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Ian Joseph -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 1:53:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H
If you don't think it will help anything, you haven't been paying much attention over the past two months.


So you thinks things have gotten better over the past two months?


Actually, yes they have. Maybe not for some individual people, but as a country, in the eyes of the oppressed, there has been more change in the last two months than perhaps any other period of time since the Civil Rights Movement.

If you can't see that, you're either purposely not looking or youre completely oblivious to the world around you.



Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 1:55:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H
If you don't think it will help anything, you haven't been paying much attention over the past two months.


So you thinks things have gotten better over the past two months?


Actually, yes they have. Maybe not for some individual people, but as a country, in the eyes of the oppressed, there has been more change in the last two months than perhaps any other period of time since the Civil Rights Movement.

If you can't see that, you're either purposely not looking or youre completely oblivious to the world around you.

Can there be a "C"; All of the Above?



unome -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 1:56:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H
If you don't think it will help anything, you haven't been paying much attention over the past two months.


So you thinks things have gotten better over the past two months?

Define things? There's a lot of those.


I guess I do not look at this country and think things have improved over the last two months because I understand how people from rural and suburban areas think.

They do not look at rioting and looting and see progress. They do not see what they will see as disrespecting the national flag as progress.

People from blue areas and Canada think differently. Peaceful, positive protests work. Violent or insulting protests will have the opposite effect.



Ian Joseph -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 1:56:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.


Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.


It forces people to have the conversation of why its occurring. And as long as people are willing to listen and not draw their own conclusions without first engaging, its the start to potentially meaningful dialogue.

And last time I checked, thats what has been attempted on this very site. All from kneeling.

How interesting.



unome -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 1:59:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.


Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.

Please explain how kneeling for the anthem will not? As I see it, awareness is sorely needed. Just in here alone I can see 2-3 examples of people who are not aware of systematic racism.


Patriotic people view kneeling as insulting the flag and the nation it represents. Doing something that insults the country will not help bridge the divide between anyone.



Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:00:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H
If you don't think it will help anything, you haven't been paying much attention over the past two months.


So you thinks things have gotten better over the past two months?

Define things? There's a lot of those.


I guess I do not look at this country and think things have improved over the last two months because I understand how people from rural and suburban areas think.

They do not look at rioting and looting and see progress. They do not see what they will see as disrespecting the national flag as progress.

People from blue areas and Canada think differently. Peaceful, positive protests work. Violent or insulting protests will have the opposite effect.

I would prefer non-violent protest, but no protest is not an option.

Over 600,000 died in the civil war. I don't think anyone would deny that it was worth it, with the exception of some people in South Carolina, Louisiana, Arkansas, Texas, Georgia, Mississippi, Kentucky, Tennessee and Alabama.



David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:01:01 PM)

Long-time Wolves and music writer (like going back 3 decades to City Pages) Britt Robson:

"I've lived in South Minneapolis since 1986. We own a home 2 miles from the Floyd murder, 3 miles from the 3rd Precinct that was burned + a half-mile from the carnage that happened around the 5th Precinct. I feel better about my neighbors + my neighborhood than I did 6 months ago."



Ian Joseph -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:01:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.


Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.

Please explain how kneeling for the anthem will not? As I see it, awareness is sorely needed. Just in here alone I can see 2-3 examples of people who are not aware of systematic racism.


Patriotic people view kneeling as insulting the flag and the nation it represents. Doing something that insults the country will not help bridge the divide between anyone.


Did all of the patriotic people in this country tell you that? Or is that just your opinion of how patriotic people view things?



David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:02:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.


Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.

Please explain how kneeling for the anthem will not? As I see it, awareness is sorely needed. Just in here alone I can see 2-3 examples of people who are not aware of systematic racism.


Patriotic people view kneeling as insulting the flag and the nation it represents. Doing something that insults the country will not help bridge the divide between anyone.


How exceptionally narrow-minded of you.

