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David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/24/2023 5:31:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ricky J We have some real issues over our picks that supposedly arent' working out but we'll take a 3rd over-all pick that SF supposedly doesn't want ... huh! I know that's a little unfair so, who do we let go to keep him on the roster? Hall.

kgdabom -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/24/2023 6:05:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David F. quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: Ricky J quote: ORIGINAL: David F. quote: ORIGINAL: thebigo quote: ORIGINAL: David F. What hock is doing is unofficially referred to as a “hold in”. It’s like a hold-out except you show up so you don’t incur any fines but you still make it clear that you’re not going to be available to play. He’s probably worth a huge contract. Why did we trade for him if we didn’t anticipate this? I’d like to know what number they’re arguing over. Not sure how faking an injury like vertigo anyone would expect that would increase their value His value is established. He wants an extension and fears the franchise tag. In reality he has reason to worry about it, doesn't he? I mean, cant the Vikes get 3 years out of him and he really can't do anything about it other than refuse to play? Since the Vikings have the franchise tag option how about Hock accepts a reasonable contract. If the tag is at 12 million and the Vikings offer 13.5 that seems like a nice compromise. Granted that the average annual value can be irrelevant depending on what the guaranteed money is, a contract averaging 13.5 million would put Hock at the 8th highest AAV, right between David Njoku and Dawson Knox. He's going to get more than that. Hock's contract is going to have to look A LOT like George Kittle's contract. Kittle got $75 million over 5 years with $40 million guaranteed. And considering that Kittle's contract was signed in 2020 we could easily add 20% to those numbers - say $90 million over 5 years with $50 million guaranteed. All that being said - Kittle put up way bigger stats than Hockenson - it's just that Kirk threw to him so damn much last year that Hock has never looked better at any point in his career. Hock has one very good half season. If he won't be reasonable franchise tag him for the next two years and let him go to get a comp pick or would we?

David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/24/2023 7:46:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: David F. quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: Ricky J quote: ORIGINAL: David F. quote: ORIGINAL: thebigo quote: ORIGINAL: David F. What hock is doing is unofficially referred to as a “hold in”. It’s like a hold-out except you show up so you don’t incur any fines but you still make it clear that you’re not going to be available to play. He’s probably worth a huge contract. Why did we trade for him if we didn’t anticipate this? I’d like to know what number they’re arguing over. Not sure how faking an injury like vertigo anyone would expect that would increase their value His value is established. He wants an extension and fears the franchise tag. In reality he has reason to worry about it, doesn't he? I mean, cant the Vikes get 3 years out of him and he really can't do anything about it other than refuse to play? Since the Vikings have the franchise tag option how about Hock accepts a reasonable contract. If the tag is at 12 million and the Vikings offer 13.5 that seems like a nice compromise. Granted that the average annual value can be irrelevant depending on what the guaranteed money is, a contract averaging 13.5 million would put Hock at the 8th highest AAV, right between David Njoku and Dawson Knox. He's going to get more than that. Hock's contract is going to have to look A LOT like George Kittle's contract. Kittle got $75 million over 5 years with $40 million guaranteed. And considering that Kittle's contract was signed in 2020 we could easily add 20% to those numbers - say $90 million over 5 years with $50 million guaranteed. All that being said - Kittle put up way bigger stats than Hockenson - it's just that Kirk threw to him so damn much last year that Hock has never looked better at any point in his career. Hock has one very good half season. If he won't be reasonable franchise tag him for the next two years and let him go to get a comp pick or would we? I took a look at his stats to see what his next best season was and it's easily 2020 with 67 catches for 723 yards and 6 TDs. Then something else caught my eye that is troubling. His 2022 stats. In seven games with the Lions he had 26 catches for 395 yards and 3 TDs. In 10 games with the Vikes he had 60 catches for 519 yards and also 3 TDs. The troublesome stat is that with the Lions he averaged 15.2 yards per catch. With the Vikes he averaged 8.6 yards. He's a checkdown target with us. We don't need to break the bank for a checkdown target and/or we need to start getting him the ball in space and/or further down the field.

