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Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 1:54:16 PM)
More from Griffin...UUGH Minnesota Vikings Everson Griffen @EversonGriffen · 12m @vikings Just want to apologize to Kurt cousin for calling him out completely insane of me. I will be getting some help. Checking myself in. I love everybody and want everybody safe. Sorry for doing this crazy thing.

Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 1:55:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall Has any head coach been with a team as long as Zimmer without winning a Super Bowl and did eventually? Count me in the camp of “message gets old after a while and just time to move on”. Andy Reid. But he drafted speed and stud QB. Zim is going to have to win the SB this (current) season to match Reid... Nope. Reid won in his 7th season, Zimmer has completed 7 seasons in Minny.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 1:57:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall Has any head coach been with a team as long as Zimmer without winning a Super Bowl and did eventually? Count me in the camp of “message gets old after a while and just time to move on”. Andy Reid. But he drafted speed and stud QB. Zim is going to have to win the SB this (current) season to match Reid... Nope. Reid won in his 7th season, Zimmer has completed 7 seasons in Minny. Kind of close though...Reid had all the Experience in Philly.....same as Belichik. Browns coach first then came back under Parcells and then became coach. Difference is those two had a ton of experience as HC.....Maybe why Kubiak, Norv, etc. are brought in and leave. Just good enough to win titles and a playoff game or two....needs to step it up.

David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 1:58:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall Has any head coach been with a team as long as Zimmer without winning a Super Bowl and did eventually? Count me in the camp of “message gets old after a while and just time to move on”. Andy Reid. But he drafted speed and stud QB. Zim is going to have to win the SB this (current) season to match Reid... Nope. Reid won in his 7th season, Zimmer has completed 7 seasons in Minny. That's what I said. Zim needs to win THIS Super Bowl. I mean, its going to be tricky, but its what he needs to do.

Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 2:01:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall Has any head coach been with a team as long as Zimmer without winning a Super Bowl and did eventually? Count me in the camp of “message gets old after a while and just time to move on”. Andy Reid. But he drafted speed and stud QB. Zim is going to have to win the SB this (current) season to match Reid... Nope. Reid won in his 7th season, Zimmer has completed 7 seasons in Minny. That's what I said. Zim needs to win THIS Super Bowl. I mean, its going to be tricky, but its what he needs to do. True.

Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 2:02:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall Has any head coach been with a team as long as Zimmer without winning a Super Bowl and did eventually? Count me in the camp of “message gets old after a while and just time to move on”. Andy Reid. But he drafted speed and stud QB. Zim is going to have to win the SB this (current) season to match Reid... Nope. Reid won in his 7th season, Zimmer has completed 7 seasons in Minny. Kind of close though...Reid had all the Experience in Philly.....same as Belichik. Browns coach first then came back under Parcells and then became coach. Difference is those two had a ton of experience as HC.....Maybe why Kubiak, Norv, etc. are brought in and leave. Just good enough to win titles and a playoff game or two....needs to step it up. How is it "kind of close"? What is "kind of close"? Zimmer here can't even get past the first round!

