RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (Full Version)

All Forums >> [The Minnesota Vikings] >> General NFL Talk



Message


kgdabom -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/29/2015 12:56:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: JC2015

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Odle

I believe that Brady did it and I also believe it wasn't a big deal, either. The fact that this was even exaggerated into such a conspiracy is shameful. He broke the rules by having a football deflated. Give him a fine and move on; suspension if it happens again. Goodell seems to enjoy his role as judge, jury, and executioner. Just like Goodell would say that the Patriots are repeat offenders for rule violations, he is a repeat offender now at dispensing proper justice. First Peterson, now this. Then he wants to be the one that handles the appeal process, too? Come on. Where is the neutral arbitrator? Any appeals should be handles outside of the NFL office scope of authority.

Great post Dave!

If he admitted to it I could agree with Dave's assessment. However, since he destroyed evidence and continues to play the innocent victim to the nation I think the book should be thrown at him. Suspend him for the season unless he comes clean.


Funny stuff.

What's funny about Brady cheating and then continuing his attempt to play the innocent victim?


The gas chamber is not an option?

Not to me. However, I do think this is a great opportunity for the NFL to take a stand and say cheating and cover-ups will not be tolerated.




djskillz -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/29/2015 1:27:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Also spot-on. This should dispute any crazy cell phone "smoking gun" theories. The NFL is a joke:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/28/brady-offered-to-help-nfl-gather-missing-text-messages/


Exactly. In effect, Brady gave his consent to the NFL to investigate all of his text messages, but the NFL would be required to get the consent of the other parties to the texts, consent that Brady could NOT provide. And the NFL simply decided to not pursue that.


Yep.




djskillz -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/29/2015 1:29:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Guilt was never in question to me. I just never really cared that he did it. Clearly you wouldn't destroy the phone investigators were looking for - that was allowed to be prescreened to remove sensitive information - if you had nothing to hide.

Brady should have just taken his lumps. Like (most of) the public wouldn't forgive and forget. Now he's stuck in the ultimate liar's denial game. He'll continue to fight it. Which in the end is worse than the actual transgression.

Probably end up someday where it always ends up...with an admission of guilt. Then people will be like - way to cheat and lie ya big liar and cheater. Whereas this could have all blown over as a simple attempt to gain a competitive edge against overly strict rules on football regulations.


There is no way there is ever an admission of guilt on this, as there shouldn't be, because no guilt occurred.

To be absolutely certain Brady has no guilt is IMO to be absolutely oblivious to the evidence.


What evidence? That's the whole thing; there's still not even evidence that the balls were underinflated in the first place. That's the whole point. And if they weren't (as science/math both tell us) then the ENTIRE thing is moot and no rules were broken, period. This whole thing is a sham driven by people that don't understand math and science (mainly Vincent and Wells).




djskillz -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/29/2015 1:44:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JC2015

I don't see slightly underinflating balls on the same level of horror that you do


Exactly. And even if they did it (I don't believe they did), EVERY team is doing something similar. Months-long process with a high speed buffer for Eli's balls, etc. Some QB's like them "overinflated" (Rodgers, etc.). It's all just personal preference for grip and aerodynamics. No different whether it's inflation, scuffing, buffing, etc. Either let the offense have complete control of their footballs and let them do just about anything the want with them, or given them zero control.




kgdabom -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/29/2015 2:43:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: JC2015

I don't see slightly underinflating balls on the same level of horror that you do


Exactly. And even if they did it (I don't believe they did), EVERY team is doing something similar. Months-long process with a high speed buffer for Eli's balls, etc. Some QB's like them "overinflated" (Rodgers, etc.). It's all just personal preference for grip and aerodynamics. No different whether it's inflation, scuffing, buffing, etc. Either let the offense have complete control of their footballs and let them do just about anything the want with them, or given them zero control.

I mostly agree with this. Let the teams inflate the balls to the level they prefer as long as they don't change the basic shape or alter anything about the manufacture. Less inflated balls for most are easier to handle and less likely to be fumbled. Roughed up or softened might allow better grip. I don't have problems with those ideas. I still have a problem with you being absolutely convinced that there was no wrong doing. I would disagree with you if you said you believed there was no wrong doing but I would understand you coming to that opinion. However, this absolute certainty despite various circumstantial evidence is beyond me.




djskillz -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/29/2015 3:53:36 PM)

Again, according to the official that measured the balls "best recollection" and according to basic science, the footballs were never underinflated to begin with. ie no violation even occurred.

Witch

Hunt




JC2015 -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/29/2015 6:00:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: JC2015

I don't see slightly underinflating balls on the same level of horror that you do


Exactly. And even if they did it (I don't believe they did), EVERY team is doing something similar. Months-long process with a high speed buffer for Eli's balls, etc. Some QB's like them "overinflated" (Rodgers, etc.). It's all just personal preference for grip and aerodynamics. No different whether it's inflation, scuffing, buffing, etc. Either let the offense have complete control of their footballs and let them do just about anything the want with them, or given them zero control.

