quote:

ORIGINAL: jbusse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

[sm=govikes.gif]


When was the last time a defense FA signing under Zimmer didn't work out? We don't do many of them but they seem to work out. So I'm with you Big Sky on defense.

Offense - all about oline. I think Darrisaw and Wyatt have a chance to really elevate the talent on the oline.

If we stay healthy - I'm also looking forward to the season.

Well ... going back 3 years ...

DE Yannick Ngakoue – Debacle
DT Michael Pierce – Opt Out
DT Shamar Stephen – No Impact
LB Anthony Barr – Injury (Doesn't play to expectations or contract)
DT Sheldon Richardson – Short Timer (a little better than Stephen)

In other words, there's a variety of reasons why the D FAs may not pan out.

I would agree with Trekgeekscott, there's reason for optimism but guarded.

Would we categorize that as a sky is blue comment?

Yannick was a trade.
Including Pierce as a FA signing that didn't work out? Um ok.
Shamar Stephen was asked to play NT a lot more with Joseph injured and the optout last year. He also played pretty close to the same as the first time, Zimmer/Patterson want DT to occupy blockers and didn't have a Tom Johnson to rotate with I wouldn't call it a FA that didn't work out, but whatever.
Barr was a re-sign imo. If you want to call him a FA signing more power to you.
Sheldon signed a 3 yr/36M dollar contract and without looking up stats, would say he was pretty successful when here. We also got a comp 3rd rounder if I remember right.

By my definition of a successful FA signing, none you listed were unsuccessful (or they weren't FA signings).

George Iloka [8D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I am excited about the 17 game schedule, but the Vikes schedule seems tough right now.

There are a lot of interesting scenarios with trades and movements of players, it will be interesting to see how many teams turn out. u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

[sm=govikes.gif]


When was the last time a defense FA signing under Zimmer didn't work out? We don't do many of them but they seem to work out. So I'm with you Big Sky on defense.

Offense - all about oline. I think Darrisaw and Wyatt have a chance to really elevate the talent on the oline.

If we stay healthy - I'm also looking forward to the season.

Well ... going back 3 years ...

DE Yannick Ngakoue – Debacle
DT Michael Pierce – Opt Out
DT Shamar Stephen – No Impact
LB Anthony Barr – Injury (Doesn't play to expectations or contract)
DT Sheldon Richardson – Short Timer (a little better than Stephen)

In other words, there's a variety of reasons why the D FAs may not pan out.

I would agree with Trekgeekscott, there's reason for optimism but guarded.

Would we categorize that as a sky is blue comment?

Yannick was a trade.
Including Pierce as a FA signing that didn't work out? Um ok.
Shamar Stephen was asked to play NT a lot more with Joseph injured and the optout last year. He also played pretty close to the same as the first time, Zimmer/Patterson want DT to occupy blockers and didn't have a Tom Johnson to rotate with I wouldn't call it a FA that didn't work out, but whatever.
Barr was a re-sign imo. If you want to call him a FA signing more power to you.
Sheldon signed a 3 yr/36M dollar contract and without looking up stats, would say he was pretty successful when here. We also got a comp 3rd rounder if I remember right.

By my definition of a successful FA signing, none you listed were unsuccessful (or they weren't FA signings).

EDIT to not be mean to a poster.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

[sm=govikes.gif]


When was the last time a defense FA signing under Zimmer didn't work out? We don't do many of them but they seem to work out. So I'm with you Big Sky on defense.

Offense - all about oline. I think Darrisaw and Wyatt have a chance to really elevate the talent on the oline.

If we stay healthy - I'm also looking forward to the season.

Well ... going back 3 years ...

DE Yannick Ngakoue – Debacle
DT Michael Pierce – Opt Out
DT Shamar Stephen – No Impact
LB Anthony Barr – Injury (Doesn't play to expectations or contract)
DT Sheldon Richardson – Short Timer (a little better than Stephen)

In other words, there's a variety of reasons why the D FAs may not pan out.

I would agree with Trekgeekscott, there's reason for optimism but guarded.

Would we categorize that as a sky is blue comment?

