quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynn G.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

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ORIGINAL: Todd M

Who cares more, Native Americans or white guilt Americans?


With poverty, substance abuse, schooling atrocities...is it on their list even?


You tell me that Native Americans, generally, HATE any reference to the Washington Redskins and I'll accept that.

Should have never been done but does it really matter now?

I think "white guilt" doesn't really hit the mark here. Perhaps white guilt played a role in the civil rights movement, but I think quite a bit of that was just recognizing right vs. wrong. Same here. No guilt from this white American, just disgust that parts of society insist on holding on to our racist foundation.

Did heterosexual guilt help advance the gay rights movement?

Part of the reason there doesn't appear to be a vocal outcry from Native Americans is because we killed most of them.
Including Native Alaskans, Native Americans comprise less than 1% of the American population. How many of them do you suppose give a shit about football?

Going along with popular belief in here, there are more Vikings fans in Minnesota than there are Native Americans in the entire country.
Quite possibly they need assistance from an outside guilty or humanitarian party.

The very least we could do is evolve a little.

And it most certainly does matter now. Nothing positive can result in continuing to hold onto our racist symbols, history and institutions.

I agree with every word.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynn G.

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ORIGINAL: Prescott

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ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Who cares more, Native Americans or white guilt Americans?


With poverty, substance abuse, schooling atrocities...is it on their list even?


You tell me that Native Americans, generally, HATE any reference to the Washington Redskins and I'll accept that.

Should have never been done but does it really matter now?

I can only speak for people that I know and have asked. My wife is slightly less than 50% native American. A combination of Potawatomi and Blackfoot, but, a bit more Potawatomi. Her dad was born on the Potawatomi reservation and has free housing, medical services and other services if he chooses to take advantage of them by living on the reservation. These are also available to my wife , my children and even my grandkids if any of them ever wanted to take advantage of them someday. I just asked my wife right now and have asked my father in law several times over the years about being offended by the Redskins name. The answer has always been that they could care less and it doesn't bother them at all. They just consider themselves Americans and wish other people could just get over the past and move on with their lives the way they have.

That's a healthy way to view life. But - this is up to you obviously - ask her how she would feel if someone decided they would start referring to her, personally, whenever they saw here, as a redskin. Maybe it's the same answer, but for many it's not. I totally get why native Americans don't worry about this, especially if they aren't fans of the team or the NFL. Most of us have enough to worry about without making this a cause, but at the same time, if a new franchise were started we wouldn't put up with 'the blackies' or the 'wetbacks' or the 'slanteyes'. It's not on a par with world hunger, or even putting food on your kid's table, but at this point, with so many people asking the owner to change it, it's a no brainer.

Well said, and it brings up a point I have noticed in every conversation in which someone is defending the name. They always say something like "the Native Americans who have spoken up have said they are not offended by the name."

Why don't they say "the redskins who have spoken up have said ..."?

In other words - even the people who claim they don't think the name has any negative connotations won't actually refer to people as "redskins" in conversation. They know exactly how bad that would sound and the proof is in how they phrase their own opinions.

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ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

I am really wondering where all the angry Norwegian Americans are demanding we change our favorite team's nickname...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Just finished reading that, David.

I'm one of the few people that don't care whether or not they change the name.

I'm surprised DS is fighting it so hard. Isn't there just a huge potential to sell sell sell?
Washington Red Dragons.

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ORIGINAL: Prescott

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ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Who cares more, Native Americans or white guilt Americans?


With poverty, substance abuse, schooling atrocities...is it on their list even?


You tell me that Native Americans, generally, HATE any reference to the Washington Redskins and I'll accept that.

Should have never been done but does it really matter now?

I can only speak for people that I know and have asked. My wife is slightly less than 50% native American. A combination of Potawatomi and Blackfoot, but, a bit more Potawatomi. Her dad was born on the Potawatomi reservation and has free housing, medical services and other services if he chooses to take advantage of them by living on the reservation. These are also available to my wife , my children and even my grandkids if any of them ever wanted to take advantage of them someday. I just asked my wife right now and have asked my father in law several times over the years about being offended by the Redskins name. The answer has always been that they could care less and it doesn't bother them at all. They just consider themselves Americans and wish other people could just get over the past and move on with their lives the way they have.

