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Steven JL -> Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 3:29:59 AM)

May not be a long-term thread but this breaking story deserves it own space for discussion.
quote:

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has determined that the New England Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped defensive signals by the New York Jets' coaches, according to league sources. NFL security officials confiscated a camera and videotape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the New England sidelines when it was suspected he was recording the Jets' defensive signals. Sources say the visual evidence confirmed the suspicion. Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including the possibility of docking the Patriots "multiple draft picks" because it is the competitive violation in the wake of a stern warning to all teams since he became commissioner, the sources said. The Patriots have been suspected in previous incidents. The Patriots will be allowed an opportunity to present their case by Friday, sources said, most likely via the telephone. NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said on Tuesday that no official decision has been made and that the club has not been notified. The league also was reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game, sources said. The team did not have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup during the game. Goodell is expected to have a decision no later than Friday but that is not set in stone.



Steven JL -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 3:36:58 AM)

The Pats have long bent the rules. This news taints many of their victories and will no doubt lead to NFL changes. First and foremost I now see the MLB getting a "green dot" communication helmet so that defensive teams needn't use hand signals any longer. The fact that they were caught doing this against the Packers (who they only play once every 4 years) proves that they learned to use this information within the game itself! It's a tremendous advantage to know what blitz package is coming. Enough to make another team look like a fool. Kinda like we did against them last year. And a bunch of teams in the last 4 years. If memory serves there was some vague mention last year about signal stealing - maybe against us? Somehow the Packers were tipped off. Couldn't happen to a nicer team... :lol:



Kurtis -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 3:39:07 AM)

Dennis Green accused the Giants of doing it, and it was dismissed as him being a sore loser. Hm... maybe he was right after all.



Steven JL -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 4:23:26 AM)

Word is that Belichick is headed to NY to meet with Goodell. If he isn't completely honest with Goodell, he should he held to the same standard as Vick and PacMan. I see draft picks and a suspension in the future. If Goodell digs deep enough I bet there are plenty of stool pigeon former Patriots who are willing to provide a history. Makes me proud that Childress stood up to Belichick's bullying with regard to the practice squad players. :scream:



Kurtis -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 4:35:53 AM)

What about the game they already played? Usually if someone is discovered to have cheated in a game, they aren't still thought to have "won."



JamieH -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 4:38:27 AM)

As soon as this story came out I said that the Patriots should lose draft picks and Bellicheck should get suspended and the Patriots should lose draft picks. It has to be big, cause this is bad. I say Bellicheck suspended 8 games and they lose a 1st and a 2nd. That will send a message. Plus, they have no access to any video for 8 games other than standard TV video.



Steven JL -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 4:57:09 AM)

[quote="Kurtis Scaletta"]What about the game they already played? Usually if someone is discovered to have cheated in a game, they aren't still thought to have "won."[/quote] Good point a forfeit isn't out of the question but I'm not sure that's enough by itself. This is a really good test for Goodell. If he handles this fairly against arguably the most powerful individual in the sport, not to mention a white one, he will have set the standard for integrity across the league from making it rain, to killing dogs, to undermining the competitive balance of the league. If he underpunishes I see accusations of bias and rightly so.



John Childress -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 5:14:36 AM)

[quote="Kurtis Scaletta"]Dennis Green accused the Giants of doing it, and it was dismissed as him being a sore loser. Hm... maybe he was right after all.[/quote] I bet they did do it also. They knew everything in that game. No way was that team 41-0 better than us The NFL has a real serious problem - just like the betting ref in the NBA and the juice in Baseball Sports are falling apart



Steve Archer -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 5:24:43 AM)

[quote="John Childress"][quote="Kurtis Scaletta"]Dennis Green accused the Giants of doing it, and it was dismissed as him being a sore loser. Hm... maybe he was right after all.[/quote] I bet they did do it also. They knew everything in that game. No way was that team 41-0 better than us The NFL has a real serious problem - just like the betting ref in the NBA and the juice in Baseball Sports are falling apart[/quote] That's the problem JC, professional sports have become big business. It's no longer about the game it all about the bottom line.