bohumm -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 2:05:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott quote: ORIGINAL: bohumm The biggest problem with this team seems to be at the top (Wilfs>Spielman>Zimmer). The short term solution would seem to be whatever changes the top. I'd like to see the Wilfs sell, since they don't seem up to the task of delivering a Super Bowl. Since that probably won't happen soon, whatever gets Spielman and Zimmer axed comes next. I say give Zimmer what he wants and then shit-can both when that doesn't work. Run-first and control-but-don't-attack defense doesn't work in the NFL today, IMO. We've tried it, and it delivers 7-10 wins per year with outliers, but doesn't get close to the summit. I am seriously curious what more the owners can do? The team is not being led by someone cheap like the previous owner and the current owners of the Twins. They've spent to improve facilities, upgrade to the best technology etc. Is it just that they don't have a quick trigger on firing coaches that you don't like? I guess I can understand that. I am ready to move on from RS and Zim. But they have success and then they they don't. Sometimes when you get ownership that meddles too much it is a detriment. Hire people capable of winning the championship, if that is truly the point of the exercise. Extending them as well as Kirk is the problem I have, and in some ways I have less of a problem with Kirk's extension than theirs. I agree that at least they spend and they don't seem overly meddlesome, but sticking with this regime---and doubling down going into the season---is troubling at best. I like Zim and Spielman as people (as far as I can tell), but they shouldn't be the ones doing this rebuild---especially since they tried and failed dramatically with the soft rebuild this year.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 2:05:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall Has any head coach been with a team as long as Zimmer without winning a Super Bowl and did eventually? Count me in the camp of “message gets old after a while and just time to move on”. Andy Reid. But he drafted speed and stud QB. Zim is going to have to win the SB this (current) season to match Reid... Nope. Reid won in his 7th season, Zimmer has completed 7 seasons in Minny. Kind of close though...Reid had all the Experience in Philly.....same as Belichik. Browns coach first then came back under Parcells and then became coach. Difference is those two had a ton of experience as HC.....Maybe why Kubiak, Norv, etc. are brought in and leave. Just good enough to win titles and a playoff game or two....needs to step it up. How is it "kind of close"? What is "kind of close"? Zimmer here can't even get past the first round! It is tough to compare him to Reid who had a ton of Philly experience and Belichick who had HC experience at Cleveland....but he needs to step it up. Big offseason for him and Spielman...

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 2:07:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bohumm quote: ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott quote: ORIGINAL: bohumm The biggest problem with this team seems to be at the top (Wilfs>Spielman>Zimmer). The short term solution would seem to be whatever changes the top. I'd like to see the Wilfs sell, since they don't seem up to the task of delivering a Super Bowl. Since that probably won't happen soon, whatever gets Spielman and Zimmer axed comes next. I say give Zimmer what he wants and then shit-can both when that doesn't work. Run-first and control-but-don't-attack defense doesn't work in the NFL today, IMO. We've tried it, and it delivers 7-10 wins per year with outliers, but doesn't get close to the summit. I am seriously curious what more the owners can do? The team is not being led by someone cheap like the previous owner and the current owners of the Twins. They've spent to improve facilities, upgrade to the best technology etc. Is it just that they don't have a quick trigger on firing coaches that you don't like? I guess I can understand that. I am ready to move on from RS and Zim. But they have success and then they they don't. Sometimes when you get ownership that meddles too much it is a detriment. Hire people capable of winning the championship, if that is truly the point of the exercise. Extending them as well as Kirk is the problem I have, and in some ways I have less of a problem with Kirk's extension than theirs. I agree that at least they spend and they don't seem overly meddlesome, but sticking with this regime---and doubling down going into the season---is troubling at best. I like Zim and Spielman as people (as far as I can tell), but they shouldn't be the ones doing this rebuild---especially since they tried and failed dramatically with the soft rebuild this year. We had better head coaches on our staff (priefer, stefanski, Tomlin, etc.)....that is what sucks. I think he is a good coach....just not a great coach.

ronhextall -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 2:13:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall Has any head coach been with a team as long as Zimmer without winning a Super Bowl and did eventually? Count me in the camp of “message gets old after a while and just time to move on”. Andy Reid. But he drafted speed and stud QB. I think Zimmer has to win Super Bowl next year to tie Andy Reid. My point is, for Zimmer to win a Super Bowl with Vikings now would be a huge huge statistical anomaly based on history. I sure as hell am not ever going to confuse Zimmer and Reid in terms of coaching styles.

