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twinsfan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 10:05:19 AM)

It appears Sosa was the best defensive RF in baseball in the '90s.




MDK -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 10:05:20 AM)

Buster Olney's take on the antiquated ruled for HOF voters.......the 10 names per ballot restriction
Maybe this was posted already.


Why I'm abstaining from HOF voting
December, 4, 2014
12/04/14
10:23
AM ET
By Buster Olney | ESPN Insider
3K5COMMENTS91EMAILPRINT
Mike Mussina spent each of his 18 seasons in the most treacherous waters pitchers have ever faced, among the whitecaps of what will always be remembered as an era of rampant steroid use -- and in the offense-rich American League East, no less. He was a fly ball pitcher who called two homer-happy ballparks -- Camden Yards and Yankee Stadium -- his home during his career.

It’s as if he navigated his way daily through one of those monstrous marble-hard golf courses in Scotland covered with bunkers that have names (such as St. Andrews' Road Hole Bunker), as compared to the Executive Par-3s of 2014. In 2000, Mussina’s last season with the Orioles, 47 hitters mashed 30 or more homers; in 2014, only 11 batters reached 30 homers.

Mussina finished his career with a 3.68 ERA and is 19th all time in strikeouts. He also is 24th in WAR among pitchers, and most of the guys ahead of him on the list are in the Hall of Fame.

But his chances for induction will improve slightly this year because I’m abstaining from the voting for the first time, and won’t submit a ballot. The same is true for Curt Schilling, and Tim Raines, and at least two others who I think should be inducted into the Hall of Fame.

To repeat: I think Mussina, Schilling and Raines and others are Hall of Famers, but it’s better for their candidacy if I don’t cast a ballot.

If that sounds backward, well, that’s how the Hall of Fame voting has evolved, squeezed between rules that badly need to be updated and the progression of the candidates linked to the use of performance-enhancing drugs. The process needs to be pruned to allow voters to get back to answering a simple question about each candidate: Was his career worthy of the Hall of Fame?

When I started covering Major League Baseball, getting the opportunity to participate in the Hall of Fame voting was something to really look forward to, a nice carrot through the long days of spring training, the travel delays of the summer and extra-inning games. After being a member of the Baseball Writers' Association of America for 10 years, receiving a blank Hall of Fame ballot for the first time, with voting instructions and pages of notes on each candidate also in the envelope, carried the same excitement as receiving a thick college admission letter.

So it's incredible that declining to cast a ballot is even a consideration. But in light of where we are, it seems like the right thing to do for the candidates involved, until the rules are adjusted.

For years, the rule that each writer can vote for no more than 10 candidates was probably irrelevant; it certainly was for me, given that I usually voted for anywhere from four to seven players. It's not clear why the "Rule of 10" was put in place, but I suspect it was originally designed to prevent writers from flooding their ballots with names of players who had no chance of being elected, just so they could report to their buddy that they had voted for them.

A decade ago, nobody could have anticipated the quandary that has developed because of this rule, and because of the debate surrounding the steroid-era candidates.


Mark McGwire received just 11 percent of the Hall of Fame votes last year.
Mark McGwire first appeared on the ballot in December 2006, five years after he retired, and he became the first real test case for what the voters would do with players either directly linked with performance-enhancing drugs or suspected of doing them.

As written in this space many times, I think all players should be judged within the context of the era in which they played, and during McGwire's career, the sport was saturated with performance-enhancing drugs, largely because over the period of about 15 years, no one within the institution of baseball -- not the union leaders, not MLB owners, not the commissioner, not the clean players, nor the media that covered the sport -- aggressively addressed the growing problem. Through that inaction, what evolved was a chemical Frankenstein of a game. Like it or not, that's what the sport was in that time: no drug testing, lots of drug use, lots of drug users, lots of money being made by everybody. (And by the way, no team, baseball executive or player has offered to give back the money made in that time.)

The idea of retroactive morality is ridiculous, especially given that the folks in the sport had a strong idea by the mid-'90s that there was a growing problem and nobody did anything about it. Here's Jose Canseco being asked about his steroid use on national television before the 1988 playoffs, right after Olympic sprinter Ben Johnson was stripped of his gold medal. And here's a Bob Nightengale story from 1995 in which then-interim commissioner Bud Selig was asked about the problem, and made mention of a "private meeting" the year before. Yet serious testing and penalties really weren't in place until 2006.

McGwire was a star during that time, with 583 homers, including his record-setting 70 homers in 1998, so I voted for him. That was a minority opinion, for sure: 23.5 percent of the 545 voters cast ballots for him, far short of the 75 percent needed for induction, but more than the 5 percent required to remain on the ballot. The McGwire test case continued, however, because his candidacy carried over to the next ballot, and so did that of Rafael Palmeiro and others, until they became stacked up like planes on a runway, their Hall of Fame situation stuck in a weird sort of purgatory.