That's a healthy way to view life. But - this is up to you obviously - ask her how she would feel if someone decided they would start referring to her, personally, whenever they saw here, as a redskin. Maybe it's the same answer, but for many it's not. I totally get why native Americans don't worry about this, especially if they aren't fans of the team or the NFL. Most of us have enough to worry about without making this a cause, but at the same time, if a new franchise were started we wouldn't put up with 'the blackies' or the 'wetbacks' or the 'slanteyes'. It's not on a par with world hunger, or even putting food on your kid's table, but at this point, with so many people asking the owner to change it, it's a no brainer.

Good idea Prescott. She's asleep now and I'm on my way to bed, but, I will ask her that tomorrow and let you know what she says. She wondered why I was asking about it earlier this evening and I said that it's been in the news recently again. I know that friends of hers have called her Pocahontas occasionally in a joking manner and she laughs and tells them that she is an Indian princess, which she technically is because of her bloodlines. I'm curious what she'll say about it if it were a name given to a team today, so I'll let you know. On a less serious note if we start a new franchise I'm good with Beer Guzzling Krauts. Being one, I think we could kick ass.

Same here. And those are the ones (like 'fighting irish') that get brought up, however they're slightly positive, and not quite comparable. More like "goose stepping krauts" or maybe 'gassing germans' or 'drunken irish' or 'stupid pollack'. Redskins just doesn't have any positive connotations. It's maybe not quite like calling a black person the n word, but it's pretty close to calling the vietnamese gooks, or chinese chinks. No reason for it. Guilt or no guilt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

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ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Who cares more, Native Americans or white guilt Americans?


With poverty, substance abuse, schooling atrocities...is it on their list even?


You tell me that Native Americans, generally, HATE any reference to the Washington Redskins and I'll accept that.

Should have never been done but does it really matter now?

I can only speak for people that I know and have asked. My wife is slightly less than 50% native American. A combination of Potawatomi and Blackfoot, but, a bit more Potawatomi. Her dad was born on the Potawatomi reservation and has free housing, medical services and other services if he chooses to take advantage of them by living on the reservation. These are also available to my wife , my children and even my grandkids if any of them ever wanted to take advantage of them someday. I just asked my wife right now and have asked my father in law several times over the years about being offended by the Redskins name. The answer has always been that they could care less and it doesn't bother them at all. They just consider themselves Americans and wish other people could just get over the past and move on with their lives the way they have.

That's a healthy way to view life. But - this is up to you obviously - ask her how she would feel if someone decided they would start referring to her, personally, whenever they saw here, as a redskin. Maybe it's the same answer, but for many it's not. I totally get why native Americans don't worry about this, especially if they aren't fans of the team or the NFL. Most of us have enough to worry about without making this a cause, but at the same time, if a new franchise were started we wouldn't put up with 'the blackies' or the 'wetbacks' or the 'slanteyes'. It's not on a par with world hunger, or even putting food on your kid's table, but at this point, with so many people asking the owner to change it, it's a no brainer.

Good idea Prescott. She's asleep now and I'm on my way to bed, but, I will ask her that tomorrow and let you know what she says. She wondered why I was asking about it earlier this evening and I said that it's been in the news recently again. I know that friends of hers have called her Pocahontas occasionally in a joking manner and she laughs and tells them that she is an Indian princess, which she technically is because of her bloodlines. I'm curious what she'll say about it if it were a name given to a team today, so I'll let you know. On a less serious note if we start a new franchise I'm good with Beer Guzzling Krauts. Being one, I think we could kick ass.

Same here. And those are the ones (like 'fighting irish') that get brought up, however they're slightly positive, and not quite comparable. More like "goose stepping krauts" or maybe 'gassing germans' or 'drunken irish' or 'stupid pollack'. Redskins just doesn't have any positive connotations. It's maybe not quite like calling a black person the n word, but it's pretty close to calling the vietnamese gooks, or chinese chinks. No reason for it. Guilt or no guilt.

