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RE: Players and prospects III - 8/5/2014 3:14:12 PM

Jim Frenette

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From: Dundas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

I still remember that Dustin and I had a Joe Mauer will/will not reach .880 OPS bet in 2008.

By the way, I think Dustin still owes me on that one.

I remember Dustin praise the Twins when they got Cassila from the Angels telling us how great he would be

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Fargo

Post #: 1101

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/5/2014 3:34:28 PM

djskillz

Posts: 56863
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From: Nashville, TN
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He always showed flashes. The talent was there. Just was never developed properly it seemed.

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Post #: 1102

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/5/2014 4:15:39 PM

SoMnFan

Posts: 94902
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

Brice Zimmerman @ZimMiracle
Byron Buxton not in tonight's lineup and just 4-for-23 (.174) in last six games; all Miracle losses.

BUST!

This Buston stuff may actually be coming true. You and Todd were right all along.

In all seriousness, this season has been a disaster for him. To spin it any other way is absurd. Will he drop out of MLB's Top 10 prospects by the beginning of next season? Probably not. But if he struggles again next season with injuries or just mediocre play, I'm officially off the bandwagon.

Umm, I think I have said all along that Buxton was over-rated.

Wow, everyone's pretty touchy. OK. Here's what I meant:

This Buston stuff may actually be coming true. You, Mark and Todd were right all along.

Matt, is "Buston" a joke term that you and Sweens are using? Pretty clever.

Is this your first day?

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Post #: 1103

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/5/2014 4:16:49 PM

CPAMAN

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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Hmm, forgot about you owing me, Mark. We'll settle that at some future game soon.

As for the stats, even though I expect them both to clear those it's tough for me to sign on to those because I just don't believe in HR/AVG/RBI as accurate measures of a player at all. We know that both are always going to be very, very good defensive OF'ers and baserunners. So factoring that in can we agree on at least 3 times having an OPS at the break of .780 between them? That would put them (either one that clears it) in the top 5 CF'ers in baseball as overall players. Or we could do that over a full season (probably more fair for both of us than All Star break).

Hmmm, the concept of even OPS is difficult for me. An OPS of .350 is generally pretty decent but certainly not great. A slugging % of .400 is fair but not even close to very good. So you want to use .780 OPS for only half of a season three times for each player, is this correct? Or do they have to do it in the same season three times? If that is the case, then I accept the adjusted terms.

OPS is OBP plus SLG, Mark. An OBP of .350 to .400 is very good and a SLG of .400 is also very good. For a benchmark, only 45 players in baseball currently have OBP's over .350. Only 86 have SLG over .400. And only 56 have OPS's of at least .780. Among ALL OF'ers, only 19 have an OBP above .350, 31 have SLG above .400, and 22 have an OPS above .780. Among CF'ers, there only 5, 5, and 7 that qualify in those. So I'd say I'm giving you a pretty damn good low bar here.

.780 OPS or more for 3 full seasons by Buxton/Hicks combined in their careers. So if Buxton has 3 or more, I win. If Hicks has 3 or more, I win. If they don't combine to have at least 3 of those seasons in their career, not only will I lose the bet, but I will likely stop being a Twins fan.

Well, it sounds reasonable except each has to attain those numbers at least twice in their career and I will say you win. So if things pan out in your favor, I could owe you $100 in wine and dine benefits by as early as October 1, 2016 or certainly by October 1, 2017. Agreed? The reason I changed it to both is that one player could totally suck and thus be a complete bust. In that event, our bet would be a wash and then I still owe you a couple of top quality beers at a local beer pub downtown Mpls or other appropriate venue.

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Post #: 1104

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/5/2014 4:17:48 PM

SoMnFan

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$50 covers wine and dine?
McDonalds?

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Post #: 1105

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/5/2014 4:37:25 PM

djskillz

Posts: 56863
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From: Nashville, TN
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All good Mark. And we should up it to $100 for sure as it's probably going to be 2-3 years before you end up paying me, Mark.

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"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."

Post #: 1106

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/5/2014 5:02:49 PM

McMurfy

Posts: 13792
Joined: 7/31/2007
From: Portland, Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Hmm, forgot about you owing me, Mark. We'll settle that at some future game soon.

As for the stats, even though I expect them both to clear those it's tough for me to sign on to those because I just don't believe in HR/AVG/RBI as accurate measures of a player at all. We know that both are always going to be very, very good defensive OF'ers and baserunners. So factoring that in can we agree on at least 3 times having an OPS at the break of .780 between them? That would put them (either one that clears it) in the top 5 CF'ers in baseball as overall players. Or we could do that over a full season (probably more fair for both of us than All Star break).

Don't believe in AVG, HR, or RbI as accurate measures of a player at all?
This drives me nuts.

You can't discount those completely no matter what statistical measure you use.

