quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.

Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.

There's the intangible that we might never know, ie butterfly affect of giving a voice to millions of oppressed. Who knows who or how that might inspire. You don't think Lebron working with the youth can affect change?

There's the tangible of millions flowing into foundations to address this issue from the NFL and many NFL teams have partnered with police departments. I'd have to look up NFL numbers but the NBA just announced 300M.

You say the resistance of the Civil Rights was effective, but fail to see the division of that time period? The National Guard had to escort children into schools because of division. Ali was arrested for disrespecting the country. Did that not affect change? I could go on and on, but you having to ask this question shows how ignorant you truly are and how little research you've actually done on this topic.

F*** the call for unifying the country if injustice is allowed to continue.

Of course, people working with the youth can affect positive change. Of course, partnering with police departments can affect positive change.

Kneeling for the Anthem is not even vaguely like either of those two things.

Martin Luther King Jr. figured out that some actions and protests would achieve positive change and some would have the opposite effect.

What happened to discernment? Ending systemic racism is a inherent good, but that does not mean that every action taken on its behalf is an inherent good. But, feel free to see how your choice to "f#@% unity" when it comes to kneeling for the Anthem will work because I can assure you, this is the wrong tactic for the right motives.

You think the NBA or NFL donates the money without the anthem protests?

You think NFL owners partner with police departments without the anthem protests?

You asked and I answered. Up to you whether to pull back the veil.

I think both leagues are responding to their players concerns and anger. I guess the Anthem kneeling and the wildcat strikes could be seen as one in the same: players doing economic damage to the league to support a cause they see as worthy.

The NFL acted in 2016 because they saw a huge drop in the sales of their merchandise during the kneeling incident. It is ironic that at the same time Kaepernick's jersey was the best seller in the league, the overall merch sales tanked.

BTW, I am actually in this business so this is not my opinion or something I read. It was a big deal.

Who knows? Maybe people stopped caring about people kneeling for the Anthem in the past four years, but I doubt it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

We really need to come up with some protests that make no one uncomfortable....

Nope. But I can tell you that protests that insult the core values of other Americans will also not be effective.

I think this is all kind of crazy. The people that support kneeling for the Anthem already want to end systemic racism. The people that you really want to convince are the exact same type of people that will be insulted by this action. This is feeling more like angry people wanting to spite the other guys than any sort of an attempt at positive change.

I am telling you that insulting the flag is not the way to create positive change. But, we will see how this choice of protest will work and I do not see it going well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.

Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.

There's the intangible that we might never know, ie butterfly affect of giving a voice to millions of oppressed. Who knows who or how that might inspire. You don't think Lebron working with the youth can affect change?

There's the tangible of millions flowing into foundations to address this issue from the NFL and many NFL teams have partnered with police departments. I'd have to look up NFL numbers but the NBA just announced 300M.

You say the resistance of the Civil Rights was effective, but fail to see the division of that time period? The National Guard had to escort children into schools because of division. Ali was arrested for disrespecting the country. Did that not affect change? I could go on and on, but you having to ask this question shows how ignorant you truly are and how little research you've actually done on this topic.

F*** the call for unifying the country if injustice is allowed to continue.

Of course, people working with the youth can affect positive change. Of course, partnering with police departments can affect positive change.

Kneeling for the Anthem is not even vaguely like either of those two things.

Martin Luther King Jr. figured out that some actions and protests would achieve positive change and some would have the opposite effect.

What happened to discernment? Ending systemic racism is a inherent good, but that does not mean that every action taken on its behalf is an inherent good. But, feel free to see how your choice to "f#@% unity" when it comes to kneeling for the Anthem will work because I can assure you, this is the wrong tactic for the right motives.

You think the NBA or NFL donates the money without the anthem protests?

You think NFL owners partner with police departments without the anthem protests?

You asked and I answered. Up to you whether to pull back the veil.

I think both leagues are responding to their players concerns and anger. I guess the Anthem kneeling and the wildcat strikes could be seen as one in the same: players doing economic damage to the league to support a cause they see as worthy.

The NFL acted in 2016 because they saw a huge drop in the sales of their merchandise during the kneeling incident. It is ironic that at the same time Kaepernick's jersey was the best seller in the league, the overall merch sales tanked.

BTW, I am actually in this business so this is not my opinion or something I read. It was a big deal.

Who knows? Maybe people stopped caring about people kneeling for the Anthem in the past four years, but I doubt it.

So you admit that Kaepernick kneeling caused change??

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

We really need to come up with some protests that make no one uncomfortable....

Nope. But I can tell you that protests that insult the core values of other Americans will also not be effective.

I think this is all kind of crazy. The people that support kneeling for the Anthem already want to end systemic racism. The people that you really want to convince are the exact same type of people that will be insulted by this action. This is feeling more like angry people wanting to spite the other guys than any sort of an attempt at positive change.