So anyone that is OK with kneeling is unpatriotic?

You can love something and still find faults with it.



unome -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:03:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.


Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.


It forces people to have the conversation of why its occurring. And as long as people are willing to listen and not draw their own conclusions without first engaging, its the start to potentially meaningful dialogue.

And last time I checked, thats what has been attempted on this very site. All from kneeling.

How interesting.


Reread the last two pages and tell me that kneeling has created a positive discussion. It started with vicious insults and it the potshots and slams have continued.

A discussion is good only if it is constructive and respectful. You are MAGA this and "you are a bad person" that is not helping any of these issue get better at all.



Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:05:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.


Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.



There's the intangible that we might never know, ie butterfly affect of giving a voice to millions of oppressed. Who knows who or how that might inspire. You don't think Lebron working with the youth can affect change?

There's the tangible of millions flowing into foundations to address this issue from the NFL and many NFL teams have partnered with police departments. I'd have to look up NFL numbers but the NBA just announced 300M.

You say the resistance of the Civil Rights was effective, but fail to see the division of that time period? The National Guard had to escort children into schools because of division. Ali was arrested for disrespecting the country. Did that not affect change? I could go on and on, but you having to ask this question shows how ignorant you truly are and how little research you've actually done on this topic.

F*** the call for unifying the country if injustice is allowed to continue.



Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:05:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.


Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.


It forces people to have the conversation of why its occurring. And as long as people are willing to listen and not draw their own conclusions without first engaging, its the start to potentially meaningful dialogue.

And last time I checked, thats what has been attempted on this very site. All from kneeling.

How interesting.


Reread the last two pages and tell me that kneeling has created a positive discussion. It started with vicious insults and it the potshots and slams have continued.

A discussion is good only if it is constructive and respectful. You are MAGA this and "you are a bad person" that is not helping any of these issue get better at all.

For what it's worth, I called you neither. I merely pointed out the flaws in your argument, for which there were many.



unome -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:07:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.


Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.

Please explain how kneeling for the anthem will not? As I see it, awareness is sorely needed. Just in here alone I can see 2-3 examples of people who are not aware of systematic racism.


Patriotic people view kneeling as insulting the flag and the nation it represents. Doing something that insults the country will not help bridge the divide between anyone.


How exceptionally narrow-minded of you.

So anyone that is OK with kneeling is unpatriotic?

You can love something and still find faults with it.


Oh please. Yes, I should have said most or many before the word patriotic.

I can find faults in the country as well. A whole lot of them. But I will still stand for the Anthem.



Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:07:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.


Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.

Please explain how kneeling for the anthem will not? As I see it, awareness is sorely needed. Just in here alone I can see 2-3 examples of people who are not aware of systematic racism.


Patriotic people view kneeling as insulting the flag and the nation it represents. Doing something that insults the country will not help bridge the divide between anyone.


How exceptionally narrow-minded of you.

So anyone that is OK with kneeling is unpatriotic?

You can love something and still find faults with it.

A this point, I could give a rats ass if I am considered patriotic or not. I'm far more married to humanity than any silly form of national pride.



Ian Joseph -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:12:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.


Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.


It forces people to have the conversation of why its occurring. And as long as people are willing to listen and not draw their own conclusions without first engaging, its the start to potentially meaningful dialogue.

And last time I checked, thats what has been attempted on this very site. All from kneeling.

How interesting.


Reread the last two pages and tell me that kneeling has created a positive discussion. It started with vicious insults and it the potshots and slams have continued.

A discussion is good only if it is constructive and respectful. You are MAGA this and "you are a bad person" that is not helping any of these issue get better at all.


It has for me. I didnt know Brad was as progressive and inclusive as he is. And I've appreciated the hell out of seeing that side of him.

I've also appreciated the dialogue and seeing the differences people have, and how close or far apart they are from mine. To me, THAT is positive.

I neither expect nor need kumbaya on this issue, for the sake of having peace. Damn that. I just want folks to be real. Nothing more, nothing less.



unome -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:15:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.


Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.



There's the intangible that we might never know, ie butterfly affect of giving a voice to millions of oppressed. Who knows who or how that might inspire. You don't think Lebron working with the youth can affect change?

There's the tangible of millions flowing into foundations to address this issue from the NFL and many NFL teams have partnered with police departments. I'd have to look up NFL numbers but the NBA just announced 300M.

You say the resistance of the Civil Rights was effective, but fail to see the division of that time period? The National Guard had to escort children into schools because of division. Ali was arrested for disrespecting the country. Did that not affect change? I could go on and on, but you having to ask this question shows how ignorant you truly are and how little research you've actually done on this topic.

F*** the call for unifying the country if injustice is allowed to continue.


Of course, people working with the youth can affect positive change. Of course, partnering with police departments can affect positive change.

Kneeling for the Anthem is not even vaguely like either of those two things.

Martin Luther King Jr. figured out that some actions and protests would achieve positive change and some would have the opposite effect.

What happened to discernment? Ending systemic racism is a inherent good, but that does not mean that every action taken on its behalf is an inherent good. But, feel free to see how your choice to "f#@% unity" when it comes to kneeling for the Anthem will work because I can assure you, this is the wrong tactic for the right motives.



Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:17:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.


Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.



There's the intangible that we might never know, ie butterfly affect of giving a voice to millions of oppressed. Who knows who or how that might inspire. You don't think Lebron working with the youth can affect change?

There's the tangible of millions flowing into foundations to address this issue from the NFL and many NFL teams have partnered with police departments. I'd have to look up NFL numbers but the NBA just announced 300M.

You say the resistance of the Civil Rights was effective, but fail to see the division of that time period? The National Guard had to escort children into schools because of division. Ali was arrested for disrespecting the country. Did that not affect change? I could go on and on, but you having to ask this question shows how ignorant you truly are and how little research you've actually done on this topic.

F*** the call for unifying the country if injustice is allowed to continue.


Of course, people working with the youth can affect positive change. Of course, partnering with police departments can affect positive change.

Kneeling for the Anthem is not even vaguely like either of those two things.

Martin Luther King Jr. figured out that some actions and protests would achieve positive change and some would have the opposite effect.

What happened to discernment? Ending systemic racism is a inherent good, but that does not mean that every action taken on its behalf is an inherent good. But, feel free to see how your choice to "f#@% unity" when it comes to kneeling for the Anthem will work because I can assure you, this is the wrong tactic for the right motives.


You think the NBA or NFL donates the money without the anthem protests?

You think NFL owners partner with police departments without the anthem protests?

You asked and I answered. Up to you whether to pull back the veil.



Ian Joseph -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:17:45 PM)

Kneeling for the anthem is about to be the norm. And the people refusing to either kneel or acknowledge why the kneeling is occurring will be in the minority.

And everyone else won't care.



Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:21:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

Kneeling for the anthem is about to be the norm. And the people refusing to either kneel or acknowledge why the kneeling is occurring will be in the minority.

And everyone else won't care.

And for those that wish not watch football as a result, have fun watching John Wayne reruns on the Classic Movie Channel, where you can live out your fairy tale of people pulling them self up by the bootstraps.



unome -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:26:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.


Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.


It forces people to have the conversation of why its occurring. And as long as people are willing to listen and not draw their own conclusions without first engaging, its the start to potentially meaningful dialogue.

And last time I checked, thats what has been attempted on this very site. All from kneeling.

How interesting.


Reread the last two pages and tell me that kneeling has created a positive discussion. It started with vicious insults and it the potshots and slams have continued.

A discussion is good only if it is constructive and respectful. You are MAGA this and "you are a bad person" that is not helping any of these issue get better at all.


It has for me. I didnt know Brad was as progressive and inclusive as he is. And I've appreciated the hell out of seeing that side of him.