I agree!




kgdabom -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/29/2015 6:09:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Again, according to the official that measured the balls "best recollection" and according to basic science, the footballs were never underinflated to begin with. ie no violation even occurred.

Witch

Hunt

Is it possible Dustin that you are putting total faith into a flawed concept? You act like the science in this scenario is beyond question. So who's responsibility is it to make sure the game day footballs are inflated to the appropriate PSI. I take it that the team is responsible. Then does an NFL official measure them before the game to make sure they are at this level. Then are they returned to equipment handlers? Just want to get this straight. Now if I understand this the ball will of it's own accord in reaction to atmospheric conditions lose some PSI during the game. So according to this science how much PSI will the ball lose during the game. Were the balls in possession of the equipment men ever out of sight in a situation where the equipment men could have taken some air out? When were the balls checked again for PSI level. Why were they checked again for PSI level? Were the PSI levels consistent with what science would expect the Levels to be if not acted upon by any other outside force except for Atmospheric conditions. Why would the NFL be on a witch hunt against one of their most marketable figures and most popular teams. Why would they subject themselves to the ridicule and scorn of fans like you? Educate me please.




JC2015 -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/29/2015 6:47:36 PM)

Here is why this whole thing is overblown

The Colts didn't score - not caused by deflated balls but by NE's defense

Then in the Super Bowl the Pats beat the defending champions with completely legal balls

Enough

They won it without cheating




Lynn G. -> RE: Around the NFL (News) (7/29/2015 10:03:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Again, according to the official that measured the balls "best recollection" and according to basic science, the footballs were never underinflated to begin with. ie no violation even occurred.

Witch

Hunt


Then why did the Patriots so quickly agree to the fine and loss of draft picks? It seems like they might have balked at any kind of punishment if they really did nothing wrong.

In other words, Robert Kraft disagrees with your assessment that they did nothing wrong and there was no violation.




djskillz -> RE: Around the NFL (News) (7/30/2015 9:41:07 AM)

Surely you are not serious, Lynn. Really? The same Robert Kraft that produced a lengthy response on the Patriots' website blasting the initial ruling and refuting every single point? The same Robert Kraft who came out forcefully yesterday saying if he had to take it back, he would have, and would fight it?

The fact that they accepted penalties does not mean he thinks they did wrong at all. It means that he's an owner in a multi-billion dollar industry who, for the good of the league, laid down rather than go through a protracted legal battle, and in the process, probably thought Brady would be exonerated as well.

NOTHING Kraft has done acknowledges that any violation occurred whatsoever.




JC2015 -> RE: Around the NFL (News) (7/30/2015 9:54:36 AM)

quote:

“But believing in the strength of the partnership, and the 32 teams, we have concentrated the power of adjudication of problems in the office of the commissioner. Although I might disagree with what is decided, I do have respect for the commissioner and believe that he’s doing what he perceives to be in the best interest of the full 32. So in that spirit, I don’t want to continue the rhetoric that’s gone on for the last four months. I’m going to accept, reluctantly, what he has given to us and not continue this dialogue and rhetoric. And we won’t appeal.


http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/169179/robert-krafts-complete-statement-on-accepting-nfls-penalties




djskillz -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/30/2015 10:02:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Again, according to the official that measured the balls "best recollection" and according to basic science, the footballs were never underinflated to begin with. ie no violation even occurred.

Witch

Hunt

Is it possible Dustin that you are putting total faith into a flawed concept? You act like the science in this scenario is beyond question. So who's responsibility is it to make sure the game day footballs are inflated to the appropriate PSI. I take it that the team is responsible. Then does an NFL official measure them before the game to make sure they are at this level. Then are they returned to equipment handlers? Just want to get this straight. Now if I understand this the ball will of it's own accord in reaction to atmospheric conditions lose some PSI during the game. So according to this science how much PSI will the ball lose during the game. Were the balls in possession of the equipment men ever out of sight in a situation where the equipment men could have taken some air out? When were the balls checked again for PSI level. Why were they checked again for PSI level? Were the PSI levels consistent with what science would expect the Levels to be if not acted upon by any other outside force except for Atmospheric conditions. Why would the NFL be on a witch hunt against one of their most marketable figures and most popular teams. Why would they subject themselves to the ridicule and scorn of fans like you? Educate me please.


Pretty simple. I'll lay out the basics.

