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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens)

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/29/2013 10:42:33 PM   
TJSweens


Posts: 45028
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline 		Go back and reread and I posted a hell of a lot more than that multiple times. The fact that continue to omit it in the discussion really conveys a lack of objectivity on your part.

At least I have been objective enough to say that the job is probably not as good as I think it is, but it is probably better than you think it is. Your stance is the only to be truly objective is to agree with you.

BTW, the fact that Pete agrees with you does not make your position any more objective. Dave agrees with me. That doesn't make my point any more objective either.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/29/2013 10:46:39 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		Sweens, what other fact other than "they're in the Big10" did you bring? Relationships of the AD's with coaches? The job itself still matters.

MN as a place of good recruits? Hardly a fact.

What else am I missing?

The MN job has almost no great history.
It has terrible facilities.
It has no great recent history.
They don't have a major warchest for money. ie it's not like they can pay significantly more than even major quality mid-majors.
It's not a prime destination for recruits.

As to Pete, I was saying my Duke fandom has no bearing on my objectivity of the MN job, just like his doesn't.

I'm not saying "I'm right". I'm asking for factual counters to MN as a fairly mediocre job landing spot right now for top coaches or up and coming coaches. I want them to succeed and get a great coach. I just don't see it. Flip's not a bad option IMO.

< Message edited by djskillz -- 3/29/2013 10:48:50 PM >

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/29/2013 10:55:19 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		To put it another way, Sweens: I liken the MN basketball job to the Vandy football job. Very good conference in its sport, but not much history, or recent history of success for the individual program. Vandy took a chance and it's worked out to some extent (respectability) with Franklin so far. But he was a complete unknown. Sometimes those work out, but a lot of times they don't.

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"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/29/2013 11:27:09 PM   
TJSweens


Posts: 45028
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline 		Fact: Minnesota is producing more D1 prospects than ever before. Fact: Every coach of every royalty school is recruiting here right now. Fact: There are Minnesota kids are now in the NBA with Wolters likely joining them next year. Fact: no other state boasts a top 3 for 2014 like Minnesota. There is also the fact that there is no in state competition for these recruits. The problem is in closing the boarders a bit. It's almost impossible to keep the Jones' from going to a royal program, but you should be able to keep the Leurs from going to Wisconsin.

Will we produce a Tyus Jones every year? Highly doubtful. But the state is producing enough talent to help build a successful program. Just ask Bo Ryan.

Next there is the fact that the Big Ten jobs that are better than Minnesota are taken and aren't going to open up any time soon.

Next there is the fact that a program the size of the Gophers is going to be a huge raise to a lot of up and coming coaches. Smart passed on contracts worth about twice what VCU raised him up to, but he is clearly waiting for a shot at a "royal program" and isn't going to risk a rebuilding effort at Minnesota or UCLA. Teague supposedly has a huge list of up and comers, which could contain the next Shaka Smart.

Now add to the mix that Teague is supposed to be a highly respected AD among basketball coaches; not my opinion, the opinion of a lot of coaches who were interviewed by the media when Teague was hired and when Tubby was fired.

Now let's be clear. The facilities suck and desperately need to be addressed. Dakich said that as well. In fact he went on at length about how inadequate they are and how much it hurts recruiting. He said Minnesota will not move to the next level without fixing this problem. In fact he said that he thinks Maturi sold Tubby a bill of goods about new facilities to get him to come here.

As to Flip, the most compelling argument is to make the boosters happy so they donate money for new facilities. I believe they will get them anyway. And as I have gone into in detail, Flip is just not that good of a coach. He is old (3 years younger than Tubby and 3 years older than Tubby was when he took the job). He has no recruiting network. He hasn't recruited in 30 years. His presumed top assistants have no recruiting experience. I ust find him incredibly lacking.

This job is not attractive enough to get Smart, Hoiburg or Stevens, but as Ed said, they can do better than Flip.

< Message edited by TJSweens -- 3/29/2013 11:31:58 PM >

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/29/2013 11:30:15 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		Thanks Tim. I'm still not swayed, but that's all I was asking for. And I certainly wasn't trying to be a dick or anything. We just obviously disagree on it as an attractive destination. Regardless, I hope they get a great hire whoever it is.