Ricky J -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/24/2023 7:47:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: David F. quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: Ricky J quote: ORIGINAL: David F. quote: ORIGINAL: thebigo quote: ORIGINAL: David F. What hock is doing is unofficially referred to as a “hold in”. It’s like a hold-out except you show up so you don’t incur any fines but you still make it clear that you’re not going to be available to play. He’s probably worth a huge contract. Why did we trade for him if we didn’t anticipate this? I’d like to know what number they’re arguing over. Not sure how faking an injury like vertigo anyone would expect that would increase their value His value is established. He wants an extension and fears the franchise tag. In reality he has reason to worry about it, doesn't he? I mean, cant the Vikes get 3 years out of him and he really can't do anything about it other than refuse to play? Since the Vikings have the franchise tag option how about Hock accepts a reasonable contract. If the tag is at 12 million and the Vikings offer 13.5 that seems like a nice compromise. Granted that the average annual value can be irrelevant depending on what the guaranteed money is, a contract averaging 13.5 million would put Hock at the 8th highest AAV, right between David Njoku and Dawson Knox. He's going to get more than that. Hock's contract is going to have to look A LOT like George Kittle's contract. Kittle got $75 million over 5 years with $40 million guaranteed. And considering that Kittle's contract was signed in 2020 we could easily add 20% to those numbers - say $90 million over 5 years with $50 million guaranteed. All that being said - Kittle put up way bigger stats than Hockenson - it's just that Kirk threw to him so damn much last year that Hock has never looked better at any point in his career. Hock has one very good half season. If he won't be reasonable franchise tag him for the next two years and let him go to get a comp pick or would we? Maybe the Vikes are being unreasonable bc they can actually play hard ball if they want? (although I don't believe they would)

Richard Neussendorfer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/24/2023 9:50:41 PM)
Hell no to Murray. He's gonna be in the ice tub too much.

kgdabom -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/24/2023 10:41:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David F. quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: David F. quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: Ricky J quote: ORIGINAL: David F. quote: ORIGINAL: thebigo quote: ORIGINAL: David F. What hock is doing is unofficially referred to as a “hold in”. It’s like a hold-out except you show up so you don’t incur any fines but you still make it clear that you’re not going to be available to play. He’s probably worth a huge contract. Why did we trade for him if we didn’t anticipate this? I’d like to know what number they’re arguing over. Not sure how faking an injury like vertigo anyone would expect that would increase their value His value is established. He wants an extension and fears the franchise tag. In reality he has reason to worry about it, doesn't he? I mean, cant the Vikes get 3 years out of him and he really can't do anything about it other than refuse to play? Since the Vikings have the franchise tag option how about Hock accepts a reasonable contract. If the tag is at 12 million and the Vikings offer 13.5 that seems like a nice compromise. Granted that the average annual value can be irrelevant depending on what the guaranteed money is, a contract averaging 13.5 million would put Hock at the 8th highest AAV, right between David Njoku and Dawson Knox. He's going to get more than that. Hock's contract is going to have to look A LOT like George Kittle's contract. Kittle got $75 million over 5 years with $40 million guaranteed. And considering that Kittle's contract was signed in 2020 we could easily add 20% to those numbers - say $90 million over 5 years with $50 million guaranteed. All that being said - Kittle put up way bigger stats than Hockenson - it's just that Kirk threw to him so damn much last year that Hock has never looked better at any point in his career. Hock has one very good half season. If he won't be reasonable franchise tag him for the next two years and let him go to get a comp pick or would we? I took a look at his stats to see what his next best season was and it's easily 2020 with 67 catches for 723 yards and 6 TDs. Then something else caught my eye that is troubling. His 2022 stats. In seven games with the Lions he had 26 catches for 395 yards and 3 TDs. In 10 games with the Vikes he had 60 catches for 519 yards and also 3 TDs. The troublesome stat is that with the Lions he averaged 15.2 yards per catch. With the Vikes he averaged 8.6 yards. He's a checkdown target with us. We don't need to break the bank for a checkdown target and/or we need to start getting him the ball in space and/or further down the field. Good sleuthing DF. Appreciate the stats and they tell a tale.

