quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

You do excuse their foolishness because their ancestors were beaten down and had their land stolen, so I guess they have that going for them

He didn't say they were foolish at all. Or implied it in anyway, or condescended to anyone. You're bringing that in on your own. I've known black people who would fight to the death if you called them a coon, and others that would shrug and walk away. That doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong, one foolish and one not. Native Americans aren't any different, different people react differently.

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

First, let me say that I would never name a team Redskins and do not like the name one bit.

However, my Native American friend is a big Redskins fan BECAUSE of the name/mascot. The Raiders are the most popular team for Natives in the area I grew up in, but the Redskins are probably the second most popular team and I would assume it is the name and mascot they like.

Also, I have never heard Redskin used as a slur. It is nothing even vaguely like the N word, at least in my experience. When people would put down Natives, I would hear words like "drunk lazy Indian", but the word Indian was not a slur, it was obviously the adjectives preceding it that were the slams.

The driving force behind wanting the name Redskins changed is political correctness. This is fine by me as I think it is a very politically incorrect name, but lets not pretend that most Natives are all broken up about this name, because I really do not think that is accurate. Many actually like it. [:-]

Beat a group of people down, over and over. Steal their land and break treaties that you authored. I'm not at all surprised that the remaining Native Americans don't give a shit about the name of a football team. Quite likely they have more important things to worry about.

How can right vs. wrong be so cloudy? How can our history be so selectively recalled?

As a nation, we have a relatively short history. Some of our history is great, and we should be proud. Some of our history is shameful.
Time to move on and if we have to error, lets error on the side of right. The side of human beings.

If only all of us could spend just one day in the shoes of our enemy.

I know you mean well, but this post comes across condescending to people like my friend and Hagar's wife that do not share your good sense in right and wrong to be as offended as you are.

You do excuse their foolishness because their ancestors were beaten down and had their land stolen, so I guess they have that going for them.

However, I do agree that Redskins is pretty hard to defend at any level. I asked my friend about this and he pointed out that most Americans would not even think of Natives on a regular basis if not for some sports teams names. That is probably true, although it could be accomplished without using the lame Redskins name.



When looking at history, I do not start at 1776. Humans have an amazingly ugly and brutal history on every continent. Win a war and take everything you can, burn what you cannot take, enslave or slaughter the men and rape and/or enslave the women. Every other nation or group was a potential threat or someone to be conquered. Looking at any nation's or region's history and you have to conclude that all of us have ancestors that probably did something very, very bad at one point in time.

I am proud that the US and western democracies have moved humanity from a place where brutalizing your enemy, a minority group or the disenfranchised was common place to a point where the very name Redskins on a football team is cause for alarm, concern and disdain.

We can dwell on American misdeeds or revel in the fact that in our relatively short history, the US, and their UK allies, have been the main driving force for making the world as free and fair as it is today. This is not to say that there are not still injustices in the world or missteps we have taken as a country, but make no mistake about it, for as messed up and lame as some of our history is, our country is one of the good guys of history.

Now maybe that is a low bar historically speaking, but we have helped raise the bar so that standards will be much higher now and in the future.


And I am proud to be an American!! [sm=thrasher.gif]


Sorry, got carried away there. :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

First, let me say that I would never name a team Redskins and do not like the name one bit.

However, my Native American friend is a big Redskins fan BECAUSE of the name/mascot. The Raiders are the most popular team for Natives in the area I grew up in, but the Redskins are probably the second most popular team and I would assume it is the name and mascot they like.

Also, I have never heard Redskin used as a slur. It is nothing even vaguely like the N word, at least in my experience. When people would put down Natives, I would hear words like "drunk lazy Indian", but the word Indian was not a slur, it was obviously the adjectives preceding it that were the slams.

The driving force behind wanting the name Redskins changed is political correctness. This is fine by me as I think it is a very politically incorrect name, but lets not pretend that most Natives are all broken up about this name, because I really do not think that is accurate. Many actually like it. [:-]

Beat a group of people down, over and over. Steal their land and break treaties that you authored. I'm not at all surprised that the remaining Native Americans don't give a shit about the name of a football team. Quite likely they have more important things to worry about.

How can right vs. wrong be so cloudy? How can our history be so selectively recalled?