1) The NFL was informed by someone that they thought footballs were underinflated before the Colts/Patriots game. This sort of thing happens all the time where complaints are made from team to team before games according to most. Obviously they didn't take this too seriously to start because there was no extra precautions/mentions to the officials for the game, etc.
2) Basic measurements were taken of the footballs' PSI levels, as is standard practice. Though the needles used, according to the Wells report even, have vastly different readings. All footballs were in compliance with the 12.5 minimum range, according to the information we have, though again, we don't know the accuracy of the needles (measuring devices) used.
3) One of the equipment managers of the Patriots took the footballs to the field pregame. On the way, he stopped in the restroom for approximately 90 seconds. That 90 seconds is the ONLY time in entire timeline the footballs are out of plain sight or not in the view of cameras. According to some, that's proof that they cheated and he could easily deflate 12 footballs in 90 seconds to the proper specifications they want. According to others, there's no way he could, and he simply was taking a piss.
4) In-game, a football is complained about by one of the Colts' players on an interception for being "underinflated". They take all of the footballs in at halftime (Colts and Patriots), measure them, and re-inflate them to the proper level, taking readings.
5) Almost all Patriots' footballs, as well as several Colts' footballs, measure under the 12.5 PSI "minimum".
6) The league somehow determines, without any knowledge of science, that the Patriots must have cheated and tampered with the footballs. In doing so, there comes a leak from the NFL that 11 of the 12 Patriots footballs were "significantly" underinflated, some by "as much as 2 PSI". This was a completely erroneous leak that has swayed public sentiment for 7 months now. No balls were "significantly" under the 12.5 PSI minimum.
7) The NFL leads an "investigation" and in doing so, it's clear that both Wells and Troy Vincent do not understand science. In fact they dismiss the science by the vast majority of those that have studied it that all footballs naturally lose about 1 PSI based on the weather change from the room to outside temperature/pressure at the temperature it was in-game.
8) Again, the needles used to measure are in question. The head official claims in the report that he believes he used Needle A. Needle A would point almost conclusively, by science, that the Patriots' footballs were all at the proper range when the initial ratings were taken, and would have lost about the amount of pressure they lost based on the game conditions. However, the NFL presses that official (who is an NFL employee) and asks him "is it possible" that he used Needle B? He says, yes, it's possible, but his recollection is that he used Needle A. The Wells report somehow concludes that they believe he used Needle B. No mention is made of the Colts' "underinflated" footballs, because their pressure was underinflated on some, but still a little more than the Patriots'.
9) The investigation continues with testimony, text message readings, etc. All they are able to string together from hundreds of hours of testimony and thousands of text messages is that some equipment managers with the Patriots know that Brady likes "deflated" footballs. We have no idea what range that "deflation" is at. Whether it's 11 PSI, 12.5 PSI, or 13.5 PSI. None. No proof. No mentions. Nothing.
10) The NFL suspends Brady for 4 games. On appeal, they suspend him again.
11) The NFL leaks/states that Brady "destroyed" his personal cell phone, again biasing public opinion.
12) More news comes out that the NFL has been given ALL Patriot employee cell phones throughout the investigation. And a full list of every number that Brady has had contact with via text or phone over the period in question. Brady has also provided 10,000+ text messages but would not provide his private, personal phone to the investigation, as is his right.

Again, the most likely explanation has always been:
The Patriots' like to have their footballs for Brady at about the minimum of 12.5 PSI
The Colts' like to have their footballs for Luck set at a little bit higher PSI, maybe around 13-13.25 PSI
ALL footballs underwent the PSI change due to the change in conditions, consistent with science.
The NFL, mainly Wells and Vincent, did not understand this (maybe still don't) and hence thought they had "caught" Brady in some act. They use little snippets of information like "deflation" in texts (without any context for how much, etc.) to further their witch hunt.
Knowing that the whole thing is ridiculous, but not wanting to admit their incompetence, they've tried to shift blame as much as possible through erroneous leaks ("detroyed" cell phone, 11 of 12 balls as much as 2 PSI under limit, etc.) onto an organization and player that they know many fans hate anyway.
Not to mention that no advantage has been shown in any way. And the Patriots beat the Colts by far more in the 2nd half than the first.
The whole this is a ridiculous sham.

Listen, I know people hate the Patriots/Brady. I know there was "spygate" before. But look at the FACTS in this case. Just use math/science. There is not even evidence that the footballs were ever underinflated in the first place. Again, everything else is moot if that's the case.




Trekgeekscott -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/30/2015 11:29:09 AM)

Clearly Dustin you are passionate about clearing Brady and the Patriots.

I get your case.

I am not going to argue it. I personally believe every team doctors balls, just like you believe everyone in Major League baseball is on Roids.

Your passion though seems to appear as biased in favor of Brady and the Patriots as others are against it. I think this whole deal is much ado about nothing to be honest. I have maintained throughout that the gorilla in the room is that the NFL doesn't manage it's own game balls. If you give teams that much control over game used equipment, they will "modify" it to suit their needs. Hell the Vikings were warned not to warm the balls during a fall game last year.

To say no modification was done is disingenuous.
to say that Brady destroying his phone is not suspicious is disingenuous.
To say the equipment manager, who calls himself "the deflator" disappearing WITH THE FOOTBALLS right before the game for long enough to deflate them is not suspicious is disingenuous. The NFL does not need to provide reasonable doubt. They can rule based on circumstance. And that is what they have here. A LOT OF CIRCUMSTANCE.