Bill Jandro -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 7:24:34 AM)
I'd put Hock contract talks on hold. If Addison becomes what he appears to look like there isn't going to be a need for a high volume target TE. The offense may very well function better with Oliver in the lineup vs a TE who is a poor blocker.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 7:39:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro I'd put Hock contract talks on hold. If Addison becomes what he appears to look like there isn't going to be a need for a high volume target TE. The offense may very well function better with Oliver in the lineup vs a TE who is a poor blocker. I don't think you would call TJ a poor blocker; Oliver is one of the best. You need multiple TE's. I remember when we overpaid Rudolph 9 million a year and he was a 500 yard 9 TD guy then.....TJ runs circles around Kyle and is 2-3 years younger than Rudolph was at that stage. I would be willing to give him the Kmet contract. Even if we used is as a check down guy at times as we had JJ, AT, and KJ at that point....he still is the medium middle, deep middle threat.

ronhextall -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 8:21:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro I'd put Hock contract talks on hold. If Addison becomes what he appears to look like there isn't going to be a need for a high volume target TE. The offense may very well function better with Oliver in the lineup vs a TE who is a poor blocker. I tend to agree, Jefferson and the future of the QB position is way more important and screwing up JJ or the QB position will make who is playing TE meaningless.

Bill Jandro -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 8:43:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro I'd put Hock contract talks on hold. If Addison becomes what he appears to look like there isn't going to be a need for a high volume target TE. The offense may very well function better with Oliver in the lineup vs a TE who is a poor blocker. I tend to agree, Jefferson and the future of the QB position is way more important and screwing up JJ or the QB position will make who is playing TE meaningless. Add Darrisaw to the picture as well. We also need to reserve a little more than just chump change for the defense in future years.

Bill Jandro -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 8:51:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro I'd put Hock contract talks on hold. If Addison becomes what he appears to look like there isn't going to be a need for a high volume target TE. The offense may very well function better with Oliver in the lineup vs a TE who is a poor blocker. I don't think you would call TJ a poor blocker; Oliver is one of the best. You need multiple TE's. I remember when we overpaid Rudolph 9 million a year and he was a 500 yard 9 TD guy then.....TJ runs circles around Kyle and is 2-3 years younger than Rudolph was at that stage. I would be willing to give him the Kmet contract. Even if we used is as a check down guy at times as we had JJ, AT, and KJ at that point....he still is the medium middle, deep middle threat. Problem is Hock is seeking a needle moving TE contract which would probably be 18ml avv vs Kmet's 12.5. We already invested 7ml avv in Oliver. How much money do we want to tie up in TE's esp with a JJ and Darrisaw contract loomimg in the weeds?

Trekgeekscott -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 9:28:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro I'd put Hock contract talks on hold. If Addison becomes what he appears to look like there isn't going to be a need for a high volume target TE. The offense may very well function better with Oliver in the lineup vs a TE who is a poor blocker. I don't think you would call TJ a poor blocker; Oliver is one of the best. You need multiple TE's. I remember when we overpaid Rudolph 9 million a year and he was a 500 yard 9 TD guy then.....TJ runs circles around Kyle and is 2-3 years younger than Rudolph was at that stage. I would be willing to give him the Kmet contract. Even if we used is as a check down guy at times as we had JJ, AT, and KJ at that point....he still is the medium middle, deep middle threat. Problem is Hock is seeking a needle moving TE contract which would probably be 18ml avv vs Kmet's 12.5. We already invested 7ml avv in Oliver. How much money do we want to tie up in TE's esp with a JJ and Darrisaw contract loomimg in the weeds? It's shifting Theilen money to TJ really. We have WRs, a bunch of them, other that JJ very soon, at very cheap rates. TJ is effectively taking ATs passes now.

Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 11:23:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro I'd put Hock contract talks on hold. If Addison becomes what he appears to look like there isn't going to be a need for a high volume target TE. The offense may very well function better with Oliver in the lineup vs a TE who is a poor blocker. I don't think you would call TJ a poor blocker; Oliver is one of the best. You need multiple TE's. I remember when we overpaid Rudolph 9 million a year and he was a 500 yard 9 TD guy then.....TJ runs circles around Kyle and is 2-3 years younger than Rudolph was at that stage. I would be willing to give him the Kmet contract. Even if we used is as a check down guy at times as we had JJ, AT, and KJ at that point....he still is the medium middle, deep middle threat. Problem is Hock is seeking a needle moving TE contract which would probably be 18ml avv vs Kmet's 12.5. We already invested 7ml avv in Oliver. How much money do we want to tie up in TE's esp with a JJ and Darrisaw contract loomimg in the weeds? It's shifting Theilen money to TJ really. We have WRs, a bunch of them, other that JJ very soon, at very cheap rates. TJ is effectively taking ATs passes now. I thought Osborn was usurping Thielen's role ... then we used our #1 pick NOT on a defensive player ... but on another WR to improve on both Osborn and Thielen's production. At least long term. Besides the fact that, as David F. has already pointed out, we simply haven't used Hock as a downfield target. The Giants game might have turned out differently. Maybe Oliver will free up Hock's role a bit ... that remains to be seen.

ratoppenheimer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 11:27:35 AM)
. . kwesi overpaid oliver.... we can keep hockenson for the next two seasons for $9mm + $12mm = $21mm, or $10.5mm/yr.... if we figure he's worth $15mm/yr after that, we should offer him a four-year deal at $51mm, with a $21mm signing bonus and $36mm guaranteed.... $21mm /4 = $5.25mm/yr for the signing bonus, and then salaries of $1mm, $3mm, $11mm, and $15mm.... cap hits: 2023 - $6.25mm 2024 - $8.25mm 2025 - $16.25mm 2026 - $20.25mm we can cut him before the 2026 season with a $5.25mm dead cap....

Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 11:39:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro I'd put Hock contract talks on hold. If Addison becomes what he appears to look like there isn't going to be a need for a high volume target TE. The offense may very well function better with Oliver in the lineup vs a TE who is a poor blocker. I don't think you would call TJ a poor blocker; Oliver is one of the best. You need multiple TE's. I remember when we overpaid Rudolph 9 million a year and he was a 500 yard 9 TD guy then.....TJ runs circles around Kyle and is 2-3 years younger than Rudolph was at that stage. I would be willing to give him the Kmet contract. Even if we used is as a check down guy at times as we had JJ, AT, and KJ at that point....he still is the medium middle, deep middle threat. Problem is Hock is seeking a needle moving TE contract which would probably be 18ml avv vs Kmet's 12.5. We already invested 7ml avv in Oliver. How much money do we want to tie up in TE's esp with a JJ and Darrisaw contract loomimg in the weeds? Excellent point. Just how much cap % are we going dedicate to the TE position? Before taking on the serious money for QB, LT, superstar WR, or any solid defensive player worthy of more than a two year contract. Maybe KOC is a genius who has cracked the code of modern nfl defenses ... we simply rain TEs on their butts. Maybe this is all blown out of proportion, Hock has a soar back and we sign him in the 5-10 range for TEs and move forward quietly.

Ricky J -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 11:41:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer . . kwesi overpaid oliver.... we can keep hockenson for the next two seasons for $9mm + $12mm = $21mm, or $10.5mm/yr.... if we figure he's worth $15mm/yr after that, we should offer him a four-year deal at $51mm, with a $21mm signing bonus and $36mm guaranteed.... $21mm /4 = $5.25mm/yr for the signing bonus, and then salaries of $1mm, $3mm, $11mm, and $15mm.... cap hits: 2023 - $6.25mm 2024 - $8.25mm 2025 - $16.25mm 2026 - $20.25mm we can cut him before the 2026 season with a $5.25mm dead cap.... 1. will his back mysteriously still be hurt if he's not signed by 9/10? 2. will he sign the tag? (obviously Im stealing this from the Twitter pros but the longer this goes on the more it makes me wonder what this rural Iowa boy is capable of)

kgdabom -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 12:04:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ricky J quote: ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer . . kwesi overpaid oliver.... we can keep hockenson for the next two seasons for $9mm + $12mm = $21mm, or $10.5mm/yr.... if we figure he's worth $15mm/yr after that, we should offer him a four-year deal at $51mm, with a $21mm signing bonus and $36mm guaranteed.... $21mm /4 = $5.25mm/yr for the signing bonus, and then salaries of $1mm, $3mm, $11mm, and $15mm.... cap hits: 2023 - $6.25mm 2024 - $8.25mm 2025 - $16.25mm 2026 - $20.25mm we can cut him before the 2026 season with a $5.25mm dead cap.... 1. will his back mysteriously still be hurt if he's not signed by 9/10? 2. will he sign the tag? (obviously Im stealing this from the Twitter pros but the longer this goes on the more it makes me wonder what this rural Iowa boy is capable of) The tag isn't until next year. I'll worry about that one when we get to it.