As a nation, we have a relatively short history. Some of our history is great, and we should be proud. Some of our history is shameful.
Time to move on and if we have to error, lets error on the side of right. The side of human beings.

If only all of us could spend just one day in the shoes of our enemy.

I know you mean well, but this post comes across condescending to people like my friend and Hagar's wife that do not share your good sense in right and wrong to be as offended as you are.

You do excuse their foolishness because their ancestors were beaten down and had their land stolen, so I guess they have that going for them.

However, I do agree that Redskins is pretty hard to defend at any level. I asked my friend about this and he pointed out that most Americans would not even think of Natives on a regular basis if not for some sports teams names. That is probably true, although it could be accomplished without using the lame Redskins name.



When looking at history, I do not start at 1776. Humans have an amazingly ugly and brutal history on every continent. Win a war and take everything you can, burn what you cannot take, enslave or slaughter the men and rape and/or enslave the women. Every other nation or group was a potential threat or someone to be conquered. Looking at any nation's or region's history and you have to conclude that all of us have ancestors that probably did something very, very bad at one point in time.

I am proud that the US and western democracies have moved humanity from a place where brutalizing your enemy, a minority group or the disenfranchised was common place to a point where the very name Redskins on a football team is cause for alarm, concern and disdain.

We can dwell on American misdeeds or revel in the fact that in our relatively short history, the US, and their UK allies, have been the main driving force for making the world as free and fair as it is today. This is not to say that there are not still injustices in the world or missteps we have taken as a country, but make no mistake about it, for as messed up and lame as some of our history is, our country is one of the good guys of history.

Now maybe that is a low bar historically speaking, but we have helped raise the bar so that standards will be much higher now and in the future.


And I am proud to be an American!! [sm=thrasher.gif]


Sorry, got carried away there. :)

Easily the post with the best perspective on this.

I hear people talk about how horrible the U.S. is due to the recent schools shootings etc. and what SEEMS to be an exponential increase in depravity overall (an impression that is mainly media/internet driven). While these are horrible, they pale to the atrocities we've seen historically, both here and abroad. In fact atrocities on a much greater scale continue occurring in many places almost on a daily basis in certain parts of the world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

First, let me say that I would never name a team Redskins and do not like the name one bit.

However, my Native American friend is a big Redskins fan BECAUSE of the name/mascot. The Raiders are the most popular team for Natives in the area I grew up in, but the Redskins are probably the second most popular team and I would assume it is the name and mascot they like.

Also, I have never heard Redskin used as a slur. It is nothing even vaguely like the N word, at least in my experience. When people would put down Natives, I would hear words like "drunk lazy Indian", but the word Indian was not a slur, it was obviously the adjectives preceding it that were the slams.

The driving force behind wanting the name Redskins changed is political correctness. This is fine by me as I think it is a very politically incorrect name, but lets not pretend that most Natives are all broken up about this name, because I really do not think that is accurate. Many actually like it. [:-]

Beat a group of people down, over and over. Steal their land and break treaties that you authored. I'm not at all surprised that the remaining Native Americans don't give a shit about the name of a football team. Quite likely they have more important things to worry about.

How can right vs. wrong be so cloudy? How can our history be so selectively recalled?

As a nation, we have a relatively short history. Some of our history is great, and we should be proud. Some of our history is shameful.
Time to move on and if we have to error, lets error on the side of right. The side of human beings.

If only all of us could spend just one day in the shoes of our enemy.

I know you mean well, but this post comes across condescending to people like my friend and Hagar's wife that do not share your good sense in right and wrong to be as offended as you are.

You do excuse their foolishness because their ancestors were beaten down and had their land stolen, so I guess they have that going for them.

However, I do agree that Redskins is pretty hard to defend at any level. I asked my friend about this and he pointed out that most Americans would not even think of Natives on a regular basis if not for some sports teams names. That is probably true, although it could be accomplished without using the lame Redskins name.



When looking at history, I do not start at 1776. Humans have an amazingly ugly and brutal history on every continent. Win a war and take everything you can, burn what you cannot take, enslave or slaughter the men and rape and/or enslave the women. Every other nation or group was a potential threat or someone to be conquered. Looking at any nation's or region's history and you have to conclude that all of us have ancestors that probably did something very, very bad at one point in time.