So.Mn.Fan -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 5:29:20 AM)

Fail to see what all the outrage is about here. Teams who win are anal about every aspect of the game. As Dan Shaughnessy said today, "The Pats are the KGB of the NFL". They will push every rule to the limit, until they are told to stop. Analyzing the sideline signals for an advantage? Gasp! There are cameras on everything that is going on on a stage like that. Stealing signs in baseball? Gasp! Wise up. Millions of dollars are paid to people to make sure they are better than the others guys people. This is Jets/Pats. Huge history here, with Bill B and Mangini. Bill will apologize if needed, take the draft choice hit, and move on and still beat everyone. Hide your signs. Out-smart the man. I can see it now, a line of Secret-Service-looking guys lining the sideline .... "keep your eyes on the field, sir, no looking over here".



Easy E -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 7:58:00 AM)

[quote="So.Mn.Fan"]Fail to see what all the outrage is about here. Teams who win are anal about every aspect of the game. As Dan Shaughnessy said today, "The Pats are the KGB of the NFL". They will push every rule to the limit, until they are told to stop. Analyzing the sideline signals for an advantage? Gasp! There are cameras on everything that is going on on a stage like that. Stealing signs in baseball? Gasp! Wise up. Millions of dollars are paid to people to make sure they are better than the others guys people. This is Jets/Pats. Huge history here, with Bill B and Mangini. Bill will apologize if needed, take the draft choice hit, and move on and still beat everyone. Hide your signs. Out-smart the man. I can see it now, a line of Secret-Service-looking guys lining the sideline .... "keep your eyes on the field, sir, no looking over here".[/quote] It's blatant cheating. It is banned in the NFL. If you can pair the pictures of every play with the signals, by the second half you know exactly what the other team is doing. A proper punishment would be to force the Patriots to give all their opponents mike access and their entire playbook for every game the rest of the season. Make sure the other team knows every play that the Patriots are going to run before they do it. Because that's what they were trying, and possibly succeeding, at doing. Bill would win maybe 1 game. This is out and out cheating and degrades the idea of fair competition. Do not blame other teams for playing by the rules and Bill cheating. This is at least as bad as players taking phd's.



So.Mn.Fan -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 8:17:21 AM)

Ok, I guess I understand the outrage. Knew someone would let me have it. Isn't it odd they use "signs" in the first place? Doesn't that mean they assume people are watching? There's a reason you don't hold up signs that say "Safety Blitz". As has been suggested, mic the D Captain if you must. Oh, and btw, are we all sure Mangini didn't use his previous employment with the Pats in some manner when they beat the Pats last year? Oh, that's right, I'm sure he kept any "inside info" to himself. It's another big ol' ball of cloudy wax. Where to draw the line is the hard part. I get the whole "integrity of the game" E, I really do. After listening to Mark Schlereths take on just how it could be implemented to one's advantage, I may understand the outrage better. But I still suspect around the league, 99% of the teams are scrambling to hide/shred/secure many things. Maybe Mangini "knew" something and alerted NFL security? Hmmm, if he did, how'd he know they did that? Hmmm. The NFL is a pretty big glass house. Schlereth talks about using polaroids of each play (legal) to match up to the signals. Well, there are enough bright guys out there that they don't need the film to match the picture, if you know what I mean. Maybe the polaroids should be outlawed as well. It just interests me how the sports look at things differently. Baseball's best managers have one thing in common, they are all very good at "stealing" signs and reading tendencies. It's part of the game. Being ready for stolen base, being ready for a hit-and-run, being ready to defend a squeeze bunt, reading "tipped" pitches. Reading and "stealing" those signs makes one a hero in a MLB dugout. Just noting the differences is all. Have always liked the way the Pats did things, or so I thought. If this turns out to be as big a scandal as it appears, I'll have to re-think how they did it.



Easy E -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 10:36:18 AM)