I get your science argument.
But this is not a witch hunt. The Patriots are not hated like you think they are. But they are a team that has cheated before. So the NFL is coming down hard on them. Should they have? I don't think so. Brady shouldn't have been suspended imho. The team shouldn't have been hammered like it was other that being a repeat "offender".

Tom Brady is not hated, he is one of the more marketable stars of the NFL. For the NFL to willy nilly suspend him is no small deal. This is the Superbowl winning QB. For him not to play in the NFL season opener for any reason other than retirement is a big deal.

I am sure we don't have all the information that the NFL has. We don't have all the communications between the league and Brady/Patriots regarding this matter to see how he was responding the requests they made. We don't have all the info.

I don't trust Goodell and I still think that he shouldn't be the arbiter for appeals.

If the NFL was truly concerned about balls being doctored, they should take complete control of all game balls and every QB can suck it if they don't like how the ball feels.




Dave Odle -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/30/2015 11:46:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

Clearly Dustin you are passionate about clearing Brady and the Patriots.

I get your case.

I am not going to argue it. I personally believe every team doctors balls, just like you believe everyone in Major League baseball is on Roids.

Your passion though seems to appear as biased in favor of Brady and the Patriots as others are against it. I think this whole deal is much ado about nothing to be honest. I have maintained throughout that the gorilla in the room is that the NFL doesn't manage it's own game balls. If you give teams that much control over game used equipment, they will "modify" it to suit their needs. Hell the Vikings were warned not to warm the balls during a fall game last year.

To say no modification was done is disingenuous.
to say that Brady destroying his phone is not suspicious is disingenuous.
To say the equipment manager, who calls himself "the deflator" disappearing WITH THE FOOTBALLS right before the game for long enough to deflate them is not suspicious is disingenuous. The NFL does not need to provide reasonable doubt. They can rule based on circumstance. And that is what they have here. A LOT OF CIRCUMSTANCE.

I get your science argument.
But this is not a witch hunt. The Patriots are not hated like you think they are. But they are a team that has cheated before. So the NFL is coming down hard on them. Should they have? I don't think so. Brady shouldn't have been suspended imho. The team shouldn't have been hammered like it was other that being a repeat "offender".

Tom Brady is not hated, he is one of the more marketable stars of the NFL. For the NFL to willy nilly suspend him is no small deal. This is the Superbowl winning QB. For him not to play in the NFL season opener for any reason other than retirement is a big deal.

I am sure we don't have all the information that the NFL has. We don't have all the communications between the league and Brady/Patriots regarding this matter to see how he was responding the requests they made. We don't have all the info.

I don't trust Goodell and I still think that he shouldn't be the arbiter for appeals.

If the NFL was truly concerned about balls being doctored, they should take complete control of all game balls and every QB can suck it if they don't like how the ball feels.



[sm=yeahthat.gif]


I couldn't have said it better.




Lynn G. -> RE: Around the NFL (News) (7/30/2015 11:47:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Surely you are not serious, Lynn. Really? The same Robert Kraft that produced a lengthy response on the Patriots' website blasting the initial ruling and refuting every single point? The same Robert Kraft who came out forcefully yesterday saying if he had to take it back, he would have, and would fight it?

The fact that they accepted penalties does not mean he thinks they did wrong at all. It means that he's an owner in a multi-billion dollar industry who, for the good of the league, laid down rather than go through a protracted legal battle, and in the process, probably thought Brady would be exonerated as well.

NOTHING Kraft has done acknowledges that any violation occurred whatsoever.


Yes, accepting the penalties in the first place absolutely acknowledges that violations occurred.

He figured as a big shot, deep pocket owner, he was going to accept the minimum deal for their transgressions and then hope his buddy the commissioner would just make the rest of it go away.

Now that his buddy didn't sit up and bark at his command he's coming out and denying the whole thing.

Baloney. It couldn't be more obvious that he just assumed he'd get some kind of NFL equivalent of copping to a lesser plea under the table.




JC2015 -> RE: Around the NFL (News) (7/30/2015 12:03:58 PM)

Yes, trekkie nailed it




kgdabom -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/30/2015 6:01:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

Clearly Dustin you are passionate about clearing Brady and the Patriots.

I get your case.

I am not going to argue it. I personally believe every team doctors balls, just like you believe everyone in Major League baseball is on Roids.

Your passion though seems to appear as biased in favor of Brady and the Patriots as others are against it. I think this whole deal is much ado about nothing to be honest. I have maintained throughout that the gorilla in the room is that the NFL doesn't manage it's own game balls. If you give teams that much control over game used equipment, they will "modify" it to suit their needs. Hell the Vikings were warned not to warm the balls during a fall game last year.

To say no modification was done is disingenuous.
to say that Brady destroying his phone is not suspicious is disingenuous.
To say the equipment manager, who calls himself "the deflator" disappearing WITH THE FOOTBALLS right before the game for long enough to deflate them is not suspicious is disingenuous. The NFL does not need to provide reasonable doubt. They can rule based on circumstance. And that is what they have here. A LOT OF CIRCUMSTANCE.