Miguel Cabrera wins the Triple Crown, you down play him as a hitter, but continually to praise Hicks and Span.

You've outsmarted yourself.

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Post #: 1107

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/5/2014 5:05:45 PM

djskillz

Posts: 56863
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From: Nashville, TN
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No I don't downplay him as a hitter, Murf. He's been the best offensive player in the sport for a number of years. But that is proven by better statistics than RBI/HR/AVG IMO.

He has not been, however, the best overall player in the sport. Because defense/position/baserunning matter too. That title goes to Mike Trout. Again, IMO.

It's not that RBI/AVG/HR aren't important. But there are stats that tell the story of an individual players' offensive contributions much more clearly IMO. RBI is a team dependent stat, as is runs. HR/AVG just don't tell you nearly the story that OBP and SLG do.

_____________________________

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."

Post #: 1108

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/5/2014 5:07:19 PM

McMurfy

Posts: 13792
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From: Portland, Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

No I don't downplay him as a hitter, Murf. He's been the best offensive player in the sport for a number of years. But that is proven by better statistics than RBI/HR/AVG IMO.

He has not been, however, the best overall player in the sport. Because defense/position/baserunning matter too. That title goes to Mike Trout. Again, IMO.

It's not that RBI/AVG/HR aren't important. But there are stats that tell the story of an individual players' offensive contributions much more clearly IMO. RBI is a team dependent stat, as is runs. HR/AVG just don't tell you nearly the story that OBP and SLG do.

I would take Trout over Cabrera, better player IMO.
Still think Cabrera deserved the MVP though.

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Post #: 1109

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/5/2014 5:09:51 PM

djskillz

Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

No I don't downplay him as a hitter, Murf. He's been the best offensive player in the sport for a number of years. But that is proven by better statistics than RBI/HR/AVG IMO.

He has not been, however, the best overall player in the sport. Because defense/position/baserunning matter too. That title goes to Mike Trout. Again, IMO.

It's not that RBI/AVG/HR aren't important. But there are stats that tell the story of an individual players' offensive contributions much more clearly IMO. RBI is a team dependent stat, as is runs. HR/AVG just don't tell you nearly the story that OBP and SLG do.

I would take Trout over Cabrera, better player IMO.
Still think Cabrera deserved the MVP though.

I don't. If the Angels were in the Central, his team has more wins than the Tigers. And Trout has a bigger overall effect on his teams' games because of those position/defense/baserunning factors than Miggy does. Also, Trout's teammates are worse than Miggy's by far to me.

Cabrera's a beast no doubt though. You know I respect your opinions man. We just disagree on player statistical measures.

< Message edited by djskillz -- 8/5/2014 5:14:40 PM >

_____________________________

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."

Post #: 1110

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/5/2014 5:38:11 PM

CPAMAN

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

$50 covers wine and dine?
McDonalds?

If Dustin can pound down about 40 burgers off the dollar menu plus a few fries and a shake, then more power to him.

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RE: Players and prospects III - 8/5/2014 6:28:35 PM

ewen21

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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

No I don't downplay him as a hitter, Murf. He's been the best offensive player in the sport for a number of years. But that is proven by better statistics than RBI/HR/AVG IMO.

He has not been, however, the best overall player in the sport. Because defense/position/baserunning matter too. That title goes to Mike Trout. Again, IMO.

It's not that RBI/AVG/HR aren't important. But there are stats that tell the story of an individual players' offensive contributions much more clearly IMO. RBI is a team dependent stat, as is runs. HR/AVG just don't tell you nearly the story that OBP and SLG do.

I would take Trout over Cabrera, better player IMO.
Still think Cabrera deserved the MVP though.

I don't. If the Angels were in the Central, his team has more wins than the Tigers. And Trout has a bigger overall effect on his teams' games because of those position/defense/baserunning factors than Miggy does. Also, Trout's teammates are worse than Miggy's by far to me.

Cabrera's a beast no doubt though. You know I respect your opinions man. We just disagree on player statistical measures.

The underlined is highly debatable subjective analysis. The fact's are Cabrera won the Triple Crown and got his team to the WS. That, IN MY OPINION, makes him the clear cut winner.

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Post #: 1112

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/5/2014 6:29:47 PM

ewen21

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

$50 covers wine and dine?
McDonalds?

If Dustin can pound down about 40 burgers off the dollar menu plus a few fries and a shake, then more power to him.

Is this bet to do with Buxotn and Sano making it or not making it??

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The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure"

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Post #: 1113

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/5/2014 6:55:34 PM

CPAMAN

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Joined: 3/17/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ewen21

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

$50 covers wine and dine?
McDonalds?

If Dustin can pound down about 40 burgers off the dollar menu plus a few fries and a shake, then more power to him.

Is this bet to do with Buxotn and Sano making it or not making it??

yup to Buxton, the other player is Hicks

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Lots of Christopher Columbus statues available on ebay.

