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RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 1:18:09 AM

Todd M

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The panelists stare dumbly at one another, then one of them says "Well, it is hard to ignore those things...." The others nod and harrumph, and then they go right back to ignoring it. Total time spent thinking about the subject was maybe 10 seconds. Sad. That is sad. It is however an example of why people get so outraged when something involves animals. People are messed up and the media gets it wrong an awful lot. Following this case has been an eye opener for me. I have seen and read the most ignorant things from people throughout this whole thing. It's one thing to be ignorant WRT to facts and figures, general books smarts if you will, it's another to be ignorant to what would be fruitful thoughts/actions and words to benefit society. Your post E is case in point. I can't believe they let that go so easy. Vick apologists would like to use something like that to distance what Vick did and I hate that. But no way can there be acceptance of such skirting of major issues. ESPN is a joke. There terrible reporting has been on display since the beginning of this case.

Post #: 351

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 1:26:20 AM

El Duderino

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[quote="Todd Mallett"]Your post E is case in point. I can't believe they let that go so easy.[/quote] Letting it go conveniently allows them to avoid the discussion of the privilege that goes along with fame and wealth, something they benefit from themselves. Not to be overly cynical or anything. I don't begrudge anyone their paycheck, but I do have a problem with the two-track legal system we have.

Post #: 352

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 2:29:26 AM

Chris Olson

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I am guessing everyone has pretty much said their piece on this... I just had a couple thoughts... I began feeling like I wanted Vick to fry over this...it is dispicable and reprehensible... However, I can't help but feel like this whole situtation is so far beyond making "a mistake"...this was an ingrained way of beieving what is acceptable... how far back does it go? childhood? college? when was he first introduced into dogfighting cirlces, etc...? Atlanta Sportswriter Terrence Moore said how he is going to need to "cry on Oprah's couch" and get blasted by callers on Larry King, etc...I think outing this mentality of dogfighting as a lifestyle will be important to his showing true contrition... everyone talks about contrition, but how is that measured? he apparently grew up in with a mentality that allowed him to be open to dogfighting as even a possibility...that is interesting to me, because most of us could never imagine getting involved in something like that, but wherever he was coming from mentally, culturally, it allowed him to make these choices...I think there is opportunity for him to show contrition in his revealing this mindset, these people that feel it is no big deal to fights dogs and then kill the loser as a deserved fate...how similar is this to bullfighting as a culturally OK thing to participate in? Or further, how about gladiator battles to the death...killing and whipping of slaves, etc...? How many cultures have allowed such atrocities? It probably never crossed his mind that it was really "wrong"...maybe thousands of people out there really feel this same way..."come on, it is just dogs..." Right not like it was blacks or Jews, right? But people, decent people, commit these atrocities...and it never occurs to them that it was wrong...not purposely evil, but ignorant and thoughtless? Patrick Henry of "Give me liberty or give me death" fame, owned over 65 slaves (or so I had read somewhere)...and he probably beat them like everyone else...maybe that is speculation, but it isn't a big jump...how about all Hitler's SS killing and beating ans starving Jews, like they were no more human than a piece of furniture...I am not saying they should not have figured it out, or that they didn't initially sense something wrong about racism, or rather simple acts of violence against another living thing...but socailly, culturally they were conditioned enough to just do it, until it became easy... I just hope that these kinds of things about the kind of people that do these acts can come to light...and that may help in people understanding this and maybe even help to eradicate the "sport"...ugh, it is painful to call it that...there is nothing that can bring back the dogs, nothing that can help those issues...and of course there are all the gambling issues and organized crime type things that I am not addressing, but MV is already paying, will pay tons more, but I wonder what will constitute true contrition from him...many will never buy anything he has to say, and maybe they shouldn't, but I think this situation can be a positive in helping us all to wake up from our conditioning...and question why we are doing what we do...just gong with the flow? or can we make thoughtful choices? I don't mean to be on the old :soapbox: but that is just something that came up today...