I get your science argument.
But this is not a witch hunt. The Patriots are not hated like you think they are. But they are a team that has cheated before. So the NFL is coming down hard on them. Should they have? I don't think so. Brady shouldn't have been suspended imho. The team shouldn't have been hammered like it was other that being a repeat "offender".

Tom Brady is not hated, he is one of the more marketable stars of the NFL. For the NFL to willy nilly suspend him is no small deal. This is the Superbowl winning QB. For him not to play in the NFL season opener for any reason other than retirement is a big deal.

I am sure we don't have all the information that the NFL has. We don't have all the communications between the league and Brady/Patriots regarding this matter to see how he was responding the requests they made. We don't have all the info.

I don't trust Goodell and I still think that he shouldn't be the arbiter for appeals.

If the NFL was truly concerned about balls being doctored, they should take complete control of all game balls and every QB can suck it if they don't like how the ball feels.

Superb Post.




kgdabom -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/30/2015 6:04:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Again, according to the official that measured the balls "best recollection" and according to basic science, the footballs were never underinflated to begin with. ie no violation even occurred.

Witch

Hunt

Is it possible Dustin that you are putting total faith into a flawed concept? You act like the science in this scenario is beyond question. So who's responsibility is it to make sure the game day footballs are inflated to the appropriate PSI. I take it that the team is responsible. Then does an NFL official measure them before the game to make sure they are at this level. Then are they returned to equipment handlers? Just want to get this straight. Now if I understand this the ball will of it's own accord in reaction to atmospheric conditions lose some PSI during the game. So according to this science how much PSI will the ball lose during the game. Were the balls in possession of the equipment men ever out of sight in a situation where the equipment men could have taken some air out? When were the balls checked again for PSI level. Why were they checked again for PSI level? Were the PSI levels consistent with what science would expect the Levels to be if not acted upon by any other outside force except for Atmospheric conditions. Why would the NFL be on a witch hunt against one of their most marketable figures and most popular teams. Why would they subject themselves to the ridicule and scorn of fans like you? Educate me please.


Pretty simple. I'll lay out the basics.

1) The NFL was informed by someone that they thought footballs were underinflated before the Colts/Patriots game. This sort of thing happens all the time where complaints are made from team to team before games according to most. Obviously they didn't take this too seriously to start because there was no extra precautions/mentions to the officials for the game, etc.
2) Basic measurements were taken of the footballs' PSI levels, as is standard practice. Though the needles used, according to the Wells report even, have vastly different readings. All footballs were in compliance with the 12.5 minimum range, according to the information we have, though again, we don't know the accuracy of the needles (measuring devices) used.
3) One of the equipment managers of the Patriots took the footballs to the field pregame. On the way, he stopped in the restroom for approximately 90 seconds. That 90 seconds is the ONLY time in entire timeline the footballs are out of plain sight or not in the view of cameras. According to some, that's proof that they cheated and he could easily deflate 12 footballs in 90 seconds to the proper specifications they want. According to others, there's no way he could, and he simply was taking a piss.
4) In-game, a football is complained about by one of the Colts' players on an interception for being "underinflated". They take all of the footballs in at halftime (Colts and Patriots), measure them, and re-inflate them to the proper level, taking readings.
5) Almost all Patriots' footballs, as well as several Colts' footballs, measure under the 12.5 PSI "minimum".
6) The league somehow determines, without any knowledge of science, that the Patriots must have cheated and tampered with the footballs. In doing so, there comes a leak from the NFL that 11 of the 12 Patriots footballs were "significantly" underinflated, some by "as much as 2 PSI". This was a completely erroneous leak that has swayed public sentiment for 7 months now. No balls were "significantly" under the 12.5 PSI minimum.
7) The NFL leads an "investigation" and in doing so, it's clear that both Wells and Troy Vincent do not understand science. In fact they dismiss the science by the vast majority of those that have studied it that all footballs naturally lose about 1 PSI based on the weather change from the room to outside temperature/pressure at the temperature it was in-game.
8) Again, the needles used to measure are in question. The head official claims in the report that he believes he used Needle A. Needle A would point almost conclusively, by science, that the Patriots' footballs were all at the proper range when the initial ratings were taken, and would have lost about the amount of pressure they lost based on the game conditions. However, the NFL presses that official (who is an NFL employee) and asks him "is it possible" that he used Needle B? He says, yes, it's possible, but his recollection is that he used Needle A. The Wells report somehow concludes that they believe he used Needle B. No mention is made of the Colts' "underinflated" footballs, because their pressure was underinflated on some, but still a little more than the Patriots'.
9) The investigation continues with testimony, text message readings, etc. All they are able to string together from hundreds of hours of testimony and thousands of text messages is that some equipment managers with the Patriots know that Brady likes "deflated" footballs. We have no idea what range that "deflation" is at. Whether it's 11 PSI, 12.5 PSI, or 13.5 PSI. None. No proof. No mentions. Nothing.
10) The NFL suspends Brady for 4 games. On appeal, they suspend him again.
11) The NFL leaks/states that Brady "destroyed" his personal cell phone, again biasing public opinion.
12) More news comes out that the NFL has been given ALL Patriot employee cell phones throughout the investigation. And a full list of every number that Brady has had contact with via text or phone over the period in question. Brady has also provided 10,000+ text messages but would not provide his private, personal phone to the investigation, as is his right.