Post #: 1114

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/5/2014 10:50:58 PM

djskillz

Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
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Talk of Buxton about to be moved up to NB in a few days. About damn time.

_____________________________

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."

Post #: 1115

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/5/2014 10:51:55 PM

SoMnFan

Posts: 94902
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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Talk of Buxton about to be moved up to NB in a few days. About damn time.

WHOA
Hold on there, campers!
have his testicles fully descended yet?
Lets not rush this thing ....

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Post #: 1116

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/6/2014 5:52:53 AM

Mr. Ed

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From: Minne-so-ta
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Tuesday

Roch 2-hit, 1-0 loss

Farris 1-3, Beresford 1-4/double(24), Hicks 0-2/BB

Milone 0-1 7IP 6H/R/2BB/3K
Thompson IP BB

NB Lost 3-2

Rodriguez 1-4/2R HR(15), Hanson 2-3/BB/R, Thomas 2-4/double/E(13)

Wheeler 2-4 6IP 7H/3R/2BB/4K
Salcedo 2IP H/2K

FTM Off

CRapids 9-0 win

Mauer 1-3/R, Haar 2-4/2R/RBI(60)/E(17), Christensen 1-5/2R HR(9)(60RBI), Vielma 2-5/2R/2RBI, Swim 2-4/R/RBI

Nolasco 3.2IP 2H/BB/2K
Eades 7-11 4.1Ip 2H/3BB/5K
Boyd IP H/BB

Eliz lost 3-2

Doe 2-4/double, Mautner 1-4/R/RBI

LeBlanc 3.1IP 5H/R
Steele 2.2IP 1-2IRS 2H/R/BB/4K/HR
Booser IP K
DRod 1-1 3IP 2H/R/BB/3K(first run allowed this year)

GCL Twins lost 2-1 twice

3 hits /4 errors in game 1

Minier 1-3/BB/Solo HR(5)

Theofanopoulos 3I 3H/R/2BB/K/HR
Tapia 2IP H/K
ZJones .2IP BB/K
Nordgren 2.1IP 0-1 IRS H/BB/2K
Zazueta 0-1 .2IP H/UER/K

Game 2, just 4 hits

Guzman 2-3/3SB(11), Montesino 1-2/R/SB(6)

Burris 0-2 3IP H/UER/2BB/2K
Silva 2I 2H/R/K
Tillery 2IP 2H

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RE: Players and prospects III - 8/6/2014 10:05:03 AM

Jim Frenette

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I haven't seen Gordon listed in about a week? Is he injured or just slumping?

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Fargo

Post #: 1118

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/6/2014 10:17:30 AM

TJSweens

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No, just another bust, like Buston.

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RE: Players and prospects III - 8/6/2014 11:28:50 AM

twinsfan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Frenette

I haven't seen Gordon listed in about a week? Is he injured or just slumping?

You mean Nick Gordone?

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Post #: 1120

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/6/2014 9:47:32 PM

djskillz

Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
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Buxton back tonight, but 0 for 5. His wrist must still be bugging him. And honestly, if it is, shut him down if need be. He's so uber-talented that if he's fully healthy he could even wow in spring and still be in the majors within a month or two (service time).

Michael and Harrison continue to hit. Good signs for the organization. Moved Rosario down in the NB lineup tonight; seemed to help. 2 for 4 with a double. Need to get him going again.

_____________________________

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."

Post #: 1121

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/6/2014 10:23:52 PM

CPAMAN

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Joined: 3/17/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Buxton back tonight, but 0 for 5. His wrist must still be bugging him. And honestly, if it is, shut him down if need be. He's so uber-talented that if he's fully healthy he could even wow in spring and still be in the majors within a month or two (service time).

Michael and Harrison continue to hit. Good signs for the organization. Moved Rosario down in the NB lineup tonight; seemed to help. 2 for 4 with a double. Need to get him going again.

Dustin, you are getting a little over-the-top with this Buston guy. Just like Mauer. Players who miss a lot of time don't just step back in and perform at a high level. It doesn't work that way.

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Post #: 1122

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/6/2014 10:28:16 PM

sixthwi

Posts: 18119
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From: Packerland
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Every team in the organization lost by a run today except Cedar Rapids, who lost 6-1, and the GCL Twins, who didn't play.

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RE: Players and prospects III - 8/6/2014 11:52:38 PM

SoMnFan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sixthwi

Every team in the organization lost by a run today except Cedar Rapids, who lost 6-1, and the GCL Twins, who didn't play.

owwwwwwch

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Post #: 1124

RE: Players and prospects III - 8/6/2014 11:53:44 PM

SoMnFan

Posts: 94902
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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Frenette

I haven't seen Gordon listed in about a week? Is he injured or just slumping?

You mean Nick Gordone?

Can't remember who coined that one again ... you, Sweens, or Tgray?