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fmaltes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 3:37:56 PM)

Also, for those that think we should tear everything up and go for the top draft pick slot to get a Franchise QB, it took Green Bay 22 years to get Brett Favre after Bart Star and it took Kansas City 46 years to between Len Dawson to Patrick Mahomes. Even with top five picks it is not a guarantee of getting the franchise QB. What might be more attainable is getting to the SB the same way the Ravens and Tampa Bay (Gruden) did.




Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 4:08:33 PM)

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ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

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ORIGINAL: ronhextall

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ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

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ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

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ORIGINAL: David Levine

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ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

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ORIGINAL: ronhextall

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ORIGINAL: bstinger

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ORIGINAL: ronhextall

If Rodgers is traded away the NFC North has the most underwhelming collection of QB's outside the NFC South.

I think the division is wide open if Rodgers leaves. I seriously doubt that equals "playoff run" by any of the teams but 9 wins will keep you in the mix all year.

Are you content with winning a week division? I'm not.

No, but it is what it is.
If you think the Vikings are going to release/trade everybody on the roster and shoot for 0-17 to get Caleb Williams be prepared to be disappointed.
After this season if they think Caleb Williams is the next Mahomes, I would have no issue trading away Jefferson and 3 or 4 future first round picks. I say this because I would trade 8-10 future first round picks for Patrick Mahomes. Mahomes has done fine without Hill.
Kwesi will be judged by his next QB and if he doesn’t get aggressive and/or hit a home run I will be disappointed. Drafting whoever is available and living with it for 3 years would be “very Speilman”.
The true elite QBs don’t need HOF WR. Manning Brady Mahomes seem to have done fine with WR that were barely average.


They didn't have an elite TE or weapons either? Manning (Clark, Harrison), Brady (Gronk, Edelman), Mahomes (Kelce).

You can trade away Jefferson who is 23 and ascending? You want to trade him on the other end of the curve like the Pack did as Devate is 30.


Apples and oranges. The Packers weren't trying to trade way up for a QB.


I don't see Caleb as the next Mahomes. I would rather draft McKee or Bill's guy in the middle rounds.



The point was clearly stated that if the regime thinks Caleb is the next Mahomes then he wouldn't have a problem trading JJ and more to move up in the draft.

Then another point was made that the packers example you made is immaterial as the two trades would end up being for entirely different purposes.

The above valid statements have nothing to do with you thinking Caleb is not the next Mahomes, so why even say that?


yes, that was my point. IF Kwesi thinks the next Mahomes is in the upcoming draft or 2024 draft he should get him, no matter what the cost is.

IMO it's impossible to say "That's too much to give up for Mahomes".

In 2017, the Chiefs gave up their First rd pick (#27 overall), their Third rd pick, as well as their 2018 First rd pick for Buffalo's first rd #10 pick. And drafted Mahomes. (Sound of cash register cha-chinging)

That year, Chicago gave up their First rd (#3 overall), Third rd and 4th rd selections as well as a Third rd pick in 2018 to move up one spot and draft Trubisky at #2. [sound of Chinese balloon deflating]

Both franchises knew without a doubt who they wanted, committed to it 'no matter what the cost,' and went for it. Although even after going all in, the Chiefs still had a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th rd pick that year. (The Bears still had a 2nd, two 4ths and a 5th)

IMO given Kwesi's previous draft, the state of the team and its resources ... not sure I want us maneuvering around for a QB this year. As critical as I think it is to improve the position. [not taking a QB with our first or second [that we don't have] ... IMO ensures Cousins through a drafted QB incubationary period in 2024 ... which would be hard for me to stomach]

If the regime likes a QB in the 15-25 range of the draft and he's still there at #23, please go for it. But trade up and augment our roster with a QB at #16 and a LB with the remaining pick in the 5th rd ... I don't think so.

Depressing.


It seemed the talk was about Caleb, ergo 2024. At least no specific names from the upcoming draft were mentioned.




Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 4:12:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fmaltes

Also, for those that think we should tear everything up and go for the top draft pick slot to get a Franchise QB, it took Green Bay 22 years to get Brett Favre after Bart Star and it took Kansas City 46 years to between Len Dawson to Patrick Mahomes. Even with top five picks it is not a guarantee of getting the franchise QB. What might be more attainable is getting to the SB the same way the Ravens and Tampa Bay (Gruden) did.


In other words go from a bottom feeder defense with not a single player to build around to one that is not only stacked but also has a couple of hall of famers?




Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 4:31:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: fmaltes

Also, for those that think we should tear everything up and go for the top draft pick slot to get a Franchise QB, it took Green Bay 22 years to get Brett Favre after Bart Star and it took Kansas City 46 years to between Len Dawson to Patrick Mahomes. Even with top five picks it is not a guarantee of getting the franchise QB. What might be more attainable is getting to the SB the same way the Ravens and Tampa Bay (Gruden) did.


In other words go from a bottom feeder defense with not a single player to build around to one that is not only stacked but also has a couple of hall of famers?