Again, the most likely explanation has always been:
The Patriots' like to have their footballs for Brady at about the minimum of 12.5 PSI
The Colts' like to have their footballs for Luck set at a little bit higher PSI, maybe around 13-13.25 PSI
ALL footballs underwent the PSI change due to the change in conditions, consistent with science.
The NFL, mainly Wells and Vincent, did not understand this (maybe still don't) and hence thought they had "caught" Brady in some act. They use little snippets of information like "deflation" in texts (without any context for how much, etc.) to further their witch hunt.
Knowing that the whole thing is ridiculous, but not wanting to admit their incompetence, they've tried to shift blame as much as possible through erroneous leaks ("detroyed" cell phone, 11 of 12 balls as much as 2 PSI under limit, etc.) onto an organization and player that they know many fans hate anyway.
Not to mention that no advantage has been shown in any way. And the Patriots beat the Colts by far more in the 2nd half than the first.
The whole this is a ridiculous sham.

Listen, I know people hate the Patriots/Brady. I know there was "spygate" before. But look at the FACTS in this case. Just use math/science. There is not even evidence that the footballs were ever underinflated in the first place. Again, everything else is moot if that's the case.
Thanks very much for the more or less concise breakdown. I acknowledge that the Patriots despite many that love them are among the more hated teams in the league. Maybe only second to the Cowboys who are also the most loved team. However, that is among fans. Maybe the league hates them because of the prior cheating.
I definitely question the science here that says a game ball will lose a whole pound PSI from a little before game time to half time. That seems far too much, but that is just me guessing. Will the ball continue losing PSI from half time to the end of the game? When do they go flat? Why does the equipment man in question call himself the Deflator?




djskillz -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/30/2015 6:12:09 PM)

It's basic science. It has nothing to do with the play, etc. Within seconds (or at least minutes) that the balls change from the indoor environment where they are tested to the outside, colder temperatures that they played at that day they'd lose that much. You can question it, but that's science. As scientific as gravity. Talk to any scientist you know and they'll tell you the same. Has nothing to do with how the balls are handled during the game or effects there. Basic air pressure. Heck, you can do this at home yourself. Heck, think of your tires on your car. When it's cold out, the tires often read a low pressure until they warm up. Same thing here.

As to the equipment manager and the random "deflator" text, again, that's with zero context. We have no idea if that means he deflates them to 13 PSI (pre-inspection) or 12.5, or anything else. Nowhere in any text or statement or testimony is there any evidence that the footballs are ever actually under 12.5 PSI at the time of inspection, or effected in any way after the inspection by any hand but nature.

And Trekkie, I hear ya, but again, the SCIENCE invalidates everything else. It really does. Science points to the balls being properly inflated in all likelihood. We have no good evidence to the contrary based on the Ideal Gas Law. So you can't just throw that out. Because NOTHING ELSE MATTERS if the balls were initially at or above 12.5 PSI. That's my whole point. You can't make that a minute part of the argument. If the science is wrong THEN THERE WAS NO VIOLATION in the first place. And nothing else matters. I'm sorry, but I can't take serious any counter point to this until someone gives any rationale to dismiss the science. Because it means someone 1) hasn't read the report, and 2) isn't actually looking at it in an objective way. This hasn't been reported in a widespread way in journalism because it's "boring" and again, it's a reflection on our stupid, reality TV-laden culture right now.

Lynn, your post makes no sense. Sorry. Again, he's part of a much greater force (the multi-billion dollar league) than to worry about a protracted legal battle over a draft pick and a "small" fine for him to pay. At no point has he admitted/acknowledged anything in violation; on the contrary he has made his views known on the ridiculousness of the whole charade the entire time. And just came out forcefully saying he regrets his choice to back down. Let me ask you this; is everyone that accepts a plea bargain actually guilty? Of course not. You can't honestly believe that. Also, a 1st rd pick and a fine is not a "minimum" fee. Even if violations actually occurred (they didn't) the CBA calls for a $25K fine. So no matter what the punishment is insane.




kgdabom -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/30/2015 6:51:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

It's basic science. It has nothing to do with the play, etc. Within seconds (or at least minutes) that the balls change from the indoor environment where they are tested to the outside, colder temperatures that they played at that day they'd lose that much. You can question it, but that's science. As scientific as gravity. Talk to any scientist you know and they'll tell you the same. Has nothing to do with how the balls are handled during the game or effects there. Basic air pressure. Heck, you can do this at home yourself. Heck, think of your tires on your car. When it's cold out, the tires often read a low pressure until they warm up. Same thing here.