Post #: 353

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 3:01:50 AM

John Childress

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Great post Chris about how morals in society are relative "Atlanta Sportswriter Terrence Moore said how he is going to need to "cry on Oprah's couch" and get blasted by callers on Larry King, etc." This whole mea cupla tour really burns me. The people (like the guy from Seinfeld, or Imus, or Vick, or whoever) did the crime and they are NOT sorry. The first thing we saw from them is their true nature. Everything is BS PR spin. They need T-shirts stating "I am a <insert the adjective idiot, racist, masochist> and I am proud of it!"

Post #: 354

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 4:14:06 AM

Chris Olson

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MV did seem sorry to me, but was it for getting caught or for what his life has been these past years...of course everyone says that, but it is probably some of both...but you are so right, JC, about the mea culpa tour...it is so easy to take advantage of the "second chance" society...but what will really show/prove contrition? I don't know...did Leonard Little and Ray Lewis have to show this contrition?

Post #: 355

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 4:25:21 AM

Lynn G.

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I just cringed when he said something like "dogfighting is wrong." It just sounded so fake that something he's apparently been involved in and enjoying for, what? 20 years? he's now saying is wrong. I just don't believe he believes his own words.

Post #: 356

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 4:56:13 AM

Guest

[quote="John Childress"]Great post Chris about how morals in society are relative "Atlanta Sportswriter Terrence Moore said how he is going to need to "cry on Oprah's couch" and get blasted by callers on Larry King, etc." This whole mea cupla tour really burns me. The people (like the guy from Seinfeld, or Imus, or Vick, or whoever) did the crime and they are NOT sorry. The first thing we saw from them is their true nature. Everything is BS PR spin. They need T-shirts stating "I am a <insert the adjective idiot, racist, masochist> and I am proud of it!"[/quote] **************************************************************** Not speaking specifically to the Vick situation, but sometimes a person makes a mistake, realizes it, apologizes, learns a lesson and then becomes a better person. Richards, Imus and Vick all deserve some form of punishment, but IMO, they also deserve a chance to redeem themselves.

Post #: 357

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 6:35:07 AM

John Childress

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[quote="Pete C"][quote="John Childress"]Great post Chris about how morals in society are relative "Atlanta Sportswriter Terrence Moore said how he is going to need to "cry on Oprah's couch" and get blasted by callers on Larry King, etc." This whole mea cupla tour really burns me. The people (like the guy from Seinfeld, or Imus, or Vick, or whoever) did the crime and they are NOT sorry. The first thing we saw from them is their true nature. Everything is BS PR spin. They need T-shirts stating "I am a <insert the adjective idiot, racist, masochist> and I am proud of it!"[/quote] **************************************************************** Not speaking specifically to the Vick situation, but sometimes a person makes a mistake, realizes it, apologizes, learns a lesson and then becomes a better person. Richards, Imus and Vick all deserve some form of punishment, but IMO, they also deserve a chance to redeem themselves.[/quote] You redeem yourself through your actions over time - not on the Oprah couch. Heaven knows I have screwed up as much as anyone (nothing illegal though). I paid the price and tried not to do it again. I am just not buying most of these confessions. Vick just said he was going to clear his name. That was the chance for him to be honest and earn a little respect. Imus has been making racist remarks for years. Richards was so hateful in his speech that there is no way a couple of weeks talking with civil rights people changes decades of hate ingrained in him.

