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Ragnarök -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/14/2020 1:00:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lars

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lars

Bottom 20% would be an F.

"Average" is my opinion. My point is that they are not awful - IMHO - but have significant room for improvement.

There is no perfect unit or perfect team.


Right about 20% being an F. They are certainly better than that probably more like a C-


C- seems plenty reasonable to me.


they were pretty good on sacks allowed, and we were a top rushing team....so, it would seem that they should at least get a C-


I am not trying to defend the Oline, i think it was our weakest link, followed by the drop off in CB play


I suspect the 'improvement' was largely a scheme change. Now if we can add some talent to the scheme, we may be on too something

Elf was pretty bad most of the year, i dont think there is anything 'there'...obvious priority

Bradbury had a couple bright spots, but is very concerning, it will be a big set-back, if he cant improve markedly

Reiff was average (maybe slightly below), but is paid as a top 8, i think. He is more like 18ish, IMO. i could justify him as a player, but not at that price

Kline was a nice fine, not pro bowler, but a legit NFL player at the right price

Oneil is a stud, i dont know if he can play left tackle, but that guy is really good


What happened to the 350 bruiser guards and tackles that were coming out of college and still are on Division I rosters presently? It would seem that size DOES matter when it comes to O-lineman. Deliberately drafting under-sized players that hover around 300 lbs or less is just not big enough in today's game unless those players are immensely strong and powerful. From a strength perspective, I am not sure there is one Vikings O-lineman that is physically durable or above average. Get some beef on the O-line.


And its directly correlative to the outcome of the D line wearing down as well. If your offense can have SEVEN 3 and outs because the O line is getting manhandled then it puts huge onus on the defense and those big guys on D line are first to wear down when being put back on the field and asked to hold up after such shit show from the offense to not have some time of possesion and give the D a breather...

When the O line is average and run blocking well in scheme devised by Kubiak it opened up passing game to be implemented as seemed to be called by Stefanski. There was obviously a two headed monster scheming the offense and then a layer of game day Zimmerism on top of that. It didnt work when our O line was pushed around, we had differing views of adjustments and too many stiring the pot.

An additional stud on the O line would be huge, but as well a singulary vision in scheme and playcalling from OC would as well be key to get some cohesiveness in playcalling and execution of given schemes to give the O line confidence in their strengths.




David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/14/2020 1:17:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

What happened to the 350 bruiser guards and tackles that were coming out of college and still are on Division I rosters presently? It would seem that size DOES matter when it comes to O-lineman. Deliberately drafting under-sized players that hover around 300 lbs or less is just not big enough in today's game unless those players are immensely strong and powerful. From a strength perspective, I am not sure there is one Vikings O-lineman that is physically durable or above average. Get some beef on the O-line.


I don't think that's accurate at all. A quick look at top starting O-linemen tells a very different story:

49ers O-Line ranges from 290-320
Saints O-Line ranges from 304-317
Cowboys O-Line ranges from 298-320
Packers O-Line ranges from 311-314
Patriots have 1 guy at 335, everyone else is below 310
Ravens have 1 guy at 345, everyone else is below 318

Our line is on the light side, but other than the rookie (who admittedly needs to add strength, all our guys are within 5-8 pounds of average. We have a talent issue, not a size one.




TJSweens -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/14/2020 1:33:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

What happened to the 350 bruiser guards and tackles that were coming out of college and still are on Division I rosters presently? It would seem that size DOES matter when it comes to O-lineman. Deliberately drafting under-sized players that hover around 300 lbs or less is just not big enough in today's game unless those players are immensely strong and powerful. From a strength perspective, I am not sure there is one Vikings O-lineman that is physically durable or above average. Get some beef on the O-line.


I don't think that's accurate at all. A quick look at top starting O-linemen tells a very different story:

49ers O-Line ranges from 290-320
Saints O-Line ranges from 304-317
Cowboys O-Line ranges from 298-320
Packers O-Line ranges from 311-314
Patriots have 1 guy at 335, everyone else is below 310
Ravens have 1 guy at 345, everyone else is below 318

Our line is on the light side, but other than the rookie (who admittedly needs to add strength, all our guys are within 5-8 pounds of average. We have a talent issue, not a size one.