Yannick was a trade.
Including Pierce as a FA signing that didn't work out? Um ok.
Shamar Stephen was asked to play NT a lot more with Joseph injured and the optout last year. He also played pretty close to the same as the first time, Zimmer/Patterson want DT to occupy blockers and didn't have a Tom Johnson to rotate with I wouldn't call it a FA that didn't work out, but whatever.
Barr was a re-sign imo. If you want to call him a FA signing more power to you.
Sheldon signed a 3 yr/36M dollar contract and without looking up stats, would say he was pretty successful when here. We also got a comp 3rd rounder if I remember right.

By my definition of a successful FA signing, none you listed were unsuccessful (or they weren't FA signings).

EDIT to not be mean to a poster.

True Yannick was a failed trade, not a fa signing. I should not have included him ... except it speaks exactly to your giddy blanket statement about identifying perfectly suitable talent on the market under Zimmer. (yes, I take liberties, I freely admit it).

You make all the excuses you want for the rest (please don't defend avg Stephen, you are so much better than that) (Barr was on the open market after shatting on our offer, made an agreement with the Jets then we negotiated him away ... so whats the difference=fa signing all the way).

I’m optimistic the defense will be greatly improved, in spite of SOME OF THE IFFY personnel moves under Zimmer. Hunter, Joseph, Griffith, Kendricks, Barr (pre-resign, er, signing), Rhodes, Alexander, Waynes, Smith and UDFA Harris. How many impactful core Zimmer def starters were not draft choices? Joseph in 2014. Oh and he was shot before the 2014 season started so add gunplay to the pile of FA obstacles-to-
success-under-Zimmer suffocating your sky is blue statement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

[sm=govikes.gif]


When was the last time a defense FA signing under Zimmer didn't work out? We don't do many of them but they seem to work out. So I'm with you Big Sky on defense.

Offense - all about oline. I think Darrisaw and Wyatt have a chance to really elevate the talent on the oline.

If we stay healthy - I'm also looking forward to the season.

Well ... going back 3 years ...

DE Yannick Ngakoue – Debacle
DT Michael Pierce – Opt Out
DT Shamar Stephen – No Impact
LB Anthony Barr – Injury (Doesn't play to expectations or contract)
DT Sheldon Richardson – Short Timer (a little better than Stephen)

In other words, there's a variety of reasons why the D FAs may not pan out.

I would agree with Trekgeekscott, there's reason for optimism but guarded.

Would we categorize that as a sky is blue comment?

Yannick was a trade.
Including Pierce as a FA signing that didn't work out? Um ok.
Shamar Stephen was asked to play NT a lot more with Joseph injured and the optout last year. He also played pretty close to the same as the first time, Zimmer/Patterson want DT to occupy blockers and didn't have a Tom Johnson to rotate with I wouldn't call it a FA that didn't work out, but whatever.
Barr was a re-sign imo. If you want to call him a FA signing more power to you.
Sheldon signed a 3 yr/36M dollar contract and without looking up stats, would say he was pretty successful when here. We also got a comp 3rd rounder if I remember right.

By my definition of a successful FA signing, none you listed were unsuccessful (or they weren't FA signings).

EDIT to not be mean to a poster.

True Yannick was a failed trade, not a fa signing. I should not have included him ... except it speaks exactly to your giddy blanket statement about identifying perfectly suitable talent on the market under Zimmer. (yes, I take liberties, I freely admit it).

You make all the excuses you want for the rest (please don't defend avg Stephen, you are so much better than that) (Barr was on the open market after shatting on our offer, made an agreement with the Jets then we negotiated him away ... so whats the difference=fa signing all the way).

I’m optimistic the defense will be greatly improved, in spite of SOME OF THE IFFY personnel moves under Zimmer. Hunter, Joseph, Griffith, Kendricks, Barr (pre-resign, er, signing), Rhodes, Alexander, Waynes, Smith and UDFA Harris. How many impactful core Zimmer def starters were not draft choices? Joseph in 2014. Oh and he was shot before the 2014 season started so add gunplay to the pile of FA obstacles-to-
success-under-Zimmer suffocating your sky is blue statement.

[&:]

From your original list, down to Barr and Stephens. Stephens was not unsuccessful, he performed in line with his lower vet salary. Barr, you call him a FA. I view it as signing an extension.

Not your best work Tom.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Don't forget Captain Munnerlyn.

