quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

I'd put George Foster in before Jim Rice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Reasoning:

Randy Johnson: arguably the best pitcher in my lifetime
Pedro Martinez arguably the best pitcher in my lifetime. If I'm giving a ball to one guy for a game, I'm giving it to this guy or the guy above. In my lifetime.
Tim Raines: Amazing guy underappreciaed OBP machine. A better player than Tony Gwynn.
John Smoltz: One of the best pitchers in my lifetime. Not far behind in the "give this guy the ball" case above.
Craig Biggio: Look at the numbers and positional value. Hell of a career. Stacks up very well with Jeter, for instance.
Mike Piazza: One of the best catchers of all-time, steroids or not.
Jeff Bagwell: Similar to Biggio, look at his career numbers. Could care less if he did steroids or not, and there has been no proof against him anyway. Totally hypocritical by voters.
Barry Bonds: Best player of my lifetime and arguably a top 5 player all-time. Again, steroids or no.
Roger Clemens: Top 10 pitcher all time, even though he's also a top 10 douchebag.
Curt Schilling: Very, very good career, and as above, only a few guys I'd take above him to start a big game in my lifetime.
Edgar Martinez: Best DH of all-time. Great numbers. Would make it if he was a "bad" 1b. Double standard.
Jeff Kent: One of the best 2b of all time. Changed the game in some ways with his offense from that position.
Alan Trammell: Same as above. If Ozzie Smith is in, Trammell should be in.
Mark McGwire: Best pure power hitter of my lifetime, and one of the best of all time. Again, steroids or no. Saved the game and made a lot of people a lot of money for the last 20 years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

I'd put George Foster in before Jim Rice.

Absolutely

Winner

MVP

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

I'd put George Foster in before Jim Rice.

Absolutely

Winner

MVP

Why did he garner such little support? Too much competition on his own team? I don't think that should work against a guy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

We all have our own opinion on "HOF" worthiness.

I think that steroids cheapened stats for a while and now it'll be a much lower standard for pitchers in this era to get in the HOF.

I agree Jack Morris should be in the Hall. Will need a lot of help. I'd have put him in before Jim Rice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

Don't forget a player's disposition helps/doesn't help the cause.

Biggio was a nice guy. FOr the most part, Kent was not. plays a huge part.

Positional value should not be a consideration for HOF. We're not introducing fantasy sabre stats here you youngsters!! [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

We all have our own opinion on "HOF" worthiness.

I think that steroids cheapened stats for a while and now it'll be a much lower standard for pitchers in this era to get in the HOF.

I agree Jack Morris should be in the Hall. Will need a lot of help. I'd have put him in before Jim Rice.

I'd put him in before Rice, as I would with about 100 other guys. But I still wouldn't have Morris in. Very good pitcher. But not HOF worthy IMO.

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Reasoning:

Randy Johnson: arguably the best pitcher in my lifetime
Pedro Martinez arguably the best pitcher in my lifetime. If I'm giving a ball to one guy for a game, I'm giving it to this guy or the guy above. In my lifetime.
Tim Raines: Amazing guy underappreciaed OBP machine. A better player than Tony Gwynn.
John Smoltz: One of the best pitchers in my lifetime. Not far behind in the "give this guy the ball" case above.
Craig Biggio: Look at the numbers and positional value. Hell of a career. Stacks up very well with Jeter, for instance.
Mike Piazza: One of the best catchers of all-time, steroids or not.
Jeff Bagwell: Similar to Biggio, look at his career numbers. Could care less if he did steroids or not, and there has been no proof against him anyway. Totally hypocritical by voters.
Barry Bonds: Best player of my lifetime and arguably a top 5 player all-time. Again, steroids or no.
Roger Clemens: Top 10 pitcher all time, even though he's also a top 10 douchebag.
Curt Schilling: Very, very good career, and as above, only a few guys I'd take above him to start a big game in my lifetime.
Edgar Martinez: Best DH of all-time. Great numbers. Would make it if he was a "bad" 1b. Double standard.
Jeff Kent: One of the best 2b of all time. Changed the game in some ways with his offense from that position.
Alan Trammell: Same as above. If Ozzie Smith is in, Trammell should be in.
Mark McGwire: Best pure power hitter of my lifetime, and one of the best of all time. Again, steroids or no. Saved the game and made a lot of people a lot of money for the last 20 years.