I am telling you that insulting the flag is not the way to create positive change. But, we will see how this choice of protest will work and I do not see it going well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.

Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.

There's the intangible that we might never know, ie butterfly affect of giving a voice to millions of oppressed. Who knows who or how that might inspire. You don't think Lebron working with the youth can affect change?

There's the tangible of millions flowing into foundations to address this issue from the NFL and many NFL teams have partnered with police departments. I'd have to look up NFL numbers but the NBA just announced 300M.

You say the resistance of the Civil Rights was effective, but fail to see the division of that time period? The National Guard had to escort children into schools because of division. Ali was arrested for disrespecting the country. Did that not affect change? I could go on and on, but you having to ask this question shows how ignorant you truly are and how little research you've actually done on this topic.

F*** the call for unifying the country if injustice is allowed to continue.

Of course, people working with the youth can affect positive change. Of course, partnering with police departments can affect positive change.

Kneeling for the Anthem is not even vaguely like either of those two things.

Martin Luther King Jr. figured out that some actions and protests would achieve positive change and some would have the opposite effect.

What happened to discernment? Ending systemic racism is a inherent good, but that does not mean that every action taken on its behalf is an inherent good. But, feel free to see how your choice to "f#@% unity" when it comes to kneeling for the Anthem will work because I can assure you, this is the wrong tactic for the right motives.

You think the NBA or NFL donates the money without the anthem protests?

You think NFL owners partner with police departments without the anthem protests?

You asked and I answered. Up to you whether to pull back the veil.

I think both leagues are responding to their players concerns and anger. I guess the Anthem kneeling and the wildcat strikes could be seen as one in the same: players doing economic damage to the league to support a cause they see as worthy.

The NFL acted in 2016 because they saw a huge drop in the sales of their merchandise during the kneeling incident. It is ironic that at the same time Kaepernick's jersey was the best seller in the league, the overall merch sales tanked.

BTW, I am actually in this business so this is not my opinion or something I read. It was a big deal.

Who knows? Maybe people stopped caring about people kneeling for the Anthem in the past four years, but I doubt it.

So you admit that Kaepernick kneeling caused change??

Yes, it cause negative change. I did mistakenly think that we all wanted positive change, but I guess maybe I should not assume.

Change is not inherently a good thing.

Peaceful protests: good change. Riots and looting: bad change.

Appealing to people's core value: good change. Insulting people's core values; bad change.

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.

Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.

There's the intangible that we might never know, ie butterfly affect of giving a voice to millions of oppressed. Who knows who or how that might inspire. You don't think Lebron working with the youth can affect change?

There's the tangible of millions flowing into foundations to address this issue from the NFL and many NFL teams have partnered with police departments. I'd have to look up NFL numbers but the NBA just announced 300M.

You say the resistance of the Civil Rights was effective, but fail to see the division of that time period? The National Guard had to escort children into schools because of division. Ali was arrested for disrespecting the country. Did that not affect change? I could go on and on, but you having to ask this question shows how ignorant you truly are and how little research you've actually done on this topic.

F*** the call for unifying the country if injustice is allowed to continue.

Of course, people working with the youth can affect positive change. Of course, partnering with police departments can affect positive change.

Kneeling for the Anthem is not even vaguely like either of those two things.

Martin Luther King Jr. figured out that some actions and protests would achieve positive change and some would have the opposite effect.

What happened to discernment? Ending systemic racism is a inherent good, but that does not mean that every action taken on its behalf is an inherent good. But, feel free to see how your choice to "f#@% unity" when it comes to kneeling for the Anthem will work because I can assure you, this is the wrong tactic for the right motives.

You think the NBA or NFL donates the money without the anthem protests?

You think NFL owners partner with police departments without the anthem protests?

You asked and I answered. Up to you whether to pull back the veil.

I think both leagues are responding to their players concerns and anger. I guess the Anthem kneeling and the wildcat strikes could be seen as one in the same: players doing economic damage to the league to support a cause they see as worthy.

The NFL acted in 2016 because they saw a huge drop in the sales of their merchandise during the kneeling incident. It is ironic that at the same time Kaepernick's jersey was the best seller in the league, the overall merch sales tanked.

BTW, I am actually in this business so this is not my opinion or something I read. It was a big deal.

Who knows? Maybe people stopped caring about people kneeling for the Anthem in the past four years, but I doubt it.

So you admit that Kaepernick kneeling caused change??

Yes, it cause negative change. I did mistakenly think that we all wanted positive change, but I guess maybe I should not assume.

Change is not inherently a good thing.

Peaceful protests: good change. Riots and looting: bad change.