[quote="So.Mn.Fan"]Ok, I guess I understand the outrage. Knew someone would let me have it. Isn't it odd they use "signs" in the first place? Doesn't that mean they assume people are watching? There's a reason you don't hold up signs that say "Safety Blitz". As has been suggested, mic the D Captain if you must. Oh, and btw, are we all sure Mangini didn't use his previous employment with the Pats in some manner when they beat the Pats last year? Oh, that's right, I'm sure he kept any "inside info" to himself. It's another big ol' ball of cloudy wax. Where to draw the line is the hard part. I get the whole "integrity of the game" E, I really do. After listening to Mark Schlereths take on just how it could be implemented to one's advantage, I may understand the outrage better. But I still suspect around the league, 99% of the teams are scrambling to hide/shred/secure many things. Maybe Mangini "knew" something and alerted NFL security? Hmmm, if he did, how'd he know they did that? Hmmm. The NFL is a pretty big glass house. Schlereth talks about using polaroids of each play (legal) to match up to the signals. Well, there are enough bright guys out there that they don't need the film to match the picture, if you know what I mean. Maybe the polaroids should be outlawed as well. It just interests me how the sports look at things differently. Baseball's best managers have one thing in common, they are all very good at "stealing" signs and reading tendencies. It's part of the game. Being ready for stolen base, being ready for a hit-and-run, being ready to defend a squeeze bunt, reading "tipped" pitches. Reading and "stealing" those signs makes one a hero in a MLB dugout. Just noting the differences is all. Have always liked the way the Pats did things, or so I thought. If this turns out to be as big a scandal as it appears, I'll have to re-think how they did it.[/quote] I don't think I "let you have it", did I? I also get what you're saying. Similar to catcher hiding or changing their signs when a runner is on second, I have no problem, and think coaches should cover their mouths when calling plays. I also don't have a problem when Johnny Randle would stand right over the ball and stare into the opponents huddle, trying to hear the play call. I think this is similar to trying to steal signs in baseball, and I think it's somewhat a part of the game. If your second string QB can stand on the opposite sideline and pick up the opponents call, I don't have a real problem with it. I know it's a grayish line, but here's where I draw it. When you hire someone to pretend to be a part of a legal camera crew, and his only job is to surreptitiously try to video tape the opponent in an effort to steal their calls, so that you can use it by the 2nd or 3rd quarter to know everything the opponent is going to do, and you do this to obscure opponents even, in blatant disregard to a direct mandate from the NFL that this is illegal and should not be done.... that's my line. To me the baseball equivalent would be similar to planting people in the stands with cameras and mikes at a baseball game, and relaying them into a microphone in the hitters ear. "OK, Pujols, Clemens is going to be throwing you a fastball high and away on this pitch, get ready"..... that's just not sports, IMO. If Pujols sneaks a peek to see where the catcher is setting up, or if his teammate on second tries to signal to him, that's one thing, just like Sean Salisbury trying to read Buddy Ryan's lips. You start using instant technology to let you know every move your opponent is making, and that's just wrong. That just totally destroys competeive fairness. I'm serious. If these allegations turn out to be true, and I think they are, I would love to see every Patriot opponent be sanctioned by the NFL to have the best eavesdropping equipment. Mic Brady's helmet directly into the opposing team's MLB, and do it for the entire year. See how many games Bill B wins then. Cheating at this level needs to be punished harshly. As has been brought up, the Patriots knew damn well they were breaking the rules, and decided that the risk would be well worth the reward. It totally sucks that the last few Super Bowls may very well have been decided not by who the best team on the field was, but which team decided they could cheat and hire the best techno geeks to give them a huge advantage. Yuck!



John Childress -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 1:04:31 PM)

I don't think you can overestimate the importance of this issue. Have they been cheating throughout their Super Bowl runs? IS this why Brady has been nearly flawless in the playoffs - he knows what the defense is going to do? Now it COULD turn out to be minor but it also could be a bigger scandal than the NBA ref. The Pats could be the Barry Bonds of the NFL where no one respects their record any more because it was achieved outside of accepted fair play. Gooddell is in the hot seat. If he doesn't come down hard on them then he is a fraud.



Steven JL -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 1:30:03 PM)

[quote="John Childress"]I don't think you can overestimate the importance of this issue. Have they been cheating throughout their Super Bowl runs? IS this why Brady has been nearly flawless in the playoffs - he knows what the defense is going to do? Now it COULD turn out to be minor but it also could be a bigger scandal than the NBA ref. The Pats could be the Barry Bonds of the NFL where no one respects their record any more because it was achieved outside of accepted fair play. Gooddell is in the hot seat. If he doesn't come down hard on them then he is a fraud.[/quote] Amen. I think he needs to put Belichick in the same spot he put VIck and Pac. A 'on the record' here's your chance to come clean interview early (and I mean today). Demand a full acccounting of what was done, how long it's gone on, how they used it, and who was involved. Then begin an investigation just as thorough with the same FBI caliber personnel to dig up every detail they can about this. Review sideline footage of old games looking for this videographer, talk to the dozens of former Pats players and personnel who would have knowledge of this, and leave no stone unturned. Then after THAT investigation make a determination about Belichick. If he lied to the commissioner this week in his one chance for mea culpa hit him very very hard. Like 8 game suspension, no contact with the club, 2 first round draft choice hard. PacMan is a thug, Vick is a sadist with dogs but this goes to the integrity of the game and directly to the legacy of the greatest team (perhaps ever) and certainly of the last 20 years. The league and fans must have a full and complete investigation. If Goodell does this and shows consistentcy between this and Vick/Pac/Tank he will set himself up as an awesome commissioner and steward of the game. If he doesn't he'll be seen as a fraud.



