quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

As a side bar to a great conversation. Does anyone up there know if the correlation to the Fighting Poo changing their names came as a result of Engelstad building the stadium? I mean, was there a push to change it before that?

That's around the time I first heard it and always wondered if that scumbag was the driving force for the push.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

As a side bar to a great conversation. Does anyone up there know if the correlation to the Fighting Poo changing their names came as a result of Engelstad building the stadium? I mean, was there a push to change it before that?

That's around the time I first heard it and always wondered if that scumbag was the driving force for the push.

My understanding is that Engelstad or somebody has an endowment to the University Contingent on them NOT changing the team name from Fighting Sioux.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

As a side bar to a great conversation. Does anyone up there know if the correlation to the Fighting Poo changing their names came as a result of Engelstad building the stadium? I mean, was there a push to change it before that?

That's around the time I first heard it and always wondered if that scumbag was the driving force for the push.

So wiki search - A bill was introduced in 1999 to ND's house of reps, died in committee. In 2000 a bunch of native american programs at ND signed a statement opposing the name and logo. Englestad built his Ralph Engelstad Arena in 2001, with the condition that the name never be changed. He also put the logo in thousand of places, in an attempt to make it too costly to ever remove the logo and change the name. IOW - they were connected, but I think in reverse. There was a push to change the name, and ol scumbag Englestad reacted by spending $100 million of his own money to try to prevent that from happening.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

As a side bar to a great conversation. Does anyone up there know if the correlation to the Fighting Poo changing their names came as a result of Engelstad building the stadium? I mean, was there a push to change it before that?

That's around the time I first heard it and always wondered if that scumbag was the driving force for the push.

My understanding is that Engelstad or somebody has an endowment to the University Contingent on them NOT changing the team name from Fighting Sioux.

The name is changed, they are not the Fighting Sioux, haven't been since 2012. Right now they don't have a name, because of the fiasco. They can select a new name and logo in 2015.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Who cares more, Native Americans or white guilt Americans?


With poverty, substance abuse, schooling atrocities...is it on their list even?


You tell me that Native Americans, generally, HATE any reference to the Washington Redskins and I'll accept that.

Should have never been done but does it really matter now?

I can only speak for people that I know and have asked. My wife is slightly less than 50% native American. A combination of Potawatomi and Blackfoot, but, a bit more Potawatomi. Her dad was born on the Potawatomi reservation and has free housing, medical services and other services if he chooses to take advantage of them by living on the reservation. These are also available to my wife , my children and even my grandkids if any of them ever wanted to take advantage of them someday. I just asked my wife right now and have asked my father in law several times over the years about being offended by the Redskins name. The answer has always been that they could care less and it doesn't bother them at all. They just consider themselves Americans and wish other people could just get over the past and move on with their lives the way they have.

That's a healthy way to view life. But - this is up to you obviously - ask her how she would feel if someone decided they would start referring to her, personally, whenever they saw here, as a redskin. Maybe it's the same answer, but for many it's not. I totally get why native Americans don't worry about this, especially if they aren't fans of the team or the NFL. Most of us have enough to worry about without making this a cause, but at the same time, if a new franchise were started we wouldn't put up with 'the blackies' or the 'wetbacks' or the 'slanteyes'. It's not on a par with world hunger, or even putting food on your kid's table, but at this point, with so many people asking the owner to change it, it's a no brainer.

Good idea Prescott. She's asleep now and I'm on my way to bed, but, I will ask her that tomorrow and let you know what she says. She wondered why I was asking about it earlier this evening and I said that it's been in the news recently again. I know that friends of hers have called her Pocahontas occasionally in a joking manner and she laughs and tells them that she is an Indian princess, which she technically is because of her bloodlines. I'm curious what she'll say about it if it were a name given to a team today, so I'll let you know. On a less serious note if we start a new franchise I'm good with Beer Guzzling Krauts. Being one, I think we could kick ass.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Who cares more, Native Americans or white guilt Americans?


With poverty, substance abuse, schooling atrocities...is it on their list even?


You tell me that Native Americans, generally, HATE any reference to the Washington Redskins and I'll accept that.

Should have never been done but does it really matter now?

I can only speak for people that I know and have asked. My wife is slightly less than 50% native American. A combination of Potawatomi and Blackfoot, but, a bit more Potawatomi. Her dad was born on the Potawatomi reservation and has free housing, medical services and other services if he chooses to take advantage of them by living on the reservation. These are also available to my wife , my children and even my grandkids if any of them ever wanted to take advantage of them someday. I just asked my wife right now and have asked my father in law several times over the years about being offended by the Redskins name. The answer has always been that they could care less and it doesn't bother them at all. They just consider themselves Americans and wish other people could just get over the past and move on with their lives the way they have.