I've also appreciated the dialogue and seeing the differences people have, and how close or far apart they are from mine. To me, THAT is positive.

I neither expect nor need kumbaya on this issue, for the sake of having peace. Damn that. I just want folks to be real. Nothing more, nothing less.


Awesome.

I have nothing but respect for the cause of civil rights. I have always fought against racism whenever I could. I love the 14th Amendment and what it does when the Supreme Court started interpreting it the way it was plainly written in the 50s and beyond.

I love the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

And, like most Americans, watching the Cop sit on George Floyd's throat for eight minutes made me want to throw up.

But I can tell you that kneeling for the Anthem is not the kind of divisiveness that will play well in many parts of the US. Many here either do not care or see this as a positive, but I can assure you that it will not help racism one iota and, if anything, may make things worse.

I do not see a path where insulting the flag and country it represents is going to help the cause of racial justice and I have not seen one post that is even slightly compelling in making such an argument.



David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:28:22 PM)

We really need to come up with some protests that make no one uncomfortable....



Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:30:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

We really need to come up with some protests that make no one uncomfortable....


[&:][&:][&:][&:]



paulgly -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:33:46 PM)

'Why can't they peacefully protest'? Peaceful march downtown = 'these assholes are making my commute longer!' Takes a knee = 'I was in the line getting a beer during the national anthem but what an unpatriotic traitor!'



unome -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:34:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.


Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.



There's the intangible that we might never know, ie butterfly affect of giving a voice to millions of oppressed. Who knows who or how that might inspire. You don't think Lebron working with the youth can affect change?

There's the tangible of millions flowing into foundations to address this issue from the NFL and many NFL teams have partnered with police departments. I'd have to look up NFL numbers but the NBA just announced 300M.

You say the resistance of the Civil Rights was effective, but fail to see the division of that time period? The National Guard had to escort children into schools because of division. Ali was arrested for disrespecting the country. Did that not affect change? I could go on and on, but you having to ask this question shows how ignorant you truly are and how little research you've actually done on this topic.

F*** the call for unifying the country if injustice is allowed to continue.


Of course, people working with the youth can affect positive change. Of course, partnering with police departments can affect positive change.

Kneeling for the Anthem is not even vaguely like either of those two things.

Martin Luther King Jr. figured out that some actions and protests would achieve positive change and some would have the opposite effect.

What happened to discernment? Ending systemic racism is a inherent good, but that does not mean that every action taken on its behalf is an inherent good. But, feel free to see how your choice to "f#@% unity" when it comes to kneeling for the Anthem will work because I can assure you, this is the wrong tactic for the right motives.


You think the NBA or NFL donates the money without the anthem protests?

You think NFL owners partner with police departments without the anthem protests?

You asked and I answered. Up to you whether to pull back the veil.


I think both leagues are responding to their players concerns and anger. I guess the Anthem kneeling and the wildcat strikes could be seen as one in the same: players doing economic damage to the league to support a cause they see as worthy.

The NFL acted in 2016 because they saw a huge drop in the sales of their merchandise during the kneeling incident. It is ironic that at the same time Kaepernick's jersey was the best seller in the league, the overall merch sales tanked.

BTW, I am actually in this business so this is not my opinion or something I read. It was a big deal.

Who knows? Maybe people stopped caring about people kneeling for the Anthem in the past four years, but I doubt it.



unome -> RE: General Vikes Talk (8/30/2020 2:41:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

We really need to come up with some protests that make no one uncomfortable....


Nope. But I can tell you that protests that insult the core values of other Americans will also not be effective.

I think this is all kind of crazy. The people that support kneeling for the Anthem already want to end systemic racism. The people that you really want to convince are the exact same type of people that will be insulted by this action. This is feeling more like angry people wanting to spite the other guys than any sort of an attempt at positive change.

I am telling you that insulting the flag is not the way to create positive change. But, we will see how this choice of protest will work and I do not see it going well.



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