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ronhextall -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 10:21:03 AM)
How many teams thought tanking for Baker Mayfield Josh Rosen Sam Darnold Kyler Murray was a good idea? I doubt any will admit it now but I am sure some thought there was a can’t miss in that list. Walk into locker room and tell the team the plan is to suck beyond sucking so they can position themselves to draft a kid. Bet that would go over just great.

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 10:21:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David F. quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: David F. Draft class rankings are irrelevant until after three years have passed. Are you saying it is going to take three years to rebuild our defense? No I'm saying it takes three years to evaluate a draft. I would say, in some cases I agree. But it's not a hard, fast rule. Much of it has to do with the coaching and whether or not the kids are put in a position to succeed. IMO, this season they were not on the defensive side of the ball. Unfortunately, there isn't any buzz about Donatell getting fired.

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 10:24:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall How many teams thought tanking for Baker Mayfield Josh Rosen Sam Darnold Kyler Murray was a good idea? I doubt any will admit it now but I am sure some thought there was a can’t miss in that list. Walk into locker room and tell the team the plan is to suck beyond sucking so they can position themselves to draft a kid. Bet that would go over just great. Well, I don't think you send the team that message. That would be pretty bleak. I think the message should be more like...."get better or we'll find someone that is." It's a Bill Belichick philosophy. Do your job.

drviking -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 10:28:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall How many teams thought tanking for Baker Mayfield Josh Rosen Sam Darnold Kyler Murray was a good idea? I doubt any will admit it now but I am sure some thought there was a can’t miss in that list. Walk into locker room and tell the team the plan is to suck beyond sucking so they can position themselves to draft a kid. Bet that would go over just great. Well, I don't think you send the team that message. That would be pretty bleak. I think the message should be more like...."get better or we'll find someone that is." It's a Bill Belichick philosophy. Do your job. Belicheck is over rated Good coach ,not great

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 10:29:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drviking quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall How many teams thought tanking for Baker Mayfield Josh Rosen Sam Darnold Kyler Murray was a good idea? I doubt any will admit it now but I am sure some thought there was a can’t miss in that list. Walk into locker room and tell the team the plan is to suck beyond sucking so they can position themselves to draft a kid. Bet that would go over just great. Well, I don't think you send the team that message. That would be pretty bleak. I think the message should be more like...."get better or we'll find someone that is." It's a Bill Belichick philosophy. Do your job. Belicheck is over rated Good coach ,not great We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

drviking -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 10:35:08 AM)
Tanking is no guarantee There was a tank for Teddy movement... But, IMO there is a way to build a team that maximize your goal. Find a QB is number one, keep swinging until you know for sure Cowboys drafted a QB in the first round after Aikman If I was the bears I would draft a QB in the first round While doing that, I would build an oline to help develop that QB or the next one You can find good receivers throughout the draft Pass rushers and pass defenders are high priority RB, LB, SS are low priorities Veteran kicker, young punter vet LS

drviking -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 10:36:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: drviking quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall How many teams thought tanking for Baker Mayfield Josh Rosen Sam Darnold Kyler Murray was a good idea? I doubt any will admit it now but I am sure some thought there was a can’t miss in that list. Walk into locker room and tell the team the plan is to suck beyond sucking so they can position themselves to draft a kid. Bet that would go over just great. Well, I don't think you send the team that message. That would be pretty bleak. I think the message should be more like...."get better or we'll find someone that is." It's a Bill Belichick philosophy. Do your job. Belicheck is over rated Good coach ,not great We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Fair enough, I am in the minority, and I am good with that

Murph -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 10:36:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drviking kendricks sucks move on kirk, if you can get him to agree, find a trade...it aint gonna happen, so move on...he is here one last year...DO NOT EXTEND HIM (unless team friendly) we have tied ourselves to kirk last year and this year, so suck it up i would add offense this year....C, OL, WR, QB with our draft picks...have a good oline with weapons for a young QB can do wonders throw some hungry young no-names on defense, and hope for the best.....at worst we drop one spot from 31st to 32nd i am in future building mode with he understanding that Kirk is here this year....maybe trade deadline deal if we have a slow start? This is a great plan, considering our circumstances and today's NFL. I'd jettison all aging vets possible. The only players I don't get rid of because they are going to help our young QB not become the next David Carr are: Darrisaw, O'Neil, JJ, Hockenson, KJ, Hunter(assuming we go back to a 4-3). As far as the draft; let's set up our young QB to succeed first. I really wish we drafted Jameson Williams instead of Cine, that first round last year still bugs the crap out of me. So, I'm looking at offense at the top of the draft. The defense has been horrific the past two seasons anyway. It's a 3 to 4 year Super Bowl plan. I don't see a quicker route but what do I know??