That's a healthy way to view life. But - this is up to you obviously - ask her how she would feel if someone decided they would start referring to her, personally, whenever they saw here, as a redskin. Maybe it's the same answer, but for many it's not. I totally get why native Americans don't worry about this, especially if they aren't fans of the team or the NFL. Most of us have enough to worry about without making this a cause, but at the same time, if a new franchise were started we wouldn't put up with 'the blackies' or the 'wetbacks' or the 'slanteyes'. It's not on a par with world hunger, or even putting food on your kid's table, but at this point, with so many people asking the owner to change it, it's a no brainer.

Good idea Prescott. She's asleep now and I'm on my way to bed, but, I will ask her that tomorrow and let you know what she says. She wondered why I was asking about it earlier this evening and I said that it's been in the news recently again. I know that friends of hers have called her Pocahontas occasionally in a joking manner and she laughs and tells them that she is an Indian princess, which she technically is because of her bloodlines. I'm curious what she'll say about it if it were a name given to a team today, so I'll let you know. On a less serious note if we start a new franchise I'm good with Beer Guzzling Krauts. Being one, I think we could kick ass.

Same here. And those are the ones (like 'fighting irish') that get brought up, however they're slightly positive, and not quite comparable. More like "goose stepping krauts" or maybe 'gassing germans' or 'drunken irish' 'stupid pollack'. Redskins just doesn't have any positive connotations. It's maybe not quite like calling a black person the n word, but it's pretty close to calling the vietnamese gooks, or chinese chinks. No reason for it. Guilt or no guilt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Who cares more, Native Americans or white guilt Americans?


With poverty, substance abuse, schooling atrocities...is it on their list even?


You tell me that Native Americans, generally, HATE any reference to the Washington Redskins and I'll accept that.

Should have never been done but does it really matter now?

I can only speak for people that I know and have asked. My wife is slightly less than 50% native American. A combination of Potawatomi and Blackfoot, but, a bit more Potawatomi. Her dad was born on the Potawatomi reservation and has free housing, medical services and other services if he chooses to take advantage of them by living on the reservation. These are also available to my wife , my children and even my grandkids if any of them ever wanted to take advantage of them someday. I just asked my wife right now and have asked my father in law several times over the years about being offended by the Redskins name. The answer has always been that they could care less and it doesn't bother them at all. They just consider themselves Americans and wish other people could just get over the past and move on with their lives the way they have.

That's a healthy way to view life. But - this is up to you obviously - ask her how she would feel if someone decided they would start referring to her, personally, whenever they saw here, as a redskin. Maybe it's the same answer, but for many it's not. I totally get why native Americans don't worry about this, especially if they aren't fans of the team or the NFL. Most of us have enough to worry about without making this a cause, but at the same time, if a new franchise were started we wouldn't put up with 'the blackies' or the 'wetbacks' or the 'slanteyes'. It's not on a par with world hunger, or even putting food on your kid's table, but at this point, with so many people asking the owner to change it, it's a no brainer.

Good idea Prescott. She's asleep now and I'm on my way to bed, but, I will ask her that tomorrow and let you know what she says. She wondered why I was asking about it earlier this evening and I said that it's been in the news recently again. I know that friends of hers have called her Pocahontas occasionally in a joking manner and she laughs and tells them that she is an Indian princess, which she technically is because of her bloodlines. I'm curious what she'll say about it if it were a name given to a team today, so I'll let you know. On a less serious note if we start a new franchise I'm good with Beer Guzzling Krauts. Being one, I think we could kick ass.

Prescott, I asked my wife about someone calling her redskin continually as a way to demean her and she just laughed and said basically that she couldn't care less because her skin isn't red. When I pressed her
a little more on it she said she might say something like well my people were here first you thieving bastards. She was laughing out loud at that point. I also asked about making the Redskins change their name and she that that was asinine. It's been their name forever and people should get over it and worry about more important things than a perceived slight that they probably never even thought about until some activist group told them what they should think about it. I also asked her if there had never been a team called the Redskins and someone wanted to start a new team with that name should they be allowed to. She doesn't consider redskin to be racist but said that anyone trying to start a new team with that name would be an idiot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Who cares more, Native Americans or white guilt Americans?