Appealing to people's core value: good change. Insulting people's core values; bad change.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager
Those that are the most offended will not be convinced by any method. It's those that are apathetic or too busy with their lives that need to be woke. The polling on this topic has changed dramatically in 2020 alone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome


Yes, it cause negative change. I did mistakenly think that we all wanted positive change, but I guess maybe I should not assume.

Change is not inherently a good thing.

Peaceful protests: good change. Riots and looting: bad change.

Appealing to people's core value: good change. Insulting people's core values; bad change.

Kneeling during the national anthem is a peaceful protest, but keep going.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Long-time Wolves and music writer (like going back 3 decades to City Pages) Britt Robson:

"I've lived in South Minneapolis since 1986. We own a home 2 miles from the Floyd murder, 3 miles from the 3rd Precinct that was burned + a half-mile from the carnage that happened around the 5th Precinct. I feel better about my neighbors + my neighborhood than I did 6 months ago."

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome


Yes, it cause negative change. I did mistakenly think that we all wanted positive change, but I guess maybe I should not assume.

Change is not inherently a good thing.

Peaceful protests: good change. Riots and looting: bad change.

Appealing to people's core value: good change. Insulting people's core values; bad change.

Kneeling during the national anthem is a peaceful protest, but keep going.....

Did I write any other words?

Let me help: Insulting people's core values; bad change.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager


Working with police departments is good change by your own admission (as just one example). And it was caused by kneeling for the anthem. You've answered your own question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

And how far does kind, gentle, not messy change get us?

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

What core values are you referring to, because as I said above, symbols reflect values, but aren't values in and of themselves. Unless the core value is rote, requisite adherence to articles and rituals of propaganda.

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

What core values are you referring to, because as I said above, symbols reflect values, but aren't values in and of themselves. Unless the core value is rote, requisite adherence to articles and rituals of propaganda.

Many people really only think in symbols. In fact, the very notion of kneeling for the Anthem would be pointless if people actually had your attitude toward symbolism.

Again, I cannot see how being disrespectful toward the country, even if it is just the symbols of the country, will impart positive change in the hearts of those that are insulted by it.

I believe it will have the opposite effect.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

From Thomas Jefferson: When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

What core values are you referring to, because as I said above, symbols reflect values, but aren't values in and of themselves. Unless the core value is rote, requisite adherence to articles and rituals of propaganda.

Many people really only think in symbols. In fact, the very notion of kneeling for the Anthem would be pointless if people actually had your attitude toward symbolism.

Again, I cannot see how being disrespectful toward the country, even if it is just the symbols of the country, will impart positive change in the hearts of those that are insulted by it.

I believe it will have the opposite effect.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

What core values are you referring to, because as I said above, symbols reflect values, but aren't values in and of themselves. Unless the core value is rote, requisite adherence to articles and rituals of propaganda.

Many people really only think in symbols. In fact, the very notion of kneeling for the Anthem would be pointless if people actually had your attitude toward symbolism.

Again, I cannot see how being disrespectful toward the country, even if it is just the symbols of the country, will impart positive change in the hearts of those that are insulted by it.

I believe it will have the opposite effect.

If these aggrieved "patriots" really feel so strongly about disrespecting the country and the flag, then they must have been outraged by the way Trump wiped his ass with the flag and used the symbol of the White House (while perpetrating a clear violation of the Hatch Act) during a ritualistic circle jerk recalling every autocratic ruler of the past century.

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

At some point the little guy stands up and fights. Nothing is more American than that. I will join them in taking a knee, because it is the most American thing to do. If you were a true patriot for mankind, you'd do the same.

What Colin Kaepernick said in 2016: "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color"

In just 4 short years, Hoiseth, and others, have manage to complete reinvent kneeling for the National Anthem into what any true patriot would do. ????

But the kneeling clearly, and unambiguously, started as a protest against showing pride in a country that Kaepernick has no pride for. And his lack of pride/patriotism is not my opinion, but his plainly spoken opinion.

How did kneeling for the National Anthem get to be anything even remotely positive about one's feelings toward the country when it started as the complete opposite and still means that to many, many Americans?

If anyone has ever spent any time in a red state, they would know that no matter how much spin someone tries to put on kneeling for the Anthem, most people in those areas will never see it as anything but unpatriotic and an insult to what they hold most dear.

Now, if you want to insult patriotic people, I guess you have found a great way to do it. Just do not pretend kneeling for the anthem will doing anything other than increase the divide in the nation because that is reality whether you want to believe it or not.

Are you ****in kidding me?! You highlighted the part of his quote that you find offensive, but omitted the part of WHY HE IS DOING IT, which is immediately after the last word you highlighted. Stop it.

The kneeling has never been about being unpatriotic. Its about shining a light on all of the shit that has happened and has been happening since he last played a game.

He was protesting for George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, long before their incidents actually occurred. Dude was waaaaay out in front on this issue, long before anyone else.