I am proud that the US and western democracies have moved humanity from a place where brutalizing your enemy, a minority group or the disenfranchised was common place to a point where the very name Redskins on a football team is cause for alarm, concern and disdain.

We can dwell on American misdeeds or revel in the fact that in our relatively short history, the US, and their UK allies, have been the main driving force for making the world as free and fair as it is today. This is not to say that there are not still injustices in the world or missteps we have taken as a country, but make no mistake about it, for as messed up and lame as some of our history is, our country is one of the good guys of history.

Now maybe that is a low bar historically speaking, but we have helped raise the bar so that standards will be much higher now and in the future.


And I am proud to be an American!! [sm=thrasher.gif]


Sorry, got carried away there. :)

Easily the post with the best perspective on this.

I hear people talk about how horrible the U.S. is due to the recent schools shootings etc. and what SEEMS to be an exponential increase in depravity overall (an impression that is mainly media/internet driven). While these are horrible, they pale to the atrocities we've seen historically, both here and abroad. In fact atrocities on a much greater scale continue occurring in many places almost on a daily basis in certain parts of the world.

But we're supposed to get better. Right? One failed shoe-bomber and we all take our shoes off before boarding a flight. 40+ school shootings and 'DON'T TAKE MUH GUNZ OR I'LL KEEEEEL U!!!!!1!' I'm proud of the USA too, but I wish we'd stop killing the shit out of every last 'terrorist' with drones. It's deplorable. We're not getting better. We're the lead player in the killing game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

'terrorist' was in quotes to mean that we have a pretty loose definition. So, no, I don't mean to let them kill us and then turn the other cheek.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynn G.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Who cares more, Native Americans or white guilt Americans?


With poverty, substance abuse, schooling atrocities...is it on their list even?


You tell me that Native Americans, generally, HATE any reference to the Washington Redskins and I'll accept that.

Should have never been done but does it really matter now?

I can only speak for people that I know and have asked. My wife is slightly less than 50% native American. A combination of Potawatomi and Blackfoot, but, a bit more Potawatomi. Her dad was born on the Potawatomi reservation and has free housing, medical services and other services if he chooses to take advantage of them by living on the reservation. These are also available to my wife , my children and even my grandkids if any of them ever wanted to take advantage of them someday. I just asked my wife right now and have asked my father in law several times over the years about being offended by the Redskins name. The answer has always been that they could care less and it doesn't bother them at all. They just consider themselves Americans and wish other people could just get over the past and move on with their lives the way they have.

That's a healthy way to view life. But - this is up to you obviously - ask her how she would feel if someone decided they would start referring to her, personally, whenever they saw here, as a redskin. Maybe it's the same answer, but for many it's not. I totally get why native Americans don't worry about this, especially if they aren't fans of the team or the NFL. Most of us have enough to worry about without making this a cause, but at the same time, if a new franchise were started we wouldn't put up with 'the blackies' or the 'wetbacks' or the 'slanteyes'. It's not on a par with world hunger, or even putting food on your kid's table, but at this point, with so many people asking the owner to change it, it's a no brainer.

Good idea Prescott. She's asleep now and I'm on my way to bed, but, I will ask her that tomorrow and let you know what she says. She wondered why I was asking about it earlier this evening and I said that it's been in the news recently again. I know that friends of hers have called her Pocahontas occasionally in a joking manner and she laughs and tells them that she is an Indian princess, which she technically is because of her bloodlines. I'm curious what she'll say about it if it were a name given to a team today, so I'll let you know. On a less serious note if we start a new franchise I'm good with Beer Guzzling Krauts. Being one, I think we could kick ass.

Prescott, I asked my wife about someone calling her redskin continually as a way to demean her and she just laughed and said basically that she couldn't care less because her skin isn't red. When I pressed her
a little more on it she said she might say something like well my people were here first you thieving bastards. She was laughing out loud at that point. I also asked about making the Redskins change their name and she that that was asinine. It's been their name forever and people should get over it and worry about more important things than a perceived slight that they probably never even thought about until some activist group told them what they should think about it. I also asked her if there had never been a team called the Redskins and someone wanted to start a new team with that name should they be allowed to. She doesn't consider redskin to be racist but said that anyone trying to start a new team with that name would be an idiot.