Most of the D has been comprised of draftees with gaps filled by vet FAs. To say the vet mins worked out is a stretch.

Joseph - played well on his initial contract here. WORKED OUT.
Richardson - barely played to his $8M contract. Didn't appear to prove much beyond a few flashes in a prove it year, although all it takes is one team to see greatness. DIDN'T WORK OUT.
Stephen - cheap starter in over his head and everyone knew it. WORKED OUT (not his fault he started; played to his low ceiling expectations).
Barr - he was a UFA and he hasn't moved the needle since. HASN'T WORKED OUT.
Pierce - TBD.
Munnerlyn - about what was expected. WORKED OUT.
Newman - cheap 40 year old stopgap whose guile helped but, predictably, got burned deep. SORTA WORKED OUT (but that's not saying much).

Mixed bag.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Don't forget Captain Munnerlyn.

Most of the D has been comprised of draftees with gaps filled by vet FAs. To say the vet mins worked out is a stretch.

Joseph - played well on his initial contract here. WORKED OUT.
Richardson - barely played to his $8M contract. Didn't appear to prove much beyond a few flashes in a prove it year, although all it takes is one team to see greatness. DIDN'T WORK OUT.
Stephen - cheap starter in over his head and everyone knew it. WORKED OUT (not his fault he started; played to his low ceiling expectations).
Barr - he was a UFA and he hasn't moved the needle since. HASN'T WORKED OUT.
Pierce - TBD.
Munnerlyn - about what was expected. WORKED OUT.
Newman - cheap 40 year old stopgap whose guile helped but, predictably, got burned deep. SORTA WORKED OUT (but that's not saying much).

Mixed bag.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Don't forget Captain Munnerlyn.

Most of the D has been comprised of draftees with gaps filled by vet FAs. To say the vet mins worked out is a stretch.

Joseph - played well on his initial contract here. WORKED OUT.
Richardson - barely played to his $8M contract. Didn't appear to prove much beyond a few flashes in a prove it year, although all it takes is one team to see greatness. DIDN'T WORK OUT.
Stephen - cheap starter in over his head and everyone knew it. WORKED OUT (not his fault he started; played to his low ceiling expectations).
Barr - he was a UFA and he hasn't moved the needle since. HASN'T WORKED OUT.
Pierce - TBD.
Munnerlyn - about what was expected. WORKED OUT.
Newman - cheap 40 year old stopgap whose guile helped but, predictably, got burned deep. SORTA WORKED OUT (but that's not saying much).

Mixed bag.

I'd put Newman in the WORKED OUT catagory. He played pretty well for his age and helped teach Zim's system to the other DB's. I think he even played a few games at S when we had some injuries there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

The gist of Pager’s initial over-the-top frothy spilling over of FA optimism was: “Based on EVERY slam-dunk defensive FA signing under Zimmer, I expect this season to be more joyful than the coming Rapture.” (His below-avg assessment, not mine)

You can argue the intention / expectation / value of past FA signings all you want ... bottomline is, Joseph was the only above avg fa addition under Zimmer to come through FA, and if you remember right, it took him 1-2 seasons to start playing at a high level. I had forgotten about Captain M ... he started slow as well.

There should be optimism, there’s a real good chance the defense will be greatly improved. I don’t think Zimmer or Spielman’s FA track record ensures that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

The gist of Pager’s initial over-the-top frothy spilling over of FA optimism was: “Based on EVERY slam-dunk defensive FA signing under Zimmer, I expect this season to be more joyful than the coming Rapture.” (His below-avg assessment, not mine)

You can argue the intention / expectation / value of past FA signings all you want ... bottomline is, Joseph was the only above avg fa addition under Zimmer to come through FA, and if you remember right, it took him 1-2 seasons to start playing at a high level. I had forgotten about Captain M ... he started slow as well.

There should be optimism, there’s a real good chance the defense will be greatly improved. I don’t think Zimmer or Spielman’s FA track record ensures that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Don't forget Captain Munnerlyn.

Most of the D has been comprised of draftees with gaps filled by vet FAs. To say the vet mins worked out is a stretch.