This is how the rule that limits writers to 10 players became a serious problem. Roger Clemens became eligible, and Barry Bonds. Jeff Bagwell and Mike Piazza also hit the ballot, and while there is no indisputable evidence of steroid use by those two as there is for Palmeiro, who was suspended in 2005 after a positive test, a high number of voters apparently withheld votes for them because of suspicion of PED use. The career numbers for Bagwell and Piazza are overwhelmingly worthy for Hall of Fame election, but Bagwell has never finished higher than 59.6 percent in his four years on the ballot; Piazza, the all-time leader in homers for catchers, got only 57.8 percent of the vote in his first year.

So the list of serious candidates grew well beyond 10 spots. Last year I counted 17 players I thought were Hall of Fame-worthy, from Greg Maddux to Tom Glavine to Craig Biggio. But because of the Rule of 10, I had to leave off seven players who I believe are of Hall of Fame caliber. That included Mussina, Schilling and Raines. For the first time since McGwire became eligible, I didn't cast a vote for him.

The way I picked among the 17 was to rank them in order among the first nine, from the best player on down, regardless of the PED question. I also included Jack Morris, who was in his last year of eligibility; I wanted to give Morris a fair last shot with my ballot, knowing that Mussina, Raines, Schilling and Jeff Kent probably would get enough votes to stay on the ballot for this winter.

But really, that didn't seem right, because there's nothing in the voting rules that suggest I should weigh the candidates against each other, or must consider the landscape of the ballot. There is no guidance for picking 10 players from a 17-man field of worthy candidates. There is only this:
"Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

The practical reality was that I wasn't deciding on whether to vote for Mussina based on career performance. My vote was predicated entirely on his standing among an extraordinary volume of candidates, from Maddux to Glavine to Bonds to Piazza to Frank Thomas. (Let's again dismiss the notion that the "character" was ever used by writers as a serious criterion for election before McGwire's name appeared on the 2007 ballot. We all know the stories about some of the racists, alleged cheats, drunkards and PED users who already are in the Hall of Fame.)

And while I think Schilling and Mussina are Hall of Fame-worthy, my ballot hurt them. My ballot counted against their percentage. Five hundred seventy-one voters cast ballots last year, and my ballot was among the 450 that didn't have Mussina included, which lowered his percentage.

That makes no sense.

The Rule of 10 seemed to factor heavily in the voting last year, dragging down the vote percentages for everyone from Morris to Clemens to Alan Trammell, whose numbers plummeted from 33.6 percent of the vote to just 20.6 percent. Clearly Trammell wasn't being judged based on his career; he lost votes last winter because of the choices made under the Rule of 10.

Maddux was a slam-dunk candidate after posting 355 career wins and four Cy Young Awards, but he was left off 16 ballots entirely. I don't know who all of those 16 were, but a couple of writers mentioned to me privately that in dealing with the confines of the ballot limit, they thought about not voting for Maddux and Glavine, knowing that they'd probably get in anyway. It would be a shame to think that Maddux lost any votes because of the Rule of 10 problem.

During the summer, the Hall of Fame adjusted some of its rules. Voters are now required to register to receive a ballot, writers can lose the right to vote, and players could remain on the ballot for a shorter period of time.

Surprisingly, however, the Rule of 10 was not altered. The same impossible math remains: I'm counting 15 worthy candidates right now for those 10 spots. Other writers are telling me they see anywhere from 12 to 20 worthy candidates, which means that in their eyes, they'll be leaving players they feel are Hall of Fame-worthy off their ballots. It means that as great as Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez were -- both should be unanimous, in light of their accomplishments -- they might lose votes as writers struggle with the question of how to deal with the ballot guideline that seems completely arbitrary. (Why not a ballot limit of 11? Why not 12? Why not eight? Why not six? Is it 10 only because it's a round number?)

Maybe I should've figured it out last year, but this puzzle cannot be solved. There's no way to judge each candidate strictly on his merits given the current ballot limitations, no fair way to vote.

I can't stand the protest ballots we've seen in the past, when someone signs a blank ballot that counts as a vote against all candidates. That's unfair. I've hated to hear the stories of voters who haven't voted for a player because they didn't like them personally. The voting shouldn't be about the writer; it should be only about the players and whether they're worthy of induction.

And I can't stand the idea of casting a ballot that works against players that I think should be inducted, such as Mussina, Schilling or others. So as much as it has been an honor in the past to participate in the voting, I'll abstain, and hope that in the future the rules change.




djskillz -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 10:05:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Dustin, look more closely at the numbers. Sosa's numbers are more than HOF worthy. His HOF Monitor is 202, and a likely HOFer is 100.

