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So.Mn.Fan -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/20/2007 3:24:34 PM)

All great ones, IMO, he has already cracked the top group. It's a numbers game. 89-39 Bill Belichick's overall record as head coach of the Patriots, including the regular season and the playoffs, the best head coaching record in franchise history. 13-3 Bill Belichick's career record in playoff games. His winning percentage of .813 ranks second in NFL history to Vince Lombardi (9-1, .900), and his 13 total playoff wins are the fifth highest total of all time. 126 Number of regular season wins as a head coach, making Bill Belichick one of just four active NFL head coaches with 125 or more career wins. He joins Joe Gibbs, Mike Holmgren and Mike Shanahan. 32 Number of consecutive seasons Bill Belichick has coached in the NFL, the longest coaching tenure in the league. 21 Number of consecutive games won by the 2003-04 New England Patriots. 12 Number of division titles Bill Belichick has contributed to as a coach, including five of the last six AFC East titles as head coach of the Patriots. 5 Number of Super Bowl rings owned by Bill Belichick. 4 Number of consecutive AFC East titles won by the Patriots. 4 Number of consecutive seasons in which the Patriots have won a playoff game. No other team has had a victory in more than two consecutive seasons. Also, look at the guys working for him that everyone said were "geniuses" and the "real reason the Pats succeed". Romeo Crennel? Charlie Weis? Eric Mangini? What have they done since they left, and what has happened to the Pats? They haven't skipped a beat. Just a very good coach in all aspects of the game. And far from done. And doing it in an era where it is difficult to keep continuity on the roster. Agree that the lists you guys mention are full of aal-time great ones, and maybe Bill isn't there yet in your view. Understandable. Bud's omission? I'd say lack of a ring.



John Childress -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/20/2007 3:26:51 PM)

[quote="Lynn Garthwaite"]Doesn't Bud Grant make that list?[/quote] DUH!!! I looked at all the teams OTHER than the Vikings!



John Childress -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/20/2007 3:28:05 PM)

"Also, look at the guys working for him that everyone said were "geniuses" and the "real reason the Pats succeed". Romeo Crennel? Charlie Weis? Eric Mangini? What have they done since they left, and what has happened to the Pats? " The fact that his proteges are mediocre is not a feather in his cap at all. Just the opposite Also, you can't cherry pick on his record and leave out 5 losing seasons in Cleveland! They coung when rating him.



John Childress -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/20/2007 3:30:16 PM)

[quote="John Childress"]Bill is climbing up the ladder but there are several rungs in front of him still Walsh Lombardi Brown Gibbs Landry Shula Noll Those guys are in a class by themself. Look at the impact (ex Noll) that they had on the game and coaches that followed? After those you get to the next rung Belichick Johnson Parcels Shanahan Stram Then the next rung Madden Grant Cohwer Dungy Flores Levy Holmgren Vermeil[/quote]



Lynn G. -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/20/2007 3:32:26 PM)

Ah - that list looks much better. :)



Troy Newell -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/20/2007 3:36:14 PM)

[quote="Lynn Garthwaite"]Ah - that list looks much better. :)[/quote] It also shows the importance of winning it all. IF Grant and Levy win 4 more games (Their Superbowls) they would easily be in the very top rung and not the third.



John Childress -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/20/2007 4:54:12 PM)

If they win just 2 more games I put them up there. if they win 1 more I move them to the 2nd tier Dungy has a real chance to move up when you look at his resume 1. Actually made TB a good team 2. Left enough in place there for Gruden to win it all 3. Consistent division titles in Indy 4. Won Super bowl 5. Designed a defense copied all throughout the league 6. Disciples doing well



Jeff Jesser -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/20/2007 6:36:03 PM)

BB is a good to great coach but he's not an all time great IMO. The main reason he gets so much hype now is because ESPN is based out of Bristol CT. You think there isn't a bias on how he's perceived by them? That network (which BTW, controls all of sports at this time) is filled with nothing but Pat fans.



Guest -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/20/2007 7:51:04 PM)

[quote="So.Mn.Fan"] 4 Number of consecutive seasons in which the Patriots have won a playoff game. No other team has had a victory in more than two consecutive seasons. [/quote] eeeent wrong!!! buffalo bills 1990,1991,1992,1993 Philly 2001-2004



So.Mn.Fan -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/20/2007 9:22:12 PM)

[quote="Danimal"][quote="So.Mn.Fan"] 4 Number of consecutive seasons in which the Patriots have won a playoff game. No other team has had a victory in more than two consecutive seasons. [/quote] eeeent wrong!!! buffalo bills 1990,1991,1992,1993 Philly 2001-2004[/quote] So sorry. Forgot the word current or currently. Currently on a streak of 4 consecutive seasons in which the Patriots have won a playoff game. No other team (currently) has had a victory in more than two consecutive seasons.