Yet it also does not contain any negative connotations. Such as "stupid pollacks" or some of your other examples.

I'm not offended by it but I'm not a Native American either. i simply don't think it is derogotory or negative.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Who cares more, Native Americans or white guilt Americans?


With poverty, substance abuse, schooling atrocities...is it on their list even?


You tell me that Native Americans, generally, HATE any reference to the Washington Redskins and I'll accept that.

Should have never been done but does it really matter now?

I can only speak for people that I know and have asked. My wife is slightly less than 50% native American. A combination of Potawatomi and Blackfoot, but, a bit more Potawatomi. Her dad was born on the Potawatomi reservation and has free housing, medical services and other services if he chooses to take advantage of them by living on the reservation. These are also available to my wife , my children and even my grandkids if any of them ever wanted to take advantage of them someday. I just asked my wife right now and have asked my father in law several times over the years about being offended by the Redskins name. The answer has always been that they could care less and it doesn't bother them at all. They just consider themselves Americans and wish other people could just get over the past and move on with their lives the way they have.

That's a healthy way to view life. But - this is up to you obviously - ask her how she would feel if someone decided they would start referring to her, personally, whenever they saw here, as a redskin. Maybe it's the same answer, but for many it's not. I totally get why native Americans don't worry about this, especially if they aren't fans of the team or the NFL. Most of us have enough to worry about without making this a cause, but at the same time, if a new franchise were started we wouldn't put up with 'the blackies' or the 'wetbacks' or the 'slanteyes'. It's not on a par with world hunger, or even putting food on your kid's table, but at this point, with so many people asking the owner to change it, it's a no brainer.

Good idea Prescott. She's asleep now and I'm on my way to bed, but, I will ask her that tomorrow and let you know what she says. She wondered why I was asking about it earlier this evening and I said that it's been in the news recently again. I know that friends of hers have called her Pocahontas occasionally in a joking manner and she laughs and tells them that she is an Indian princess, which she technically is because of her bloodlines. I'm curious what she'll say about it if it were a name given to a team today, so I'll let you know. On a less serious note if we start a new franchise I'm good with Beer Guzzling Krauts. Being one, I think we could kick ass.

Same here. And those are the ones (like 'fighting irish') that get brought up, however they're slightly positive, and not quite comparable. More like "goose stepping krauts" or maybe 'gassing germans' or 'drunken irish' or 'stupid pollack'. Redskins just doesn't have any positive connotations. It's maybe not quite like calling a black person the n word, but it's pretty close to calling the vietnamese gooks, or chinese chinks. No reason for it. Guilt or no guilt.

Yet it also does not contain any negative connotations. Such as "stupid pollacks" or some of your other examples.

I'm not offended by it but I'm not a Native American either. i simply don't think it is derogotory or negative.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Saint Johns changed from the 'redmen' to the 'red storm'. Their tradition seems to still be intact. The Washington Wizards used to be the Bullets. They're still intact. I don't see the downside to changing a team's name in any way.

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ORIGINAL: David F.

Eight teams that changed their names.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/31799/8-other-pro-sports-teams-changed-their-nicknames

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ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

As a side bar to a great conversation. Does anyone up there know if the correlation to the Fighting Poo changing their names came as a result of Engelstad building the stadium? I mean, was there a push to change it before that?

That's around the time I first heard it and always wondered if that scumbag was the driving force for the push.

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ORIGINAL: Lynn G.

Snyder is an idiot - for many reasons - but one of them is that if they change the name not only does he receive kudos from people all over the nation and restore just a bit of his tarnished reputation - but he gets to sell millions of dollars in new memorabilia.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

As a side bar to a great conversation. Does anyone up there know if the correlation to the Fighting Poo changing their names came as a result of Engelstad building the stadium? I mean, was there a push to change it before that?

That's around the time I first heard it and always wondered if that scumbag was the driving force for the push.

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ORIGINAL: David F.

Sioux is a girl's name.

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ORIGINAL: David Levine

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ORIGINAL: David F.

Sioux is a girl's name.

You've never heard the Johnny Cash classic "A Boy Named Sioux"?