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 10:38:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drviking Tanking is no guarantee There was a tank for Teddy movement... But, IMO there is a way to build a team that maximize your goal. Find a QB is number one, keep swinging until you know for sure Cowboys drafted a QB in the first round after Aikman If I was the bears I would draft a QB in the first round While doing that, I would build an online to help develop that QB or the next one You can find good receivers throughout the draft Pass rushers and pass defenders are high priority RB, LB, SS are low priorities Veteran kicker, young punter vet LS You can't play good defense with garbage on the back end. We have no future stars in the secondary. On defense, it starts there. Hunter, Tomlinson, Tonga and the fellas up front will be fine with different alignment and guys that can cover on the back end.

drviking -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 10:39:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: drviking Tanking is no guarantee There was a tank for Teddy movement... But, IMO there is a way to build a team that maximize your goal. Find a QB is number one, keep swinging until you know for sure Cowboys drafted a QB in the first round after Aikman If I was the bears I would draft a QB in the first round While doing that, I would build an online to help develop that QB or the next one You can find good receivers throughout the draft Pass rushers and pass defenders are high priority RB, LB, SS are low priorities Veteran kicker, young punter vet LS You can't play good defense with garbage on the back end. We have no future stars in the secondary. On defense, it starts there. Hunter, Hicks and the fellas up front will be fine with different alignment and guys that can cover on the back end. Yep pass defenders are a priority

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 10:41:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drviking quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: drviking Tanking is no guarantee There was a tank for Teddy movement... But, IMO there is a way to build a team that maximize your goal. Find a QB is number one, keep swinging until you know for sure Cowboys drafted a QB in the first round after Aikman If I was the bears I would draft a QB in the first round While doing that, I would build an online to help develop that QB or the next one You can find good receivers throughout the draft Pass rushers and pass defenders are high priority RB, LB, SS are low priorities Veteran kicker, young punter vet LS You can't play good defense with garbage on the back end. We have no future stars in the secondary. On defense, it starts there. Hunter, Hicks and the fellas up front will be fine with different alignment and guys that can cover on the back end. Yep pass defenders are a priority If you can't cover, you are dead in this era. We need a complete rebuild. Maybe you squeak one more year out of Peterson. In addition, they need to add some depth up front on offense. We stayed relatively healthy in 2022. That isn't going to happen every year, and we have very little depth up front. Any drafting of a running back earlier than the fourth round should result in termination, should be a new team policy moving forward. As I've said for decades, running backs are a dime-a-dozen and the easiest position on the field to replace. See Jerick McKinnon as a reference point. Every team has 4-5 of them, and only about five in the league are difference-makers on any given year.

David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 10:43:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: David F. quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: David F. Draft class rankings are irrelevant until after three years have passed. Are you saying it is going to take three years to rebuild our defense? No I'm saying it takes three years to evaluate a draft. I would say, in some cases I agree. But it's not a hard, fast rule. Much of it has to do with the coaching and whether or not the kids are put in a position to succeed. IMO, this season they were not on the defensive side of the ball. Unfortunately, there isn't any buzz about Donatell getting fired. Booth and Cine are complete unknowns at this point as well.

David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 10:47:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall How many teams thought tanking for Baker Mayfield Josh Rosen Sam Darnold Kyler Murray was a good idea? I doubt any will admit it now but I am sure some thought there was a can’t miss in that list. Walk into locker room and tell the team the plan is to suck beyond sucking so they can position themselves to draft a kid. Bet that would go over just great. It was a good idea. And when it didn't work out you try it again. And again. At least you have a chance versus an overpriced vet who will get you mediocrity but no shot at the ultimate goal.

Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 10:55:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David F. quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: David F. quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: David F. Draft class rankings are irrelevant until after three years have passed. Are you saying it is going to take three years to rebuild our defense? No I'm saying it takes three years to evaluate a draft. I would say, in some cases I agree. But it's not a hard, fast rule. Much of it has to do with the coaching and whether or not the kids are put in a position to succeed. IMO, this season they were not on the defensive side of the ball. Unfortunately, there isn't any buzz about Donatell getting fired. Booth and Cine are complete unknowns at this point as well. They are complete unknowns, which is not a good thing. - Cine couldn't find the field for whatever reason. Pretty bad when you can't beat out Bynum and Metellus for even a little bit of playing time. - Booth played some and was abused. Granted he was a rookie but he looked clueless. Got by on athleticism in college. He will as a minimum need a lot of good coaching, and it's not a given the coaching is there nor that he will get it. If the 2022 draft was held today I would not draft either as high as they went. Still hoping they both pan out though.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 11:00:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drviking quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall How many teams thought tanking for Baker Mayfield Josh Rosen Sam Darnold Kyler Murray was a good idea? I doubt any will admit it now but I am sure some thought there was a can’t miss in that list. Walk into locker room and tell the team the plan is to suck beyond sucking so they can position themselves to draft a kid. Bet that would go over just great. Well, I don't think you send the team that message. That would be pretty bleak. I think the message should be more like...."get better or we'll find someone that is." It's a Bill Belichick philosophy. Do your job. Belicheck is over rated Good coach ,not great They (NE) never seem to 1) overpay talent 2) keep them past their prime. His innovations of 2 TE, then no huddle from Oregon, zero RB/Zero WR, and riding Brady/Gronk makes him a great coach (Before you even talk about his defense).