As to the equipment manager and the random "deflator" text, again, that's with zero context. We have no idea if that means he deflates them to 13 PSI (pre-inspection) or 12.5, or anything else. Nowhere in any text or statement or testimony is there any evidence that the footballs are ever actually under 12.5 PSI at the time of inspection, or effected in any way after the inspection by any hand but nature.

And Trekkie, I hear ya, but again, the SCIENCE invalidates everything else. It really does. Science points to the balls being properly inflated in all likelihood. We have no good evidence to the contrary based on the Ideal Gas Law. So you can't just throw that out. Because NOTHING ELSE MATTERS if the balls were initially at or above 12.5 PSI. That's my whole point. You can't make that a minute part of the argument. If the science is wrong THEN THERE WAS NO VIOLATION in the first place. And nothing else matters. I'm sorry, but I can't take serious any counter point to this until someone gives any rationale to dismiss the science. Because it means someone 1) hasn't read the report, and 2) isn't actually looking at it in an objective way. This hasn't been reported in a widespread way in journalism because it's "boring" and again, it's a reflection on our stupid, reality TV-laden culture right now.

Lynn, your post makes no sense. Sorry. Again, he's part of a much greater force (the multi-billion dollar league) than to worry about a protracted legal battle over a draft pick and a "small" fine for him to pay. At no point has he admitted/acknowledged anything in violation; on the contrary he has made his views known on the ridiculousness of the whole charade the entire time. And just came out forcefully saying he regrets his choice to back down. Let me ask you this; is everyone that accepts a plea bargain actually guilty? Of course not. You can't honestly believe that. Also, a 1st rd pick and a fine is not a "minimum" fee. Even if violations actually occurred (they didn't) the CBA calls for a $25K fine. So no matter what the punishment is insane.

Yes I know cold conditions will have an effect. So will altitude. I live in Flagstaff AZ elevation 7,000 feet and potato chip bags get so inflated they almost burst. Also coming from Minnesota I know if you leave a football or basketball outside long enough in the winter they will go flat. So the balls are measured at indoor temp and then brought outdoors? What was the temperature difference from indoors to outdoors? When the PSI was measured again was it done outdoors or were they taken indoors and given a chance to warm up first? A pound is a lot. If it was super cold outside though I could see it. Do you have a chart that was researched under laboratory conditions that demonstrates how much PSI the balls should have lost? Do you trust the chart was it made by unbiased researchers? The Colts balls when retested were at a higher PSI than the Patriots. Why would that be? Why would the Colts overinflate the balls. Does Luck want to be handicapped by having harder stiffer balls (yes I actually typed that).




thebigo -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/30/2015 10:06:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

It's basic science. It has nothing to do with the play, etc. Within seconds (or at least minutes) that the balls change from the indoor environment where they are tested to the outside, colder temperatures that they played at that day they'd lose that much. You can question it, but that's science. As scientific as gravity. Talk to any scientist you know and they'll tell you the same. Has nothing to do with how the balls are handled during the game or effects there. Basic air pressure. Heck, you can do this at home yourself. Heck, think of your tires on your car. When it's cold out, the tires often read a low pressure until they warm up. Same thing here.

As to the equipment manager and the random "deflator" text, again, that's with zero context. We have no idea if that means he deflates them to 13 PSI (pre-inspection) or 12.5, or anything else. Nowhere in any text or statement or testimony is there any evidence that the footballs are ever actually under 12.5 PSI at the time of inspection, or effected in any way after the inspection by any hand but nature.

And Trekkie, I hear ya, but again, the SCIENCE invalidates everything else. It really does. Science points to the balls being properly inflated in all likelihood. We have no good evidence to the contrary based on the Ideal Gas Law. So you can't just throw that out. Because NOTHING ELSE MATTERS if the balls were initially at or above 12.5 PSI. That's my whole point. You can't make that a minute part of the argument. If the science is wrong THEN THERE WAS NO VIOLATION in the first place. And nothing else matters. I'm sorry, but I can't take serious any counter point to this until someone gives any rationale to dismiss the science. Because it means someone 1) hasn't read the report, and 2) isn't actually looking at it in an objective way. This hasn't been reported in a widespread way in journalism because it's "boring" and again, it's a reflection on our stupid, reality TV-laden culture right now.

Lynn, your post makes no sense. Sorry. Again, he's part of a much greater force (the multi-billion dollar league) than to worry about a protracted legal battle over a draft pick and a "small" fine for him to pay. At no point has he admitted/acknowledged anything in violation; on the contrary he has made his views known on the ridiculousness of the whole charade the entire time. And just came out forcefully saying he regrets his choice to back down. Let me ask you this; is everyone that accepts a plea bargain actually guilty? Of course not. You can't honestly believe that. Also, a 1st rd pick and a fine is not a "minimum" fee. Even if violations actually occurred (they didn't) the CBA calls for a $25K fine. So no matter what the punishment is insane.

