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Guest -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 9:51:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Barnwell's 2018 Lessons

No team is one player away

During their cap disaster era earlier this decade, the Saints seemed capable of convincing themselves that they were perennially one player or one fix away from winning the Super Bowl. On one hand, we've seen how good they can be with Drew Brees and a good defense over the past two seasons, but the reality was that they were always a few players away. After going 11-5 in 2013, they handed a huge contract to star Bills safety Jairus Byrd, even though the deal required an onerous structure to fit into an already tight cap. He was a disaster in New Orleans and is now out of football. The Saints didn't turn things around until they had a killer draft in 2017.

The Vikings had their killer drafts before making their big free-agent move, but it was fair to look at what they did in this offseason and view them as serious Super Bowl contenders. After making it to the NFC Championship Game and returning virtually everyone from a dominant defense, the Vikings raised their floor at quarterback by replacing Case Keenum with Kirk Cousins on a $28 million per year deal. I liked the move, and I wasn't the only one.

Sixteen games later, Vikings fans aren't as enthused. The goalposts have begun to move in the way they often do when teams aren't satisfied with their quarterback. After grumbling about Cousins' record in prime-time games, he seemed to satiate Vikings fans with a 342-yard, three-touchdown performance against the Packers in Week 12, but that wasn't enough.

The impotent offense led Mike Zimmer to fire offensive coordinator John DeFilippo in December, and while Cousins and replacement offensive coordinator Kevin Stefanski helped push the offense to 68 points over two subsequent games, Vikings fans always seemed one rough series or quarter away from booing the offense again. In a must-win game on Sunday against the Bears, Cousins and the offense gave those fans plenty of opportunities to holler. Minnesota went three-and-out on its first four drives, racked up just three first downs by halftime, and finished with just 10 points.

With two fully guaranteed years left to go on Cousins' deal, the Vikings are basically tied in with him with precious little wiggle room to make changes for the foreseeable future. (There will certainly be Vikings fans dreaming of a scenario in which they trade Cousins and use the freed-up cap space to re-sign Teddy Bridgewater, and while it's theoretically possible given that Cousins' money is tied into a base salary, he would need to give his written consent for any trade.) After thinking they were one player away from a Super Bowl run, the Vikings are realizing that it isn't quite that simple.

Lesson: Be realistic about which elements of your team's play are likely to recur. During the offseason, fans often get hopeful about their team by counting on everything that went right to stay great while expecting everything that went wrong to improve. Teams can be just as optimistic internally. The Vikings had an incredibly healthy defense with an unsustainably great third-down rate in 2017. Their offensive line stayed healthy, and it allowed Keenum to post what would have been an impressive season for Cousins. I can't fault Minnesota for going after Cousins, but the front office probably now wishes it had re-signed someone like Bridgewater or Keenum and used the money to supplement the offensive line.




I seriously do not remember anybody in here gushing about Cousins being the “Final piece to the puzzle.”

Quite frankly I was extremely uncomfortable when I heard it all the time on TV, and radio.

I recall many like myself thinking Cousins was an upgrade to Keenum, but certainly not a world beating/ elite QB.

The more removed I get from the season the more questions I raise as to why in the hell couldnt Spielman/Zimmer/George Paton/ any other Vikings personnel executives see what MOST of us in here and around the country plainly saw. Our OLine was below average, and then lost Joe Berger to retirement. Then lose Nick Easton to injury.

Spielman’s answer-
Sign freaking Tom Freaking Compton
Draft cb Mike Hughes ahead of numerous OLine prospects and a run on OLineman in the draft.
Draft Brian O’Neill (Who I think even they perceived a project)
Low grade trade for a Giants backup center (Jones) who came in and got pushed all over the place, and then benched.


I’d have to say the Vikes got lucky that O’Neill came in and played as well as he did or it could’ve even been WORSE..[:-]

Serious GM Malpractice on the OLine...

Cousins is probably just a slightly above average QB with better pass pro, certainly not someone you ride to victory...




McMurfy -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 9:52:04 AM)

Rick Spielman’s Draft Preview

1. DE
2. DT
3. S
4. OG
5. Trade Down
6. K
6. Trade Down
7. OT
7. WR
7. CB




Daniel Lee Young -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 9:54:26 AM)

Out of that entire article...