First step is cutting/trading the older starters on the defense for younger guys or picks.




Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 4:41:23 PM)

Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter
·
3m
Steelers’ assistant coach Brian Flores is accepting the Vikings’ defensive coordinator job, per source.




Chris Olson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 4:47:09 PM)

That is awesome about Flores...

he might be a one and done and on to HC elsewhere, but he is a damn good coach and we are lucky to get him

if he can turn the defense around, even more likely he gets another HC position, but he is the best available DC candidate imo




Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 5:00:28 PM)

Donnatell blitzes 19% of the time; Flores about 40%.




beo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 5:02:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Donnatell blitzes 19% of the time; Flores about 40%.


I believe it's literally one of the least blitzing DC vs one of the most blitzing DC (maybe the most?).




Todd M -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 5:38:34 PM)

My brain wants to be negative saying Flores will start something and walk away early without a care in the world. What I thi k I go with is...live in the moment with it. Look at next year next year.

Glad to see they weren't left holding the bag on one of the guys they wanted at least.




Bill Jandro -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 6:16:46 PM)

Heard the news on the radio. They stated that Flores has never been a DC? Just a position coach and ofcoarse was a HC for Miami.

Glad we hired him. He has great leadership qualities and hopefully reinstalls the 4-3 base.




David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 6:53:11 PM)

Brian Flores hired as Vikings' defensive coordinator
Kevin Seifert
ESPN Staff Writer


EAGAN, Minn. -- The Minnesota Vikings have hired Brian Flores as their new defensive coordinator, the team announced Monday, ending a monthlong search to replace the fired Ed Donatell.

Flores spent last season as the Pittsburgh Steelers' senior defensive assistant/linebackers coach after being fired as head coach by the Miami Dolphins following the 2021 season. He'll take over a defense that finished No. 31 in the NFL in yards allowed and is on the cusp of a significant personnel overhaul. He has a yearslong relationship with Vikings coach Kevin O'Connell, who was drafted by the New England Patriots as a quarterback in 2008 when Flores was a special teams assistant there.

After firing Donatell on Jan. 19, the Vikings quickly interviewed four candidates for the job: Ryan Nielsen, Sean Desai, Mike Pettine and Flores. Nielsen took the Atlanta Falcons' defensive coordinator job and Desai removed his name from consideration, but sources told ESPN all along that then-Denver Broncos defensive coordinator Ejiro Evero was their top candidate.

Evero and O'Connell spent two years on the Los Angeles Rams' coaching staff in 2020 and '21, and O'Connell hoped to reunite in 2023. But on Sunday, one day after the Broncos released Evero from his contract, he agreed to terms with the Carolina Panthers to be their defensive coordinator without taking an interview with the Vikings.

On Monday, the Vikings moved on to Flores, who also was a finalist for the Arizona Cardinals' open head-coaching job.

Flores joins the Vikings one year after suing the NFL and three teams -- the Dolphins, Denver Broncos and New York Giants -- alleging discrimination regarding his interview processes with Denver and New York and his firing by Miami. Longtime NFL assistants Steve Wilks and Ray Horton later joined the suit, which the NFL is attempting to move to arbitration. Flores also alleged the Dolphins tried to incentivize him to lose games and participate in illegal tampering; the league disciplined the Dolphins last summer for tampering violations of "unprecedented scope and severity," according to commissioner Roger Goodell.

It was not immediately clear how Flores' arrival would affect the scheme that O'Connell originally hired Donatell to install. Flores' defense in Miami was known for heavy blitzing -- it had the NFL's fourth-highest blitz rate from 2019 to '21 -- and man-to-man coverage in the secondary, two characteristics the Vikings largely stayed away from under Donatell.

O'Connell said after he was hired that he wanted an approach modeled after the 3-4 scheme popularized by longtime NFL coach Vic Fangio. Donatell was a longtime member of Fangio's staff in San Francisco, Chicago and Denver, but his version of the scheme proved predictable and often ineffective. It drew national scrutiny as early as Week 2, when ESPN analyst Troy Aikman called out the soft zone coverage it used as the Philadelphia Eagles moved the ball up and down the field in a 24-7 loss.

Donatell made clear that his core philosophy was to rely on his front four -- especially linebackers Za'Darius Smith and Danielle Hunter -- to apply enough pressure to allow the rest of the defense to sit back in zone coverage. But the Vikings' four-man rush managed a 23.9% pressure rate during the regular season, the ninth lowest in the league, and their shell zone left far too much room for easy yards.

After the defense allowed more than 400 yards for the fifth consecutive game last month against the Detroit Lions, O'Connell directed Donatell publicly and privately to make changes. Donatell did make some tweaks to the Vikings' pass-rush schemes, personnel usage and coverage types, but it did not lead to significant improvement.

Overall, the Vikings were in their nickel personnel group on 80.4% of snaps, the third-highest rate in the NFL, according to NFL Next Gen Stats. They were in split safeties on 50.4% of their defensive snaps, the league's fifth-highest rate. They used zone coverage at a rate of 79.4%, the fourth highest in the league, and they blitzed at the NFL's 12th-lowest rate (22.1%).

