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Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 12:07:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: jbusse quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: Murph quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen One indisputable stat is Kurt Cousins is a perennial top 10 fumbling QB: https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/fumbles?season_id=18 His lack of pocket presence is what keeps him from being a top 10 QB Way too many unforced sacks and fumbles. Drive killers. Yep. Such drive killers that we finished 4th in the NFL in offense. Just imagine if the OL wasn't one of the worst in the league. Fourth in Yards. Big deal. 5th in rushing yards, 14th in receiving yards. Combined for 4th in total yds. You can have a boatload of yards but if that doesn't convert into scoring ... Percentage of Drives ending in a score: 39.8 (ranked 18) ... Points scored by team: 430 (ranked 11th ) There are so many variables that are more important than just plain ol' yards. As far as KC taking care of the football ... 2020 INTs: 13 – Tied for 3rd (2 more INTs and KC would have tied the league leader) 2020 Fumbles: 9 – Tied for 3rd (2 more fumbles and KC would have tied the league leader) As far as blaming everything on the OL ... its a feeble excuse. According to PFF, the worst performing OLs last year were the Chargers (rookie Hebert 10INTs/4Fs in 15 Games ), Giants (Daniel Jones 10INTs/3Fs in 14 games [back-up Colt Mcoy had 1 INT]), Bengals (rookie Burrow had 5INTs in 10 games (backup Allen 4 INTS in 5 games) ... Not only does KC NOT take care of the ball, he's a consistent TO machine over the course of his career. You've blown his point of KC taking "very good care of the ball" clear out of the water. Game-set-match. Checkmate if you will. Not to mention pointing out we were 14th in receiving yards to checkmate the desperate "we were 4th in yards" proclamation. But you shouldn't ignore that rushing yards and receiving yards are inversely related on average. The rushing game wouldn't be as productive if the passing game didn't pose a threat and vice versa. Difficult to disentangle, I would say. True, but in 2020 we were 8th in the league in rushing attempts and only 27th in passing attempts. Iin 2019 we were 4th in rushing attempts and 30th in passing attempts. This diminishes any inverse relationship or average spread. Because of that imbalance, KC benefits significantly with play action. what defenses are expecting as far as tendencies, etc. And perhaps Cook does better than it appears because clearly the league knows we are going to run a lot. All in all just generalized conclusions and there is no direct correlation. Sorry imo that is a flawed argument. We have tendencies that make it a disadvantage and wipe out (plus more) any advantage on PA. We run more than any other team on 2nd and long. We run more than any other team on second and short. We run more than any team on third and short. Our playcalling was especially vanilla in 2020 and it made easier to defend. Throw in that IOL and it was a disaster. I was so wrong about Kubiak taking over for Stef.

Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 12:18:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David F. Cousins is in the 11-15 range in terms of QBs. QBs I 100% put ahead of him: Rodgers Brady Watson Mahomes Dak Josh Allen Russel Wilson QBs I 80% sure put ahead of him: Tannehill Lamar Jackson Justin Herbert Rapeyburger QBs I 60% sure put ahead of him: Derek Carr Matt Ryan Kyler Murray Drew Brees would have been in the 100% category but not in 2020. I don't agree with Dak. What has he won? Other than last year when he got hurt, one of the best olines and running games if I remember right. Tannihill/Carr/Ryan/Dak = Cousins imo. Same range. Lamar Jackson is still too one dimensional. How many playoff games has he won? Herbert has played 1 year. Not quite ready to say he's better but very well could be. I haven't watched Murry enough to say whether he is or not. Roethlisberger at this point in his career? No. 5 years ago, definitely. He's washed up. Same with Brees last year (which you posted). Brees had a great offensive mind/coach, great skill players, and a very good oline. Brees pulled a Peyton Manning, nothing left on the throws. Is Brees hall of fame if he stayed in SD instead of pairing with Payton? I rank Cousins in the 9-11 range right now. And agree with everything Dana posted (wish he posted more). But that's just my opinion.

Pager -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 12:25:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H How does he do in the final two minutes? It's the only stat that matters. Cousins had the #30 QB Rating in the final two minutes of halves last season. You can't be that bad and have any real expectations of a deep run in the playoffs. The final two minutes is about leadership, charisma and moxy. He has very little of it. [&:] Like clockwork - posting the same 2020 stat over and over again. What's the p value on that n sample when compared to his season and career? Or even more relevant - compared to final two minutes for his career?

