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thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/4/2023 11:59:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Funkytown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

If Cousins continues to demand guaranteed contracts it will be one year deals. No team will be giving a guy his age a 3-4 year fully guaranteed contract.


I doubt Cousins would demand a guaranteed contract at this point in his career. But more than a one-year commitment? I believe he's earned that (consistency, leadership, ability to stay healthy, etc.), and a few teams would be happy to have him.

As far as Minnesota, here is this:

The future of the Vikings: Latest on Danielle Hunter, Justin Jefferson and Kirk Cousins by Alec Lewis

quote:

Lewis: I will say, on a serious note, it’s only a matter of time. Every member of the Vikings organization has talked openly about wanting to make this happen. Furthermore, Jefferson has accomplished more statistically through three seasons than any wide receiver in the history of football. So for as rare as it may be for wide receivers to receive extensions immediately following their third year, he is deserving of one.

Krawczynski: I will say this about the Vikings under the Wilf regime: When they want to keep a player, they keep a player. And there is no doubt they want to keep Jefferson, so I have no reason to doubt that the two sides will figure something out eventually. I really do believe that Jefferson has a chance to surpass some of the biggest stars this team has ever had. He has a mass appeal that may be just behind Patrick Mahomes and Tom Brady and the few NFL players who are truly recognizable to the casual fan. Fun to watch.

Lewis: I think back to something Adofo-Mensah said at the combine. He essentially admitted then that Jefferson’s status warrants the type of communication often afforded to the starting quarterback. Adofo-Mensah said it was his responsibility to keep Jefferson abreast of the team’s long-term plans.

That’s where I find myself returning to the QB position. Maybe one of the most under-the-radar storylines in the NFL this offseason is the fact that Kirk Cousins is destined to become a free agent after this season. That has league-wide ramifications, but it also raises all sorts of questions locally.

I’ll toss a couple out here. If Cousins plays well this season, how difficult will it be to retain him on the open market? If the Vikings move on from Cousins, how capable is Jaren Hall going to be as a potential successor? If not him, then who? Will the team try to move up in the draft? Will they be in a position to make that happen?

Jon, how do you feel about (waves arms wildly) all of this?

Krawczynski: I think Kirk Cousins really wants to finish his career here. I think he likes the organization, loves throwing to Jefferson and T.J. Hockenson and, as weird as it sounds for a QB who has been so polarizing in these parts, he just seems to feel comfortable here.

If you put truth serum in his protein shake, I think he would say he is disappointed the Vikings haven’t been more aggressive in signing him to an extension. He has played the contract game as well as any NFL player has ever played it, but I think if he could sign a long-term extension here that he liked, he would do it in a minute.

For the Vikings, it seems like they’re playing this a bit like the Giants did with Daniel Jones. Let him go into the final year of his deal. If he plays really well, you reward him with a huge contract. Could you lose him to another team? Yes. But would you? I think if he gets what he wants, Minnesota is his preferred destination.

If he doesn’t, you can turn to the future and every Vikings fan will serenade you for it. I would be surprised — but not shocked — if Jaren Hall is that future. You write about him like I write about Ricky Rubio (wait, no one writes about anything like I write about Ricky), and I look forward to seeing him in the preseason. The talent intrigues me, but there’s a reason he was a fifth-round pick.

The guess here is if they bottom out because of injuries or stagnation this fall, they will be picking a lot higher in the draft and maybe have a shot at a QB of their own.

Lewis: You laid it out well. Cousins does love it here. Hall will be fun to follow. And, a major step back could lead to a draft pick that suffices for a high-end quarterback.

I will say, though: I am a bit hung up on the Daniel Jones reference. Not that I think it’s wrong. I just think the metrics shine a more positive light on Cousins. In the last five years, his overall efficiency score, via RDSDM, ranks 10th among 22 qualified quarterbacks, which is better than Matthew Stafford, Justin Herbert, Kyler Murray and Derek Carr over that span. Statistically, Cousins and Jones do not even compare.

Age, of course, is a variable in the long-term calculus. The Vikings will also factor in what another hefty quarterback contract would prohibit them from doing with their overall roster. So … this next calendar year feels monumental in terms of the long-term outlook of the team.


Link:

https://theathletic.com/4648706/2023/06/29/vikings-danielle-hunter-justin-jefferson-kirk-cousins/



i'd appreciate a few more td's from jeff...i'd rather have devante adams' 2022 season than jeff's....

I wouldn't.



you're not a touchdown guy, uh?....

The raiders didn't have anyone else to throw to




Ricky J -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/4/2023 2:55:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Funkytown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

If Cousins continues to demand guaranteed contracts it will be one year deals. No team will be giving a guy his age a 3-4 year fully guaranteed contract.