What stands out, and defines fans and management alike ... is the insane belief that things that were good will always stay good and that the “bad” will get better with some effort.....



We were conference champions..
We played a tougher schedule.
The teams we faced were, “no purple blinders”, better than we were in coaching and execution.
We lost Sporano, unexpectedly and a noob had to step in.
We lost Shurmer to NYG, and the effect was huge.
Defilipo was a horrible choice as replacement.
Griff had a mental breakdown... something I know something about, and it affected everyone including the rubes here.
Griff has been one of our BEST defensive players, but now many want to cut, trade, restructure or otherwise reduce or eliminate the “perceived distraction” that is Everson Griffen.

Over and over some have pointed out and argued that we need to fix the offensive line with players and coaching.
For years we have tried to argue this fundamental problem.
We get shouted down by the finger pointers who want to blame cousins, Zimmer, cook, Rudolph, name your flavor of the week scapegoat, kickers, receivers... ad nauseum.

To me the smart ones watch the line play and bitch about it..
The rest is just clueless noise.

If your QB is “leading the league “in pass attempts under pressure”, you have a problem on the line.
Duh

If you have white knuckles on third and less than a yard because you know in your heart that trying to throw for it is a better option than dominating the line of scrimmage, you have a problem on the offensive Line.
Duh.

Management needs to pull its head out and fix the offense by starting with the unit that sucks the most..

I doubt any of our OL players would be starters on any of the playoff teams.

End of rant.




Guest -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 9:55:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

Rick Spielman’s Draft Preview

1. DE
2. DT
3. S
4. OG
5. Trade Down
6. K
6. Trade Down
7. OT
7. WR
7. CB



Haha that gets my TV broken right after the 1st pick...




TJSweens -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 9:55:34 AM)

The New Horizons spacecraft is well past Pluto and has taken the first ever pictures of a Kuiper Belt object. It still has not found a worse pair of guards than Remmers and Compton.




Daniel Lee Young -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 9:57:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

Rick Spielman’s Draft Preview

1. DE
2. DT
3. S
4. OG
5. Trade Down
6. K
6. Trade Down
7. OT
7. WR
7. CB



You pulled this from where?

Because it looks a bit analy coated, as in out of your ass...
[&:]




McMurfy -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 9:58:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

Rick Spielman’s Draft Preview

1. DE
2. DT
3. S
4. OG
5. Trade Down
6. K
6. Trade Down
7. OT
7. WR
7. CB



You pulled this from where?

Because it looks a bit analy coated, as in out of your ass...
[&:]


But it isn’t far fetched though is it?




ronhextall -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 10:07:26 AM)

People get too caught up in QB salaries. If the QB is decent and his contract is up he is going to get huge money, that is just the way it is. The reason for that is drafting a QB is like playing Russian Roulette and most chambers have a bullet in them (the odds are not with you).

The stats I find interesting are:
1. Successful teams seem to have a good QB with a team friendly salary. Gives them room to add pieces.
2. Super Bowl winning teams to it early in a coach's tenure and not later.

#1 is mostly luck, not sure anybody is some great QB draft guru.
#2. message gets old or it is the wrong message. Give a coach 5 years and if you are not knocking on the door of a Super Bowl you don't extend and move on.

I find the draft boring and refuse to dig into all the stuff, all I know is OL better be chosen the first two rounds and a FA signing on the OL would also seem to be wise.

If Zimmer is defensive Jesus it would seem to me he should be able to do more with less if need be. Instead he seems to suck up all the resources and antagonizes the offense publicly. He reminds me of a more PC version of Buddy Ryan.




Daniel Lee Young -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 10:11:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

Rick Spielman’s Draft Preview

1. DE
2. DT
3. S
4. OG
5. Trade Down
6. K
6. Trade Down
7. OT
7. WR
7. CB



You pulled this from where?

Because it looks a bit analy coated, as in out of your ass...
[&:]


But it isn’t far fetched though is it?

I wold be leading the caravan to Mankato with the tar, feathers,and lite rail track...

[8|][X(]




CPAMAN -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 10:33:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

Out of that entire article...