DavidAOlson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 7:37:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David F. Cousins is in the 11-15 range in terms of QBs. QBs I 100% put ahead of him: Rodgers Brady Watson Mahomes Dak Josh Allen Russel Wilson Rodgers is currently on strike. Brady, for a single season. Watson, if not for the massive scandal. Mahomes, duh. Dak, 80%. Jerry Jones of undervalues him for.. reasons. Plus let's see how he comes back from his injury. Allen, I'd like to see another solid season before I'd place him firmly in this group, 80%. Russel Wilson, for sure. quote: QBs I 80% sure put ahead of him: Tannehill Lamar Jackson Justin Herbert Rapeyburger Tannehill, I dunno. Flip. I'd consider Jackson for the 100% group, but maybe chicken out and leave him here with Dak and Allen. Herbert? On performance, no. On promise, maybe. He's not in the solid veteran group yet. Rapeyburger, I don't trust him this much. Seems like he's teetering on the career-ending cliff. Flip at best. quote: QBs I 60% sure put ahead of him: Derek Carr Matt Ryan Kyler Murray Drew Brees would have been in the 100% category but not in 2020. Well, since Brees retired, it's hard to rank him higher than anyone. Matt Ryan makes me shrug like Tannehill. Derek Carr, push. I'd reluctantly include him in the solid veteran group with Tannehill, Ryan, and Cousins, I guess. Kyler Murry, I'm tempted to go 80%. But that's maybe overweighting promise. So I guess 60%. Stafford? I'd consider Stafford ahead of Cousins, at least the 60% group. The guy has had a solid career despite playing for Detroit! Mayfield? He could improve markedly. So I dunno. Cousins is in a cluster that maybe tops out around #10. But 3-4 of the top QBs him have major question marks. I wouldn't be surprised if his 2021 performance were rated anywhere from #6 to #14. Depends on who gets hot, injuries, coaching, and teammates.

kgdabom -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 8:10:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Todd M Kirk Cousins 9243 weaknesses. Sounds about right, but none of them significant enough to keep him out of the top 10 QBs.

kgdabom -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 8:13:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pager quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: jbusse quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: Murph quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen One indisputable stat is Kurt Cousins is a perennial top 10 fumbling QB: https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/fumbles?season_id=18 His lack of pocket presence is what keeps him from being a top 10 QB Way too many unforced sacks and fumbles. Drive killers. Yep. Such drive killers that we finished 4th in the NFL in offense. Just imagine if the OL wasn't one of the worst in the league. Fourth in Yards. Big deal. 5th in rushing yards, 14th in receiving yards. Combined for 4th in total yds. You can have a boatload of yards but if that doesn't convert into scoring ... Percentage of Drives ending in a score: 39.8 (ranked 18) ... Points scored by team: 430 (ranked 11th ) There are so many variables that are more important than just plain ol' yards. As far as KC taking care of the football ... 2020 INTs: 13 – Tied for 3rd (2 more INTs and KC would have tied the league leader) 2020 Fumbles: 9 – Tied for 3rd (2 more fumbles and KC would have tied the league leader) As far as blaming everything on the OL ... its a feeble excuse. According to PFF, the worst performing OLs last year were the Chargers (rookie Hebert 10INTs/4Fs in 15 Games ), Giants (Daniel Jones 10INTs/3Fs in 14 games [back-up Colt Mcoy had 1 INT]), Bengals (rookie Burrow had 5INTs in 10 games (backup Allen 4 INTS in 5 games) ... Not only does KC NOT take care of the ball, he's a consistent TO machine over the course of his career. You've blown his point of KC taking "very good care of the ball" clear out of the water. Game-set-match. Checkmate if you will. Not to mention pointing out we were 14th in receiving yards to checkmate the desperate "we were 4th in yards" proclamation. But you shouldn't ignore that rushing yards and receiving yards are inversely related on average. The rushing game wouldn't be as productive if the passing game didn't pose a threat and vice versa. Difficult to disentangle, I would say. True, but in 2020 we were 8th in the league in rushing attempts and only 27th in passing attempts. Iin 2019 we were 4th in rushing attempts and 30th in passing attempts. This diminishes any inverse relationship or average spread. Because of that imbalance, KC benefits significantly with play action. what defenses are expecting as far as tendencies, etc. And perhaps Cook does better than it appears because clearly the league knows we are going to run a lot. All in all just generalized conclusions and there is no direct correlation. Sorry imo that is a flawed argument. We have tendencies that make it a disadvantage and wipe out (plus more) any advantage on PA. We run more than any other team on 2nd and long. We run more than any other team on second and short. We run more than any team on third and short. Our playcalling was especially vanilla in 2020 and it made easier to defend. Throw in that IOL and it was a disaster. I was so wrong about Kubiak taking over for Stef. So we were 27th in passing attempts, but 14th in passing yards. Tom used this as an argument against Cousins??????????????????

kgdabom -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 8:18:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DavidAOlson quote: ORIGINAL: David F. Cousins is in the 11-15 range in terms of QBs. QBs I 100% put ahead of him: Rodgers Brady Watson Mahomes Dak Josh Allen Russel Wilson Rodgers is currently on strike. Brady, for a single season. Watson, if not for the massive scandal. Mahomes, duh. Dak, 80%. Jerry Jones of undervalues him for.. reasons. Plus let's see how he comes back from his injury. Allen, I'd like to see another solid season before I'd place him firmly in this group, 80%. Russel Wilson, for sure. quote: QBs I 80% sure put ahead of him: Tannehill Lamar Jackson Justin Herbert Rapeyburger Tannehill, I dunno. Flip. I'd consider Jackson for the 100% group, but maybe chicken out and leave him here with Dak and Allen. Herbert? On performance, no. On promise, maybe. He's not in the solid veteran group yet. Rapeyburger, I don't trust him this much. Seems like he's teetering on the career-ending cliff. Flip at best. quote: QBs I 60% sure put ahead of him: Derek Carr Matt Ryan Kyler Murray Drew Brees would have been in the 100% category but not in 2020. Well, since Brees retired, it's hard to rank him higher than anyone. Matt Ryan makes me shrug like Tannehill. Derek Carr, push. I'd reluctantly include him in the solid veteran group with Tannehill, Ryan, and Cousins, I guess. Kyler Murry, I'm tempted to go 80%. But that's maybe overweighting promise. So I guess 60%. Stafford? I'd consider Stafford ahead of Cousins, at least the 60% group. The guy has had a solid career despite playing for Detroit! Mayfield? He could improve markedly. So I dunno. Cousins is in a cluster that maybe tops out around #10. But 3-4 of the top QBs him have major question marks. I wouldn't be surprised if his 2021 performance were rated anywhere from #6 to #14. Depends on who gets hot, injuries, coaching, and teammates. Cousins has NEVER MISSED A START. So many QBs placed above him that are very questionably placed above him. Easy top 10. The only question is how much higher.

Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 8:58:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pager quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: jbusse quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: Murph quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen One indisputable stat is Kurt Cousins is a perennial top 10 fumbling QB: https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/fumbles?season_id=18 His lack of pocket presence is what keeps him from being a top 10 QB Way too many unforced sacks and fumbles. Drive killers. Yep. Such drive killers that we finished 4th in the NFL in offense. Just imagine if the OL wasn't one of the worst in the league. Fourth in Yards. Big deal. 5th in rushing yards, 14th in receiving yards. Combined for 4th in total yds. You can have a boatload of yards but if that doesn't convert into scoring ... Percentage of Drives ending in a score: 39.8 (ranked 18) ... Points scored by team: 430 (ranked 11th ) There are so many variables that are more important than just plain ol' yards. As far as KC taking care of the football ... 2020 INTs: 13 – Tied for 3rd (2 more INTs and KC would have tied the league leader) 2020 Fumbles: 9 – Tied for 3rd (2 more fumbles and KC would have tied the league leader) As far as blaming everything on the OL ... its a feeble excuse. According to PFF, the worst performing OLs last year were the Chargers (rookie Hebert 10INTs/4Fs in 15 Games ), Giants (Daniel Jones 10INTs/3Fs in 14 games [back-up Colt Mcoy had 1 INT]), Bengals (rookie Burrow had 5INTs in 10 games (backup Allen 4 INTS in 5 games) ... Not only does KC NOT take care of the ball, he's a consistent TO machine over the course of his career. You've blown his point of KC taking "very good care of the ball" clear out of the water. Game-set-match. Checkmate if you will. Not to mention pointing out we were 14th in receiving yards to checkmate the desperate "we were 4th in yards" proclamation. But you shouldn't ignore that rushing yards and receiving yards are inversely related on average. The rushing game wouldn't be as productive if the passing game didn't pose a threat and vice versa. Difficult to disentangle, I would say. True, but in 2020 we were 8th in the league in rushing attempts and only 27th in passing attempts. Iin 2019 we were 4th in rushing attempts and 30th in passing attempts. This diminishes any inverse relationship or average spread. Because of that imbalance, KC benefits significantly with play action. what defenses are expecting as far as tendencies, etc. And perhaps Cook does better than it appears because clearly the league knows we are going to run a lot. All in all just generalized conclusions and there is no direct correlation. Sorry imo that is a flawed argument. We have tendencies that make it a disadvantage and wipe out (plus more) any advantage on PA. We run more than any other team on 2nd and long. We run more than any other team on second and short. We run more than any team on third and short. Our playcalling was especially vanilla in 2020 and it made easier to defend. Throw in that IOL and it was a disaster. I was so wrong about Kubiak taking over for Stef. Yes all that boils down to playcalling. Perhaps Cousins should call more audibles.

Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 9:04:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DavidAOlson quote: ORIGINAL: David F. Cousins is in the 11-15 range in terms of QBs. QBs I 100% put ahead of him: Rodgers Brady Watson Mahomes Dak Josh Allen Russel Wilson Rodgers is currently on strike. Brady, for a single season. Watson, if not for the massive scandal. Mahomes, duh. Dak, 80%. Jerry Jones of undervalues him for.. reasons. Plus let's see how he comes back from his injury. Allen, I'd like to see another solid season before I'd place him firmly in this group, 80%. Russel Wilson, for sure. quote: QBs I 80% sure put ahead of him: Tannehill Lamar Jackson Justin Herbert Rapeyburger Tannehill, I dunno. Flip. I'd consider Jackson for the 100% group, but maybe chicken out and leave him here with Dak and Allen. Herbert? On performance, no. On promise, maybe. He's not in the solid veteran group yet. Rapeyburger, I don't trust him this much. Seems like he's teetering on the career-ending cliff. Flip at best. quote: QBs I 60% sure put ahead of him: Derek Carr Matt Ryan Kyler Murray Drew Brees would have been in the 100% category but not in 2020. Well, since Brees retired, it's hard to rank him higher than anyone. Matt Ryan makes me shrug like Tannehill. Derek Carr, push. I'd reluctantly include him in the solid veteran group with Tannehill, Ryan, and Cousins, I guess. Kyler Murry, I'm tempted to go 80%. But that's maybe overweighting promise. So I guess 60%. Stafford? I'd consider Stafford ahead of Cousins, at least the 60% group. The guy has had a solid career despite playing for Detroit! Mayfield? He could improve markedly. So I dunno. Cousins is in a cluster that maybe tops out around #10. But 3-4 of the top QBs him have major question marks. I wouldn't be surprised if his 2021 performance were rated anywhere from #6 to #14. Depends on who gets hot, injuries, coaching, and teammates. I like your take on the take. Ryan - Carr - Stafford - Cousins is a nice grouping outside of the top 10.