TJSweens -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 2:16:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thebigo quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott quote: ORIGINAL: bohumm The biggest problem with this team seems to be at the top (Wilfs>Spielman>Zimmer). The short term solution would seem to be whatever changes the top. I'd like to see the Wilfs sell, since they don't seem up to the task of delivering a Super Bowl. Since that probably won't happen soon, whatever gets Spielman and Zimmer axed comes next. I say give Zimmer what he wants and then shit-can both when that doesn't work. Run-first and control-but-don't-attack defense doesn't work in the NFL today, IMO. We've tried it, and it delivers 7-10 wins per year with outliers, but doesn't get close to the summit. I am seriously curious what more the owners can do? The team is not being led by someone cheap like the previous owner and the current owners of the Twins. They've spent to improve facilities, upgrade to the best technology etc. Is it just that they don't have a quick trigger on firing coaches that you don't like? I guess I can understand that. I am ready to move on from RS and Zim. But they have success and then they they don't. Sometimes when you get ownership that meddles too much it is a detriment. Quick trigger? Where Spielman and Zimmer are concerned, you can't even see quick trigger in the rear view mirror anymore. I would have settled for not giving them yet another 3 year extension. Very few organizations would tolerate this level of mediocrity for as many years as a the Wilf's have. Can you tell us one organization who dumped a HC with 3 division championships in 7 seasons and an overall .576 winning record? Now put it in the context of this team being billed as having the talent to win every year, yet missing the playoffs 4 out of 8 years. If the talent underachieves, it's time to look at the coach.

David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 2:24:10 PM)
For what it's worth (nothing) my memory says Cowher's Steelers got the full Green Bay treatment in their super bowl that they won over the Seahawks.

Trekgeekscott -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 2:42:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David F. For what it's worth (nothing) my memory says Cowher's Steelers got the full Green Bay treatment in their super bowl that they won over the Seahawks. They sure did.

thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 3:40:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: thebigo quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott quote: ORIGINAL: bohumm The biggest problem with this team seems to be at the top (Wilfs>Spielman>Zimmer). The short term solution would seem to be whatever changes the top. I'd like to see the Wilfs sell, since they don't seem up to the task of delivering a Super Bowl. Since that probably won't happen soon, whatever gets Spielman and Zimmer axed comes next. I say give Zimmer what he wants and then shit-can both when that doesn't work. Run-first and control-but-don't-attack defense doesn't work in the NFL today, IMO. We've tried it, and it delivers 7-10 wins per year with outliers, but doesn't get close to the summit. I am seriously curious what more the owners can do? The team is not being led by someone cheap like the previous owner and the current owners of the Twins. They've spent to improve facilities, upgrade to the best technology etc. Is it just that they don't have a quick trigger on firing coaches that you don't like? I guess I can understand that. I am ready to move on from RS and Zim. But they have success and then they they don't. Sometimes when you get ownership that meddles too much it is a detriment. Quick trigger? Where Spielman and Zimmer are concerned, you can't even see quick trigger in the rear view mirror anymore. I would have settled for not giving them yet another 3 year extension. Very few organizations would tolerate this level of mediocrity for as many years as a the Wilf's have. Can you tell us one organization who dumped a HC with 3 division championships in 7 seasons and an overall .576 winning record? Now put it in the context of this team being billed as having the talent to win every year, yet missing the playoffs 4 out of 8 years. If the talent underachieves, it's time to look at the coach. What talent is that?