djskillz -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/20/2007 9:22:22 PM)

[quote="John Childress"]If they win just 2 more games I put them up there. if they win 1 more I move them to the 2nd tier Dungy has a real chance to move up when you look at his resume 1. Actually made TB a good team 2. Left enough in place there for Gruden to win it all 3. Consistent division titles in Indy 4. Won Super bowl 5. Designed a defense copied all throughout the league 6. Disciples doing well[/quote] Did Dungy create the cover 2? I thought that was a Kiffin family line that did that. I LOVE Dungy, but I wouldn't put him up there at all yet. To each his own; I'm with Scott personally. Of other note, http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3026914&name=nfl_nfc Leinart is running out of excuses quickly. Their WR's are awesome, they have a HOF rb, and now an OL. Oh and a pretty decent TE to boot. He better start making noise or even the league hype will die down on him finally. Also, good article on Schaub today. Very interesting. Their DL cannot be ignored though. Mario and Okoye are SO young and they're already amazing. Both those guys are going to be top 10 defensive lineman in the LEAGUE for the next decade or so if you ask me. They're that good. Lastly, sucks for the Niners on Lawson. Lawson is a freak and he and Willis were already starting to do some special things together. I was one of those that really wanted Lawson last year.



djskillz -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/20/2007 9:24:23 PM)

[quote="So.Mn.Fan"][quote="Danimal"][quote="So.Mn.Fan"] 4 Number of consecutive seasons in which the Patriots have won a playoff game. No other team has had a victory in more than two consecutive seasons. [/quote] eeeent wrong!!! buffalo bills 1990,1991,1992,1993 Philly 2001-2004[/quote] So sorry. Forgot the word current or currently. Currently on a streak of 4 consecutive seasons in which the Patriots have won a playoff game. No other team (currently) has had a victory in more than two consecutive seasons.[/quote] and that will end up as semantics anyway, because they will break that this year too. i honestly almost don't know why any teams are even playing the season at this point. the ONLY thing that would stop the pats is an injury to brady. ANYTHING else and they're still champs.



Jake Carlson -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/21/2007 1:03:46 AM)

[quote="So.Mn.Fan"]All great ones, IMO, he has already cracked the top group. It's a numbers game. 89-39 Bill Belichick's overall record as head coach of the Patriots, including the regular season and the playoffs, the best head coaching record in franchise history. As JC pointed out, you can't pick and choose what stats you like. He was a head coach in Cleveland as well. (113-81 overall) 126 Number of regular season wins as a head coach, making Bill Belichick one of just four active NFL head coaches with 125 or more career wins. He joins Joe Gibbs, Mike Holmgren and Mike Shanahan. To me this means he's one of the top coaches currently in the league. It doesn't vault him to the top all-time. 32 Number of consecutive seasons Bill Belichick has coached in the NFL, the longest coaching tenure in the league. How does this affect his standing as a top head coach of all time? If longevity as any type of coach in the NFL is part of the criteria, then guys like Tom Moore and Monte Kiffin garner consideration. 12 Number of division titles Bill Belichick has contributed to as a coach, including five of the last six AFC East titles as head coach of the Patriots. Yes, 5 out of 6 is impressive, but the others have no relevance in this particular discussion since he was not head coach. Also, look at the guys working for him that everyone said were "geniuses" and the "real reason the Pats succeed". Romeo Crennel? Charlie Weis? Eric Mangini? What have they done since they left, and what has happened to the Pats? As far as the discussion of greatest head coaches of all time is concerned, I think this is a knock against Bill. Personally, I think it says a great deal about you the more future coaches you have influenced that end up being successful.[/quote]



MarkWren -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/21/2007 1:43:27 AM)

Burnsie was running the WC offense years and years before Walsh. Paul Brown never used the running back as a reciever the way Burns did with guys like Boom Boom Brown and Chuck Foreman. And I cannot allow the selection of one Jimmy Johnson--Super Bowl champs thanks to stinkin' Mike Lynn of the Vikes organization--to be rated higher than Bud Grant. No way. People also tend to forget Grant's incredible success in that "other" pro football league (the CFL) when evaluating his career. Grant won four Grey Cups in Canada, and his career total of 290 pro coaching wins trails only George Halas and Don Shula for most all-time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Grant Same thing with Warren Moon. If you add up Moon's total professional passing stats, they simply dwarf anything anyone else has done at the QB position.