And I think UCLA is a royalty program really with their history. UCLA is a whole different animal than MN. Market/facilities/boosters/location/recruiting ground/history of success. The "it" programs in college basketball to me longterm are NC, Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, and Indiana in some order.

I HATE UCLA, but there's no reason they shouldn't consistently be a top 5 program in the country. Same as I feel about USC in football.

< Message edited by djskillz -- 3/29/2013 11:34:18 PM >

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"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/29/2013 11:35:35 PM   
TJSweens


Posts: 45028
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline 		No problem. I didn't think you were being a dick at all.

I would put UCLA more in the WAS a royalty program category. I just don't see them with Duke or Kentucky any time soon. The PAC 10 is just not a highly regarded conference right now. That could change, but it will be hard to return to top 5 status until that changes. In any event Smart loves the Richmond area is waiting for one of the elite programs closer to home to open up.

< Message edited by TJSweens -- 3/29/2013 11:36:35 PM >

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/29/2013 11:39:33 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

No problem. I didn't think you were being a dick at all.

I would put UCLA more in the WAS a royalty program category. I just don't see them with Duke or Kentucky any time soon. The PAC 10 is just not a highly regarded conference right now. That could change, but it will be hard to return to top 5 status until that changes. In any event Smart loves the Richmond area is waiting for one of the elite programs closer to home to open up.


The conference hurts, but I think the right coach puts them right back in the mix. Just like USC football did after a lull. They have ridiculous facilities now with the $2-300M they just dumped in, it's the 2nd largest market in the country for marketing, most historically successful program in bball, great location for recruits, and the best high school talent in the country in the area. With no "real" competition for recruits. Bball guys go to UCLA, football go to USC, that's not changing anytime soon. Those are a LOT of pluses.

Again, I hate them, but I'd still put them in that group. Indiana was crap not long ago, and all it took was Crean to get them back to where they belong for the sport.

_____________________________

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/29/2013 11:40:54 PM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline 		Damn, was hoping the FGCSU story would continue.
Damn fun while it lasted.
i guess now we find out soon .... if their boy is our boy.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/29/2013 11:42:42 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		BTW, Kentucky will be back to a lull as soon as Calipari gets caught again. Which he will.

Will say this though; they have the most loyal fans in sports IMO. Much as I dislike them, UK fans are insane. Anytime any game is remotely close for them, an entire city turns blue. Really, an NBA team could be easily supported in a place like Louisville or Cincy (close enough) IMO.

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"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/29/2013 11:43:23 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Damn, was hoping the FGCSU story would continue.
Damn fun while it lasted.
i guess now we find out soon .... if their boy is our boy.


i don't even care about the boy. i care about the girl.



_____________________________

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/29/2013 11:48:19 PM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Damn, was hoping the FGCSU story would continue.
Damn fun while it lasted.
i guess now we find out soon .... if their boy is our boy.


i don't even care about the boy. i care about the girl.




Fundraising ...... check

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Play like a Pirate.
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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/29/2013 11:49:17 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		That's actually our name for umm, assets, in the office: fundraisers.

As in: "she's got a nice set of fundraisers there."

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"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/29/2013 11:56:36 PM   
TJSweens


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Joined: 7/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

BTW, Kentucky will be back to a lull as soon as Calipari gets caught again. Which he will.


The problem is he never really gets caught. He skips town just before all hell breaks loose. He always seems to avoid getting nailed. Someone else always seems to go under the bus and save him. The guy really should have been banned a long time ago.

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"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/29/2013 11:58:39 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

BTW, Kentucky will be back to a lull as soon as Calipari gets caught again. Which he will.


The problem is he never really gets caught. He skips town just before all hell breaks loose. He always seems to avoid getting nailed. Someone else always seems to go under the bus and save him. The guy really should have been banned a long time ago.


Yep. The effect on Kentucky will be the same though. That national championship? Never happened.

They need a lot stricter rules on coaches and bans on them personally. Kids/others always seem to take the brunt of the hit.

_____________________________

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/30/2013 12:43:26 AM   
Pete M.


Posts: 11006
Joined: 7/31/2007
From: Mahtomedi, MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Fact: Minnesota is producing more D1 prospects than ever before. Fact: Every coach of every royalty school is recruiting here right now. Fact: There are Minnesota kids are now in the NBA with Wolters likely joining them next year. Fact: no other state boasts a top 3 for 2014 like Minnesota. There is also the fact that there is no in state competition for these recruits. The problem is in closing the boarders a bit. It's almost impossible to keep the Jones' from going to a royal program, but you should be able to keep the Leurs from going to Wisconsin.