bohumm -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 4:17:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thebigo quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: thebigo quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott quote: ORIGINAL: bohumm The biggest problem with this team seems to be at the top (Wilfs>Spielman>Zimmer). The short term solution would seem to be whatever changes the top. I'd like to see the Wilfs sell, since they don't seem up to the task of delivering a Super Bowl. Since that probably won't happen soon, whatever gets Spielman and Zimmer axed comes next. I say give Zimmer what he wants and then shit-can both when that doesn't work. Run-first and control-but-don't-attack defense doesn't work in the NFL today, IMO. We've tried it, and it delivers 7-10 wins per year with outliers, but doesn't get close to the summit. I am seriously curious what more the owners can do? The team is not being led by someone cheap like the previous owner and the current owners of the Twins. They've spent to improve facilities, upgrade to the best technology etc. Is it just that they don't have a quick trigger on firing coaches that you don't like? I guess I can understand that. I am ready to move on from RS and Zim. But they have success and then they they don't. Sometimes when you get ownership that meddles too much it is a detriment. Quick trigger? Where Spielman and Zimmer are concerned, you can't even see quick trigger in the rear view mirror anymore. I would have settled for not giving them yet another 3 year extension. Very few organizations would tolerate this level of mediocrity for as many years as a the Wilf's have. Can you tell us one organization who dumped a HC with 3 division championships in 7 seasons and an overall .576 winning record? Now put it in the context of this team being billed as having the talent to win every year, yet missing the playoffs 4 out of 8 years. If the talent underachieves, it's time to look at the coach. What talent is that? The talent this leadership amassed; if it's inadequate, that's on them. Zimmer gets to sign off on defensive players, clearly. He also has input on offensive players and how they play offense. If we make the play-offs one year and miss the next over and over, what happens in those off years? Injuries, sometimes, but also underachievement and discord. Remember the DB rebellion in GB? Diggs wanting out because of the offensive style, and then lighting the league on fire his first year out? The best team he's had, in 2017, sucked in the playoffs. This regime has had its chance, and the current group is at or approaching the nadir. How long do you keep running it back with "if onlys?"

bohumm -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 4:23:41 PM)
As an addendum, how does Mr Cornerback Coach lose his whole CB room at once? How is that, at least in large part, on him?

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 4:32:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bohumm As an addendum, how does Mr Cornerback Coach lose his whole CB room at once? How is that, at least in large part, on him? Prob part of the reason he got another year.....Salary cap issue. (Rhodes, Waynes, Alexander)....but I would still trade Dantzler, Gladney, and whomever is the third going into next year---I think we will be better.

thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 4:47:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bohumm quote: ORIGINAL: thebigo quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: thebigo quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott quote: ORIGINAL: bohumm The biggest problem with this team seems to be at the top (Wilfs>Spielman>Zimmer). The short term solution would seem to be whatever changes the top. I'd like to see the Wilfs sell, since they don't seem up to the task of delivering a Super Bowl. Since that probably won't happen soon, whatever gets Spielman and Zimmer axed comes next. I say give Zimmer what he wants and then shit-can both when that doesn't work. Run-first and control-but-don't-attack defense doesn't work in the NFL today, IMO. We've tried it, and it delivers 7-10 wins per year with outliers, but doesn't get close to the summit. I am seriously curious what more the owners can do? The team is not being led by someone cheap like the previous owner and the current owners of the Twins. They've spent to improve facilities, upgrade to the best technology etc. Is it just that they don't have a quick trigger on firing coaches that you don't like? I guess I can understand that. I am ready to move on from RS and Zim. But they have success and then they they don't. Sometimes when you get ownership that meddles too much it is a detriment. Quick trigger? Where Spielman and Zimmer are concerned, you can't even see quick trigger in the rear view mirror anymore. I would have settled for not giving them yet another 3 year extension. Very few organizations would tolerate this level of mediocrity for as many years as a the Wilf's have. Can you tell us one organization who dumped a HC with 3 division championships in 7 seasons and an overall .576 winning record? Now put it in the context of this team being billed as having the talent to win every year, yet missing the playoffs 4 out of 8 years. If the talent underachieves, it's time to look at the coach. What talent is that? The talent this leadership amassed; if it's inadequate, that's on them. Zimmer gets to sign off on defensive players, clearly. He also has input on offensive players and how they play offense. If we make the play-offs one year and miss the next over and over, what happens in those off years? Injuries, sometimes, but also underachievement and discord. Remember the DB rebellion in GB? Diggs wanting out because of the offensive style, and then lighting the league on fire his first year out? The best team he's had, in 2017, sucked in the playoffs. This regime has had its chance, and the current group is at or approaching the nadir. How long do you keep running it back with "if onlys?" Considering that we typically draft 15-25 it would follow that we actually have less talent than most other teams. Contrary to popular belief, there are other teams in the NFL attempting to "amass" talent. I also remember with our 1-5 start this year that the team had quit on Zimmer. I'm sure we are back in the "the team has quit on Zimmer" part of the cycle.

