6'2". I'm off to see if we have combine measurements for him. Brad you're holding a position that is contrary to what is commonly held knowledge. Athletes at his age add mass and strength as they get older.
EDIT: I just checked his official combine measurement 74.25 inches. That's 6'2.25" inches tall.

I hope you are right and I am wrong. But 197 for a safety in the NFL will not cut it in the long term. Bob Sanders was only 5'8, but he played at 206.

So if Bob Sanders can carry 206 pounds at 5'8" it seems reasonable that Cine at 6'2.25" can handle that much weight or more without much difficulty.

Yes, but Bob Sanders played at 204 in college. He was NFL ready when he hit the field. Not everybody's chemistry is the same. Some carry weight better than others.

I can assure you Lewis Cine is not 6'2 or 6'2.25. The Georgia site says 6'1, which likely means 6'0.5".

Wrong. He grew. Official combine measurements don't lie. Same measurements at his pro day. I'm now done discussing his size with you. Other aspects about him I'm still happy to discuss.




David Levine -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:55:50 PM)

I'm guessing this guy will have no issues with an extra 5-10 pounds:

[image]https://i.ibb.co/xgyg9TZ/1391693557.jpg[/image]

[image]https://i.ibb.co/FmYRjtx/1381897859.jpg[/image]

[image]https://i.ibb.co/yXnYXqp/Lewis-CINE-guestpostgallery-ms-lhlyivcryo.jpg[/image]




Brad H -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 12:58:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

I'm guessing this guy will have no issues with an extra 5-10 pounds:

[image]https://i.ibb.co/xgyg9TZ/1391693557.jpg[/image]

[image]https://i.ibb.co/FmYRjtx/1381897859.jpg[/image]

[image]https://i.ibb.co/yXnYXqp/Lewis-CINE-guestpostgallery-ms-lhlyivcryo.jpg[/image]

Why? He already looks maxed out to me. Ad 5-10 pounds and it is tougher on the knees, ankles, you name it.

I'm not sure why you guys think 5-10 pounds is insignificant. That's a huge amount of weight for a secondary cover guy to add to his frame.




Brad H -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 1:02:53 PM)

Brian Dawkins, 210 playing weight.




David Levine -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 1:03:20 PM)

Maybe we're not that concerned because most players gain muscle weight when they get to the Pros.

NFL strength and conditioning programs are light years ahead of college, not to mention the access to dietitians and nutritionists.

And then the whole thing about bodies continuing to mature into your 20s.

I don't see "maxed out" at all. And I don't see 5-10 pounds spread out over 6'2 being the precursor to morbid obesity and diabetes that you do either...

Its such a weird hill to die on, when there are actual legitimate concerns...




Brad H -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 1:03:25 PM)

Kenny Easley, 206.




Brad H -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 1:03:59 PM)

Kam Chancellor, 225.




Brad H -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 1:04:29 PM)

Sean Taylor, 212.




Karl Juhnke -> RE: 2022 NFL draft (4/29/2022 1:05:12 PM)

Listening to Common on KFAN. He had a guy on with NBC sports, locally based. Don’t know who he is but he brings up an interesting point. This draft is weaker on top, but unusually deep, due too Covid and other factors.

That’s probably what drove Kwesi to the trade. Trade charts that are static from year to year assigning a set value to each spot and don’t take into account the makeup of a draft said Vikings lost the trade. But a system that factors in the characteristics of a particular draft may tell a different story.




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