I doubt Cousins would demand a guaranteed contract at this point in his career. But more than a one-year commitment? I believe he's earned that (consistency, leadership, ability to stay healthy, etc.), and a few teams would be happy to have him.

As far as Minnesota, here is this:

The future of the Vikings: Latest on Danielle Hunter, Justin Jefferson and Kirk Cousins by Alec Lewis

quote:

Lewis: I will say, on a serious note, it’s only a matter of time. Every member of the Vikings organization has talked openly about wanting to make this happen. Furthermore, Jefferson has accomplished more statistically through three seasons than any wide receiver in the history of football. So for as rare as it may be for wide receivers to receive extensions immediately following their third year, he is deserving of one.

Krawczynski: I will say this about the Vikings under the Wilf regime: When they want to keep a player, they keep a player. And there is no doubt they want to keep Jefferson, so I have no reason to doubt that the two sides will figure something out eventually. I really do believe that Jefferson has a chance to surpass some of the biggest stars this team has ever had. He has a mass appeal that may be just behind Patrick Mahomes and Tom Brady and the few NFL players who are truly recognizable to the casual fan. Fun to watch.

Lewis: I think back to something Adofo-Mensah said at the combine. He essentially admitted then that Jefferson’s status warrants the type of communication often afforded to the starting quarterback. Adofo-Mensah said it was his responsibility to keep Jefferson abreast of the team’s long-term plans.

That’s where I find myself returning to the QB position. Maybe one of the most under-the-radar storylines in the NFL this offseason is the fact that Kirk Cousins is destined to become a free agent after this season. That has league-wide ramifications, but it also raises all sorts of questions locally.

I’ll toss a couple out here. If Cousins plays well this season, how difficult will it be to retain him on the open market? If the Vikings move on from Cousins, how capable is Jaren Hall going to be as a potential successor? If not him, then who? Will the team try to move up in the draft? Will they be in a position to make that happen?

Jon, how do you feel about (waves arms wildly) all of this?

Krawczynski: I think Kirk Cousins really wants to finish his career here. I think he likes the organization, loves throwing to Jefferson and T.J. Hockenson and, as weird as it sounds for a QB who has been so polarizing in these parts, he just seems to feel comfortable here.

If you put truth serum in his protein shake, I think he would say he is disappointed the Vikings haven’t been more aggressive in signing him to an extension. He has played the contract game as well as any NFL player has ever played it, but I think if he could sign a long-term extension here that he liked, he would do it in a minute.

For the Vikings, it seems like they’re playing this a bit like the Giants did with Daniel Jones. Let him go into the final year of his deal. If he plays really well, you reward him with a huge contract. Could you lose him to another team? Yes. But would you? I think if he gets what he wants, Minnesota is his preferred destination.

If he doesn’t, you can turn to the future and every Vikings fan will serenade you for it. I would be surprised — but not shocked — if Jaren Hall is that future. You write about him like I write about Ricky Rubio (wait, no one writes about anything like I write about Ricky), and I look forward to seeing him in the preseason. The talent intrigues me, but there’s a reason he was a fifth-round pick.

The guess here is if they bottom out because of injuries or stagnation this fall, they will be picking a lot higher in the draft and maybe have a shot at a QB of their own.

Lewis: You laid it out well. Cousins does love it here. Hall will be fun to follow. And, a major step back could lead to a draft pick that suffices for a high-end quarterback.

I will say, though: I am a bit hung up on the Daniel Jones reference. Not that I think it’s wrong. I just think the metrics shine a more positive light on Cousins. In the last five years, his overall efficiency score, via RDSDM, ranks 10th among 22 qualified quarterbacks, which is better than Matthew Stafford, Justin Herbert, Kyler Murray and Derek Carr over that span. Statistically, Cousins and Jones do not even compare.

Age, of course, is a variable in the long-term calculus. The Vikings will also factor in what another hefty quarterback contract would prohibit them from doing with their overall roster. So … this next calendar year feels monumental in terms of the long-term outlook of the team.


Link:

https://theathletic.com/4648706/2023/06/29/vikings-danielle-hunter-justin-jefferson-kirk-cousins/



i'd appreciate a few more td's from jeff...i'd rather have devante adams' 2022 season than jeff's....

I wouldn't.



you're not a touchdown guy, uh?....

The raiders didn't have anyone else to throw to

I don't know what the numbers will say but it seems like he did quite a few things to get the ball close and someone else got to finish off the drive with a td pass from Kirk




Todd M -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/4/2023 4:24:43 PM)

I bet in 3 years he's been down at <2 yard line over 10 times.




ratoppenheimer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/5/2023 5:08:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

I bet in 3 years he's been down at <2 yard line over 10 times.