What stands out, and defines fans and management alike ... is the insane belief that things that were good will always stay good and that the “bad” will get better with some effort.....



We were conference champions..
We played a tougher schedule.
The teams we faced were, “no purple blinders”, better than we were in coaching and execution.
We lost Sporano, unexpectedly and a noob had to step in.
We lost Shurmer to NYG, and the effect was huge.
Defilipo was a horrible choice as replacement.
Griff had a mental breakdown... something I know something about, and it affected everyone including the rubes here.
Griff has been one of our BEST defensive players, but now many want to cut, trade, restructure or otherwise reduce or eliminate the “perceived distraction” that is Everson Griffen.

Over and over some have pointed out and argued that we need to fix the offensive line with players and coaching.
For years we have tried to argue this fundamental problem.
We get shouted down by the finger pointers who want to blame cousins, Zimmer, cook, Rudolph, name your flavor of the week scapegoat, kickers, receivers... ad nauseum.

To me the smart ones watch the line play and bitch about it..
The rest is just clueless noise.

If your QB is “leading the league “in pass attempts under pressure”, you have a problem on the line.
Duh

If you have white knuckles on third and less than a yard because you know in your heart that trying to throw for it is a better option than dominating the line of scrimmage, you have a problem on the offensive Line.
Duh.

Management needs to pull its head out and fix the offense by starting with the unit that sucks the most..

I doubt any of our OL players would be starters on any of the playoff teams.

End of rant.


Good post.




Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 11:09:43 AM)

If Spielman and Zimmer are on 1 year contracts is it going to be tough to get someone other than Stepanski and/or Hue?




SoMnFan -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 11:30:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

If Spielman and Zimmer are on 1 year contracts is it going to be tough to get someone other than Stepanski and/or Hue?

Unless a promising up-and-comer wants to make a name for himself quickly, and then maybe advance within ....all the way to the top?
Lots of shiny toys here.




Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 12:07:25 PM)

The Vikings are still a talented team and so it should be a very attractive job. (offensive coordinator) I'm ok with Stepanski, though. I don't know anything about Hue Jackson. It's good that I'm not the one to decide.




Trekgeekscott -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 12:44:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

If Spielman and Zimmer are on 1 year contracts is it going to be tough to get someone other than Stepanski and/or Hue?

Unless a promising up-and-comer wants to make a name for himself quickly, and then maybe advance within ....all the way to the top?
Lots of shiny toys here.


The only flaw with that logic is if he comes here and does well enough to garner HC opportunities, The Vikings likely do very well and that gets Zimmer and Speilman extensions...




Trekgeekscott -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 12:57:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveR

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

To go from 13 wins, then add a franchise QB...then drop 5 wins from your total. There's absolutely nothing positive about that. This season was an abject failure.

Apparently, you are not a true fan if the season was not fulfilling for you.


Who said it was fullfilling? Last year was the bigger letdown for me since we were that much closer. I also don't tear my house down because one window leaks too. Nothing wrong with the foundation IMO.

You fix the problem that caused the leak and you prepare for the other leaks that you think that might come up next year.

The obvious leaks are the Oline, 3rd WR, and LB if they don't resign Barr. Tough calls are Rhodes/Waynes, Griffen, Richardson, and the TE position.


Mike Zimmer will have to lose a few bodies on defense in order to make the moves necessary to improve the most hapless O-line that any of us have ever witnessed.


Is it worth it/possible to get anything for Smith? I think he started to reach the stage of being-lauded-by-announcers-on-past-performance-and-is-not-that-amazing-anymore. It's purely my imagination that he doesn't like Zimmer anyway. When the camera was on Smith at times, he did not seem too into things.

Harrison Smith could be excellent trade bait.



He could be but he wont. Vikings and Zimmer will not part with him unless they get Khalil Mack type return and no one is offering that kind of package.




SoMnFan -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 1:48:51 PM)

Pardon me for not researching ... but did George Iloka disappear off the face of the earth?
We kept adding guys who no one's ever heard of all year.
Did he fall off the cliff so badly that he couldn't be counted on?
I honestly thought that was a shrewd acquisition at the time.




Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 2:23:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Pardon me for not researching ... but did George Iloka disappear off the face of the earth?
We kept adding guys who no one's ever heard of all year.
Did he fall off the cliff so badly that he couldn't be counted on?
I honestly thought that was a shrewd acquisition at the time.

I think many expected, or atleast I did, that Iloka was brought in to play/back-up Sendejo (at the least) ... given his veteran and Zimmer experience.

Seems like Harris and Kearse, being homegrown, got first shot off the bench and played well-enough to keep Iloka sitting.




Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 2:32:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Drafting a RB is totally independent from building an Oline....no matter what you want to pin on Cook. Quit the bs.


Nothing is independent. You only have so much "currency". Spending a high pick on a RB means one less swing at an O-Lineman.


Right. Don't get me wrong, I love Cook, I get as excited as anyone when he makes a big play. But this isn't about that. They also have Latavius. And he showed last year the offense can be successful without Cook. Drafting Cook was not a necessity.

Atta boy. Somebody who gets it.




Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 2:38:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Drafting a RB is totally independent from building an Oline....no matter what you want to pin on Cook. Quit the bs.


Nothing is independent. You only have so much "currency". Spending a high pick on a RB means one less swing at an O-Lineman.


Right. Don't get me wrong, I love Cook, I get as excited as anyone when he makes a big play. But this isn't about that. They also have Latavius. And he showed last year the offense can be successful without Cook. Drafting Cook was not a necessity.


Coulda, Woulda Shoulda.

What's past is past. Learn from it and move on. Now if we draft a RB high this year it will be stupid. Let's concentrate on the team's weaknesses. Most notably the Oline. I sit with great anticipation and trepidation for what RS will do to fix this problem.


But that's what I'm saying. The Oline was a known weakness when Cook was drafted. I doubt management's ability to learn from mistakes.

This has been my beef for a number of years.

Like many in here, I watch a ton of football. When watching a successful franchise, both on and off the field, they seem to have a plan. When I watch the Vikings it's like a rudderless ship. They seem have no identity, and are just throwing darts into the sky in hopes of hitting something. If you ask me, that's a top-down problem.




thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 2:52:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

Rick Spielman’s Draft Preview

1. DE
2. DT
3. S
4. OG
5. Trade Down
6. K
6. Trade Down
7. OT
7. WR
7. CB



You pulled this from where?

Because it looks a bit analy coated, as in out of your ass...
[&:]


But it isn’t far fetched though is it?

I wold be leading the caravan to Mankato with the tar, feathers,and lite rail track...

[8|][X(]


Hopefully you'd have enough gas left to get you up 169 N for about 70 miles, then east on 494 E for another 15...




marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 4:04:01 PM)

Would ANY of the playoff teams start Kirk over their QBs ?




marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 4:07:34 PM)

Complain about the OL all you want, the same people will still be complaining about the OL next offseason, and the following offseason.

Even if the OL got mediocre, good, or even great, people will blame any percieved weakness on the OL, when the problem is Kirk isn't clutch, and Zimmer is outcoached and his playoff teams, or near playoff teams show up flat and or soft.




Karl Juhnke -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 4:11:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Complain about the OL all you want, the same people will still be complaining about the OL next offseason, and the following offseason.

Even if the OL got mediocre, good, or even great, people will blame any percieved weakness on the OL, when the problem is Kirk isn't clutch, and Zimmer is outcoached and his playoff teams, or near playoff teams show up flat and or soft.


There are tangible numbers showing the the Vikings pass protection was at the bottom of the league. This isn't opinion. It's fact. I for one will quit complaining about it when those number no longer show us at the bottom of the league.




thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 4:17:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Complain about the OL all you want, the same people will still be complaining about the OL next offseason, and the following offseason.

Even if the OL got mediocre, good, or even great, people will blame any percieved weakness on the OL, when the problem is Kirk isn't clutch, and Zimmer is outcoached and his playoff teams, or near playoff teams show up flat and or soft.


Trying to get something to stick, Marty?




David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/3/2019 4:25:39 PM)

Alex Marvez@alexmarvez
Source tells me @Vikings are working to re-sign special teams coach Mike Priefer, whose contract is expiring. Team is exploring other options in case it doesn't happen.




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