With poverty, substance abuse, schooling atrocities...is it on their list even?


You tell me that Native Americans, generally, HATE any reference to the Washington Redskins and I'll accept that.

Should have never been done but does it really matter now?

I can only speak for people that I know and have asked. My wife is slightly less than 50% native American. A combination of Potawatomi and Blackfoot, but, a bit more Potawatomi. Her dad was born on the Potawatomi reservation and has free housing, medical services and other services if he chooses to take advantage of them by living on the reservation. These are also available to my wife , my children and even my grandkids if any of them ever wanted to take advantage of them someday. I just asked my wife right now and have asked my father in law several times over the years about being offended by the Redskins name. The answer has always been that they could care less and it doesn't bother them at all. They just consider themselves Americans and wish other people could just get over the past and move on with their lives the way they have.

That's a healthy way to view life. But - this is up to you obviously - ask her how she would feel if someone decided they would start referring to her, personally, whenever they saw here, as a redskin. Maybe it's the same answer, but for many it's not. I totally get why native Americans don't worry about this, especially if they aren't fans of the team or the NFL. Most of us have enough to worry about without making this a cause, but at the same time, if a new franchise were started we wouldn't put up with 'the blackies' or the 'wetbacks' or the 'slanteyes'. It's not on a par with world hunger, or even putting food on your kid's table, but at this point, with so many people asking the owner to change it, it's a no brainer.

Good idea Prescott. She's asleep now and I'm on my way to bed, but, I will ask her that tomorrow and let you know what she says. She wondered why I was asking about it earlier this evening and I said that it's been in the news recently again. I know that friends of hers have called her Pocahontas occasionally in a joking manner and she laughs and tells them that she is an Indian princess, which she technically is because of her bloodlines. I'm curious what she'll say about it if it were a name given to a team today, so I'll let you know. On a less serious note if we start a new franchise I'm good with Beer Guzzling Krauts. Being one, I think we could kick ass.

Same here. And those are the ones (like 'fighting irish') that get brought up, however they're slightly positive, and not quite comparable. More like "goose stepping krauts" or maybe 'gassing germans' or 'drunken irish' 'stupid pollack'. Redskins just doesn't have any positive connotations. It's maybe not quite like calling a black person the n word, but it's pretty close to calling the vietnamese gooks, or chinese chinks. No reason for it. Guilt or no guilt.

I'm also part Irish. We're not all drunken.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynn G.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Who cares more, Native Americans or white guilt Americans?


With poverty, substance abuse, schooling atrocities...is it on their list even?


You tell me that Native Americans, generally, HATE any reference to the Washington Redskins and I'll accept that.

Should have never been done but does it really matter now?

I can only speak for people that I know and have asked. My wife is slightly less than 50% native American. A combination of Potawatomi and Blackfoot, but, a bit more Potawatomi. Her dad was born on the Potawatomi reservation and has free housing, medical services and other services if he chooses to take advantage of them by living on the reservation. These are also available to my wife , my children and even my grandkids if any of them ever wanted to take advantage of them someday. I just asked my wife right now and have asked my father in law several times over the years about being offended by the Redskins name. The answer has always been that they could care less and it doesn't bother them at all. They just consider themselves Americans and wish other people could just get over the past and move on with their lives the way they have.

That's a healthy way to view life. But - this is up to you obviously - ask her how she would feel if someone decided they would start referring to her, personally, whenever they saw here, as a redskin. Maybe it's the same answer, but for many it's not. I totally get why native Americans don't worry about this, especially if they aren't fans of the team or the NFL. Most of us have enough to worry about without making this a cause, but at the same time, if a new franchise were started we wouldn't put up with 'the blackies' or the 'wetbacks' or the 'slanteyes'. It's not on a par with world hunger, or even putting food on your kid's table, but at this point, with so many people asking the owner to change it, it's a no brainer.

Good idea Prescott. She's asleep now and I'm on my way to bed, but, I will ask her that tomorrow and let you know what she says. She wondered why I was asking about it earlier this evening and I said that it's been in the news recently again. I know that friends of hers have called her Pocahontas occasionally in a joking manner and she laughs and tells them that she is an Indian princess, which she technically is because of her bloodlines. I'm curious what she'll say about it if it were a name given to a team today, so I'll let you know. On a less serious note if we start a new franchise I'm good with Beer Guzzling Krauts. Being one, I think we could kick ass.