Yes, a safer pass than inside the end zone.




TJSweens -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/5/2023 6:31:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

I bet in 3 years he's been down at <2 yard line over 10 times.


Yes, a safer pass than inside the end zone.

And that's the bottom line. You have to actually be targeted in the end zone to catch a pass there.




David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/5/2023 10:14:17 AM)

In 2022, no WR was targeted more times in the red zone than Jefferson. https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/red-zone-stats/wr.php?year=2022&range=full&scoring=HALF




David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/5/2023 10:17:03 AM)

In 2020, Davonte Adams and Adam Thielen were completely unstoppable in the redzone. https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/red-zone-stats/wr.php?scoring=HALF&range=full&year=2020




TJSweens -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/5/2023 10:21:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

In 2022, no WR was targeted more times in the red zone than Jefferson. https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/red-zone-stats/wr.php?year=2022&range=full&scoring=HALF

How many were catchable?




Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/5/2023 11:58:36 AM)

None of that ever stopped Randy Moss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MceSzVPi_4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpkLx-tmOR0




David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/5/2023 2:43:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

In 2022, no WR was targeted more times in the red zone than Jefferson. https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/red-zone-stats/wr.php?year=2022&range=full&scoring=HALF

How many were catchable?


Hell if I know.




ratoppenheimer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/5/2023 5:58:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

None of that ever stopped Randy Moss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MceSzVPi_4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpkLx-tmOR0


their first 3 seasons:

justin jefferson...25 tds
randy moss...43 tds

at his present rate, it'll take justin 2.15 more seasons to reach moss's total after 3 seasons....


i really love jefferson, but the local media has convinced him that he'll be underpaid at $30+mm/yr - and that a new contract should happen after his 3rd year in the nfl....




Richard Neussendorfer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/5/2023 11:47:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

None of that ever stopped Randy Moss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MceSzVPi_4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpkLx-tmOR0


their first 3 seasons:

justin jefferson...25 tds
randy moss...43 tds

at his present rate, it'll take justin 2.15 more seasons to reach moss's total after 3 seasons....


i really love jefferson, but the local media has convinced him that he'll be underpaid at $30+mm/yr - and that a new contract should happen after his 3rd year in the nfl....

He also didn't play that great against the biggest baddest teams. Hopefully that changes this year.




thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/6/2023 1:04:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

None of that ever stopped Randy Moss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MceSzVPi_4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpkLx-tmOR0


their first 3 seasons:

justin jefferson...25 tds
randy moss...43 tds

at his present rate, it'll take justin 2.15 more seasons to reach moss's total after 3 seasons....


i really love jefferson, but the local media has convinced him that he'll be underpaid at $30+mm/yr - and that a new contract should happen after his 3rd year in the nfl....

Is there a better wide receiver in the league?




ratoppenheimer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/6/2023 5:47:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

None of that ever stopped Randy Moss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MceSzVPi_4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpkLx-tmOR0


their first 3 seasons:

justin jefferson...25 tds
randy moss...43 tds

at his present rate, it'll take justin 2.15 more seasons to reach moss's total after 3 seasons....


i really love jefferson, but the local media has convinced him that he'll be underpaid at $30+mm/yr - and that a new contract should happen after his 3rd year in the nfl....

Is there a better wide receiver in the league?


Former NFL receiver Greg Jennings suggested via The 33rd Team that the Minnesota Vikings should do all they can ‘to keep Jefferson, even offer him part ownership of the team.’

Is there a better wide receiver in the league? I don’t know.

Could Justin Jefferson Tear up a knee so badly that it knocks him down to a second tier or third tier, wide receiver? Yes, of course that’s possible.

I used to think that giving a young player a new deal after three years meant the team gets a more friendly deal. Like we did with Hunter. But now, if the team gets a friendly deal, the player rebels, after a few season, and much more money. he doesn’t appreciate the fact that he got all those tens of millions of dollars a year or two early.

I would play hardball with Jefferson. If he wants to deal now, he gives the team a break. And no, no trade clause.




David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/6/2023 10:10:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

None of that ever stopped Randy Moss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MceSzVPi_4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpkLx-tmOR0


their first 3 seasons:

justin jefferson...25 tds
randy moss...43 tds

at his present rate, it'll take justin 2.15 more seasons to reach moss's total after 3 seasons....


i really love jefferson, but the local media has convinced him that he'll be underpaid at $30+mm/yr - and that a new contract should happen after his 3rd year in the nfl....

Is there a better wide receiver in the league?


Former NFL receiver Greg Jennings suggested via The 33rd Team that the Minnesota Vikings should do all they can ‘to keep Jefferson, even offer him part ownership of the team.’