I think the more accurate statement would be that we have a strength issue on the line. Our rookie C and our LG got over powered far to often. Plus, regardless of size, today's guards are expected to be athletic enough to get into the second and third level of defenses. The old school, road grader isn't particularly effective that way,




thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/14/2020 2:10:33 PM)

"If your offense can have SEVEN 3 and outs because the O line is getting manhandled then it puts huge onus on the defense and those big guys on D line are first to wear down when being put back on the field and asked to hold up after such shit show from the offense to not have some time of possesion and give the D a breather..."

There is an easy solution to this, we saw it implemented Sunday night. Just have a defensive player fake an injury every play.




thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/14/2020 2:53:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

future......

I probably dont extend Cousins, Zim or Spielman at this time

i am OK with another year of this crew, but at some point we need more results than we currently have.


i am not saying Spielman is terrible, I am not saying Zim is terrible, I am not saying Cousins is terrible.

I think they are good, but as has been said many times, good is the enemy of great.



Does that mean that bad is the friend of great? Is bad the friend or the enemy of good? And how does the adage "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" apply here?




Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/14/2020 3:55:42 PM)

The Gophers didn't win a championship, but they had a nice Bowl victory and they exceeded expectations. The Vikings seem to disappoint every year. Funny how our 2nd round RT is much better than our first round center. We haven't hit many homeruns with our first rounders, have we. Kendricks is better than Barr, too.




Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/14/2020 5:54:32 PM)

10 first rounders since 2013:

Bad luck injury wise:
Sharrif Floyd - botched surgery, out of football
Teddy - devastating knee injury
Cook - knee
Hughes - knee

The by-most-accounts busts:
Patterson
Treadwell
The traded pick for Bradford.

Leaves Barr, Waynes, and so far Bradbury who are viable starters surviving more than a season w/o injury.




Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/14/2020 6:15:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lars

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lars

Bottom 20% would be an F.

"Average" is my opinion. My point is that they are not awful - IMHO - but have significant room for improvement.

There is no perfect unit or perfect team.


Right about 20% being an F. They are certainly better than that probably more like a C-


C- seems plenty reasonable to me.


they were pretty good on sacks allowed, and we were a top rushing team....so, it would seem that they should at least get a C-


I am not trying to defend the Oline, i think it was our weakest link, followed by the drop off in CB play


I suspect the 'improvement' was largely a scheme change. Now if we can add some talent to the scheme, we may be on too something

Elf was pretty bad most of the year, i dont think there is anything 'there'...obvious priority

Bradbury had a couple bright spots, but is very concerning, it will be a big set-back, if he cant improve markedly

Reiff was average (maybe slightly below), but is paid as a top 8, i think. He is more like 18ish, IMO. i could justify him as a player, but not at that price

Kline was a nice fine, not pro bowler, but a legit NFL player at the right price

Oneil is a stud, i dont know if he can play left tackle, but that guy is really good

They were more than functional against lesser defensive fronts but were abused like red-headed step children against the elite teams.


sure seemed that way

it feels like the scheme improved more than the players

we need a boost in talent to get us to the next level, i think


but at this stage, i dont know



It's probably that. The scheme did as well as it could covering up the weaknesses.




Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/14/2020 8:30:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

10 first rounders since 2013:

Bad luck injury wise:
Sharrif Floyd - botched surgery, out of football
Teddy - devastating knee injury
Cook - knee
Hughes - knee

The by-most-accounts busts:
Patterson
Treadwell
The traded pick for Bradford.

Leaves Barr, Waynes, and so far Bradbury who are viable starters surviving more than a season w/o injury.



Wasn't Cook a 2nd rounder? Was H Smith a trade up first rounder? When Was the LT drafted (already forgot his name)?

Interesting list. Jury is still out on Hughes and Bradbury. Floyd and Teddy looked good before injury. Patterson all world special teams, pls some gadget players. If you ask Zimmer - Barr is a stud. I thought Wilson should have replaced him. Waynes was a top 12 pick. Above average but under-performed compared to draft slot.




Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/14/2020 9:21:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

#1 FA target should G Joe Thuney

I'd be careful with a Patriots player. They make them better than they are a lot of the time.




bohumm -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/14/2020 9:32:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

#1 FA target should G Joe Thuney

I'd be careful with a Patriots player. They make them better than they are a lot of the time.

