RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens)

RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (Full Version)

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panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/12/2011 7:37:37 PM)
He had 3 guys on his roster who can play PG, in spite of one transferring away in the off-season. How many teams have great 3rd string point guards?

djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/12/2011 8:10:43 PM)
Are you counting Hoffarber or something? Either way, again, the injuries were not handled well. Nolen/Joseph, no Nolen/Joseph, there's no excuse for how this team played down the stretch. At some point Tubby needs to be held accountable.

panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/12/2011 8:17:53 PM)
Ahanmisi was the third PG. The stretch run was ugly, but having one veteran backcourt player (and the freshman are more role players than future stars) will do that to you.

djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/12/2011 8:26:46 PM)
Either way, again, Tubby's overall body of work has been far less than impressive, thus far.

Jake Carlson -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/12/2011 9:15:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer We had an injured Freshman (Mo) and a Redshirt Frosh (Elliason) better than either center that played last year....that is why Iverson is transferring. Plus when you add Mo getting hurt, Nolen getting hurt, and Joseph transferring.....I just can't blame Tubby. Plus we had to get major contributions from Hollins, Ahamisi, and Armelin (3 frosh) who weren't ready. I have a couple issues with your "defense" of Tubby: 1. If Eliason is better than the other centers, why is he redshirting? 2. Why is Tubby not to blame for transfers? He's either recruiting the wrong players or he's not handling them properly. The only transfer that you can't blame on Tubby was Carter.

Jake Carlson -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/12/2011 9:17:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: panndder Ahanmisi was the third PG. The stretch run was ugly, but having one veteran backcourt player (and the freshman are more role players than future stars) will do that to you. Doesn't it bother you to admit that about his recruiting class?

djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/12/2011 9:34:39 PM)
Exactly. I don't think "off the court issues" should just be thrown out the window. At some point, Tubby has to take some of the blame there. Like you say, he's either recruiting the wrong guys in the first place (which is a problem) or he's not creating a disciplined environment that they can thrive in and find success (which is also a problem).

panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/12/2011 10:38:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jake Carlson quote: ORIGINAL: panndder Ahanmisi was the third PG. The stretch run was ugly, but having one veteran backcourt player (and the freshman are more role players than future stars) will do that to you. Doesn't it bother you to admit that about his recruiting class? The only potential stars in the making Tubby has recruited (or inherited) here are Sampson, Joseph, White, Williams, and now Andre Hollins. Connecticut rode one star and a bunch of good role players. Again, have realistic expectations. You can't have a starting lineup of #1 overall recruits because by the time you get a 5th your first one is graduated. [;)]

djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/12/2011 11:20:46 PM)
Lamb is a better player than anyone on the Gophers roster. As is Oriakhi IMO.

panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/12/2011 11:42:49 PM)
A case can be made for player development and retention issues. I'm not seeing an issue with recruiting itself.

Jake Carlson -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/13/2011 1:04:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: panndder quote: ORIGINAL: Jake Carlson quote: ORIGINAL: panndder Ahanmisi was the third PG. The stretch run was ugly, but having one veteran backcourt player (and the freshman are more role players than future stars) will do that to you. Doesn't it bother you to admit that about his recruiting class? The only potential stars in the making Tubby has recruited (or inherited) here are Sampson, Joseph, White, Williams, and now Andre Hollins. Connecticut rode one star and a bunch of good role players. Again, have realistic expectations. You can't have a starting lineup of #1 overall recruits because by the time you get a 5th your first one is graduated. [;)] You have just pinpointed the problems with Tubby. Sampson and Williams haven't improved on their incoming talent and White and Joseph transferred. How does Tubby somehow escape blame for this? As long as you're comparing UConn, who is the Gophers' Kemba Walker? Before you answer, remember this was a guy who scored at will when his team needed him to this past year. Also, other than Mbakwe, which current Gopher player would see a minute of significant time on that UConn team? The guys you call role players for UConn would be the best players on MN roster.

Jake Carlson -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/13/2011 1:09:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: panndder A case can be made for player development and retention issues. I'm not seeing an issue with recruiting itself. Looking at various recruiting sources, Tubby's class consistently ranks in the bottom half of the big10 for 2011. This isn't an issue with you?