Prescott, I asked my wife about someone calling her redskin continually as a way to demean her and she just laughed and said basically that she couldn't care less because her skin isn't red. When I pressed her
a little more on it she said she might say something like well my people were here first you thieving bastards. She was laughing out loud at that point. I also asked about making the Redskins change their name and she that that was asinine. It's been their name forever and people should get over it and worry about more important things than a perceived slight that they probably never even thought about until some activist group told them what they should think about it. I also asked her if there had never been a team called the Redskins and someone wanted to start a new team with that name should they be allowed to. She doesn't consider redskin to be racist but said that anyone trying to start a new team with that name would be an idiot.

I appreciate getting the point of view of someone with Native American heritage. I would disagree with her characterization that many people probably never thought about it until some activist group told them what they should think. Hearing racial slurs like redskin and all of the others that have been listed in previous posts gives a visceral reaction to millions of people who have done even a little bit of reading or listening on the topic. It doesn't take an activist group to evolve to that level of empathy.

Again - proof is in the words of the defenders. When they refer to the people affected as "Native Americans" it shows that even those folks won't use the term "redskin" because they know EXACTLY how bad that sounds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynn G.

Bill - since the word does not contain any negative connotations in your opinion, why didn't you use it instead of using "Native American" in your last line? Would you refer to someone as a redskin to their face?

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Who cares more, Native Americans or white guilt Americans?


With poverty, substance abuse, schooling atrocities...is it on their list even?


You tell me that Native Americans, generally, HATE any reference to the Washington Redskins and I'll accept that.

Should have never been done but does it really matter now?

I can only speak for people that I know and have asked. My wife is slightly less than 50% native American. A combination of Potawatomi and Blackfoot, but, a bit more Potawatomi. Her dad was born on the Potawatomi reservation and has free housing, medical services and other services if he chooses to take advantage of them by living on the reservation. These are also available to my wife , my children and even my grandkids if any of them ever wanted to take advantage of them someday. I just asked my wife right now and have asked my father in law several times over the years about being offended by the Redskins name. The answer has always been that they could care less and it doesn't bother them at all. They just consider themselves Americans and wish other people could just get over the past and move on with their lives the way they have.

That's a healthy way to view life. But - this is up to you obviously - ask her how she would feel if someone decided they would start referring to her, personally, whenever they saw here, as a redskin. Maybe it's the same answer, but for many it's not. I totally get why native Americans don't worry about this, especially if they aren't fans of the team or the NFL. Most of us have enough to worry about without making this a cause, but at the same time, if a new franchise were started we wouldn't put up with 'the blackies' or the 'wetbacks' or the 'slanteyes'. It's not on a par with world hunger, or even putting food on your kid's table, but at this point, with so many people asking the owner to change it, it's a no brainer.

Good idea Prescott. She's asleep now and I'm on my way to bed, but, I will ask her that tomorrow and let you know what she says. She wondered why I was asking about it earlier this evening and I said that it's been in the news recently again. I know that friends of hers have called her Pocahontas occasionally in a joking manner and she laughs and tells them that she is an Indian princess, which she technically is because of her bloodlines. I'm curious what she'll say about it if it were a name given to a team today, so I'll let you know. On a less serious note if we start a new franchise I'm good with Beer Guzzling Krauts. Being one, I think we could kick ass.

Same here. And those are the ones (like 'fighting irish') that get brought up, however they're slightly positive, and not quite comparable. More like "goose stepping krauts" or maybe 'gassing germans' or 'drunken irish' 'stupid pollack'. Redskins just doesn't have any positive connotations. It's maybe not quite like calling a black person the n word, but it's pretty close to calling the vietnamese gooks, or chinese chinks. No reason for it. Guilt or no guilt.

I'm also part Irish. We're not all drunken.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynn G.

Bill - since the word does not contain any negative connotations in your opinion, why didn't you use it instead of using "Native American" in your last line? Would you refer to someone as a redskin to their face?

I actually thought about it. But after reading alot of responses I may not fully grasp this name. I did not know it is similiar to the "N" word. If it is then the word itself is negative.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

You can't expect the natives to know what's good for them. [&o]

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

First, let me say that I would never name a team Redskins and do not like the name one bit.

However, my Native American friend is a big Redskins fan BECAUSE of the name/mascot. The Raiders are the most popular team for Natives in the area I grew up in, but the Redskins are probably the second most popular team and I would assume it is the name and mascot they like.

Also, I have never heard Redskin used as a slur. It is nothing even vaguely like the N word, at least in my experience. When people would put down Natives, I would hear words like "drunk lazy Indian", but the word Indian was not a slur, it was obviously the adjectives preceding it that were the slams.