I appreciate getting the point of view of someone with Native American heritage. I would disagree with her characterization that many people probably never thought about it until some activist group told them what they should think. Hearing racial slurs like redskin and all of the others that have been listed in previous posts gives a visceral reaction to millions of people who have done even a little bit of reading or listening on the topic. It doesn't take an activist group to evolve to that level of empathy.

Again - proof is in the words of the defenders. When they refer to the people affected as "Native Americans" it shows that even those folks won't use the term "redskin" because they know EXACTLY how bad that sounds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Who cares more, Native Americans or white guilt Americans?


With poverty, substance abuse, schooling atrocities...is it on their list even?


You tell me that Native Americans, generally, HATE any reference to the Washington Redskins and I'll accept that.

Should have never been done but does it really matter now?

I can only speak for people that I know and have asked. My wife is slightly less than 50% native American. A combination of Potawatomi and Blackfoot, but, a bit more Potawatomi. Her dad was born on the Potawatomi reservation and has free housing, medical services and other services if he chooses to take advantage of them by living on the reservation. These are also available to my wife , my children and even my grandkids if any of them ever wanted to take advantage of them someday. I just asked my wife right now and have asked my father in law several times over the years about being offended by the Redskins name. The answer has always been that they could care less and it doesn't bother them at all. They just consider themselves Americans and wish other people could just get over the past and move on with their lives the way they have.

That's a healthy way to view life. But - this is up to you obviously - ask her how she would feel if someone decided they would start referring to her, personally, whenever they saw here, as a redskin. Maybe it's the same answer, but for many it's not. I totally get why native Americans don't worry about this, especially if they aren't fans of the team or the NFL. Most of us have enough to worry about without making this a cause, but at the same time, if a new franchise were started we wouldn't put up with 'the blackies' or the 'wetbacks' or the 'slanteyes'. It's not on a par with world hunger, or even putting food on your kid's table, but at this point, with so many people asking the owner to change it, it's a no brainer.

Good idea Prescott. She's asleep now and I'm on my way to bed, but, I will ask her that tomorrow and let you know what she says. She wondered why I was asking about it earlier this evening and I said that it's been in the news recently again. I know that friends of hers have called her Pocahontas occasionally in a joking manner and she laughs and tells them that she is an Indian princess, which she technically is because of her bloodlines. I'm curious what she'll say about it if it were a name given to a team today, so I'll let you know. On a less serious note if we start a new franchise I'm good with Beer Guzzling Krauts. Being one, I think we could kick ass.

Same here. And those are the ones (like 'fighting irish') that get brought up, however they're slightly positive, and not quite comparable. More like "goose stepping krauts" or maybe 'gassing germans' or 'drunken irish' 'stupid pollack'. Redskins just doesn't have any positive connotations. It's maybe not quite like calling a black person the n word, but it's pretty close to calling the vietnamese gooks, or chinese chinks. No reason for it. Guilt or no guilt.

I'm also part Irish. We're not all drunken.

Just part of the time. [8D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Who cares more, Native Americans or white guilt Americans?


With poverty, substance abuse, schooling atrocities...is it on their list even?


You tell me that Native Americans, generally, HATE any reference to the Washington Redskins and I'll accept that.

Should have never been done but does it really matter now?

I can only speak for people that I know and have asked. My wife is slightly less than 50% native American. A combination of Potawatomi and Blackfoot, but, a bit more Potawatomi. Her dad was born on the Potawatomi reservation and has free housing, medical services and other services if he chooses to take advantage of them by living on the reservation. These are also available to my wife , my children and even my grandkids if any of them ever wanted to take advantage of them someday. I just asked my wife right now and have asked my father in law several times over the years about being offended by the Redskins name. The answer has always been that they could care less and it doesn't bother them at all. They just consider themselves Americans and wish other people could just get over the past and move on with their lives the way they have.