I dont know what bubble or bed and breakfast some of you are living in, but you need to wake the **** up and come outside from your bullshit reality and see how the rest of this country is living.. and suffering.

No, I am not kidding you.

I could have stopped his quote at the end of bolded, but I did include the whole quote. Why would I have included the whole quote if I was trying to misrepresent his words?

I do not not live in a bubble, but I think some of you guys do.

Kneeling for the Anthem will do NOTHING to help racism, systemic or otherwise. If you think it will make anything better at all then you have not talked to thee people that feel insulted by it.

Please, someone explain how insulting the patriotism that many feel towards this country will help make the country or race relations better? I am not saying that you, or anyone has to be patriotic, but how kneeling for the Anthem will help make things better?

Some protests make things better and some don't. This is one that will not. Protesting racism is a great idea, but this is a crappy way to do it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

If it looks like a duck....

Are people really that binary in your mind?

You’ve proven to be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.

Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

IF DIVIDE is what is needed to overturn systematic racism then we should be divided.

Please explain how kneeling for the National Anthem will accomplish this. No more lame vagueness. Explain how that will do anything at all to help end systemic racism.

It forces people to have the conversation of why its occurring. And as long as people are willing to listen and not draw their own conclusions without first engaging, its the start to potentially meaningful dialogue.

And last time I checked, thats what has been attempted on this very site. All from kneeling.

How interesting.

Reread the last two pages and tell me that kneeling has created a positive discussion. It started with vicious insults and it the potshots and slams have continued.

A discussion is good only if it is constructive and respectful. You are MAGA this and "you are a bad person" that is not helping any of these issue get better at all.

It has for me. I didnt know Brad was as progressive and inclusive as he is. And I've appreciated the hell out of seeing that side of him.

I've also appreciated the dialogue and seeing the differences people have, and how close or far apart they are from mine. To me, THAT is positive.

I neither expect nor need kumbaya on this issue, for the sake of having peace. Damn that. I just want folks to be real. Nothing more, nothing less.

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

What core values are you referring to, because as I said above, symbols reflect values, but aren't values in and of themselves. Unless the core value is rote, requisite adherence to articles and rituals of propaganda.

Many people really only think in symbols. In fact, the very notion of kneeling for the Anthem would be pointless if people actually had your attitude toward symbolism.

Again, I cannot see how being disrespectful toward the country, even if it is just the symbols of the country, will impart positive change in the hearts of those that are insulted by it.

I believe it will have the opposite effect.

If these aggrieved "patriots" really feel so strongly about disrespecting the country and the flag, then they must have been outraged by the way Trump wiped his ass with the flag and used the symbol of the White House (while perpetrating a clear violation of the Hatch Act) during a ritualistic circle jerk recalling every autocratic ruler of the past century.

Trump is a tool, but I really doubt most people that would consider voting for him will somehow be insulted by the fact that he, like almost every politician since forever, wrapped himself in the flag and other patriotic symbolism.

And 95+% of the people do not known what the Hatch Act is, so I am pretty sure that is not swinging a lot of votes.

But let's take partisan politics out of this, will kneeling for the Anthem help sway many patriotic people to have more desire to change systemic racism? In my opinion, the answer is a pretty clear no. And if we both agree that ending racism is a good thing, then a person, like me, that believes kneeling for the Anthem will harm the cause of ending racism will be opposed to such an action.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

At some point the little guy stands up and fights. Nothing is more American than that. I will join them in taking a knee, because it is the most American thing to do. If you were a true patriot for mankind, you'd do the same.

What Colin Kaepernick said in 2016: "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color"

In just 4 short years, Hoiseth, and others, have manage to complete reinvent kneeling for the National Anthem into what any true patriot would do. ????

But the kneeling clearly, and unambiguously, started as a protest against showing pride in a country that Kaepernick has no pride for. And his lack of pride/patriotism is not my opinion, but his plainly spoken opinion. How did kneeling for the National Anthem get to be anything even remotely positive about one's feelings toward the country when it started as the complete opposite and still means that to many, many Americans?

If anyone has ever spent any time in a red state, they would know that no matter how much spin someone tries to put on kneeling for the Anthem, most people in those areas will never see it as anything but unpatriotic and an insult to what they hold most dear.

Now, if you want to insult patriotic people, I guess you have found a great way to do it. Just do not pretend kneeling for the anthem will be doing anything other than increase the divide in the nation because that is reality whether you want to believe it or not.

First off, what makes you think you know what Colin Kaepernick has pride in or doesn't have pride in? For a second rate poster on the TalkVikes site, you seem to be in the heads of a lot of people you know absolutely nothing about.

A lot of people died on the battle field so that Kaepernick could take a knee during the national anthem. Who are you to tell them their fight was in vain?