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35603880/source-brian-flores-vikings-defensive-coordinator




Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 6:58:17 PM)

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ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

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ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

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ORIGINAL: ronhextall

yes, that was my point. IF Kwesi thinks the next Mahomes is in the upcoming draft or 2024 draft he should get him, no matter what the cost is.

IMO it's impossible to say "That's too much to give up for Mahomes".

If the regime likes a QB in the 15-25 range of the draft and he's still there at #23, please go for it. But trade up and augment our roster with a QB at #16 and a LB with the remaining pick in the 5th rd ... I don't think so.


It seemed the talk was about Caleb, ergo 2024. At least no specific names from the upcoming draft were mentioned.

The conversation started with Caleb ... I was trying to address the notion of 'giving up whatever it takes' to get a QB you project as legitimate nfl starting material. In general.




David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 6:59:41 PM)

My guess is that now its more likely both Smiths are back and Peterson is gone.

ZED is a prototype pass rusher in Flores' schemes and Harrison would likely be used mostly in the box and blitzing - the 2 areas he still excels at.

I don't think Peterson is good enough in man coverage anymore.




Bill Jandro -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 7:44:47 PM)

In order to blitz a lot we will need at least one really good cb. That cb is currently not on our roster.

As much as we need a good shut down cb I'd much prefer DL/LB early in the draft.




Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 8:42:40 PM)

There was some mention of Devin Bush.

Shelley can cover also.

I think Dantzler can cover man to man. If healthy.




Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 9:15:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

My guess is that now its more likely both Smiths are back and Peterson is gone.

ZED is a prototype pass rusher in Flores' schemes and Harrison would likely be used mostly in the box and blitzing - the 2 areas he still excels at.

I don't think Peterson is good enough in man coverage anymore.

I think Metullus can give us that for a fraction of the price.




Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 9:17:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Olson

That is awesome about Flores...

he might be a one and done and on to HC elsewhere, but he is a damn good coach and we are lucky to get him

if he can turn the defense around, even more likely he gets another HC position, but he is the best available DC candidate imo

We get a 3rd rounder then.




marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 9:31:30 PM)

Zimmer is a great defensive mind and has always been a good defensive coordinator. He had shortcomings as a head coach but he is still respected in league circles.

Zimmer never made a deep playoff run as a defensive coordinator, nor did his team have a deep playoff run because of his defense while he was a head coach. Over-rated as a defensive mind.

I don't care about regular season success, I want playoff success.




beo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 9:38:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Olson

That is awesome about Flores...

he might be a one and done and on to HC elsewhere, but he is a damn good coach and we are lucky to get him

if he can turn the defense around, even more likely he gets another HC position, but he is the best available DC candidate imo

We get a 3rd rounder then.


You only get a 3rd compensatory if the coordinator has been with the team 2 years.

I could see Flores being here a couple years because of his lawsuit against the NFL.




marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 9:38:30 PM)

Also, for those that think we should tear everything up and go for the top draft pick slot to get a Franchise QB, it took Green Bay 22 years to get Brett Favre after Bart Star and it took Kansas City 46 years to between Len Dawson to Patrick Mahomes. Even with top five picks it is not a guarantee of getting the franchise QB. What might be more attainable is getting to the SB the same way the Ravens and Tampa Bay (Gruden) did.

Maybe you want to look at why they failed. Maybe they didn't try hard enough to get a franchise QB, or made mistakes in certain years where they could have gotten one.

The history arguments are also tiresome. People were saying in 1995 that the Vikings should switch back to an outdoor stadium because no dome team had ever won a Super Bowl.

Then a dome team won a Super Bowl (Indy), then another one did (Seattle). It was more because there was a small sample size of dome teams over short period of time. History means very little, and you can change the course of history by just doing things smarter.




marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 9:40:35 PM)

Like Bill said, good luck in getting this last year's defense to be like Tampa Bay's, or like the Raven's SB winners.

And then having Cousins also be simultaneously suddenly clutch in a string of playoff games.




marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 9:42:23 PM)

So if you had the combination of one of those historic defenses, along with the OL looking like a mid-90s Dallas OL, then Cousins makes enough plays to beat today's best QBs in playoff games.




marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 10:05:40 PM)

Happy New Defensive Coordinator Day !!!




Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/6/2023 10:45:03 PM)

Flores was New England's defensive playcaller during his final season coaching for the team, which concluded with a Super Bowl title in Super Bowl LIII. So Flores is kind of the reverse of what KOC was with the Rams in that he called the plays.

And I guess his hire will squelch any possible thought of tanking.




Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (2/7/2023 7:41:42 AM)

Key defenders set to hit Free Agency that played under Brian Flores

DL Larry Ogunjobi
DL Chris Wormley
DL Tyson Alualu
LB Devin Bush
LB Duke Riley
LB Elandon Roberts
CB Cameron Sutton
CB Nik Needham
S Terrell Edmunds
S Eric Rowe




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