Steven JL -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 2:03:28 PM)

Clayton's take http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=3014944 Highlights:
quote:

What could the punishment be? Goodell must come down hard on this one because he clearly has evidence. ESPN has reported that Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including the possibility of docking the Patriots "multiple draft picks." That could mean a combination of a second-rounder and something else, maybe a fifth-rounder. The commissioner could push the penalty over two years, but he can't treat this lightly by just taking away a second-day draft choice. The Patriots are good. They had only two draft choices -- a first- and a second-round pick -- make the team this season. Fining them just a fourth-round choice wouldn't hurt them much.
quote:

Other great organizations have paid penalties for violating league rules. The Broncos lost a draft choice for violating the salary cap with John Elway. The Steelers once had to forfeit a third-round draft choice for working out in shoulder pads in the offseason. The Patriots may lose a draft choice or two. And whether or not the Patriots videotaped the Jets' defensive signals, Belichick won't be any less of a coach.
Clayton doesn't get it. He thinks a shoulder pad practice in the offseason is worth a 3rd and THIS is worth a 2nd? Hell you could argue playing with pads was to protect guys shoulders this is blatent cheating against a specific mandate written to them by the league. If it's anything less than a first round choice it is a farce. Oh and he agrees that it will lead to MLBs getting the green dot helment by next year.



JamieH -> The punishment (after thinking about it carefully) (9/12/2007 2:23:59 PM)

I still think that you need something like this: IF Bellicheck is willing to admit blame on camera, tell the NFL exactly how he used the tapes, and agree to more careful monitoring for the period of 1 year: 4 game suspension for Bellicheck (similar to a player violating the rules for a second offense...since a warning letter went out for the Patriots, apparently, this is a second offense in my mind). Loss of a second round draft choice in 2008 and a third in 2009. If Bellicheck is not willing to admit blame: 8 game suspension for Bellicheck Loss of a 1st round draft choice in 2008 and a third in 2009. Forfeit of Jets game including all stats and records associated with it. Patriots to refund money to every fan that came to the game. I really think anything else is a complete farce.



Cheesehead Craig -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 3:42:00 PM)

I don't believe that the game result will be overturned. I can't see Goodell doing that on a first offense, even with something like this.



Lynn G. -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 3:46:39 PM)

Hey - if they won't reverse the game result even in a game in which the refs admitted that they made 10 errors in calls (9 of which were in the fourth quarter) - they're not going to overturn this game.



Steven JL -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 4:00:30 PM)

I think a forfeit is not on the table for this offense. It'd make a bit of a mockery of the game itself and it's not as if that game was close. However, if the Pats are caught doing this again! :shock: I think a forfeit would be on the table. On the other hand this apparently ISN'T a first offense and they were warned so suspension/loss of a first round pick seems stern enough to send a message of deterence.



John Childress -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 4:12:01 PM)

1st round pick and at least a 4 game suspension of Belichick Anything less is uncivilized



Duane Sampson -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 4:18:05 PM)

-- Belichick Illegally Taping Opposing Coaches since his Cleveland Days -- Wed Sep 12, 2007 The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reports Steelers assistant coaches said privately that New England Patriots HC Bill Belichick has illegally used cameras to spy on opposing coaches flashing signals from the sideline for years, even when he was coach of the Cleveland Browns. The NFL has confiscated a video camera and its contents from a Patriots employee who was standing on the sideline during New England's victory against the New York Jets Sunday, recording hand signals by Jets coaches, according to an ESPN report. The Patriots reportedly were warned about a previous use of a camera in a similar situation in Green Bay after the Packers escorted the cameraman from the field. A Boston Globe report also said the Buffalo Bills complained that the Patriots used a camera in a game against them last year. Steelers coaches, who asked not to be identified, have suspected for a long time that the Patriots used such a device to gain an illegal advantage, although they did not file a complaint with the league. One assistant said the Steelers changed their defensive signals whenever they played against New England because of their suspicions. New Steelers HC Mike Tomlin did not outright accuse New England of cheating, but said that the rumors have been around and "where there is smoke, there's fire." Tomlin, at his press conference yesterday, responded to the allegations that the Patriots have used cameras illegally to focus on opposing coaches along the sideline in order to steal their signals. "You hear rumors of things of that nature. It's nothing new. In terms of confirming it, it's never been confirmed in any instance to my knowledge. But usually where there is smoke, there's fire. Those rumors are founded on something. So it's not totally shocking, no."