I buy all of those, except I'm iffy on Trammell and McGwire. I've gone back and forth on Trammell. I would have no issue if he ever got in (but he won't). It seems McGwire saved his career by taking Andro. That's my issue with him. I guess maybe that's not fair, because Piazza was probably roiding all along. Would have thought McGwire was too, and he probably was, but he somehow found the right combination to overcome injuries and get his career back on track.

I'm not a big Schilling backer, but I guess the numbers are probably there. I may take Mussina over Schilling. The ketchup on the sock thing was just too much.

Agree on Edgar. Does that mean if Killebrew was a DH, as he should have been, he doesn't get in either? Frank Thomas stumbled and bumbled at 1B for the better part of a decade and he gets points for that? Why?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

Don't forget a player's disposition helps/doesn't help the cause.

Biggio was a nice guy. FOr the most part, Kent was not. plays a huge part.

Positional value should not be a consideration for HOF. We're not introducing fantasy sabre stats here you youngsters!! [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

Don't forget a player's disposition helps/doesn't help the cause.

Biggio was a nice guy. FOr the most part, Kent was not. plays a huge part.

Positional value should not be a consideration for HOF. We're not introducing fantasy sabre stats here you youngsters!! [:D]

Uh oh Ed. Without positional value, Joe stands zero chance. [;)]

Are you sure you're not trying to reel Dustin in too?

Positional value has to matter to some degree, otherwise Ozzie doesn't get in. Put Ozzie Smith at 1B or in the OF and he has no chance at the HOF.

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Reasoning:

Randy Johnson: arguably the best pitcher in my lifetime
Pedro Martinez arguably the best pitcher in my lifetime. If I'm giving a ball to one guy for a game, I'm giving it to this guy or the guy above. In my lifetime.
Tim Raines: Amazing guy underappreciaed OBP machine. A better player than Tony Gwynn.
John Smoltz: One of the best pitchers in my lifetime. Not far behind in the "give this guy the ball" case above.
Craig Biggio: Look at the numbers and positional value. Hell of a career. Stacks up very well with Jeter, for instance.
Mike Piazza: One of the best catchers of all-time, steroids or not.
Jeff Bagwell: Similar to Biggio, look at his career numbers. Could care less if he did steroids or not, and there has been no proof against him anyway. Totally hypocritical by voters.
Barry Bonds: Best player of my lifetime and arguably a top 5 player all-time. Again, steroids or no.
Roger Clemens: Top 10 pitcher all time, even though he's also a top 10 douchebag.
Curt Schilling: Very, very good career, and as above, only a few guys I'd take above him to start a big game in my lifetime.
Edgar Martinez: Best DH of all-time. Great numbers. Would make it if he was a "bad" 1b. Double standard.
Jeff Kent: One of the best 2b of all time. Changed the game in some ways with his offense from that position.
Alan Trammell: Same as above. If Ozzie Smith is in, Trammell should be in.
Mark McGwire: Best pure power hitter of my lifetime, and one of the best of all time. Again, steroids or no. Saved the game and made a lot of people a lot of money for the last 20 years.

I buy all of those, except I'm iffy on Trammell and McGwire. I've gone back and forth on Trammell. I would have no issue if he ever got in (but he won't). It seems McGwire saved his career by taking Andro. That's my issue with him. I guess maybe that's not fair, because Piazza was probably roiding all along. Would have thought McGwire was too, and he probably was, but he somehow found the right combination to overcome injuries and get his career back on track.

I'm not a big Schilling backer, but I guess the numbers are probably there. I may take Mussina over Schilling. The ketchup on the sock thing was just too much.

Agree on Edgar. Does that mean if Killebrew was a DH, as he should have been, he doesn't get in either? Frank Thomas stumbled and bumbled at 1B for the better part of a decade and he gets points for that? Why?

Exactly. It pays to be a bad, defensive liability at 1b vs. a DH. That makes no sense. Plus, we're already allowing closers in that pitch 60 innings/yr. A great DH has a WAY bigger effect on a team than that.