The driving force behind wanting the name Redskins changed is political correctness. This is fine by me as I think it is a very politically incorrect name, but lets not pretend that most Natives are all broken up about this name, because I really do not think that is accurate. Many actually like it. [:-]

quote:

ORIGINAL: joejitsu

David L., and other SoCal posters on the board, do you think there is enough support in the greater L.A. area for an NFL franchise?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: joejitsu

David L., and other SoCal posters on the board, do you think there is enough support in the greater L.A. area for an NFL franchise?

It's hard to say. I mean there is certainly an interest from folks to have a local team, but I don't know how sustainable it is and depending on the team, support strength will vary.

Based on those I've talked to, both prominent and regular folk alike, an expansion, new team would do better than an existing team being transplanted. Folks here would be more apt to pledge allegiance and follow a brand new team that needs to create a fan base.

But, ultimately, as I've said over the years here, if the team isn't a perennial winner, long term, they won't be successful as a franchise. Folks here are the most fair weather folks on the face of this earth and they won't dare support a losing team, ever. If the team usng always a legitimate contender for stuff least their division, as soon as they start losing, people will stop going.

And when that happens over the course of some years, the long term financial viability of the team will come in to question. And if/when THAT happens, stand by for the swooning of other cities and the moving trucks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

You can't expect the natives to know what's good for them. [&o]

At a certain point, it does all become just words. I don't use the n word, but I hear it all the time. It's not like the word has gone away, far from it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

You can't expect the natives to know what's good for them. [&o]

At a certain point, it does all become just words. I don't use the n word, but I hear it all the time. It's not like the word has gone away, far from it.

Other than in a movie (Django, etc) or hip hop on Sirus, or from blacks themselves I can't remember the last time I've heard it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

First, let me say that I would never name a team Redskins and do not like the name one bit.

However, my Native American friend is a big Redskins fan BECAUSE of the name/mascot. The Raiders are the most popular team for Natives in the area I grew up in, but the Redskins are probably the second most popular team and I would assume it is the name and mascot they like.

Also, I have never heard Redskin used as a slur. It is nothing even vaguely like the N word, at least in my experience. When people would put down Natives, I would hear words like "drunk lazy Indian", but the word Indian was not a slur, it was obviously the adjectives preceding it that were the slams.

The driving force behind wanting the name Redskins changed is political correctness. This is fine by me as I think it is a very politically incorrect name, but lets not pretend that most Natives are all broken up about this name, because I really do not think that is accurate. Many actually like it. [:-]

Beat a group of people down, over and over. Steal their land and break treaties that you authored. I'm not at all surprised that the remaining Native Americans don't give a shit about the name of a football team. Quite likely they have more important things to worry about.

How can right vs. wrong be so cloudy? How can our history be so selectively recalled?

As a nation, we have a relatively short history. Some of our history is great, and we should be proud. Some of our history is shameful.
Time to move on and if we have to error, lets error on the side of right. The side of human beings.

If only all of us could spend just one day in the shoes of our enemy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

First, let me say that I would never name a team Redskins and do not like the name one bit.

However, my Native American friend is a big Redskins fan BECAUSE of the name/mascot. The Raiders are the most popular team for Natives in the area I grew up in, but the Redskins are probably the second most popular team and I would assume it is the name and mascot they like.

Also, I have never heard Redskin used as a slur. It is nothing even vaguely like the N word, at least in my experience. When people would put down Natives, I would hear words like "drunk lazy Indian", but the word Indian was not a slur, it was obviously the adjectives preceding it that were the slams.

The driving force behind wanting the name Redskins changed is political correctness. This is fine by me as I think it is a very politically incorrect name, but lets not pretend that most Natives are all broken up about this name, because I really do not think that is accurate. Many actually like it. [:-]

Beat a group of people down, over and over. Steal their land and break treaties that you authored. I'm not at all surprised that the remaining Native Americans don't give a shit about the name of a football team. Quite likely they have more important things to worry about.

How can right vs. wrong be so cloudy? How can our history be so selectively recalled?

As a nation, we have a relatively short history. Some of our history is great, and we should be proud. Some of our history is shameful.
Time to move on and if we have to error, lets error on the side of right. The side of human beings.

If only all of us could spend just one day in the shoes of our enemy.

quote:

You do excuse their foolishness because their ancestors were beaten down and had their land stolen, so I guess they have that going for them