Duane Sampson -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 4:18:38 PM)

The New York Daily News reports according to a former coach, this is likely how and why the New England Patriots stole the Jets defensive signals: The person with the camera, in this case, Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella, would tape the coach's hand signals as he sends the defense in. Then the camera person would verbally call out down and distance so the recorder's microphone would pick it up. Then when the tape is analyzed, the hand signals are matched up to down and distance and defensive scheme. "They would have it all chronicled such as: 4-3 even defense, cover 2, hand to the belt, index finger up," the coach said. "Now if you had a sharp guy in the huddle who was in for every play, you would teach him the signals and he would look over to the sidelines and steal the signals and tell the quarterback."



Duane Sampson -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 4:19:20 PM)

-- Jets Finally Catch Patriots Spying -- Wed Sep 12, 2007 The New York Daily News reports armed with counter-intelligence from HC Eric Mangini, the Jets apparently have succeeded in busting the Patriots' spy ring. A former assistant under Patriots HC Bill Belichick, Mangini arrived in New York last year with an insider's knowledge of the Patriots' sign-stealing surveillance tactics and he shared the dirty little secret with members of the Jets' organization, a person with knowledge of the matter said. It wasn't until the fifth Mangini-Belichick showdown - last Sunday - that the Jets were able to catch the Patriots. Tipped off by Jets security, an NFL security official confiscated a video camera and tape from a Patriots employee at the Meadowlands, and the evidence is believed to be damning. Commissioner Roger Goodell hasn't made a final decision, according to a high-level source, but he wants to resolve the issue ASAP. A league spokesman refuted an ESPN report last night that said Goodell already has determined that the Patriots violated league rules. An announcement could be made by the end of the week. The Patriots, who will have a chance to present their side to Goodell by Friday, could be stripped of multiple draft choices and/or fined heavily. Matt Estrella, 26, a Patriots video assistant, was nabbed just before halftime of the Jets' 38-14 loss on opening day. He allegedly videotaped hand signals from the Jets' defensive coaches on the sideline, defying an edict from Goodell, who warned teams before the season that he wouldn't tolerate cheating. Several teams have suspected the Patriots of stealing signs. So did the Jets, thanks to Mangini. "(The Jets) knew they did it," the person with knowledge of the situation said. "They caught the guy a year ago, but couldn't do anything about it. When Eric came, he said that's what they used to do. Bill is going to be (ticked) at Eric. He kissed and told." The cameraman, wearing a team polo shirt under the league-mandated sideline photographer's vest, was stopped by security as he tried to enter the New England locker room before halftime, sources said. An animated discussion ensued, involving league security, Jets security and Patriots security. The dispute, which occurred in the bowels of the stadium, lasted more than an hour, virtually the entire second half. At one point, it became so heated that New Jersey state troopers were summoned as a precaution, a source said. The Jets apparently were trying to confiscate the videotape, which wound up in the possession of NFL security. The tape was placed in a box, sealed and forwarded to the league. "He looked scared to death," one source said of Estrella.



Duane Sampson -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 4:20:10 PM)

The Providence Journal reports San Diego Chargers RB LaDainian Tomlinson proved that his bad feelings toward HC Bill Belichick and the New England Patriots have not subsided. Asked about the claims that New England may have videotaped signals, the running back smirked. "I think that the Patriots live by the saying 'If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying.' I think they live off that statement and nothing surprises me really," said Tomlinson, the reigning league MVP. "I’m not surprised because you keep hearing the different stories (and) people complaining about the stuff that they do. You know, so I’m not surprised." After the Pats’ upset win in San Diego in the divisional round of the playoffs, Tomlinson said New England had no class, and that it started with their coach. Tomlinson, named NFL’s man of the year with New Orleans QB Drew Brees after last season, and Belichick supposedly kissed and made up at the Pro Bowl a few weeks later. Clearly, Tomlinson has torn up that truce. New England plays San Diego in its home opener on Sunday night.



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