That's a healthy way to view life. But - this is up to you obviously - ask her how she would feel if someone decided they would start referring to her, personally, whenever they saw here, as a redskin. Maybe it's the same answer, but for many it's not. I totally get why native Americans don't worry about this, especially if they aren't fans of the team or the NFL. Most of us have enough to worry about without making this a cause, but at the same time, if a new franchise were started we wouldn't put up with 'the blackies' or the 'wetbacks' or the 'slanteyes'. It's not on a par with world hunger, or even putting food on your kid's table, but at this point, with so many people asking the owner to change it, it's a no brainer.

Good idea Prescott. She's asleep now and I'm on my way to bed, but, I will ask her that tomorrow and let you know what she says. She wondered why I was asking about it earlier this evening and I said that it's been in the news recently again. I know that friends of hers have called her Pocahontas occasionally in a joking manner and she laughs and tells them that she is an Indian princess, which she technically is because of her bloodlines. I'm curious what she'll say about it if it were a name given to a team today, so I'll let you know. On a less serious note if we start a new franchise I'm good with Beer Guzzling Krauts. Being one, I think we could kick ass.

Same here. And those are the ones (like 'fighting irish') that get brought up, however they're slightly positive, and not quite comparable. More like "goose stepping krauts" or maybe 'gassing germans' or 'drunken irish' 'stupid pollack'. Redskins just doesn't have any positive connotations. It's maybe not quite like calling a black person the n word, but it's pretty close to calling the vietnamese gooks, or chinese chinks. No reason for it. Guilt or no guilt.

I'm also part Irish. We're not all drunken.

Exactly. So you wouldn't personally be offended if that was a name or logo, since it doesn't apply to you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

First, let me say that I would never name a team Redskins and do not like the name one bit.

However, my Native American friend is a big Redskins fan BECAUSE of the name/mascot. The Raiders are the most popular team for Natives in the area I grew up in, but the Redskins are probably the second most popular team and I would assume it is the name and mascot they like.

Also, I have never heard Redskin used as a slur. It is nothing even vaguely like the N word, at least in my experience. When people would put down Natives, I would hear words like "drunk lazy Indian", but the word Indian was not a slur, it was obviously the adjectives preceding it that were the slams.

The driving force behind wanting the name Redskins changed is political correctness. This is fine by me as I think it is a very politically incorrect name, but lets not pretend that most Natives are all broken up about this name, because I really do not think that is accurate. Many actually like it. [:-]

Beat a group of people down, over and over. Steal their land and break treaties that you authored. I'm not at all surprised that the remaining Native Americans don't give a shit about the name of a football team. Quite likely they have more important things to worry about.

How can right vs. wrong be so cloudy? How can our history be so selectively recalled?

As a nation, we have a relatively short history. Some of our history is great, and we should be proud. Some of our history is shameful.
Time to move on and if we have to error, lets error on the side of right. The side of human beings.

If only all of us could spend just one day in the shoes of our enemy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

First, let me say that I would never name a team Redskins and do not like the name one bit.

However, my Native American friend is a big Redskins fan BECAUSE of the name/mascot. The Raiders are the most popular team for Natives in the area I grew up in, but the Redskins are probably the second most popular team and I would assume it is the name and mascot they like.

Also, I have never heard Redskin used as a slur. It is nothing even vaguely like the N word, at least in my experience. When people would put down Natives, I would hear words like "drunk lazy Indian", but the word Indian was not a slur, it was obviously the adjectives preceding it that were the slams.

The driving force behind wanting the name Redskins changed is political correctness. This is fine by me as I think it is a very politically incorrect name, but lets not pretend that most Natives are all broken up about this name, because I really do not think that is accurate. Many actually like it. [:-]

quote:

Hagar: Hell, I married the enemy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/view/84135420/?autoplay=true

Miss USA contestants 2014.


I pick - Miss Utah.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thomas O. Eliason

quote:

Hagar: Hell, I married the enemy

We all do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jim

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/view/84135420/?autoplay=true

Miss USA contestants 2014.


I pick - Miss Utah.

Miss D.C. hands down. How could you not vote for a beauty pageant contestant with the last name of "Butts"

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: jim

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/view/84135420/?autoplay=true

Miss USA contestants 2014.


I pick - Miss Utah.

Miss D.C. hands down. How could you not vote for a beauty pageant contestant with the last name of "Butts"

One of the Butt sisters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Duderino

Anyone else watching the World Cup? Utter domination by Het Oranje today ... Spain could easily have lost by 7.