Check out the speed numbers. Not to mention the 606 HR. Sosa also had much more defensive value than McGwire ever did, especially early in Sosa's career.

I think under your criteria you need to start supporting Sosa for the HOF. Or at least reconsider him.


I think he's close. I just don't think he's quite there. McGwire was a much better hitter, and Sosa was a bad defender for awhile. Not a big believe in the HOF monitor numbers. I think there are better indicators.

Miles, good stuff. Buster's always great.




djskillz -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 10:06:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

It appears Sosa was the best defensive RF in baseball in the '90s.


Really? No way I buy that. Will have to dig some more.




djskillz -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 10:08:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

Don't forget a player's disposition helps/doesn't help the cause.

Biggio was a nice guy. FOr the most part, Kent was not. plays a huge part.

Positional value should not be a consideration for HOF. We're not introducing fantasy sabre stats here you youngsters!! [:D]


Positional value ALWAYS has merit. Always. Would Ozzie Smith be in the HOF if he played 1b? Look at his numbers.


But Ozzie would never be a 1B

If you mean Positional value as in "He's a SS did he do something that was >>>> at that position?" Then yes, that's positional value.

Kent/Biggio/Bagwell/Trammell don't cut it for me for doing something>>>>>

They played a long time. Whoopee. If you're slightly above average, the numbers will be "HOF" I guess.


That's what positional value means to me. Cal Ripken's not a HOF'er at 1b. But he was GREAT for a SS. Not everyone can play SS or 2b or CF or C or 3b. That lack of talent makes those guys great IMO. Biggo/Kent/Trammell were certainly a few of the best EVER at their positions. And look at the numbers on Bagwell; he's up there for 1b. 149 OPS+




twinsfan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 10:11:04 AM)

Good article, Miles. Thanks for posting.




djskillz -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 10:13:25 AM)

Matt, it appears Sosa was very good defensively for the first 5 years or so of his career with the Cubs (after being bad with the White Sox), then was very bad for the rest of his career. Overall a negative defensive value for his career. I'll stick with my original take on him. [:D]

Seriously, I think he "just" misses the cut for me. And I'll admit; I just never liked him--like Peyton/Brady you were either a Sosa guy or a McGwire guy and I was McGwire all the way--and that probably has a little bit of a factor for me. Wouldn't be upset if he got in, but wouldn't push for him either.




twinsfan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 10:14:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

It appears Sosa was the best defensive RF in baseball in the '90s.


Really? No way I buy that. Will have to dig some more.

Total Zone Runs as RF (s.1954) s c a p y
1991 AL 15 (1st)
1993 NL 13 (3rd)
1994 NL 15 (2nd)
1995 NL 23 (1st)
1996 NL 27 (1st)
1997 NL 17 (1st)
2004 NL 6 (2nd)


Range Factor/9Inn as RF (s.1954)† †s c a p y
1990 AL 2.35 (5th)
1991 AL 2.58 (1st)
1993 NL 2.28 (5th)
1994 NL 2.38 (3rd)
1995 NL 2.34 (1st)
1996 NL 2.22 (4th)
1997 NL 2.17 (5th)
1998 NL 2.21 (4th)
1999 NL 2.41 (3rd)
2001 NL 2.17 (4th)


Range Factor/Game as RF (s.1954) s c a p y
1990 AL 2.15 (4th)
1994 NL 2.27 (2nd)
1995 NL 2.31 (1st)
1996 NL 2.16 (4th)
1997 NL 2.12 (3rd)
1998 NL 2.17 (1st)
1999 NL 2.24 (1st)
2000 NL 2.08 (4th)
2001 NL 2.09 (3rd)

Fielding % as RF (s.1954) s c a p y
1993 NL .981 (4th)
1997 NL .977 (5th)
1998 NL .974 (5th)
2001 NL .982 (5th)
2004 NL .984 (3rd)

Total Zone Runs as OF s c a p y
1991 AL 15 (4th)
1993 NL 18 (3rd)
1994 NL 15 (3rd)
1995 NL 23 (1st)
1996 NL 27 (2nd)
1997 NL 17 (4th)

His career proves that fielding % for OF is meaningless, as he ranks very highly in all the other defensive stats, but "mysteriously" struggles in fielding % (most likely because he's getting to balls that nobody else is).




djskillz -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 10:16:07 AM)

-8.1 defensive WAR value over his career, according to FanGraphs. Though very, very strong for that 5-year stretch.




twinsfan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 10:16:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Matt, it appears Sosa was very good defensively for the first 5 years or so of his career with the Cubs (after being bad with the White Sox), then was very bad for the rest of his career. Overall a negative defensive value for his career. I'll stick with my original take on him. [:D]

Well of course he wasn't very good at defense after Age 31. Not many OF are. His defensive value ends up negative because he played for a long time in the NL, where he couldn't DH. I find it hard to justify penalizing a guy for having a long career.




twinsfan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 10:17:43 AM)

Why am I arguing for Sosa for the HOF?