Will we produce a Tyus Jones every year? Highly doubtful. But the state is producing enough talent to help build a successful program. Just ask Bo Ryan.

Next there is the fact that the Big Ten jobs that are better than Minnesota are taken and aren't going to open up any time soon.

Next there is the fact that a program the size of the Gophers is going to be a huge raise to a lot of up and coming coaches. Smart passed on contracts worth about twice what VCU raised him up to, but he is clearly waiting for a shot at a "royal program" and isn't going to risk a rebuilding effort at Minnesota or UCLA. Teague supposedly has a huge list of up and comers, which could contain the next Shaka Smart.

Now add to the mix that Teague is supposed to be a highly respected AD among basketball coaches; not my opinion, the opinion of a lot of coaches who were interviewed by the media when Teague was hired and when Tubby was fired.

Now let's be clear. The facilities suck and desperately need to be addressed. Dakich said that as well. In fact he went on at length about how inadequate they are and how much it hurts recruiting. He said Minnesota will not move to the next level without fixing this problem. In fact he said that he thinks Maturi sold Tubby a bill of goods about new facilities to get him to come here.

As to Flip, the most compelling argument is to make the boosters happy so they donate money for new facilities. I believe they will get them anyway. And as I have gone into in detail, Flip is just not that good of a coach. He is old (3 years younger than Tubby and 3 years older than Tubby was when he took the job). He has no recruiting network. He hasn't recruited in 30 years. His presumed top assistants have no recruiting experience. I ust find him incredibly lacking.

This job is not attractive enough to get Smart, Hoiburg or Stevens, but as Ed said, they can do better than Flip.


This is about as good a case as one can make against Flip, Sweens. I tip my hat to you. In the end, we just have differing views on his basketball acumen. If Woody hires Flip, I sure hope I'm right.
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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/30/2013 8:36:24 AM   
TJSweens


Posts: 45028
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline 		If Flip's the choice, I hope I wind up eating crow until I poop black feathers.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/30/2013 8:48:54 AM   
Dave E


Posts: 25479
Joined: 8/1/2007
From: Minneapolis
Status: offline 		I'm still with Tim.
Post #: 3267
RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/30/2013 10:14:18 AM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

I'm still with Tim.


not possible

or did you mean in pooping?

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/30/2013 10:49:34 AM   
Steve Lentz


Posts: 36199
Joined: 7/19/2007
From: Omaha
Status: offline 		Alford to UCLA.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/30/2013 10:56:53 AM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		Great hire IMO.

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"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/30/2013 11:50:28 AM   
Dave E


Posts: 25479
Joined: 8/1/2007
From: Minneapolis
Status: offline 		More Flip rumors. Ugh. Well, I said I'd trust Teague...but man. Better have a cheap buyout.
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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/30/2013 1:49:41 PM   
Jim Frenette


Posts: 15995
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From: Dundas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Great hire IMO.


Why, he just lost to Harvard in 1st rd as a high seed?

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/30/2013 1:51:14 PM   
Jim Frenette


Posts: 15995
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Dundas
Status: offline 		According to Doogie, Gophers reached out to Andy Enfield. Just at phone call stage though

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/30/2013 1:57:33 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Frenette

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Great hire IMO.


Why, he just lost to Harvard in 1st rd as a high seed?


1. Harvard's a good team and Amaker's one hell of a coach.
2. WAYYYY too much stock is placed on 1-2 tournament games. Anything can happen.

Alford's got a very good history of winning, especially for the program's he's coached.

_____________________________

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 3/30/2013 2:00:05 PM   
Jim Frenette


Posts: 15995
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Dundas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Frenette

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Great hire IMO.


Why, he just lost to Harvard in 1st rd as a high seed?


1. Harvard's a good team and Amaker's one hell of a coach.
2. WAYYYY too much stock is placed on 1-2 tournament games. Anything can happen.

Alford's got a very good history of winning, especially for the program's he's coached.


1 win in tournament I believe. He failed at Iowa in Big 10. New Mexico in weak conference

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