kgdabom -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 12:05:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer . . kwesi overpaid oliver.... we can keep hockenson for the next two seasons for $9mm + $12mm = $21mm, or $10.5mm/yr.... if we figure he's worth $15mm/yr after that, we should offer him a four-year deal at $51mm, with a $21mm signing bonus and $36mm guaranteed.... $21mm /4 = $5.25mm/yr for the signing bonus, and then salaries of $1mm, $3mm, $11mm, and $15mm.... cap hits: 2023 - $6.25mm 2024 - $8.25mm 2025 - $16.25mm 2026 - $20.25mm we can cut him before the 2026 season with a $5.25mm dead cap.... Everything I hear about Oliver he's worth that contract and if we decide to move on from Hock it will seem like a genius move.

Ricky J -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 12:15:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: Ricky J quote: ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer . . kwesi overpaid oliver.... we can keep hockenson for the next two seasons for $9mm + $12mm = $21mm, or $10.5mm/yr.... if we figure he's worth $15mm/yr after that, we should offer him a four-year deal at $51mm, with a $21mm signing bonus and $36mm guaranteed.... $21mm /4 = $5.25mm/yr for the signing bonus, and then salaries of $1mm, $3mm, $11mm, and $15mm.... cap hits: 2023 - $6.25mm 2024 - $8.25mm 2025 - $16.25mm 2026 - $20.25mm we can cut him before the 2026 season with a $5.25mm dead cap.... 1 (this year). will his back mysteriously still be hurt if he's not signed by 9/10? 2 (next year). will he sign the tag? (obviously Im stealing this from the Twitter pros but the longer this goes on the more it makes me wonder what this rural Iowa boy is capable of) The tag isn't until next year. I'll worry about that one when we get to it. of course

Ricky J -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 3:14:30 PM)
Vikings sign CB Jameson Houston, waive T Chim Okorafor.

Trekgeekscott -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 3:20:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ricky J Vikings sign CB Jameson Houston, waive T Chim Okorafor. Chim chimminy chim chiminy chim chim cheree a Sweep is as lucky as lucky can be...

kgdabom -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 7:10:29 PM)
Trey Lance traded to Dallas. Thank you Cowpukes. [:'(][:D]

Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 7:34:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom Trey Lance traded to Dallas. Thank you Cowpukes. [:'(][:D] I would love to have Lance over Hall as a project ... much higher cieling IMO ... just not for a 4th rd pick at this point (as its being reported by nfl.com). I give SF credit for quickly course correcting (although they got ridiculously lucky with Purdy). I give Dallas credit for gambling on a project at QB with MAYBE some ceiling. Certainly more than the usual 1 out of 1 million chance late rd draft pick.

Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 8:04:39 PM)
2 players that got some pre-draft pining from me that may be on the trade/chop block (nfl.com) ste Gs Ben Cleveland and Kendrick Green. I was wrong about them but they too, like Lance, may benefit from a new environment. Would love to take a stab at a G/C backup type. We seem to be avoiding IOL like the covid.

Ricky J -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/25/2023 8:09:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom Trey Lance traded to Dallas. Thank you Cowpukes. [:'(][:D] I would love to have Lance over Hall as a project ... much higher cieling IMO ... just not for a 4th rd pick at this point (as its being reported by nfl.com). I give SF credit for quickly course correcting (although they got ridiculously lucky with Purdy). I give Dallas credit for gambling on a project at QB with MAYBE some ceiling. Certainly more than the usual 1 out of 1 million chance late rd draft pick. I was actually disappointed to see the trade to D myself.

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