Post #: 358

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 10:31:44 AM

Guest

[quote="John Childress"][quote="Pete C"][quote="John Childress"]Great post Chris about how morals in society are relative "Atlanta Sportswriter Terrence Moore said how he is going to need to "cry on Oprah's couch" and get blasted by callers on Larry King, etc." This whole mea cupla tour really burns me. The people (like the guy from Seinfeld, or Imus, or Vick, or whoever) did the crime and they are NOT sorry. The first thing we saw from them is their true nature. Everything is BS PR spin. They need T-shirts stating "I am a <insert the adjective idiot, racist, masochist> and I am proud of it!"[/quote] **************************************************************** Not speaking specifically to the Vick situation, but sometimes a person makes a mistake, realizes it, apologizes, learns a lesson and then becomes a better person. Richards, Imus and Vick all deserve some form of punishment, but IMO, they also deserve a chance to redeem themselves.[/quote] You redeem yourself through your actions over time - not on the Oprah couch. Heaven knows I have screwed up as much as anyone (nothing illegal though). I paid the price and tried not to do it again. I am just not buying most of these confessions. Vick just said he was going to clear his name. That was the chance for him to be honest and earn a little respect. Imus has been making racist remarks for years. Richards was so hateful in his speech that there is no way a couple of weeks talking with civil rights people changes decades of hate ingrained in him.[/quote] *****************************************************8 I agree with what you say about redeeming yourself through actions over time, but many people aren't even willing to allow that to happen. People calling for a lifetime ban. That's absurd. I'm not saying Vick should be welcomed back with open arms, I'm just saying that the door shouldn't be slammed shut on him. Personally, I would have more respect for the league if they imposed a harsher penalty for spousal abuse. None of these wifebeaters are subjected to even a 4 game suspenison. O.J. said, and continues to say, that he is innocent, does that make him better than Vick - a man who first said he would clear his name then eventually plead guilty? Vick acknowledged his wrongdoing and I hope he becomes a better person for it. For OJ, their is no hope. Vick apolgized, and more than likely will serve time in Federal Prison. Hopefully his apology was sincere. And yes, time will tell if he has changed his ways. He deserves the chance to show us. Kill and torture dogs..... public outrage. Kill and torture hundreds of thousands of brown-skinned Middle Easterners..... oh well, that's the price of war. What Vick did was wrong, but excuse me if I'm more concerned about human suffering on a much grander scale.

Post #: 359

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 1:56:02 PM

Todd M

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Man that was a terrible post. Here's a clue: MICHEAL VICK KILLING DOGS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WAR, OR SPOUSAL ABUSE, OR CHILDREN SUFFERING, OR DRUNK DRIVERS. There's outrage in this case because what Vick did was outrageous. And I really don't think there's this huge chasm between what Vick did and some of the other things that it can be compared to. Once you get to a certain level of disgusting behavior, lines don't need to be drawn. If you think a life time ban is outrageous for what Vick did then I take it there's not much you wouldn't forgive. Good for you. IMO people don't really change. Unless they find Jesus. What a cop out. I'm so tired of people trying to downplay what Vick did based on other tragedies/atrocities in the world. And Vick get's almost 0 credit for pleading guilty. Facing over whelming evidence and the reality of racketeering charges right around the corner is the only thing that changed from "This is going to be a hard-fought trial," said Martin, one of five lawyers retained by Vick. "We are conducting our own investigation. We will look into these allegations and we look forward to the opportunity to being able to walk inside this courtroom saying to the world that Michael Vick is innocent." Without this investigation Vick would have continued doing what he's been doing for a long time. Killing and promoting killing.

Post #: 360

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 2:17:50 PM

Duane Sampson

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I heard Vick on the radio this morning. He's found Jesus.... all better now. :roll:

Post #: 361

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 2:42:41 PM

Duane Sampson

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Vikings' Leber: Vick situation 'is just sick' Last update: August 27, 2007 Ã¢â‚¬â€œ 9:00 PM Vikings veteran linebacker Ben Leber said the Michael Vick dogfighting case has been discussed among players, and the consensus was Vick's actions were indefensible. "The whole thing, honestly, is just sick." Leber said. "Guys talk about it in the locker room. "Pretty much everybody I've talked to think it's kind of a gross act and can't believe that it's one of our own that's actually involved in something like this," Leber added. "I just hope that more guys don't come out and find out that other guys in the league are doing this. I think that's the biggest fear. I just hope it's an isolated incident and it will take care of itself." JUDD ZULGAD

Post #: 362

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 5:15:40 PM

Jim Frenette

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[quote="Duane Sampson"]I heard Vick on the radio this morning. He's found Jesus.... all better now. :roll:[/quote] Now if going to jail is what it takes to find Jesus, then the prison system must work. I think Dion Sanders got into his ear by telling him to say that so everyone forgives him.

Post #: 363

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 5:16:27 PM

Lynn G.

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It didn't work.