Guest -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 9:35:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: DavidAOlson quote: ORIGINAL: David F. Cousins is in the 11-15 range in terms of QBs. QBs I 100% put ahead of him: Rodgers Brady Watson Mahomes Dak Josh Allen Russel Wilson Rodgers is currently on strike. Brady, for a single season. Watson, if not for the massive scandal. Mahomes, duh. Dak, 80%. Jerry Jones of undervalues him for.. reasons. Plus let's see how he comes back from his injury. Allen, I'd like to see another solid season before I'd place him firmly in this group, 80%. Russel Wilson, for sure. quote: QBs I 80% sure put ahead of him: Tannehill Lamar Jackson Justin Herbert Rapeyburger Tannehill, I dunno. Flip. I'd consider Jackson for the 100% group, but maybe chicken out and leave him here with Dak and Allen. Herbert? On performance, no. On promise, maybe. He's not in the solid veteran group yet. Rapeyburger, I don't trust him this much. Seems like he's teetering on the career-ending cliff. Flip at best. quote: QBs I 60% sure put ahead of him: Derek Carr Matt Ryan Kyler Murray Drew Brees would have been in the 100% category but not in 2020. Well, since Brees retired, it's hard to rank him higher than anyone. Matt Ryan makes me shrug like Tannehill. Derek Carr, push. I'd reluctantly include him in the solid veteran group with Tannehill, Ryan, and Cousins, I guess. Kyler Murry, I'm tempted to go 80%. But that's maybe overweighting promise. So I guess 60%. Stafford? I'd consider Stafford ahead of Cousins, at least the 60% group. The guy has had a solid career despite playing for Detroit! Mayfield? He could improve markedly. So I dunno. Cousins is in a cluster that maybe tops out around #10. But 3-4 of the top QBs him have major question marks. I wouldn't be surprised if his 2021 performance were rated anywhere from #6 to #14. Depends on who gets hot, injuries, coaching, and teammates. I like your take on the take. Ryan - Carr - Stafford - Cousins is a nice grouping outside of the top 10. This should be a perfect post to end the back and forth.. Seems about right until one of them either steps forward or backward.

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 9:52:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: Dana Turner FWIW, Here's my take on the Cousins discussion. I believe there is enough evidence to slot him in the right category. He has a solid arm, is an accurate passer in all three of the phases that get graded. He is solid in play action and has proven he can throw accurately on the move. He is a better than average QB at reading coverage's and is intelligent enough to have a full understanding of the playbook and game plans. What he is not: He does not have the movement skills that are in vogue in today's NFL, his ability to scramble is poor, it appears he does not "sense" the rush around him very well. I believe it is a positive that he's willing to stand in the pocket in the face of the rush to deliver a throw, but it is also not too smart and his penchant to hold the ball ends up costing more than it's worth. I believe that the good/great QB's all must do a tremendous amount of self scouting to understand what the league (read, defensive coordinators) believes are his tells/tendencies, I'm not sure he's good at that. It appears he makes the same mistakes when bated, I'd like to see more growth in this department at this stage of his career. I also believe in a room full of alpha males, you can't be the biggest nerd in the room and expect the guys to truly follow you. I believe he is a good enough QB to lead a good team to a title. As long as you understand that he won't carry the team and drag them across the finish line. His good traits out-weigh his bad traits, but his bad traits are not going away, he is who he is. We have never seen him with a solid functional offensive line, I believe the Vikings now have the ability to put a solid line out on the field and we will see a better cousins than we have seen so far. Will it be noticeably better, well, not if you are looking for flashy elevated play. It will probably just look way more efficient and that will make Zimmer a happy man. Cousins is a top ten QB in this league, with a few flaws. Lucky for us, some of those flaws get marginalized with a solid O-line. Our skill players on offense are as good as the other top offenses in the league, with a good offensive line I believe we can see better play from Cousins, really see the best he has and we can go from there. [:D][sm=ditto.gif][sm=dillydilly.jpg] FYI you are posting ditto emoji for a 'Cousins has strengths and weaknesses' post that absolutely annihilates your own narrow, one-sided view. Cousins has thousands of weaknesses. Just none significant enough for me to consider him any less than a top 10 QB. Once a person gets that through his head he realizes that we are fortunate to have him. Good. You are backing down from Top 5 QB who does everything right. Welcome back to reality. I think my statement was he does most QB things well or something like that. He may be top 5. I can say top 10 with no reservations whatsoever. Which of these quarterbacks is he DEFINITELY ahead of? As in, with NO reservations (as you say). Patrick Mahomes Tom Brady Russell Wilson Deshaun Watson Josh Allen Aaron Rodgers Lamar Jackson Ryan Tannehill Justin Herbert Kyler Murray Baker Mayfield Derek Carr Matthew Stafford Dak Prescott Joe Burrow Ben Roethlisberger Trevor Lawrence Trey Lance Justin Fields Zach Wilson Jimmy Garoppolo I see ZERO on this list that he is DEFINITELY ahead of. Maybe 6-10 that he could be equal to on a good day. I see only three guys in the league I would definitely put him ahead of ... Drew Lock, Matt Ryan and Jared Goff. The rest is very debatable. Jameis Winston is a push at this point.

Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 10:07:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: Pager quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: jbusse quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: Murph quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen One indisputable stat is Kurt Cousins is a perennial top 10 fumbling QB: https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/fumbles?season_id=18 His lack of pocket presence is what keeps him from being a top 10 QB Way too many unforced sacks and fumbles. Drive killers. Yep. Such drive killers that we finished 4th in the NFL in offense. Just imagine if the OL wasn't one of the worst in the league. Fourth in Yards. Big deal. 5th in rushing yards, 14th in receiving yards. Combined for 4th in total yds. You can have a boatload of yards but if that doesn't convert into scoring ... Percentage of Drives ending in a score: 39.8 (ranked 18) ... Points scored by team: 430 (ranked 11th ) There are so many variables that are more important than just plain ol' yards. As far as KC taking care of the football ... 2020 INTs: 13 – Tied for 3rd (2 more INTs and KC would have tied the league leader) 2020 Fumbles: 9 – Tied for 3rd (2 more fumbles and KC would have tied the league leader) As far as blaming everything on the OL ... its a feeble excuse. According to PFF, the worst performing OLs last year were the Chargers (rookie Hebert 10INTs/4Fs in 15 Games ), Giants (Daniel Jones 10INTs/3Fs in 14 games [back-up Colt Mcoy had 1 INT]), Bengals (rookie Burrow had 5INTs in 10 games (backup Allen 4 INTS in 5 games) ... Not only does KC NOT take care of the ball, he's a consistent TO machine over the course of his career. You've blown his point of KC taking "very good care of the ball" clear out of the water. Game-set-match. Checkmate if you will. Not to mention pointing out we were 14th in receiving yards to checkmate the desperate "we were 4th in yards" proclamation. But you shouldn't ignore that rushing yards and receiving yards are inversely related on average. The rushing game wouldn't be as productive if the passing game didn't pose a threat and vice versa. Difficult to disentangle, I would say. True, but in 2020 we were 8th in the league in rushing attempts and only 27th in passing attempts. Iin 2019 we were 4th in rushing attempts and 30th in passing attempts. This diminishes any inverse relationship or average spread. Because of that imbalance, KC benefits significantly with play action. what defenses are expecting as far as tendencies, etc. And perhaps Cook does better than it appears because clearly the league knows we are going to run a lot. All in all just generalized conclusions and there is no direct correlation. Sorry imo that is a flawed argument. We have tendencies that make it a disadvantage and wipe out (plus more) any advantage on PA. We run more than any other team on 2nd and long. We run more than any other team on second and short. We run more than any team on third and short. Our playcalling was especially vanilla in 2020 and it made easier to defend. Throw in that IOL and it was a disaster. I was so wrong about Kubiak taking over for Stef. So we were 27th in passing attempts, but 14th in passing yards. Tom used this as an argument against Cousins?????????????????? Show me where I used 14th in yards 'against Cousins'. I simply broke down for you how useless yards are as the sole measurement for offensive success. Somebody needs to remove your blindfold, you have no chance of hitting the statistical piñata.

Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 10:16:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kurt bilben quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: DavidAOlson quote: ORIGINAL: David F. Cousins is in the 11-15 range in terms of QBs. QBs I 100% put ahead of him: Rodgers Brady Watson Mahomes Dak Josh Allen Russel Wilson Rodgers is currently on strike. Brady, for a single season. Watson, if not for the massive scandal. Mahomes, duh. Dak, 80%. Jerry Jones of undervalues him for.. reasons. Plus let's see how he comes back from his injury. Allen, I'd like to see another solid season before I'd place him firmly in this group, 80%. Russel Wilson, for sure. quote: QBs I 80% sure put ahead of him: Tannehill Lamar Jackson Justin Herbert Rapeyburger Tannehill, I dunno. Flip. I'd consider Jackson for the 100% group, but maybe chicken out and leave him here with Dak and Allen. Herbert? On performance, no. On promise, maybe. He's not in the solid veteran group yet. Rapeyburger, I don't trust him this much. Seems like he's teetering on the career-ending cliff. Flip at best. quote: QBs I 60% sure put ahead of him: Derek Carr Matt Ryan Kyler Murray Drew Brees would have been in the 100% category but not in 2020. Well, since Brees retired, it's hard to rank him higher than anyone. Matt Ryan makes me shrug like Tannehill. Derek Carr, push. I'd reluctantly include him in the solid veteran group with Tannehill, Ryan, and Cousins, I guess. Kyler Murry, I'm tempted to go 80%. But that's maybe overweighting promise. So I guess 60%. Stafford? I'd consider Stafford ahead of Cousins, at least the 60% group. The guy has had a solid career despite playing for Detroit! Mayfield? He could improve markedly. So I dunno. Cousins is in a cluster that maybe tops out around #10. But 3-4 of the top QBs him have major question marks. I wouldn't be surprised if his 2021 performance were rated anywhere from #6 to #14. Depends on who gets hot, injuries, coaching, and teammates. I like your take on the take. Ryan - Carr - Stafford - Cousins is a nice grouping outside of the top 10. This should be a perfect post to end the back and forth.. Seems about right until one of them either steps forward or backward. I think you can catch lightning in a bottle with Cousins and make a run to the SB. He is a 10-14 guy who can get hot and look like a Top 8 guy. The skill guys we have on offense are SB worthy. If Klint and the OLine pan out, we are an offense to be reckoned with. I'm really hoping we spend the 15M on a pass rusher and CB depth. Defense could go from Bottom 5 to Top 10 if we stay healthy.

Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 10:23:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen quote: ORIGINAL: DavidAOlson quote: ORIGINAL: David F. Cousins is in the 11-15 range in terms of QBs. QBs I 100% put ahead of him: Rodgers Brady Watson Mahomes Dak Josh Allen Russel Wilson Rodgers is currently on strike. Brady, for a single season. Watson, if not for the massive scandal. Mahomes, duh. Dak, 80%. Jerry Jones of undervalues him for.. reasons. Plus let's see how he comes back from his injury. Allen, I'd like to see another solid season before I'd place him firmly in this group, 80%. Russel Wilson, for sure. quote: QBs I 80% sure put ahead of him: Tannehill Lamar Jackson Justin Herbert Rapeyburger Tannehill, I dunno. Flip. I'd consider Jackson for the 100% group, but maybe chicken out and leave him here with Dak and Allen. Herbert? On performance, no. On promise, maybe. He's not in the solid veteran group yet. Rapeyburger, I don't trust him this much. Seems like he's teetering on the career-ending cliff. Flip at best. quote: QBs I 60% sure put ahead of him: Derek Carr Matt Ryan Kyler Murray Drew Brees would have been in the 100% category but not in 2020. Well, since Brees retired, it's hard to rank him higher than anyone. Matt Ryan makes me shrug like Tannehill. Derek Carr, push. I'd reluctantly include him in the solid veteran group with Tannehill, Ryan, and Cousins, I guess. Kyler Murry, I'm tempted to go 80%. But that's maybe overweighting promise. So I guess 60%. Stafford? I'd consider Stafford ahead of Cousins, at least the 60% group. The guy has had a solid career despite playing for Detroit! Mayfield? He could improve markedly. So I dunno. Cousins is in a cluster that maybe tops out around #10. But 3-4 of the top QBs him have major question marks. I wouldn't be surprised if his 2021 performance were rated anywhere from #6 to #14. Depends on who gets hot, injuries, coaching, and teammates. I like your take on the take. Ryan - Carr - Stafford - Cousins is a nice grouping outside of the top 10. I agree with this as well. KC sits just outside the top 10 on a consistent basis – which is still pretty good most of the time. As Bilben says, he is quite capable of playing 'forward' (if I read him right) into the top 10 and IMO down into the low teens (I'm not including the perennial really bad game or two). It has to be a sliding scale. The failure of the IOL, the constant shifting of the OCs, Zimmer's bland influence on the scheme (and therefore playcalling) and game mgmt ... there are plenty of reasons to think that a sudden improvement in those areas could help KC erupt into more than just stat hoarder.

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 10:36:07 AM)
How does a guy with the #30 Quarterback Rating in the final two minutes of halves suddenly become a top-5 or top-10 quarterback? You guys are living in an amnesia-filled, spring/summer fog. Kirk Cousins is a 15-20 quarterback in the league. That's what he is. Sometimes he looks like a top-10 guy. Sometimes he looks like a 25-32 guy.

Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 10:50:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H How does a guy with the #30 Quarterback Rating in the final two minutes of halves suddenly become a top-5 or top-10 quarterback? You guys are living in an amnesia-filled, spring/summer fog. Kirk Cousins is a 15-20 quarterback in the league. That's what he is. Sometimes he looks like a top-10 guy. Sometimes he looks like a 25-32 guy. What year did you get that stat from? I just read a Dec. 3rd, 2020 article from PFF saying Cousins has one of the top 4th quarter ratings. I'm not putting a lot of stock in it because we had 3-4 games with some garbage time to it. And I don't believe Cousins is better in 4th quarters than Mahomes(who he is ahead of). End of 1st halves really mean nothing to me when you have Zimmer as a HC. We sit on it many more times than we get aggressive. Especially on the Road or if we are ahead. Or if we are getting the 2nd half KO. Or if we are deep in our own territory.

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 12:06:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H How does a guy with the #30 Quarterback Rating in the final two minutes of halves suddenly become a top-5 or top-10 quarterback? You guys are living in an amnesia-filled, spring/summer fog. Kirk Cousins is a 15-20 quarterback in the league. That's what he is. Sometimes he looks like a top-10 guy. Sometimes he looks like a 25-32 guy. What year did you get that stat from? I just read a Dec. 3rd, 2020 article from PFF saying Cousins has one of the top 4th quarter ratings. I'm not putting a lot of stock in it because we had 3-4 games with some garbage time to it. And I don't believe Cousins is better in 4th quarters than Mahomes(who he is ahead of). End of 1st halves really mean nothing to me when you have Zimmer as a HC. We sit on it many more times than we get aggressive. Especially on the Road or if we are ahead. Or if we are getting the 2nd half KO. Or if we are deep in our own territory. https://www.footballdb.com/statistics/nfl/player-splits/passing/last-two-minutes-half/2020 Rating in the final two minutes of halves was 63.7. 54-of-96 (56.2%) for 640 yards, five touchdowns, seven interceptions (only sacked twice). HE WAS AWFUL, PERIOD!

Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 2:28:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H How does a guy with the #30 Quarterback Rating in the final two minutes of halves suddenly become a top-5 or top-10 quarterback? You guys are living in an amnesia-filled, spring/summer fog. Kirk Cousins is a 15-20 quarterback in the league. That's what he is. Sometimes he looks like a top-10 guy. Sometimes he looks like a 25-32 guy. What year did you get that stat from? I just read a Dec. 3rd, 2020 article from PFF saying Cousins has one of the top 4th quarter ratings. I'm not putting a lot of stock in it because we had 3-4 games with some garbage time to it. And I don't believe Cousins is better in 4th quarters than Mahomes(who he is ahead of). End of 1st halves really mean nothing to me when you have Zimmer as a HC. We sit on it many more times than we get aggressive. Especially on the Road or if we are ahead. Or if we are getting the 2nd half KO. Or if we are deep in our own territory. https://www.footballdb.com/statistics/nfl/player-splits/passing/last-two-minutes-half/2020 Rating in the final two minutes of halves was 63.7. 54-of-96 (56.2%) for 640 yards, five touchdowns, seven interceptions (only sacked twice). HE WAS AWFUL, PERIOD! Brady was 43 of 76 for 56.6% also 5 TDs (with 0 INTs/0 Sacks) DETESTABLE!

TJSweens -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 2:38:12 PM)
[sm=popcorn.gif]

Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 2:52:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H How does a guy with the #30 Quarterback Rating in the final two minutes of halves suddenly become a top-5 or top-10 quarterback? You guys are living in an amnesia-filled, spring/summer fog. Kirk Cousins is a 15-20 quarterback in the league. That's what he is. Sometimes he looks like a top-10 guy. Sometimes he looks like a 25-32 guy. What year did you get that stat from? I just read a Dec. 3rd, 2020 article from PFF saying Cousins has one of the top 4th quarter ratings. I'm not putting a lot of stock in it because we had 3-4 games with some garbage time to it. And I don't believe Cousins is better in 4th quarters than Mahomes(who he is ahead of). End of 1st halves really mean nothing to me when you have Zimmer as a HC. We sit on it many more times than we get aggressive. Especially on the Road or if we are ahead. Or if we are getting the 2nd half KO. Or if we are deep in our own territory. https://www.footballdb.com/statistics/nfl/player-splits/passing/last-two-minutes-half/2020 Rating in the final two minutes of halves was 63.7. 54-of-96 (56.2%) for 640 yards, five touchdowns, seven interceptions (only sacked twice). HE WAS AWFUL, PERIOD! This flimsy 2:00 stat could be useful ... knowing come from behind / keep the lead / no score points (fewest points scored?), starting field position, hail mary attempts, and ... oh you know, all the other critical variables that matter more than 'minutes on the clock'. For all we know he is the best 2:03 end of half player that ever lived. On its own, its pretty empty. Other QBs in the over-80 pass attempt range inside of 2:00/ stacked by COMP%: ATT / COMP / % / TD / INTs / First Downs / Sacks Hebert 92 / 62 / 67.4% / 4 / 2 /33 / 6 Watson 100 / 67 / 67% / 5 / 1 / 41 / 5 Mahomes 84 / 55 / 65.5% / 5 / 1 / 34 / 3 Tannehill 84 / 54 / 64.3% / 4 / 0 / 29 / 3 Rivers 85 / 53 / 62.4% / 4 / 0 / 28 / 2 Ryan 114 / 66 / 57.9% / 3 4 / 41 / 8 Cousins 96 / 54 / 53.2% / 5 / 7 / 35 / 2 Lock 88 / 43 / 48.9% / 3 / 4 / 22 / 3 It doesn't surprise me that KC leads in INTs. That's super no bueno inside of 2:00. I am also not surprised he was tied for the TD lead. However, more important would be how many TDs he threw (tied for lead) or put the team in field goal range -vs- turning the ball over on downs / ran out the clock. It just isn't a useful stat in itself unless you are relying on it for another anti-Cousins campaign.

Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 3:04:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens [sm=popcorn.gif] You've been eating a lot of popcorn lately ... do you even realize how bad that is for your arteries?

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 3:48:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H How does a guy with the #30 Quarterback Rating in the final two minutes of halves suddenly become a top-5 or top-10 quarterback? You guys are living in an amnesia-filled, spring/summer fog. Kirk Cousins is a 15-20 quarterback in the league. That's what he is. Sometimes he looks like a top-10 guy. Sometimes he looks like a 25-32 guy. What year did you get that stat from? I just read a Dec. 3rd, 2020 article from PFF saying Cousins has one of the top 4th quarter ratings. I'm not putting a lot of stock in it because we had 3-4 games with some garbage time to it. And I don't believe Cousins is better in 4th quarters than Mahomes(who he is ahead of). End of 1st halves really mean nothing to me when you have Zimmer as a HC. We sit on it many more times than we get aggressive. Especially on the Road or if we are ahead. Or if we are getting the 2nd half KO. Or if we are deep in our own territory. https://www.footballdb.com/statistics/nfl/player-splits/passing/last-two-minutes-half/2020 Rating in the final two minutes of halves was 63.7. 54-of-96 (56.2%) for 640 yards, five touchdowns, seven interceptions (only sacked twice). HE WAS AWFUL, PERIOD! Brady was 43 of 76 for 56.6% also 5 TDs (with 0 INTs/0 Sacks) DETESTABLE! 0 interceptions for Brady. That's the stat you seem to be missing. Cousins had seven. Not even comparable numbers. The great ones flourish under pressure. The weak ones crack.