Bill Jandro -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 5:12:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bohumm As an addendum, how does Mr Cornerback Coach lose his whole CB room at once? How is that, at least in large part, on him? Flat out terrible planning. Spielman needs to be thrown in the mixer here too. That alone could have cost a team several victories even if we had a pass rush. I agree Bohumm. This regime had their chance and they blew it.

bohumm -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 5:12:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: bohumm As an addendum, how does Mr Cornerback Coach lose his whole CB room at once? How is that, at least in large part, on him? Prob part of the reason he got another year.....Salary cap issue. (Rhodes, Waynes, Alexander)....but I would still trade Dantzler, Gladney, and whomever is the third going into next year---I think we will be better. He made choices that limited the salary cap (Barr) and had no one developed behind them, including the first rounder (Hughes) he insisted on even though we had a full slate of starters at the time.

bohumm -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 5:23:06 PM)
As far as I know, that CB rebellion at GB is the only time the team has quit on him, so I don't mean to overstate that. Alexander was the most affordable of those who left, and he was reportedly alienated to the point where he wasn't coming back for even the same money. These are just added incidents of failure. Zimmer and Spielman are pretty good, so if that's all we ever aspire to they're fine. I like them, but I've seen nothing that tells me they can get us to, much less win, a Super Bowl. We are currently significantly further away than we've been since 2015; even in the disastrous 2016 season we started 5-0. What indication has there been that these guys can give us any more than they already have? And yet they were not just retained, but extended, after getting smoked in the playoffs last year. Keeping them and hoping for better seems to be folly. I hope I'm wrong and will be pulling for a different result, but I'm not optimistic at this point.

Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 6:20:43 PM)
Our young corners would have looked even better if there had been some semblance of a pass rush. I'm going to chalk Hughes play to that he is now damaged goods. He seemed to be showing some promise his rookie season before he got hurt and I don't think he ever got right again. I could be wrong. Regardless, I do like what I see from this years crop.

Bruce Johnson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 6:41:56 PM)
I didn't know any defender had a good game vs the Saints for the Vikings. **** Armon Watts vs the Saints was one of the best single game performances any defensive player had this year.... he was on his game, processing plays fast, holding the POA, stacking and shedding, overall a very very good performance with little to no NFL talent surrounding him (Spencer Thompson on Twitter)

Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 7:02:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson I didn't know any defender had a good game vs the Saints for the Vikings. **** Armon Watts vs the Saints was one of the best single game performances any defensive player had this year.... he was on his game, processing plays fast, holding the POA, stacking and shedding, overall a very very good performance with little to no NFL talent surrounding him (Spencer Thompson on Twitter) I really liked Watt's play in limited snaps last year. He didn't play as much and didn't produce earlier this year, but I posted about him down the stretch. Anyone have a link for the All22/coaches tape? I read that Watts was mostly playing NT this year after playing 3T last year, switching with Jaleel Johnson. That's a Huge ask to consistently take on double teams. If accurate, Watts playing NT, I would hope he got some PT at 3T. He could be a very good rotational 3T (early downs) and moving to NT (passing downs). It also shows how bad Jaleel was, to switch to 3T and do nothing. Makes you wonder why coaches didn't move him back to NT where he was at least moderately productive (at times).

Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/11/2021 7:07:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson Our young corners would have looked even better if there had been some semblance of a pass rush. I'm going to chalk Hughes play to that he is now damaged goods. He seemed to be showing some promise his rookie season before he got hurt and I don't think he ever got right again. I could be wrong. Regardless, I do like what I see from this years crop. Hughes had the pick 6 vs the 49ers but, without looking it up, was well below average every time he was in since then. Injuries absolutely might have derailed his trajectory. What a wasted/luxury pick with our IOL needs at the time. But this was all on Spielman, after the draft it was reported Zimmer wanted IOL but Spielman picked Hughes because of the "value".

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