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 11:04:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: drviking quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: drviking Tanking is no guarantee There was a tank for Teddy movement... But, IMO there is a way to build a team that maximize your goal. Find a QB is number one, keep swinging until you know for sure Cowboys drafted a QB in the first round after Aikman If I was the bears I would draft a QB in the first round While doing that, I would build an online to help develop that QB or the next one You can find good receivers throughout the draft Pass rushers and pass defenders are high priority RB, LB, SS are low priorities Veteran kicker, young punter vet LS You can't play good defense with garbage on the back end. We have no future stars in the secondary. On defense, it starts there. Hunter, Hicks and the fellas up front will be fine with different alignment and guys that can cover on the back end. Yep pass defenders are a priority If you can't cover, you are dead in this era. We need a complete rebuild. Maybe you squeak one more year out of Peterson. In addition, they need to add some depth up front on offense. We stayed relatively healthy in 2022. That isn't going to happen every year, and we have very little depth up front. Any drafting of a running back earlier than the fourth round should result in termination, should be a new team policy moving forward. As I've said for decades, running backs are a dime-a-dozen and the easiest position on the field to replace. See Jerick McKinnon as a reference point. Every team has 4-5 of them, and only about five in the league are difference-makers on any given year. It isn't just Cook....The Vikes are overpaying aging #2 WR, S, and LBs. That is where you start the cuts. It doesn't have to be a full rebuild. Brad H mentions Bill B but that was one thing his FO was the master at.....rebuild on the fly. I don't agree on a policy to draft a RB at a certain spot....you grab talent where you can no matter the position. I don't remember them on a rebuild year even when Brady hurt his knee.

marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 11:12:25 AM)
I agree 100% with Brad, and keeping Kirk is what will sabotage the team. It's NOT a good sign that Booth and Cine were hurt. I wonder what the % chance of bust is when a player misses most of their rookie season ?

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 11:17:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marty I agree 100% with Brad, and keeping Kirk is what will sabotage the team. It's NOT a good sign that Booth and Cine were hurt. I wonder what the % chance of bust is when a player misses most of their rookie season ? Did he sabotage the team in 2022 or not? Go back to when they signed him. The true sabotage has been the combination of Spielman and Zimmer in that they didn't build an oline or defense....still the problem 5 years later. As much as you are looking to assign him the scapegoat it is on the GM and Coach.......it is on Kwesi and KOC to get it done this offseason.

Murph -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 11:24:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: marty I agree 100% with Brad, and keeping Kirk is what will sabotage the team. It's NOT a good sign that Booth and Cine were hurt. I wonder what the % chance of bust is when a player misses most of their rookie season ? Did he sabotage the team in 2022 or not? Go back to when they signed him. The true sabotage has been the combination of Spielman and Zimmer in that they didn't build an oline or defense....still the problem 5 years later. As much as you are looking to assign him the scapegoat it is on the GM and Coach.......it is on Kwesi and KOC to get it done this offseason. I thought the team was in place when we traded for Kirk? He was supposed to be a big upgrade to Keenum and the missing piece to a team on the brink. He had a really good defense when he first got here, Diggs, young Thielen and Cook. Never-ending excuses for Kurt

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 11:32:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Murph quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: marty I agree 100% with Brad, and keeping Kirk is what will sabotage the team. It's NOT a good sign that Booth and Cine were hurt. I wonder what the % chance of bust is when a player misses most of their rookie season ? Did he sabotage the team in 2022 or not? Go back to when they signed him. The true sabotage has been the combination of Spielman and Zimmer in that they didn't build an oline or defense....still the problem 5 years later. As much as you are looking to assign him the scapegoat it is on the GM and Coach.......it is on Kwesi and KOC to get it done this offseason. I thought the team was in place when we traded for Kirk? He was supposed to be a big upgrade to Keenum and the missing piece to a team on the brink. He had a really good defense when he first got here, Diggs, young Thielen and Cook. Never-ending excuses for Kurt Not sure if the excuse was for Spielman or Zimmer or Kirk. Stability at QB was seen as the problem but you still have to add talent to the roster after getting the QB. 2018, 2019, 2021 drafts---horrible and more of a reason.