JT2 -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/13/2011 1:37:34 AM)
John Doe could recruit at Kentucky, or even Georgia. This has never been a strong suit for Tubby. Coaching-wise, he's too set in his outdated ways, and I seriously question his passion for the position on a non-contender team. I'd much rather have a young guy on the come-up, a guy that can coach, develop and teach the young players. You have to coach before you recruit.

Phil Riewer -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/13/2011 9:32:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jake Carlson quote: ORIGINAL: panndder Ahanmisi was the third PG. The stretch run was ugly, but having one veteran backcourt player (and the freshman are more role players than future stars) will do that to you. Doesn't it bother you to admit that about his recruiting class? You ready: 1) Joseph not a team player...a me player. He wanted it to be his team but it was Nolen's team. 2) Cobbs...3rd best pg and wanted PT---nothing to do with Tubby 3) Iverson...Sampson, Mo, Mbawke, Williams, and a redshirt will get more time. He wants to play. Some of these kids were stars and they go to a large pond and can't handle not being the star while for others they just want to play. A lot of teams have players transfer out. VCU's best player (Skeen) was a transfer from Georgia Tech. Tubby's failure was not getting the other Joseph brother...plain and simple. Now, complain all you want but out of the whole team last year....only Mbawkwe, Nolen, and Joseph could get their own shot and only Hofarber was a good outside shot....blame Tubby all you want but unless you play defense like UConn or Butler you need to put the ball in the bucket. Once we lost Nolen and Joseph and moved Hofarber to PG....it was inevitable. We lost our best wing defender and once that happened we didn't have the offense to compete. As long as Nolen was injured we were not going any where as Nolen was also our most important (wing) defensive player. Joseph would have gotten us into the big dance but we were not going anywhere w/o Nolen.

Jake Carlson -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/13/2011 10:48:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer You ready: 1) Joseph not a team player...a me player. He wanted it to be his team but it was Nolen's team. 2) Cobbs...3rd best pg and wanted PT---nothing to do with Tubby 3) Iverson...Sampson, Mo, Mbawke, Williams, and a redshirt will get more time. He wants to play. Some of these kids were stars and they go to a large pond and can't handle not being the star while for others they just want to play. A lot of teams have players transfer out. VCU's best player (Skeen) was a transfer from Georgia Tech. Tubby's failure was not getting the other Joseph brother...plain and simple. Yes, all schools deal with a transfer here and there but five in less than two years is indicative of a problem. You can also excuse away each one using specific reasons but it has to come down to the coach. As I said before, Carter is the only one that can't be blamed on Tubby. Did Tubby not do proper due diligence on these guys before offering them scholarships or did he not manage them properly to make sure they're all being challenged and inspired? The number of transfers this program has had in a short amount of time shows a pattern not an exception. Enough excuses and enough refusing to acknowledge there is a problem. Also, it's not like Tubby is the only coach to have to deal with star high school players adjusting to their new role on a college team. Any coach recruiting a kid in the top 300-400 high school players has to deal with that. Lastly, coincidentally, in your specific example of a coach dealing with a good player transferring, did you happen to notice that coach was fired last month?

Phil Riewer -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/13/2011 11:17:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jake Carlson quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer You ready: 1) Joseph not a team player...a me player. He wanted it to be his team but it was Nolen's team. 2) Cobbs...3rd best pg and wanted PT---nothing to do with Tubby 3) Iverson...Sampson, Mo, Mbawke, Williams, and a redshirt will get more time. He wants to play. Some of these kids were stars and they go to a large pond and can't handle not being the star while for others they just want to play. A lot of teams have players transfer out. VCU's best player (Skeen) was a transfer from Georgia Tech. Tubby's failure was not getting the other Joseph brother...plain and simple. Yes, all schools deal with a transfer here and there but five in less than two years is indicative of a problem. You can also excuse away each one using specific reasons but it has to come down to the coach. As I said before, Carter is the only one that can't be blamed on Tubby. Did Tubby not do proper due diligence on these guys before offering them scholarships or did he not manage them properly to make sure they're all being challenged and inspired? The number of transfers this program has had in a short amount of time shows a pattern not an exception. Enough excuses and enough refusing to acknowledge there is a problem. Also, it's not like Tubby is the only coach to have to deal with star high school players adjusting to their new role on a college team. Any coach recruiting a kid in the top 300-400 high school players has to deal with that. Lastly, coincidentally, in your specific example of a coach dealing with a good player transferring, did you happen to notice that coach was fired last month? Joseph was the only difference maker that transferred out....it wasn't a mass exodus like what happened to Pam Borton. Blame Tubby if you want but sometimes there are good fits and bad fits....Royce White is a a lottery pick before he plays a second of bball but he will be in his third year already, does that equal Tubby's fault or Royce's fault?

djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/13/2011 12:09:56 PM)
You're kind of getting to the heart of what me and Jake are saying; 1 or 2 "problems", fine. But when it becomes as many as it's been, some of that blame has to fall on Tubby. And again, this is not isolated at Minnesota. He did not do all that well at Kentucky either. He turned a title program into an also-ran. And you talk about defense and shooting being problems. Doesn't that fall on Tubby? Shooting is something that can be corrected with hard work, but perhaps he's just not recruiting the right kids. And defense, IMO, is all 2 things; A) will from the player, and B) coaching. Either he's getting the wrong kind of player (A), or he's not coaching effectively (B). I like Tubby and want him to succeed. I was happy with the hire as I thought it provided a shot in the arm. But he has been utterly disappointing so far; let's call a spade a spade. I wouldn't have had a problem with the U letting him go this offseason, but at this point, he's got this year and no more. If the Gophers don't at least win one tourney game this year, he should be gone. No more excuses.

Phil Riewer -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/13/2011 1:38:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz You're kind of getting to the heart of what me and Jake are saying; 1 or 2 "problems", fine. But when it becomes as many as it's been, some of that blame has to fall on Tubby. And again, this is not isolated at Minnesota. He did not do all that well at Kentucky either. He turned a title program into an also-ran. And you talk about defense and shooting being problems. Doesn't that fall on Tubby? Shooting is something that can be corrected with hard work, but perhaps he's just not recruiting the right kids. And defense, IMO, is all 2 things; A) will from the player, and B) coaching. Either he's getting the wrong kind of player (A), or he's not coaching effectively (B). I like Tubby and want him to succeed. I was happy with the hire as I thought it provided a shot in the arm. But he has been utterly disappointing so far; let's call a spade a spade. I wouldn't have had a problem with the U letting him go this offseason, but at this point, he's got this year and no more. If the Gophers don't at least win one tourney game this year, he should be gone. No more excuses. Fair enough...but our defense was built on Nolen and our offense was built on Mbawke, Nolen, Joseph, and Hofarber and with those four it was a young team....

djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/13/2011 1:40:09 PM)
A defense should never be built on one PG player. That's just a terrible recipe for defensive success.

Phil Riewer -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/15/2011 9:24:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz A defense should never be built on one PG player. That's just a terrible recipe for defensive success. If your best defender is your pg---how else does it work?

djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/15/2011 10:10:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz A defense should never be built on one PG player. That's just a terrible recipe for defensive success. If your best defender is your pg---how else does it work? kind of my point.

panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/15/2011 11:01:14 AM)
You're not allowed to have a best perimeter defender? [image]http://talkvikes.gorge.net/image/s12.gif[/image]

djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/15/2011 11:19:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: panndder You're not allowed to have a best perimeter defender? [image]http://talkvikes.gorge.net/image/s12.gif[/image] No. I'm saying when the best defender on your team is your PG, you probably have a bad defense.

panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/15/2011 1:14:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz quote: ORIGINAL: panndder You're not allowed to have a best perimeter defender? [:-] No. I'm saying when the best defender on your team is your PG, you probably have a bad defense. I don't follow.

JT2 -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (4/17/2011 3:03:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: panndder quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz quote: ORIGINAL: panndder You're not allowed to have a best perimeter defender? [:-] No. I'm saying when the best defender on your team is your PG, you probably have a bad defense. I don't follow. The one thing the kid was good at is now a bad thing? Personally, I dig a PG with great defensive skills. Should we list the other teams that have standout defensive PG's?

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