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marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 2:35:48 PM)
Yes, Kirk has a strong arm. I am debating between him and Jones, not certain whom I would choose.

Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 2:39:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens Every year that the Vikings hovered just either side of .500, there seemed to be those who would say that the Vikings were just handful of plays away from being a playoff team. This year the Vikings won 13 games and you could make the argument that the Vikings were several key plays away from being a 3 win team. I was at the Patriots game and in that one alone, the Vikings had great fortune. The referees missed a huge hold on Nwangwu's kick return for a TD. Ham had his arms around the man he was blocking and both hands were full of jersey. Nwangwu ran right past him as he was doing it. How the refs missed that one, I will never know. After that the Pats helped the Vikes game winning drive with two personal foul penalties. Why bring this up? You can't look to next year and say if they just make just an incremental improvement in certain areas, they will x amount of games and make the playoffs again. The Vikings could have an incrementally better team on paper next year and come away with half as many wins. They have to look at this in terms of what are the components of a real contender and how do we put that together. This defense is old, slow as molasses in January and has the wrong players for the scheme. The offense featured guys like Cook and Thielen who are visibly losing steps. The line continues to be held together with two good blockers, bailing wire and chewing gum. The long and short of it is that there are too many holes to fill in one off season. They need to start the process of a full rebuild now. Cut Thielen, Smith, Cook, Kendricks, Hicks, Ham +1 (I am more on the full rebuild on the def side as many of the cuts are on that side of the ball) May have to include not resigning Dalvin Tomlinson plus cutting/trading Hunter and ZED..... So who is left on defense? Who is any good on defense now? Asamoah, Evans, Cine, Booth, Bynum, Phillips, Jones, Lynch, Tonga, Metullus, Blacklock, Boyd, Bullard, Dye, Otomewo, Vilain, Wonnum, and Dantzler (may be gone too). That's my point. How far does all this money go when you need 6 or 8 starters on defense? S Cine and Bynum Metullus backup CB Evans and Booth (Dantzler, Boyd, Shelley) LB Dye LB Asamoah DL Phillips Tonga Bullard and Lynch Otomewo OLB Vilain/Wonnum Jones It isn't as bare as you are suggesting and it isn't much worse than the starters of 2022 before the draft, FA, and UDFA periods They have added CB and LB to future contracts already. That's even uglier than what I was picturing... Just because you like guys or know their names makes them starters? How many of those guys have an actual history of playing well as starters? On paper its significantly worse than 2022... I don't agree. I think the LB are better, faster for one. Jones and Wonnum can rush. Again that is before the draft, FA, and UDFA and trades. You can't be serious. Asamoah Dye an improvement over Kendricks Hunt? Last offseason, people in here (including you) were calling Kendricks near-elite and Hunt a solid FA value. Asamoah and Dye are not automatically better because the other guys looked bad this year. Booth, Cine? You have consistently over time made these kind of pronouncements ... We are a long way from knowing what the defense is going to look like going into camp but the line-up in your post would not only be 10 time worse than this year, it would be the first known suicide by defensive ineptitude.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 2:40:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens Every year that the Vikings hovered just either side of .500, there seemed to be those who would say that the Vikings were just handful of plays away from being a playoff team. This year the Vikings won 13 games and you could make the argument that the Vikings were several key plays away from being a 3 win team. I was at the Patriots game and in that one alone, the Vikings had great fortune. The referees missed a huge hold on Nwangwu's kick return for a TD. Ham had his arms around the man he was blocking and both hands were full of jersey. Nwangwu ran right past him as he was doing it. How the refs missed that one, I will never know. After that the Pats helped the Vikes game winning drive with two personal foul penalties. Why bring this up? You can't look to next year and say if they just make just an incremental improvement in certain areas, they will x amount of games and make the playoffs again. The Vikings could have an incrementally better team on paper next year and come away with half as many wins. They have to look at this in terms of what are the components of a real contender and how do we put that together. This defense is old, slow as molasses in January and has the wrong players for the scheme. The offense featured guys like Cook and Thielen who are visibly losing steps. The line continues to be held together with two good blockers, bailing wire and chewing gum. The long and short of it is that there are too many holes to fill in one off season. They need to start the process of a full rebuild now. Cut Thielen, Smith, Cook, Kendricks, Hicks, Ham +1 (I am more on the full rebuild on the def side as many of the cuts are on that side of the ball) May have to include not resigning Dalvin Tomlinson plus cutting/trading Hunter and ZED..... So who is left on defense? Who is any good on defense now? Asamoah, Evans, Cine, Booth, Bynum, Phillips, Jones, Lynch, Tonga, Metullus, Blacklock, Boyd, Bullard, Dye, Otomewo, Vilain, Wonnum, and Dantzler (may be gone too). That's my point. How far does all this money go when you need 6 or 8 starters on defense? S Cine and Bynum Metullus backup CB Evans and Booth (Dantzler, Boyd, Shelley) LB Dye LB Asamoah DL Phillips Tonga Bullard and Lynch Otomewo OLB Vilain/Wonnum Jones It isn't as bare as you are suggesting and it isn't much worse than the starters of 2022 before the draft, FA, and UDFA periods They have added CB and LB to future contracts already. That's even uglier than what I was picturing... Just because you like guys or know their names makes them starters? How many of those guys have an actual history of playing well as starters? On paper its significantly worse than 2022... I don't agree. I think the LB are better, faster for one. Jones and Wonnum can rush. Again that is before the draft, FA, and UDFA and trades. You can't be serious. Asamoah Dye an improvement over Kendricks Hunt? Last offseason, people in here (including you) were calling Kendricks near-elite and Hunt a solid FA value. Asamoah and Dye are not automatically better because the other guys looked bad this year. Booth, Cine? You have consistently over time made these kind of pronouncements ... We are a long way from knowing what the defense is going to look like going into camp but the line-up in your post would not only be 10 time worse than this year, it would be the first known suicide by defensive ineptitude. It changed in less than a year...you can see that neither are even near elite now...little to no drop off to Dye and the rookie. My opinion changed after the Philly game (Sanders), then verified with Dallas game (Pollard) GB game and finally the NYG game (Barkley). If you have a defense designed where he has to defend the middle of the field or cover RBs you are better off with a younger version.

marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 2:43:13 PM)
How can the defense be worse than last season ? PP made some plays and won games by putting in extra hours of game study. Take that away, could take 2 wins away. Zed played a large role in the 1st games, and has been often injured in his career. He gets hurt, or plays like the last 8 games most of the season (teams making more adjustments to him ?) IMPORTANT: playing fewer backup QBs, and a much tougher schedule, could make the defense worse, or appear to be worse. Duke getting hurt, and Smith still made a few plays, if Smith is released and his replacement makes fewer plays. But most signs should point upwards provided Donatell is replaced.

Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 2:45:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: marty I think we sabotaging by keeping Kirk. Other than an accurate passer, and durability, what other strengths does he have as a QB ? Do you realize he was pressured on 47% of his throws on Sunday (Jones was on 16%). What else is there (accuracy and durability are pretty much top of the list)--he has one of the strongest arms also? Jones was too busy avoiding pressure by gouging us with runs ... Yes the IOL was terrible but Cousins pressure numbers are always going to be inflated by holding onto the ball to long / lack of pocket presence / etc. Easier to compare a mastodon with a waterbug.

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 2:46:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marty Yes, Kirk has a strong arm. I am debating between him and Jones, not certain whom I would choose. One guy put his body on the line to win a playoff game. The other checked down on the most important play of the season, giving up on the season. Seems like a pretty easy choice to me.

David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 2:47:03 PM)
There was some posts earlier today regarding our defense and opposing QB's success against us. Surprisingly we were 21st in opposing QB rating allowed. Still bad - but better than we might have guessed. https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-average-team-passer-rating?date=2023-01-09 Also mentioned was a theoretical matchup between Kirko 'Short-of-the' Chains and the Vikings D. Obviously we can't see that one in real life but he DID in fact play against some of the teams that were further down the list than us. Namely Detroit twice, Chicago twice, Indy, Miami, and Arizona. We also played NYG and Washington who were 18th and 19th on the list. Lions Week 3: 24-41, 260 yds, 2TD 0INT Bears Week 5: 32-41, 296 yds, 1TD 1INT Dolphins Week 6: 20-30, 175 yds, 2TD 0INT Cardinals Week 7: 24-36, 232 yds, 2TD, 0INT Commanders Week 8: 22-40, 265 yds, 2TD 1INT Lions Week 13: 31-41, 425 yds, 2TD 0INT Colts Week 14: 34-54, 460 yds, 4TD 2INT Giants Week 15: 34-48, 299 yds, 3TD 0INT Bears Week 18? I think my week numbers are off: 17-20, 225 yds 1TD 0INT It looks to me like vs the Vikings D we could expect something like 24-32, 268 yds, 2TD and 0INT.

marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 2:47:06 PM)
Yes the defense is hurting with regards to personnel, and someone raised the question of how it could be bad with both Zimmer and Donatell, that it has to be personnel. Not true. I would agree, if either of those DCs had won a Super Bowl as a DC. Neither has shown they are effective as playoff defensive coordinators, both also had some embarrassingly bad playoff losses. And I think Donatell is WORSE than Zimmer.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 2:47:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: marty I think we sabotaging by keeping Kirk. Other than an accurate passer, and durability, what other strengths does he have as a QB ? Do you realize he was pressured on 47% of his throws on Sunday (Jones was on 16%). What else is there (accuracy and durability are pretty much top of the list)--he has one of the strongest arms also? Jones was too busy avoiding pressure by gouging us with runs ... Yes the IOL was terrible but Cousins pressure numbers are always going to be inflated by holding onto the ball to long / lack of pocket presence / etc. Easier to compare a mastodon with a waterbug. If you rewatched the game Kirk didn't hold onto the ball much throughout the game. Jones was a one read and run correct but there still wasn't pressure on him like Cousins.

marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 2:51:34 PM)
You have a point Brad, you're probably right, but let's see how Jones does next week, when he isn't facing an historically bad defense. Cousins did play well in the 3rd quarter, unusual, he started early. Then ran out of gas for the last 2 drives. The last play checkdown makes me believe Kirk either doesn't see things quickly (enough), or he just doesn't care all that much, doesn't have the strong desire to make it happen.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 2:53:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marty Yes the defense is hurting with regards to personnel, and someone raised the question of how it could be bad with both Zimmer and Donatell, that it has to be personnel. Not true. I would agree, if either of those DCs had won a Super Bowl as a DC. Neither has shown they are effective as playoff defensive coordinators, both also had some embarrassingly bad playoff losses. And I think Donatell is WORSE than Zimmer. What SB Def Cord is available? In my mind Flores would be a good option.

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 3:01:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marty You have a point Brad, you're probably right, but let's see how Jones does next week, when he isn't facing an historically bad defense. Cousins did play well in the 3rd quarter, unusual, he started early. Then ran out of gas for the last 2 drives. The last play checkdown makes me believe Kirk either doesn't see things quickly (enough), or he just doesn't care all that much, doesn't have the strong desire to make it happen. Once a guy starts checking down consistently, they value themselves more than the team. It reminds me of Robert Smith, who ran out of bounds on two consecutive plays during the NFC title game in 1998. He consistently put himself before the team. Other guys who checked down this year consistently. Matt Ryan, Tom Brady and Carson Wentz. Done, done and done.

Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 3:01:19 PM)
If we go with a 4-3, I believe we will need 4 LBs minimum as Dye and Asamoah would be all that remain (assuming we keep Dye).

marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 3:04:22 PM)
Def. Coordinator available next year: Vic Fangio. There are probably others, many that can be better for a playoff run than Zimmer or Donatell.

Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 3:07:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens Every year that the Vikings hovered just either side of .500, there seemed to be those who would say that the Vikings were just handful of plays away from being a playoff team. This year the Vikings won 13 games and you could make the argument that the Vikings were several key plays away from being a 3 win team. I was at the Patriots game and in that one alone, the Vikings had great fortune. The referees missed a huge hold on Nwangwu's kick return for a TD. Ham had his arms around the man he was blocking and both hands were full of jersey. Nwangwu ran right past him as he was doing it. How the refs missed that one, I will never know. After that the Pats helped the Vikes game winning drive with two personal foul penalties. Why bring this up? You can't look to next year and say if they just make just an incremental improvement in certain areas, they will x amount of games and make the playoffs again. The Vikings could have an incrementally better team on paper next year and come away with half as many wins. They have to look at this in terms of what are the components of a real contender and how do we put that together. This defense is old, slow as molasses in January and has the wrong players for the scheme. The offense featured guys like Cook and Thielen who are visibly losing steps. The line continues to be held together with two good blockers, bailing wire and chewing gum. The long and short of it is that there are too many holes to fill in one off season. They need to start the process of a full rebuild now. Cut Thielen, Smith, Cook, Kendricks, Hicks, Ham +1 (I am more on the full rebuild on the def side as many of the cuts are on that side of the ball) May have to include not resigning Dalvin Tomlinson plus cutting/trading Hunter and ZED..... So who is left on defense? Who is any good on defense now? Asamoah, Evans, Cine, Booth, Bynum, Phillips, Jones, Lynch, Tonga, Metullus, Blacklock, Boyd, Bullard, Dye, Otomewo, Vilain, Wonnum, and Dantzler (may be gone too). Not a single full season starter in that list, let alone a solid starter. So essentially a bunch of backups and total unprovens, with a few part-time starters from 2022 that were part of the problem. It shows the magnitude of the problem. Hope we sign Shelley.

Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 3:08:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marty Def. Coordinator available next year: Vic Fangio. There are probably others, many that can be better for a playoff run than Zimmer or Donatell. Playoff run? [:-]

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 3:08:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marty Def. Coordinator available next year: Vic Fangio. There are probably others, many that can be better for a playoff run than Zimmer or Donatell. This was the worst defense I've ever seen in the history of this franchise. You could bring in a fry cook from McDonalds and the worst you could do is drop one spot.

marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 3:13:29 PM)
You have a point Bill: playoff run ? I predicted before this past season the Vikings would not win less than 11 games, should have bet the season over 9 1/2 for them. I may be tempted to bet the under for them next season, as things stand right now, I don't see more than 8 wins with that schedule.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 3:16:31 PM)
Talk about resigning Bradbury...I would say hell no to that.

TJSweens -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 3:18:55 PM)
I inadvertently posted a ways back before I typed in the numbers. Here is the missing part. Cut Thielen, Smith, Cook, Kendricks, Hicks, Ham and save about $57M. Find a trade for Cousins after June 1 and save another $30M. If we are going to stick with a 3/4, they might as well trade Hunter and trade of cut Phillips. If they go back to 4/3 then move Zeke. These moves would clear $87 million in payroll. They also restructure O'Neal and save another $10 million on top of that. Target defensive youth and speed when they go shopping. There are under the radar players every year that step up for new teams. I would assume they would get some draft picks by moving Cousins along with either Hunter or Zeke. As I said before, it will mean a year of ugly. I don't think there is a viable alternative to living with a year of ugly. My fear with the competitive rebuild process is that it will just be a means to prolong mediocrity. There are some guys I hate to see go. I'm a long time Kendricks fan, but the guy I watched last Sunday was trying in vain to keep up with the play. Harry plays a position that allows compensate for lost speed due to his football IQ. Sadly its time to move on. They can't continue to competitively rebuild around guys like this.

Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 3:21:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer Talk about resigning Bradbury...I would say hell no to that. Maybe for about 4M per(not guaranteed) and he has to compete for the job with someone besides camp fodder.

The Happy Norseman -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 3:23:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bstinger A competitive rebuild might squeak into a playoff seed again, but won't contend for a SB. At some point we have to bottom out and make a real run at it. This is how Kwesi pulls off the "competitive rebuild". He'll keep the offense in tact and jettison the aging, overpriced vets on defense. Ideally replacing them with younger, more athletic players. The defense could be worse, and drop from 31st in the league to 32nd, and still be competitive if the offense carries the team. Hopefully, some of the young guys turn out to be pretty good players. Then in 2024 we have an excellent offense, a defense that isn't burdened by overpriced vets, and $120 million in cap space to work with. Superbowl window wide open.

Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 3:25:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman quote: ORIGINAL: bstinger A competitive rebuild might squeak into a playoff seed again, but won't contend for a SB. At some point we have to bottom out and make a real run at it. This is how Kwesi pulls off the "competitive rebuild". He'll keep the offense in tact and jettison the aging, overpriced vets on defense. Ideally replacing them with younger, more athletic players. The defense could be worse, and drop from 31st in the league to 32nd, and still be competitive if the offense carries the team. Hopefully, some of the young guys turn out to be pretty good players. Then in 2024 we have an excellent offense, a defense that isn't burdened by overpriced vets, and $120 million in cap space to work with. Superbowl window wide open. Dilly Dilly

TJSweens -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 3:26:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer Talk about resigning Bradbury...I would say hell no to that. Maybe for about 4M per and he has to compete for the job with someone besides camp fodder. I say no. Even under those terms he winds up being another Dakota Dozier, who makes his way onto the field.

Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 3:28:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens I inadvertently posted a ways back before I typed in the numbers. Here is the missing part. Cut Thielen, Smith, Cook, Kendricks, Hicks, Ham and save about $57M. Find a trade for Cousins after June 1 and save another $30M. If we are going to stick with a 3/4, they might as well trade Hunter and trade of cut Phillips. If they go back to 4/3 then move Zeke. These moves would clear $87 million in payroll. They also restructure O'Neal and save another $10 million on top of that. Target defensive youth and speed when they go shopping. There are under the radar players every year that step up for new teams. I would assume they would get some draft picks by moving Cousins along with either Hunter or Zeke. As I said before, it will mean a year of ugly. I don't think there is a viable alternative to living with a year of ugly. My fear with the competitive rebuild process is that it will just be a means to prolong mediocrity. There are some guys I hate to see go. I'm a long time Kendricks fan, but the guy I watched last Sunday was trying in vain to keep up with the play. Harry plays a position that allows compensate for lost speed due to his football IQ. Sadly its time to move on. They can't continue to competitively rebuild around guys like this. Are you sure about the post June 1st trade for Cousins? I think he still counts 40+ on the cap.

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