Easy E -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/21/2007 2:20:21 AM)

[quote="djskilbr"][quote="So.Mn.Fan"][quote="Danimal"][quote="So.Mn.Fan"] 4 Number of consecutive seasons in which the Patriots have won a playoff game. No other team has had a victory in more than two consecutive seasons. [/quote] eeeent wrong!!! buffalo bills 1990,1991,1992,1993 Philly 2001-2004[/quote] So sorry. Forgot the word current or currently. Currently on a streak of 4 consecutive seasons in which the Patriots have won a playoff game. No other team (currently) has had a victory in more than two consecutive seasons.[/quote] and that will end up as semantics anyway, because they will break that this year too. i honestly almost don't know why any teams are even playing the season at this point. the ONLY thing that would stop the pats is an injury to brady. ANYTHING else and they're still champs.[/quote] Would you grant that if the Patriots stay relatively healthy (nothing more than any other coach goes through) and Bill B's team comes up short this year, that he may not be all the New English ESPNers think he is? I'm not saying change your mind now, but I think part of your evaluation of him factors in an easy slam dunk ring this year. If he has this awesome team and comes up short, will he still be the greatest of all time?



Stacey King -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/21/2007 3:31:54 AM)

It is pretty much over now, NFL wants it in the rear view mirror. NEW YORK (AP) -- The NFL has received and destroyed all materials it requested from the New England Patriots concerning videotaping of opponents' sidelines. A league statement Thursday said the team was in compliance with a request for tapes and other documents. "The Patriots have fully cooperated and complied with the requirements of the commissioner's decision," the statement said. "All tapes, documents and other records relating to this matter were turned over to the league office and destroyed, and the Patriots have certified in writing that no copies or other records exist. "League policies on in-game videotaping and audio communication will continue to be closely monitored and strictly enforced with all 32 teams." When asked if the Patriots' defensive players also used microphones or other recording devices in their shoulder pads to pick up Jets audibles, NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said: "We have no evidence to support that claim."



Lynn G. -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/21/2007 3:39:12 AM)

What do you want to bet that in all of those cases marked "2006 Bengals" and "2005 Jets" the Patriots substituted old John Wayne movies - knowing that the league would simply destroy them and not look at them. j/k



John Childress -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/21/2007 3:47:52 AM)

[quote="MarkWren"]Burnsie was running the WC offense years and years before Walsh. Paul Brown never used the running back as a reciever the way Burns did with guys like Boom Boom Brown and Chuck Foreman. And I cannot allow the selection of one Jimmy Johnson--Super Bowl champs thanks to stinkin' Mike Lynn of the Vikes organization--to be rated higher than Bud Grant. No way. People also tend to forget Grant's incredible success in that "other" pro football league (the CFL) when evaluating his career. Grant won four Grey Cups in Canada, and his career total of 290 pro coaching wins trails only George Halas and Don Shula for most all-time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Grant Same thing with Warren Moon. If you add up Moon's total professional passing stats, they simply dwarf anything anyone else has done at the QB position.[/quote] Vikings Fans keep pushing this notion of Burns as the architect of the WCO but it simply is not accurate. Walsh himself said that they designed that offense in Cincinnati to make up for the loss of QB Greg Cook (who was an excellent downfield passer). The replacement QBs, Sam Wyche and Virgil Carter, did not have big arms so Walsh (along with others) designed an offense based on WRs running short crossing routes that these guys could hit. It had nothing to do with the Vikings. Bud Grant - forgot about Canada and that might elevate him up. Jimmy Johnson - put aside your anger over the HW trade and realize he took a team from 1-15 (3-13 before he got there) and built them into the dominant team of the 90s. Sure he got the trade but he still had to draft and teach guys. He is not on the level of Landry and company but he won 2 SBs and left a team that won another one.



John Childress -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/21/2007 3:48:50 AM)

Don't be so quick to hand the Lombardi to New England. I remember a couple of 15-1 teams that didn't win it all.



djskillz -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/21/2007 5:22:40 AM)

[quote="Lynn Garthwaite"]What do you want to bet that in all of those cases marked "2006 Bengals" and "2005 Jets" the Patriots substituted old John Wayne movies - knowing that the league would simply destroy them and not look at them. j/k[/quote] "Why is the audio out in these portions?" hehe



djskillz -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/21/2007 5:27:21 AM)