Yes I know cold conditions will have an effect. So will altitude. I live in Flagstaff AZ elevation 7,000 feet and potato chip bags get so inflated they almost burst. Also coming from Minnesota I know if you leave a football or basketball outside long enough in the winter they will go flat. So the balls are measured at indoor temp and then brought outdoors? What was the temperature difference from indoors to outdoors? When the PSI was measured again was it done outdoors or were they taken indoors and given a chance to warm up first? A pound is a lot. If it was super cold outside though I could see it. Do you have a chart that was researched under laboratory conditions that demonstrates how much PSI the balls should have lost? Do you trust the chart was it made by unbiased researchers? The Colts balls when retested were at a higher PSI than the Patriots. Why would that be? Why would the Colts overinflate the balls. Does Luck want to be handicapped by having harder stiffer balls (yes I actually typed that).


Take an empty plastic bottle (empty of fluid that is to say, full of air at room temperature) ensure that the plastic bottle is capped/airtight, then place the plastic bottle in the refrigerator. This will actually approximate the difference in air temperature the deflategate balls experienced. Observe bottle after 2 hours.

Hell you could probably do the same thing with a football




Trekgeekscott -> RE: NFL is going to reject Tom Brady’s appeal (7/31/2015 7:45:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz


And Trekkie, I hear ya, but again, the SCIENCE invalidates everything else. It really does. Science points to the balls being properly inflated in all likelihood. We have no good evidence to the contrary based on the Ideal Gas Law. So you can't just throw that out. Because NOTHING ELSE MATTERS if the balls were initially at or above 12.5 PSI. That's my whole point. You can't make that a minute part of the argument. If the science is wrong THEN THERE WAS NO VIOLATION in the first place. And nothing else matters. I'm sorry, but I can't take serious any counter point to this until someone gives any rationale to dismiss the science. Because it means someone 1) hasn't read the report, and 2) isn't actually looking at it in an objective way. This hasn't been reported in a widespread way in journalism because it's "boring" and again, it's a reflection on our stupid, reality TV-laden culture right now.




No the SCIENCE doesn't invalidate everything else. This is not a court of law. They have a guy that calls himself the deflator disappearing with the game balls right before the game.
They have a suspicion that something is amiss. They have a suspicion that someone delated balls and circumstances that not only indicate it could have happened but also that a player was involved in directing the deflation.
They have a player destroying his phone at a suspicious point of the investigation. A player that likely has had the balls deflated a bit before each game for more than a decade because every team doctors balls and everyone gets away with it.
This is a case of a player that probably doesn't think he's really done anything really wrong but since his ass in a fire, he's covering his butt.

You are right, he doesn't HAVE to turn over his cell phone info...but his refusal to do so points a guilty finger right in Brady's face.

People have been convicted of murder with less evidence. SCIENCE is not the end all be all here. There is a lot of circumstance, not just a little. And Science can not dismiss all of that. I am as supportive of science as anyone. Defend scientist versus religious zealots etc. frequently. Just because science says the deflation COULD be explained one way doesn't mean that science says it COULDN'T be explained another way.


I honestly think Brady is being suspended no so much because of suspected ball doctoring, but more because he wasn't cooperative with the investigation.

This is not a court of law and innocence does not have to be assumed. This is the court of the NFL. With Roger "captain inconsistent" Goodell as the judge, jury and executioner.

Again. I don't think Brady should be suspended. I do think there should be some punishment though.
Brady hasn't been the most cooperative person in this investigation.
And the NFL is coming down hard on the Patriots because they've been caught cheating before.




JC2015 -> This should make Ciara happy (7/31/2015 10:59:04 AM)

Quarterback Russell Wilson and the Seattle Seahawks have agreed to a four-year contract extension worth $87.6 million, sources confirmed to ESPN on Friday.

The terms were first reported by Sports Illustrated. The deal includes $60 million guaranteed.

The deal puts Wilson on par with Green Bay Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers, who is the NFL's highest-paid player with a deal worth an average of $22 million annually.

Wilson, 26, was scheduled to make $1.54 million this season, the fourth and final year of his rookie contract. If he had not agreed to the new contract, Wilson faced being tagged as the franchise player next February.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13352599/quarterback-russell-wilson-close-agreement-seahawks




Lynn G. -> RE: Around the NFL (News) (7/31/2015 11:27:40 AM)

And in other nonsense, Mike and Mike this morning were talking about a Massachusetts couple that just got married three months ago and have agreed that they are going to postpone their honeymoon until Tom Brady is allowed to play football again (regular season, preseason not included). So they're putting off their honeymoon in a show of support for Tom Brady.

I hate to be the one to break it to this lovely couple, but there is no way in hell he'd do the same thing for you. No way would Tom Brady make any kind of show of support or take a stance, setting something in his personal life aside, to back up something going on in this couple's life. And they shouldn't do it for him, in my opinion.

The story gets even better, though. Not only does the guy in the couple have the Patriots logo tattooed across his chest, he has tattooes of both Brady and Belichek's faces on his thigh! Oh my gosh. That is taking fandom to a really creepy level.




Page: <<   < prev  36 37 [38] 39 40   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5.5 Unicode