Joseph - played well on his initial contract here. WORKED OUT.
Richardson - barely played to his $8M contract. Didn't appear to prove much beyond a few flashes in a prove it year, although all it takes is one team to see greatness. DIDN'T WORK OUT.
Stephen - cheap starter in over his head and everyone knew it. WORKED OUT (not his fault he started; played to his low ceiling expectations).
Barr - he was a UFA and he hasn't moved the needle since. HASN'T WORKED OUT.
Pierce - TBD.
Munnerlyn - about what was expected. WORKED OUT.
Newman - cheap 40 year old stopgap whose guile helped but, predictably, got burned deep. SORTA WORKED OUT (but that's not saying much).

Mixed bag.

What big time def FA have they signed? Barr is a Re-Sign. They have drafted well on Defense. The defense FA(s) signed this year are all on 1 to 2 year contracts also....they haven't spent big money on outside FA except for Pierce recently.

Richardson was also a 1 year guy also.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Don't forget Captain Munnerlyn.

Most of the D has been comprised of draftees with gaps filled by vet FAs. To say the vet mins worked out is a stretch.

Joseph - played well on his initial contract here. WORKED OUT.
Richardson - barely played to his $8M contract. Didn't appear to prove much beyond a few flashes in a prove it year, although all it takes is one team to see greatness. DIDN'T WORK OUT.
Stephen - cheap starter in over his head and everyone knew it. WORKED OUT (not his fault he started; played to his low ceiling expectations).
Barr - he was a UFA and he hasn't moved the needle since. HASN'T WORKED OUT.
Pierce - TBD.
Munnerlyn - about what was expected. WORKED OUT.
Newman - cheap 40 year old stopgap whose guile helped but, predictably, got burned deep. SORTA WORKED OUT (but that's not saying much).

Mixed bag.

I'd put Newman in the WORKED OUT catagory. He played pretty well for his age and helped teach Zim's system to the other DB's. I think he even played a few games at S when we had some injuries there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Don't forget Captain Munnerlyn.

Most of the D has been comprised of draftees with gaps filled by vet FAs. To say the vet mins worked out is a stretch.

Joseph - played well on his initial contract here. WORKED OUT.
Richardson - barely played to his $8M contract. Didn't appear to prove much beyond a few flashes in a prove it year, although all it takes is one team to see greatness. DIDN'T WORK OUT.
Stephen - cheap starter in over his head and everyone knew it. WORKED OUT (not his fault he started; played to his low ceiling expectations).
Barr - he was a UFA and he hasn't moved the needle since. HASN'T WORKED OUT.
Pierce - TBD.
Munnerlyn - about what was expected. WORKED OUT.
Newman - cheap 40 year old stopgap whose guile helped but, predictably, got burned deep. SORTA WORKED OUT (but that's not saying much).

Mixed bag.

What big time def FA have they signed? Barr is a Re-Sign. They have drafted well on Defense. The defense FA(s) signed this year are all on 1 to 2 year contracts also....they haven't spent big money on outside FA except for Pierce recently.

Richardson was also a 1 year guy also.

That isn't the debate point. Try to keep up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Don't forget Captain Munnerlyn.

Most of the D has been comprised of draftees with gaps filled by vet FAs. To say the vet mins worked out is a stretch.

Joseph - played well on his initial contract here. WORKED OUT.
Richardson - barely played to his $8M contract. Didn't appear to prove much beyond a few flashes in a prove it year, although all it takes is one team to see greatness. DIDN'T WORK OUT.
Stephen - cheap starter in over his head and everyone knew it. WORKED OUT (not his fault he started; played to his low ceiling expectations).
Barr - he was a UFA and he hasn't moved the needle since. HASN'T WORKED OUT.
Pierce - TBD.
Munnerlyn - about what was expected. WORKED OUT.
Newman - cheap 40 year old stopgap whose guile helped but, predictably, got burned deep. SORTA WORKED OUT (but that's not saying much).

Mixed bag.

I'd put Newman in the WORKED OUT catagory. He played pretty well for his age and helped teach Zim's system to the other DB's. I think he even played a few games at S when we had some injuries there.

Exactly. He played great in 2016 and solid in 2017. For a total of $5M.

The only one I would say was maybe a push was Richardson. But I still wouldn't call him DIDNT WORK OUT.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Don't forget Captain Munnerlyn.

Most of the D has been comprised of draftees with gaps filled by vet FAs. To say the vet mins worked out is a stretch.