[quote="Easy E"][quote="djskilbr"][quote="So.Mn.Fan"][quote="Danimal"][quote="So.Mn.Fan"] 4 Number of consecutive seasons in which the Patriots have won a playoff game. No other team has had a victory in more than two consecutive seasons. [/quote] eeeent wrong!!! buffalo bills 1990,1991,1992,1993 Philly 2001-2004[/quote] So sorry. Forgot the word current or currently. Currently on a streak of 4 consecutive seasons in which the Patriots have won a playoff game. No other team (currently) has had a victory in more than two consecutive seasons.[/quote] and that will end up as semantics anyway, because they will break that this year too. i honestly almost don't know why any teams are even playing the season at this point. the ONLY thing that would stop the pats is an injury to brady. ANYTHING else and they're still champs.[/quote] Would you grant that if the Patriots stay relatively healthy (nothing more than any other coach goes through) and Bill B's team comes up short this year, that he may not be all the New English ESPNers think he is? I'm not saying change your mind now, but I think part of your evaluation of him factors in an easy slam dunk ring this year. If he has this awesome team and comes up short, will he still be the greatest of all time?[/quote] That's an interesting point. I guess I look at it like this: It would certainly be a ding in the armor of him, but I rate him the best BEFORE this. Much like Coach K in college basketball. To me the Pats have not had nearly the most talented teams for a number of years (until now really) yet they won 3 superbowls. That is the ultimate compliment/reflection of BB in my book. That's why I think he's so great. I don't really care about assistants/future coaches based on other coaches. That's more like he's a great "coach's coach" or something like that; different category to me (though I do think all of Mangini, Weiss and Crennel are good coaches). The other thing that I really think keeps getting left out is the Parcells wins. Parcells has not really done anything of note outside of BB. To me, BB deserves at least a good share of credit for that success. Anyway, we could go round and round in this argument but noone can be proven "right." To each his own. Many think Coach K is not the best coach in college basketball since Wooden either; I happen to believe he is.



John Childress -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/21/2007 10:53:07 AM)

Coach K is easily the best coach since Bobby Knight went nuts. I agree about Duke's relative lack of talent. I think if you switched Coach K and Dean Smith then North Carolina would of had at least 2 more titles. I believe you are off on the Parcels stuff though. You have it backwards. First off, no way in the world did ANYONE run those Giants teams but Bill. He is the ultimate control nut. Second, Bill B was the defensive coordinator for a defensive coach! It was not a situation where he ran everything and Parcels left him alone. Next, he has not had a great impact on the game like Walsh, Shula, Landry, etc. His proteges have not done anything great nor has he set a new standard of offense or defense. Lastly., Bill B had a poor track record in Cleveland. That counts as well.



Easy E -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/21/2007 11:38:24 AM)

Dustin - everything you say about Parcells can be said about Bill B. What has he won since they left him? And deciding they aren't good coaches based on their first couple years is kinda like deciding the same thing about Bill B. He sucked at Cleveland. Winning 3 Super Bowl by a combined 9 points isn't nearly the same feat as dominating 3 Super Bowls. The Patriots weren't the most talented teams, but then again, other than the Rams, neither were their opponents. Carolina was possibly the worst team to ever make it to a Super Bowl, and the Iggles had their 2 best players hurt. Factor in that he likely knew what they were calling, and while Bill is a good coach, he's not the best. Not yet. And if he somehow takes this talent laden team and lays an egg with it, even more proof, IMO.



Duane Sampson -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/21/2007 3:43:37 PM)

Leave Bill Belichick Alone!!



Duane Sampson -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/21/2007 9:22:38 PM)

NFL Destroys Patriots Videotapes & Notes Fri Sep 21, 2007 The Boston Herald reports the NFL has received and destroyed all the videotapes, notes and documents it requested and received from New England Patriots HC Bill Belichick in the wake of Camera-gate, and the case appears closed. According to a league statement released yesterday through NFL spokesman Greg Aiello, the Pats complied with commissioner Roger Goodell’s request and vowed they haven’t kept anything behind. "The Patriots have fully cooperated and complied with the requirements of the commissioner’s decision," the statement read. "All tapes, documents and other records relating to this matter were turned over to the league office and destroyed, and the Patriots have certified in writing that no copies or other records exist. League policies on in-game videotaping and audio communication will continue to be closely monitored and strictly enforced with all 32 teams." When asked last night if he anticipated any further sanctions against the Patriots, Aiello said, "I don’t expect anything further." While it’s unclear why the tapes were destroyed, it’s likely the league wanted to make sure they wouldn’t be put to any use again by Belichick, who claims he misinterpreted the rules. It is believed by many around the league that Belichick had compiled a library of film on defensive coordinators and their signal-calling. The Pats coach was fined $500,000 by Goodell and the team was fined $250,000 for violating a league rule that prohibits clubs from using a video camera on the sidelines for any purpose - including recording signals relayed to opposing players on the field. The penalty also includes the loss of the Patriots’ first-round draft pick next year if they make the playoffs, or second- and third-rounders if they don’t. A video camera aimed at Jets coaches was confiscated from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella during the first quarter of the team’s 38-14 win over New York at the Meadowlands on Sept. 9. Jets HC Eric Mangini, the former Patriots defensive coordinator, reportedly blew the whistle on Belichick, and called in NFL security when he suspected the Patriots of filming his team’s signals. Another charge hurled at the Pats involved defensive players using microphones or other recording devices in their shoulder pads to pick up Jets audibles. "We have no evidence to support that claim," Aiello wrote in an e-mail last night.



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