I feel like Pete.




djskillz -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 10:21:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Matt, it appears Sosa was very good defensively for the first 5 years or so of his career with the Cubs (after being bad with the White Sox), then was very bad for the rest of his career. Overall a negative defensive value for his career. I'll stick with my original take on him. [:D]

Well of course he wasn't very good at defense after Age 31. Not many OF are. His defensive value ends up negative because he played for a long time in the NL, where he couldn't DH. I find it hard to justify penalizing a guy for having a long career.


Still counts. It's still his overall value to his team. Similarly, I can't give him a ton of credit for being really good defensively for a whopping 5 years...in RF.




Jim Frenette -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 10:59:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

A number of these guys were good. But HOF worthy?

The whole standard dropped when Jim Rice went in.


Bingo, I agree 100%




MDK -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 11:27:40 AM)

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/12115949/jayson-stark-explains-2015-hall-fame-ballot

Good article by Jayson Stark on the absurdity of the 10 rule for HOF ballots. He mentions and links Mike Berardino in the article.




djskillz -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 11:39:00 AM)

Great stuff again, Miles. Stark is dead-on. And this is a great reminder piece (linked to in the article) about the ridiculousness of the "anti-steroid" voter too:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/hof13/story/_/id/8826383/what-mlb-hall-fame-be




Trekgeekscott -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 12:11:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

We all have our own opinion on "HOF" worthiness.

I think that steroids cheapened stats for a while and now it'll be a much lower standard for pitchers in this era to get in the HOF.

I agree Jack Morris should be in the Hall. Will need a lot of help. I'd have put him in before Jim Rice.


Jack Morris had a contemporary named Dave Stieb who never got a sniff of consideration, but was every bit as good a pitcher.

Morris gets special consideration here and in Detroit, but he's no HOFer to me.




twinsfan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 12:20:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

We all have our own opinion on "HOF" worthiness.

I think that steroids cheapened stats for a while and now it'll be a much lower standard for pitchers in this era to get in the HOF.

I agree Jack Morris should be in the Hall. Will need a lot of help. I'd have put him in before Jim Rice.


Jack Morris had a contemporary named Dave Stieb who never got a sniff of consideration, but was every bit as good a pitcher.

Morris gets special consideration here and in Detroit, but he's no HOFer to me.

I don't remember. Did Stieb go to Japan after 1993 (age 35) or was he just done? (Other than his short return in 1998.)




twinsfan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 12:21:37 PM)

I was watching an MLB Network thing a few weeks ago and they were talking about the Year of the No Hitter. I don't remember what year it was...late 80s or early 90s. Anyway, Dave Stieb finally got his. Apparently he took about 5 no-hitters into the 9th inning before he finally finished one off.




twinsfan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 12:23:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

We all have our own opinion on "HOF" worthiness.

I think that steroids cheapened stats for a while and now it'll be a much lower standard for pitchers in this era to get in the HOF.

I agree Jack Morris should be in the Hall. Will need a lot of help. I'd have put him in before Jim Rice.


Jack Morris had a contemporary named Dave Stieb who never got a sniff of consideration, but was every bit as good a pitcher.

Morris gets special consideration here and in Detroit, but he's no HOFer to me.

I don't remember. Did Stieb go to Japan after 1993 (age 35) or was he just done? (Other than his short return in 1998.)

He retired because of back problems at Age 35.




twinsfan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 12:27:41 PM)

Roy Halladay is gonna be an interesting HOF case. I think the numbers warrant his entry, but he's gonna have the career in Canada problem. Doesn't help that he retired at a relatively young age. Although all he would have done is hurt his overall numbers if he kept pitching.




twinsfan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 1:03:28 PM)

All 4 top candidates got in.




Mr. Ed -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 1:03:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

All 4 top candidates got in.

Johnson, Martinez, Smoltz, Biggio elected to the #HOF. Four elected for first time in 60 yrs.




twinsfan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 1:05:49 PM)

Carlos Delgado only 3.8%. Bye bye.




djskillz -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 1:06:01 PM)

Ten deserving ones left off, but glad those 4 no-brainers made it at least. Really curious to see the voting on the rest.




twinsfan -> RE: MLB General Information PT 4 (1/6/2015 1:07:28 PM)

Piazza 70%

Bagwell 56%

Raines 55%

Everyone else under 40%

Raines with a nice 9% jump. But only 2 years left on the ballot because of the new rules. [:@] He's not gonna make it.




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