kgdabom -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 3:58:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H How does a guy with the #30 Quarterback Rating in the final two minutes of halves suddenly become a top-5 or top-10 quarterback? You guys are living in an amnesia-filled, spring/summer fog. Kirk Cousins is a 15-20 quarterback in the league. That's what he is. Sometimes he looks like a top-10 guy. Sometimes he looks like a 25-32 guy. What year did you get that stat from? I just read a Dec. 3rd, 2020 article from PFF saying Cousins has one of the top 4th quarter ratings. I'm not putting a lot of stock in it because we had 3-4 games with some garbage time to it. And I don't believe Cousins is better in 4th quarters than Mahomes(who he is ahead of). End of 1st halves really mean nothing to me when you have Zimmer as a HC. We sit on it many more times than we get aggressive. Especially on the Road or if we are ahead. Or if we are getting the 2nd half KO. Or if we are deep in our own territory. https://www.footballdb.com/statistics/nfl/player-splits/passing/last-two-minutes-half/2020 Rating in the final two minutes of halves was 63.7. 54-of-96 (56.2%) for 640 yards, five touchdowns, seven interceptions (only sacked twice). HE WAS AWFUL, PERIOD! This flimsy 2:00 stat could be useful ... knowing come from behind / keep the lead / no score points (fewest points scored?), starting field position, hail mary attempts, and ... oh you know, all the other critical variables that matter more than 'minutes on the clock'. For all we know he is the best 2:03 end of half player that ever lived. On its own, its pretty empty. Other QBs in the over-80 pass attempt range inside of 2:00/ stacked by COMP%: ATT / COMP / % / TD / INTs / First Downs / Sacks Hebert 92 / 62 / 67.4% / 4 / 2 /33 / 6 Watson 100 / 67 / 67% / 5 / 1 / 41 / 5 Mahomes 84 / 55 / 65.5% / 5 / 1 / 34 / 3 Tannehill 84 / 54 / 64.3% / 4 / 0 / 29 / 3 Rivers 85 / 53 / 62.4% / 4 / 0 / 28 / 2 Ryan 114 / 66 / 57.9% / 3 4 / 41 / 8 Cousins 96 / 54 / 53.2% / 5 / 7 / 35 / 2 Lock 88 / 43 / 48.9% / 3 / 4 / 22 / 3 It doesn't surprise me that KC leads in INTs. That's super no bueno inside of 2:00. I am also not surprised he was tied for the TD lead. However, more important would be how many TDs he threw (tied for lead) or put the team in field goal range -vs- turning the ball over on downs / ran out the clock. It just isn't a useful stat in itself unless you are relying on it for another anti-Cousins campaign. [sm=ditto.gif][sm=dillydilly.jpg][sm=govikes.gif]

bohumm -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 4:55:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H How does a guy with the #30 Quarterback Rating in the final two minutes of halves suddenly become a top-5 or top-10 quarterback? You guys are living in an amnesia-filled, spring/summer fog. Kirk Cousins is a 15-20 quarterback in the league. That's what he is. Sometimes he looks like a top-10 guy. Sometimes he looks like a 25-32 guy. Maybe Dad will let you drive on the driveway after Wopner. I hear (from you, ad nauseum) that you're an excellent driver....

Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (5/31/2021 7:41:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H How does a guy with the #30 Quarterback Rating in the final two minutes of halves suddenly become a top-5 or top-10 quarterback? You guys are living in an amnesia-filled, spring/summer fog. Kirk Cousins is a 15-20 quarterback in the league. That's what he is. Sometimes he looks like a top-10 guy. Sometimes he looks like a 25-32 guy. What year did you get that stat from? I just read a Dec. 3rd, 2020 article from PFF saying Cousins has one of the top 4th quarter ratings. I'm not putting a lot of stock in it because we had 3-4 games with some garbage time to it. And I don't believe Cousins is better in 4th quarters than Mahomes(who he is ahead of). End of 1st halves really mean nothing to me when you have Zimmer as a HC. We sit on it many more times than we get aggressive. Especially on the Road or if we are ahead. Or if we are getting the 2nd half KO. Or if we are deep in our own territory. https://www.footballdb.com/statistics/nfl/player-splits/passing/last-two-minutes-half/2020 Rating in the final two minutes of halves was 63.7. 54-of-96 (56.2%) for 640 yards, five touchdowns, seven interceptions (only sacked twice). HE WAS AWFUL, PERIOD! Brady was 43 of 76 for 56.6% also 5 TDs (with 0 INTs/0 Sacks) DETESTABLE! 0 interceptions for Brady. That's the stat you seem to be missing. Cousins had seven. Not even comparable numbers. The great ones flourish under pressure. The weak ones crack. Since I mentioned it in the post above and specifically spoke to it in my post after ... I obviously didn’t miss it. The numbers are very comparable, except for the INTS ... which is unfortunately one of the side effects of having better-than-avg Cousins. What you are trying to say is that none of the numbers are comparable BECAUSE OF the INTs. That’s only because you are trying to shape and mold stats as you go along. You were the one posting the debunked numbers to begin with. I hobbled your original premise, I put a post between its ankles and I used a 5lb. heavy hammer to snap the foot right at the 2:00 mark. So I understand the mad scramble to shift focus.

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