I wonder what that's like.....




kwheats -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/14/2020 9:36:14 PM)

The amazing thing about Kirk is he has started his last 79 games since 2015 and has taken some big hits!!!
At least he's no China doll, can you imagine our record this year if he got hurt.[sm=helga.gif]




Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/14/2020 9:51:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

10 first rounders since 2013:

Bad luck injury wise:
Sharrif Floyd - botched surgery, out of football
Teddy - devastating knee injury
Cook - knee
Hughes - knee

The by-most-accounts busts:
Patterson
Treadwell
The traded pick for Bradford.

Leaves Barr, Waynes, and so far Bradbury who are viable starters surviving more than a season w/o injury.



Wasn't Cook a 2nd rounder? Was H Smith a trade up first rounder? When Was the LT drafted (already forgot his name)?

Interesting list. Jury is still out on Hughes and Bradbury. Floyd and Teddy looked good before injury. Patterson all world special teams, pls some gadget players. If you ask Zimmer - Barr is a stud. I thought Wilson should have replaced him. Waynes was a top 12 pick. Above average but under-performed compared to draft slot.


Don't forget Rhodes, too.




Bill Jandro -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/15/2020 5:42:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

10 first rounders since 2013:

Bad luck injury wise:
Sharrif Floyd - botched surgery, out of football
Teddy - devastating knee injury
Cook - knee
Hughes - knee

The by-most-accounts busts:
Patterson
Treadwell
The traded pick for Bradford.

Leaves Barr, Waynes, and so far Bradbury who are viable starters surviving more than a season w/o injury.



Wasn't Cook a 2nd rounder? Was H Smith a trade up first rounder? When Was the LT drafted (already forgot his name)?

Interesting list. Jury is still out on Hughes and Bradbury. Floyd and Teddy looked good before injury. Patterson all world special teams, pls some gadget players. If you ask Zimmer - Barr is a stud. I thought Wilson should have replaced him. Waynes was a top 12 pick. Above average but under-performed compared to draft slot.


Don't forget Rhodes, too.

Not by us but Reiff was also a 1st rd pick




Daniel Lee Young -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/15/2020 6:05:37 AM)

Ok now that I have had some sleep and time to unwind...

This is my post Mortem on 2019-2020 season.

I stand by my call that it was a good season.

10-6 and making the dance and beating the Aints in the hurricane refugee dome is not “ accepting mediocrity”

Yea, I remember the days when we won the division and clinched early.. sweeping the rivals of our division was routine and became a norm.

Parity and rule changes and ownership and money have changed the game forever..
That is the reality of life.. things always change.

As most of us saw, and it was glaring, our offensive line and defensive line and the steep drop off of our secondary coverage were the top reasons this team struggled in the games we lost.

Injuries played a big part as well.

Love or hate him, Cousins did his job, when he wasn’t being forced to run for his life.

Play action and rollout/boot plays were effective.
Drop back pocket schemes flat out were not.

Elfline and Reif need to go, Rhodes, needs to go, the run first and second and hope to be in short yardage on third philosophy... (in other words), Zimmer ball... needs to be revamped.

I can not deny that Zimmer has beena good influence on the defensive side of the ball, but his unbending, unwillingness to sit player who are struggling and his penchant to make rookies and draft picks wait in the wings while his “ vets” get trucked and burned, is very disconcerting.

We have lost coaches, which was to be expected.. winners in the NFL loose co-ordinations, always.

Whether those guys were keys to certain types of success, or millstone around the franchise neck, remains to be seen.

Cook is/ was a good back, paired with Mattison, our running game was respectable and had to be game planned for by the opposition.

Unfortunately, that game plan was simple, same as with Peterson. runblitz, overload the middle and win the LOS/POA and the running game is stuffed.

That is a combination of players and blocking schemes, which is squarely on the coaches and more importantly, the management, for not understanding a basic tenet of the NFL.. you need offensive line players to be more than just bodies that get in the way. Strength and agility are irreplaceable skill sets that need to be present o a major degree from tackle to tackle.

Diggs and Thielen are top tier NFL caliber receivers, but the need to be on the field together. One without the other was way easier to defend.

That points out the ineffectiveness and lack of schemes and “threat worthy “ third receivers and tight ends.
Our passing game needs more dependable targets and a quarterback willing and able to trust and throw the ball to more than just 2-3 guys.