Joseph - played well on his initial contract here. WORKED OUT.
Richardson - barely played to his $8M contract. Didn't appear to prove much beyond a few flashes in a prove it year, although all it takes is one team to see greatness. DIDN'T WORK OUT.
Stephen - cheap starter in over his head and everyone knew it. WORKED OUT (not his fault he started; played to his low ceiling expectations).
Barr - he was a UFA and he hasn't moved the needle since. HASN'T WORKED OUT.
Pierce - TBD.
Munnerlyn - about what was expected. WORKED OUT.
Newman - cheap 40 year old stopgap whose guile helped but, predictably, got burned deep. SORTA WORKED OUT (but that's not saying much).

Mixed bag.

What big time def FA have they signed? Barr is a Re-Sign. They have drafted well on Defense. The defense FA(s) signed this year are all on 1 to 2 year contracts also....they haven't spent big money on outside FA except for Pierce recently.

Richardson was also a 1 year guy also.

That isn't the debate point. Try to keep up.

I am keeping up....Zimmer and Spielman haven't had any big time FA signings (they have used more draft picks on that side)....so how could there be Def FA busts? Barr was our draft pick....Rhodes was our draft pick.

Pierce and Tomlinson have been two of the bigger FA signings....and the latter is only a 2 year contract.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Don't forget Captain Munnerlyn.

Most of the D has been comprised of draftees with gaps filled by vet FAs. To say the vet mins worked out is a stretch.

Joseph - played well on his initial contract here. WORKED OUT.
Richardson - barely played to his $8M contract. Didn't appear to prove much beyond a few flashes in a prove it year, although all it takes is one team to see greatness. DIDN'T WORK OUT.
Stephen - cheap starter in over his head and everyone knew it. WORKED OUT (not his fault he started; played to his low ceiling expectations).
Barr - he was a UFA and he hasn't moved the needle since. HASN'T WORKED OUT.
Pierce - TBD.
Munnerlyn - about what was expected. WORKED OUT.
Newman - cheap 40 year old stopgap whose guile helped but, predictably, got burned deep. SORTA WORKED OUT (but that's not saying much).

Mixed bag.

What big time def FA have they signed? Barr is a Re-Sign. They have drafted well on Defense. The defense FA(s) signed this year are all on 1 to 2 year contracts also....they haven't spent big money on outside FA except for Pierce recently.

Richardson was also a 1 year guy also.

That isn't the debate point. Try to keep up.

I am keeping up....Zimmer and Spielman haven't had any big time FA signings (they have used more draft picks on that side)....so how could there be Def FA busts? Barr was our draft pick....Rhodes was our draft pick.

Pierce and Tomlinson have been two of the bigger FA signings....and the latter is only a 2 year contract.

We are rating the FAs we signed.

If you want to rate big time FAs, go argue with yourself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

The gist of Pager’s initial over-the-top frothy spilling over of FA optimism was: “Based on EVERY slam-dunk defensive FA signing under Zimmer, I expect this season to be more joyful than the coming Rapture.” (His below-avg assessment, not mine)

You can argue the intention / expectation / value of past FA signings all you want ... bottomline is, Joseph was the only above avg fa addition under Zimmer to come through FA, and if you remember right, it took him 1-2 seasons to start playing at a high level. I had forgotten about Captain M ... he started slow as well.

There should be optimism, there’s a real good chance the defense will be greatly improved. I don’t think Zimmer or Spielman’s FA track record ensures that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

The gist of Pager’s initial over-the-top frothy spilling over of FA optimism was: “Based on EVERY slam-dunk defensive FA signing under Zimmer, I expect this season to be more joyful than the coming Rapture.” (His below-avg assessment, not mine)

You can argue the intention / expectation / value of past FA signings all you want ... bottomline is, Joseph was the only above avg fa addition under Zimmer to come through FA, and if you remember right, it took him 1-2 seasons to start playing at a high level. I had forgotten about Captain M ... he started slow as well.

There should be optimism, there’s a real good chance the defense will be greatly improved. I don’t think Zimmer or Spielman’s FA track record ensures that.

Agree, Joseph was the best of them.

At first it was whether they worked out. Then he introduced "value", labeled UFA signings as extensions, etc.

Let's be happy for Pager that all the FAs met all his subjective criteria.