As for the steroids part, you know my take on that Matt. I truly believe that just about all these guys were taking stuff (including and maybe ESPECIALLY pitchers) and probably still are. So there's zero penalty for me on that. Why is steroids different than doctoring a ball, or greenies that have been taken for 60-70 years? I realize they're not the same, but either way you're gaining an "unfair" advantage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

Don't forget a player's disposition helps/doesn't help the cause.

Biggio was a nice guy. FOr the most part, Kent was not. plays a huge part.

Positional value should not be a consideration for HOF. We're not introducing fantasy sabre stats here you youngsters!! [:D]

Positional value ALWAYS has merit. Always. Would Ozzie Smith be in the HOF if he played 1b? Look at his numbers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Reasoning:

Randy Johnson: arguably the best pitcher in my lifetime
Pedro Martinez arguably the best pitcher in my lifetime. If I'm giving a ball to one guy for a game, I'm giving it to this guy or the guy above. In my lifetime.
Tim Raines: Amazing guy underappreciaed OBP machine. A better player than Tony Gwynn.
John Smoltz: One of the best pitchers in my lifetime. Not far behind in the "give this guy the ball" case above.
Craig Biggio: Look at the numbers and positional value. Hell of a career. Stacks up very well with Jeter, for instance.
Mike Piazza: One of the best catchers of all-time, steroids or not.
Jeff Bagwell: Similar to Biggio, look at his career numbers. Could care less if he did steroids or not, and there has been no proof against him anyway. Totally hypocritical by voters.
Barry Bonds: Best player of my lifetime and arguably a top 5 player all-time. Again, steroids or no.
Roger Clemens: Top 10 pitcher all time, even though he's also a top 10 douchebag.
Curt Schilling: Very, very good career, and as above, only a few guys I'd take above him to start a big game in my lifetime.
Edgar Martinez: Best DH of all-time. Great numbers. Would make it if he was a "bad" 1b. Double standard.
Jeff Kent: One of the best 2b of all time. Changed the game in some ways with his offense from that position.
Alan Trammell: Same as above. If Ozzie Smith is in, Trammell should be in.
Mark McGwire: Best pure power hitter of my lifetime, and one of the best of all time. Again, steroids or no. Saved the game and made a lot of people a lot of money for the last 20 years.

I buy all of those, except I'm iffy on Trammell and McGwire. I've gone back and forth on Trammell. I would have no issue if he ever got in (but he won't). It seems McGwire saved his career by taking Andro. That's my issue with him. I guess maybe that's not fair, because Piazza was probably roiding all along. Would have thought McGwire was too, and he probably was, but he somehow found the right combination to overcome injuries and get his career back on track.

I'm not a big Schilling backer, but I guess the numbers are probably there. I may take Mussina over Schilling. The ketchup on the sock thing was just too much.

Agree on Edgar. Does that mean if Killebrew was a DH, as he should have been, he doesn't get in either? Frank Thomas stumbled and bumbled at 1B for the better part of a decade and he gets points for that? Why?

Exactly. It pays to be a bad, defensive liability at 1b vs. a DH. That makes no sense. Plus, we're already allowing closers in that pitch 60 innings/yr. A great DH has a WAY bigger effect on a team than that.

As for the steroids part, you know my take on that Matt. I truly believe that just about all these guys were taking stuff (including and maybe ESPECIALLY pitchers) and probably still are. So there's zero penalty for me on that. Why is steroids different than doctoring a ball, or greenies that have been taken for 60-70 years? I realize they're not the same, but either way you're gaining an "unfair" advantage.

I agree with you. Not sure why I've singled out McGwire. Maybe because I associate him with Sosa. Shouldn't you support Sosa's candidacy as well?

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

I know I'm crazy, but the day they announce HOF results is one of the best days of the year for me.

Randy Johnson is gonna get the highest percentage this year, right? Although it's possible Pedro pulls the upset. Depends if more people penalize Johnson for his sketchy early career. But I think more people will penalize Pedro for his relatively short career/injury history/shorter peak/fade-out at end of career.