Look at the teams left in the playoffs..almost al of them have QB’s who spread the ball around.

Plus, and this is, again, our glaring weakness, protection and time to pick out other targets.

Defensively, Griff and Rhodes need to be shopped on the block for the best deals we can get.

I know that those players, much like Barr and Rudolph, have their staunch defenders, but, truth is, defense is a key to success and it must constantly be evolving.
Weakness and predictability are coffin nails.

The scheme brought out in N’Orleans was well thought out and I enjoyed/ stressed the f out watching that game, but it was fun and worth it.




Daniel Lee Young -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/15/2020 6:06:20 AM)

Way too much to cover in one post.. more later..




Bill Jandro -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/15/2020 6:24:51 AM)

Good job Dano

Might be the first time Zim is in a spot where he is going to have to make some hard choices about unproductive vet players that are dear to his heart.

We need to get stronger in the trenches is what I basically come away with at the end of this season. We beat up the bad teams but pretty much get emberrassed by the real good teams sans the NO's game.

The need to beat are rivals in our own division has to become the #1 priority.




eagleflorida -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/15/2020 8:17:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

Ok now that I have had some sleep and time to unwind...

This is my post Mortem on 2019-2020 season.

I stand by my call that it was a good season.

10-6 and making the dance and beating the Aints in the hurricane refugee dome is not “ accepting mediocrity”

Yea, I remember the days when we won the division and clinched early.. sweeping the rivals of our division was routine and became a norm.

Parity and rule changes and ownership and money have changed the game forever..
That is the reality of life.. things always change.

As most of us saw, and it was glaring, our offensive line and defensive line and the steep drop off of our secondary coverage were the top reasons this team struggled in the games we lost.

Injuries played a big part as well.

Love or hate him, Cousins did his job, when he wasn’t being forced to run for his life.

Play action and rollout/boot plays were effective.
Drop back pocket schemes flat out were not.

Elfline and Reif need to go, Rhodes, needs to go, the run first and second and hope to be in short yardage on third philosophy... (in other words), Zimmer ball... needs to be revamped.

I can not deny that Zimmer has beena good influence on the defensive side of the ball, but his unbending, unwillingness to sit player who are struggling and his penchant to make rookies and draft picks wait in the wings while his “ vets” get trucked and burned, is very disconcerting.

We have lost coaches, which was to be expected.. winners in the NFL loose co-ordinations, always.

Whether those guys were keys to certain types of success, or millstone around the franchise neck, remains to be seen.

Cook is/ was a good back, paired with Mattison, our running game was respectable and had to be game planned for by the opposition.

Unfortunately, that game plan was simple, same as with Peterson. runblitz, overload the middle and win the LOS/POA and the running game is stuffed.

That is a combination of players and blocking schemes, which is squarely on the coaches and more importantly, the management, for not understanding a basic tenet of the NFL.. you need offensive line players to be more than just bodies that get in the way. Strength and agility are irreplaceable skill sets that need to be present o a major degree from tackle to tackle.

Diggs and Thielen are top tier NFL caliber receivers, but the need to be on the field together. One without the other was way easier to defend.

That points out the ineffectiveness and lack of schemes and “threat worthy “ third receivers and tight ends.
Our passing game needs more dependable targets and a quarterback willing and able to trust and throw the ball to more than just 2-3 guys.

Look at the teams left in the playoffs..almost al of them have QB’s who spread the ball around.

Plus, and this is, again, our glaring weakness, protection and time to pick out other targets.

Defensively, Griff and Rhodes need to be shopped on the block for the best deals we can get.

I know that those players, much like Barr and Rudolph, have their staunch defenders, but, truth is, defense is a key to success and it must constantly be evolving.
Weakness and predictability are coffin nails.

The scheme brought out in N’Orleans was well thought out and I enjoyed/ stressed the f out watching that game, but it was fun and worth it.



Excellent wrap-up the season of the good & the bad. Nice job Dan.




Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/15/2020 9:23:30 AM)

Udoh, Watts, Oden, Samia, Hughes/Hill? Should be guys that can step in for Reiff, Elf, Joseph, Waynes, and Rhodes---.




thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/15/2020 9:58:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Udoh, Watts, Oden, Samia, Hughes/Hill? Should be guys that can step in for Reiff, Elf, Joseph, Waynes, and Rhodes---.