Post #: 364

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 6:07:33 PM

Jim Frenette

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[quote="Lynn Garthwaite"]It didn't work.[/quote] :)

Post #: 365

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 7:38:44 PM

John Childress

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[quote="Pete C"][quote="John Childress"][quote="Pete C"][quote="John Childress"]Great post Chris about how morals in society are relative "Atlanta Sportswriter Terrence Moore said how he is going to need to "cry on Oprah's couch" and get blasted by callers on Larry King, etc." This whole mea cupla tour really burns me. The people (like the guy from Seinfeld, or Imus, or Vick, or whoever) did the crime and they are NOT sorry. The first thing we saw from them is their true nature. Everything is BS PR spin. They need T-shirts stating "I am a <insert the adjective idiot, racist, masochist> and I am proud of it!"[/quote] **************************************************************** Not speaking specifically to the Vick situation, but sometimes a person makes a mistake, realizes it, apologizes, learns a lesson and then becomes a better person. Richards, Imus and Vick all deserve some form of punishment, but IMO, they also deserve a chance to redeem themselves.[/quote] You redeem yourself through your actions over time - not on the Oprah couch. Heaven knows I have screwed up as much as anyone (nothing illegal though). I paid the price and tried not to do it again. I am just not buying most of these confessions. Vick just said he was going to clear his name. That was the chance for him to be honest and earn a little respect. Imus has been making racist remarks for years. Richards was so hateful in his speech that there is no way a couple of weeks talking with civil rights people changes decades of hate ingrained in him.[/quote] *****************************************************8 I agree with what you say about redeeming yourself through actions over time, but many people aren't even willing to allow that to happen. People calling for a lifetime ban. That's absurd. I'm not saying Vick should be welcomed back with open arms, I'm just saying that the door shouldn't be slammed shut on him. Personally, I would have more respect for the league if they imposed a harsher penalty for spousal abuse. None of these wifebeaters are subjected to even a 4 game suspenison. O.J. said, and continues to say, that he is innocent, does that make him better than Vick - a man who first said he would clear his name then eventually plead guilty? Vick acknowledged his wrongdoing and I hope he becomes a better person for it. For OJ, their is no hope. Vick apolgized, and more than likely will serve time in Federal Prison. Hopefully his apology was sincere. And yes, time will tell if he has changed his ways. He deserves the chance to show us. Kill and torture dogs..... public outrage. Kill and torture hundreds of thousands of brown-skinned Middle Easterners..... oh well, that's the price of war. What Vick did was wrong, but excuse me if I'm more concerned about human suffering on a much grander scale.[/quote]Great post Here in Philly we have had about 275 murders so far this year and all but about 50 are unsolved! Where is the mass outcry for those victims like there is for some dogs. I hope Vick reforms and anyone who is not a child molester gets a 2nd chance in my book - after he has served his time. If they can let Leonard Little back in the NFL Vick can get another chance in 2-3 years.

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RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 7:41:50 PM

Jeff Jesser

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But wouldn't you guys rather see the league make a stance now and stick with it? I agree that Little shouldn't be in the league. Hell, he should be in society but we can't say "LL was let back in so we should let Vick back in". That's backwards thinking IMO. Just because the league screwed the pooch on one guy doesn't mean everyone gets a pass because of that.

Post #: 367

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 7:43:30 PM

Toby Stumbo

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I'm sure if those murders got NATIONAL news non-stop for 3 months there would be a HUGE outcry. Give up the "You guys think animals are more important than people" crap please. :roll:

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RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 7:45:59 PM

Toby Stumbo

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[quote="Jeff Jesser"]But wouldn't you guys rather see the league make a stance now and stick with it? I agree that Little shouldn't be in the league. Hell, he should be in society but we can't say "LL was let back in so we should let Vick back in". That's backwards thinking IMO. Just because the league screwed the pooch on one guy doesn't mean everyone gets a pass because of that.[/quote] Follow me to the bridge, we're jumping off!!! :whistling:

Post #: 369

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 7:59:01 PM

El Duderino

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[quote="Pete C"]What Vick did was wrong, but excuse me if I'm more concerned about human suffering on a much grander scale.[/quote] I understand where you are coming from, but I HATE this argument. Even though I know you aren't, it sounds like you are excusing what Vick did because it's not as bad as other things that have been done. However, it also sounds like you are condemning people for condemning Vick - and I am much less certain that this isn't your intent. The thing is, it's not an either/or. You can be completely disgusted with what Vick did AND still have concern for people, too. What Vick did doesn't have anything to do with what other sickos have done or will do. There should not be a cap on ones capacity for outrage. Should the NFL be harsher about spousal abuse? Damn straight! Should the NFL be harsher about DWI? You bet your knickers! Should the NFL throw the book at a convicted felon? Without hesitation! Should the league's past (erroneous) leniency preclude them from taking appropriate actions in the case before them now? No freaking way!

Post #: 370

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 7:59:55 PM

El Duderino

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RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 8:53:37 PM

Lynn G.

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[quote="El Duderino"] The thing is, it's not an either/or. You can be completely disgusted with what Vick did AND still have concern for people, too. What Vick did doesn't have anything to do with what other sickos have done or will do. There should not be a cap on ones capacity for outrage. [/quote] Perfectly said. I've tried to express the same thing myself. A few months ago there was a murder in uptown Minneapolis that made the front pages for weeks and was on the news every night. A tourist, leaving a restaurant with his mother, was gunned down after being asked for his wallet. It was outrageous, and got the appropriate amount of outrage from the public. I could list hundreds of murders nationwide over the last couple of years that have brought outrage. Some have brought people in front of the city council to demand better police protection, or better lighting, or tougher sentences... The changes in our legal system come about exactly because of those things - because people get angry when one of their own becomes a victim. The implication in many posts that murder doesn't get enough attention by the public is absurd. It's in the papers every day. It's on the news every night. Entire neighborhoods have rallied together to make their streets safer after a drive-by shooting. Bills have been introduced to protect people after, for example, a convicted sex offender strikes again. It goes on and on. As a society we have shown time and time again that we're appalled by the criminal element that shows a blatant disregard for life. To say that we're not angered enough at the loss of human life is just plain insulting and ignorant. Read the newspapers! And in the meantime, I reserve the right to be horrified by what Michael Vick has pleaded guilty to doing.

Post #: 372

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 9:15:58 PM

John Childress

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[quote="Toby Stumbo"]I'm sure if those murders got NATIONAL news non-stop for 3 months there would be a HUGE outcry. Give up the "You guys think animals are more important than people" crap please. :roll:[/quote] That is exactly what is happening. What Vick did was wrong and he deserves to go to prison but the constant stories about him and this huge outcry of "he is the worst human being" BS is the part to which many people object. Again, I didn't see the months of top story coverage for Rae Carruth - a football player far more despicable than Vick. The fact that the Vick case has gotten national news for 3 months shows what bad shape we are in as a people. There are countless more important things we should focus on.

Post #: 373

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 9:40:18 PM

John Childress

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http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20070828_ap_arrestcloudsidahosenatorsfuture.html

Post #: 374

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/28/2007 9:54:15 PM

El Duderino

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[quote="John Childress"]What Vick did was wrong and he deserves to go to prison but the constant stories about him and this huge outcry of "he is the worst human being" BS is the part to which many people object. I can't disagree with this.

quote:

Again, I didn't see the months of top story coverage for Rae Carruth - a football player far more despicable than Vick.

While Carruth is indeed more despicable than Vick, He also was never on the cover of Madden Football. You never saw MNF ads beseeching you to "Watch Rae Carruth and the Carolina Panthers!" Rae Carruth never had the top-selling jersey in the NFL. As I said, Carruth's actions were inexcusable, but I think the difference in coverage has a lot more to do with the players' respective stature than with their crimes.

quote:

The fact that the Vick case has gotten national news for 3 months shows what bad shape we are in as a people. There are countless more important things we should focus on.

I agree for the most part. It's not as bad as obsessing over who the father of Anna Nicole's baby was or whatever, but the obsession with celebrity is indeed a very sad commentary. On the other hand, while there definitely are more important things (war, freedom, economy, infrastructure, etc.), for me at least, talking about one doesn't preclude talking about the other.

Post #: 375