ronhextall -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 11:37:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David F. quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall How many teams thought tanking for Baker Mayfield Josh Rosen Sam Darnold Kyler Murray was a good idea? I doubt any will admit it now but I am sure some thought there was a can’t miss in that list. Walk into locker room and tell the team the plan is to suck beyond sucking so they can position themselves to draft a kid. Bet that would go over just great. It was a good idea. And when it didn't work out you try it again. And again. At least you have a chance versus an overpriced vet who will get you mediocrity but no shot at the ultimate goal. The Vikings are not a QB away. No QB is going to make a playoff run with the worst defense in the entire league, not just the worst defense of playoff teams but the entire league. The Vikings have not let anybody good walk because of the QB contract. The drafts have been horrible, that's how you build a team. The GM'ing has also been horrible.... hanging on to safeties, LB, and RB at the expense of salary cap space should never happen. Have a really good LB, Safety, or RB? Trade them to a sucker for high draft picks.

Murph -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 11:48:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Murph quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: marty I agree 100% with Brad, and keeping Kirk is what will sabotage the team. It's NOT a good sign that Booth and Cine were hurt. I wonder what the % chance of bust is when a player misses most of their rookie season ? Did he sabotage the team in 2022 or not? Go back to when they signed him. The true sabotage has been the combination of Spielman and Zimmer in that they didn't build an oline or defense....still the problem 5 years later. As much as you are looking to assign him the scapegoat it is on the GM and Coach.......it is on Kwesi and KOC to get it done this offseason. I thought the team was in place when we traded for Kirk? He was supposed to be a big upgrade to Keenum and the missing piece to a team on the brink. He had a really good defense when he first got here, Diggs, young Thielen and Cook. Never-ending excuses for Kurt Not sure if the excuse was for Spielman or Zimmer or Kirk. Stability at QB was seen as the problem but you still have to add talent to the roster after getting the QB. 2018, 2019, 2021 drafts---horrible and more of a reason. Then we should have never paid top dollar to a QB if they team needed to rely on the next 3 drafts. The team must have needed much more than just a QB, would have been smarter to keep Keenum for a year, build up the rest of the team and let some other team be stuck with Mr. 500. or Mr. throw short of the sticks with the season on the line. We can't get rid of Cousins fast enough. Unfortunately we are stuck with him for another because of an idiotic team unfriendly contract we have with Mr. Big Bucks End of another Cousins rant, lol

David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 11:57:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall quote: ORIGINAL: David F. quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall How many teams thought tanking for Baker Mayfield Josh Rosen Sam Darnold Kyler Murray was a good idea? I doubt any will admit it now but I am sure some thought there was a can’t miss in that list. Walk into locker room and tell the team the plan is to suck beyond sucking so they can position themselves to draft a kid. Bet that would go over just great. It was a good idea. And when it didn't work out you try it again. And again. At least you have a chance versus an overpriced vet who will get you mediocrity but no shot at the ultimate goal. The Vikings are not a QB away. No QB is going to make a playoff run with the worst defense in the entire league, not just the worst defense of playoff teams but the entire league. The Vikings have not let anybody good walk because of the QB contract. The drafts have been horrible, that's how you build a team. The GM'ing has also been horrible.... hanging on to safeties, LB, and RB at the expense of salary cap space should never happen. Have a really good LB, Safety, or RB? Trade them to a sucker for high draft picks. I'm struggling to keep up with this conversation. Trying to find a top-10 QB and not giving up until you do is independent of current talent of defense, good drafting, bad drafting, hanging on to players too long, etc...

marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 12:03:14 PM)
Yes, Kirk DID sabotage the 2022 season, by not getting a TD in either of his last 2 drives, and especially not really trying to convert the last 4th down pass. The Vikings defensive coordinator made Kirk's job tough, and Kirk didn't rise to the occasion. I don't want 'stability' at QB anymore, I want chance for greatness. And they should keep trying to draft that.

Jeff Jesser -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/18/2023 12:11:02 PM)
Everyone is pretty much saying the same thing. We all know we're stuck with KC for 1 more year. We are fine at the skill positions even when we get rid of Cook/AT. Get one more piece to the OLine to build around Darrisaw and O'Neil. Spend the rest of the resources on the D and we worry about QBoTF next offseason. As been said, with this defense, it wouldn't matter if Mahomes forced a straight up trade for KC. He wouldn't win here. We'd have the #1 offense in the NFL and get bounced in the first round.

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