That would be the hope. I don't think we know what the reality is though.




Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/15/2020 10:13:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer
Udoh, Watts, Oden, Samia, Hughes/Hill? Should be guys that can step in for Reiff, Elf, Joseph, Waynes, and Rhodes---.

That would be the hope. I don't think we know what the reality is though.


As bad as Rhodes has regressed; Waynes is right there too...might have to let both go.




David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/15/2020 10:41:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer
Udoh, Watts, Oden, Samia, Hughes/Hill? Should be guys that can step in for Reiff, Elf, Joseph, Waynes, and Rhodes---.

That would be the hope. I don't think we know what the reality is though.


As bad as Rhodes has regressed; Waynes is right there too...might have to let both go.


PFF rankings (out of 214) for the 2019 season including playoffs:

Macenzie Alexander 67
Trae Waynes 73
Hill 85
Hughes 129
Boyd 169
Rhodes 187

If we believe in the rankings then we shouldn't be looking to retain any of them. However, since it's all of them then we have to take a look at the possibility of it being the scheme / poor coaching. That goes beyond what I can ascertain from my own observations. I do think back to the DB mutiny and the NFCCG vs Philly where the DBs thought they were 'being schemed'. I really don't know.




David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/15/2020 10:56:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer
Udoh, Watts, Oden, Samia, Hughes/Hill? Should be guys that can step in for Reiff, Elf, Joseph, Waynes, and Rhodes---.

That would be the hope. I don't think we know what the reality is though.


As bad as Rhodes has regressed; Waynes is right there too...might have to let both go.


PFF rankings (out of 214) for the 2019 season including playoffs:

Macenzie Alexander 67
Trae Waynes 73
Hill 85
Hughes 129
Boyd 169
Rhodes 187

If we believe in the rankings then we shouldn't be looking to retain any of them. However, since it's all of them then we have to take a look at the possibility of it being the scheme / poor coaching. That goes beyond what I can ascertain from my own observations. I do think back to the DB mutiny and the NFCCG vs Philly where the DBs thought they were 'being schemed'. I really don't know.


We did can the DB coach...




The Happy Norseman -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/15/2020 12:11:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer
Udoh, Watts, Oden, Samia, Hughes/Hill? Should be guys that can step in for Reiff, Elf, Joseph, Waynes, and Rhodes---.

That would be the hope. I don't think we know what the reality is though.


As bad as Rhodes has regressed; Waynes is right there too...might have to let both go.


PFF rankings (out of 214) for the 2019 season including playoffs:

Macenzie Alexander 67
Trae Waynes 73
Hill 85
Hughes 129
Boyd 169
Rhodes 187

If we believe in the rankings then we shouldn't be looking to retain any of them. However, since it's all of them then we have to take a look at the possibility of it being the scheme / poor coaching. That goes beyond what I can ascertain from my own observations. I do think back to the DB mutiny and the NFCCG vs Philly where the DBs thought they were 'being schemed'. I really don't know.


As we've seen repeatedly, if your front 4 can put pressure on the QB you don't need great corners. Since we're not going to be starting very good corners next year, probably Hughes and Hill, RS better find at least one stud DT and figure out how to use Barr consistently as a rusher.




jbusse -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/15/2020 12:49:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer
Udoh, Watts, Oden, Samia, Hughes/Hill? Should be guys that can step in for Reiff, Elf, Joseph, Waynes, and Rhodes---.

That would be the hope. I don't think we know what the reality is though.


As bad as Rhodes has regressed; Waynes is right there too...might have to let both go.


PFF rankings (out of 214) for the 2019 season including playoffs:

Macenzie Alexander 67
Trae Waynes 73
Hill 85
Hughes 129
Boyd 169
Rhodes 187

If we believe in the rankings then we shouldn't be looking to retain any of them. However, since it's all of them then we have to take a look at the possibility of it being the scheme / poor coaching. That goes beyond what I can ascertain from my own observations. I do think back to the DB mutiny and the NFCCG vs Philly where the DBs thought they were 'being schemed'. I really don't know.


We did can the DB coach...

Scapegoat. Unless Zimmer fired himself. Or maybe Zimmer doesn't spend as much time with the DBs as he used to.




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