Is there a better wide receiver in the league? I don’t know.

Could Justin Jefferson Tear up a knee so badly that it knocks him down to a second tier or third tier, wide receiver? Yes, of course that’s possible.

I used to think that giving a young player a new deal after three years meant the team gets a more friendly deal. Like we did with Hunter. But now, if the team gets a friendly deal, the player rebels, after a few season, and much more money. he doesn’t appreciate the fact that he got all those tens of millions of dollars a year or two early.

I would play hardball with Jefferson. If he wants to deal now, he gives the team a break. And no, no trade clause.


Setting up a situation that will likely lead to ill will between the player and team a few seasons down the road is poor management. Appreciate that he got all those tens of millions of dollars? You mean the tens of millions of dollars he was worth. You make it sound like the team is doing some kind of favor.




Ricky J -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/6/2023 12:10:58 PM)

Rock and a hard spot




Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/6/2023 12:24:31 PM)

Without a QB who is a winner and a good defense it's expensive window dressing.




David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/6/2023 12:53:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Without a QB who is a winner and a good defense it's expensive window dressing.


Positively must have the QB. After that a great WR will be a big help but not a necessity. The Chiefs won a Super Bowl with and without Tyreek Hill.




David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/6/2023 1:10:06 PM)

Jefferson's contract status is more complex than it appears on the surface. He's clearly one of the best, and maybe the very best WR in the NFL right now. He deserves a huge contract and will be a huge asset to the team that has him. Do the Vikings know how to build a championship roster around him or will they be content to watch 60,000+ fans fill up the stadium week after week feeling great about some awesome WR stats and gloss over that we don't go anywhere in the playoffs? We saw it happen with Adrian Peterson. Fans got boners for the rushing record and happily threw their money at the Wilfs and we got a shiny new stadium. I'm undecided to say the least. I want Jefferson, but only if Jefferson isn't considered the 'mission accomplished' moment for the franchise right now. If we have no plans of taking a shot on finding a franchise QB in the draft then I'd rather trade Jefferson to get the ammo needed to draft the QB we feel we can take a shot on. Best case scenario would be signing Jefferson and then finding a way to move up in the draft for a QB. Second best scenario is trading Jefferson and then drafting QB. Worst scenario is signing Jefferson and then extending Kirk for three seasons.




ratoppenheimer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/6/2023 1:28:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

None of that ever stopped Randy Moss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MceSzVPi_4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpkLx-tmOR0


their first 3 seasons:

justin jefferson...25 tds
randy moss...43 tds

at his present rate, it'll take justin 2.15 more seasons to reach moss's total after 3 seasons....


i really love jefferson, but the local media has convinced him that he'll be underpaid at $30+mm/yr - and that a new contract should happen after his 3rd year in the nfl....

Is there a better wide receiver in the league?


Former NFL receiver Greg Jennings suggested via The 33rd Team that the Minnesota Vikings should do all they can ‘to keep Jefferson, even offer him part ownership of the team.’

Is there a better wide receiver in the league? I don’t know.

Could Justin Jefferson Tear up a knee so badly that it knocks him down to a second tier or third tier, wide receiver? Yes, of course that’s possible.

I used to think that giving a young player a new deal after three years meant the team gets a more friendly deal. Like we did with Hunter. But now, if the team gets a friendly deal, the player rebels, after a few season, and much more money. he doesn’t appreciate the fact that he got all those tens of millions of dollars a year or two early.

I would play hardball with Jefferson. If he wants to deal now, he gives the team a break. And no, no trade clause.


Setting up a situation that will likely lead to ill will between the player and team a few seasons down the road is poor management. Appreciate that he got all those tens of millions of dollars? You mean the tens of millions of dollars he was worth. You make it sound like the team is doing some kind of favor.



i'm referring to the tens of millions we give in a deal two years before we have to...we could keep him for another year or so, and if we don't have a QB we love, trade jeff - let his next team handout the signing bonus that we'd have to pick up as dead money....




joejitsu -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/6/2023 1:36:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

None of that ever stopped Randy Moss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MceSzVPi_4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpkLx-tmOR0


their first 3 seasons:

justin jefferson...25 tds
randy moss...43 tds

at his present rate, it'll take justin 2.15 more seasons to reach moss's total after 3 seasons....


i really love jefferson, but the local media has convinced him that he'll be underpaid at $30+mm/yr - and that a new contract should happen after his 3rd year in the nfl....

Is there a better wide receiver in the league?


Former NFL receiver Greg Jennings suggested via The 33rd Team that the Minnesota Vikings should do all they can ‘to keep Jefferson, even offer him part ownership of the team.’

Is there a better wide receiver in the league? I don’t know.

Could Justin Jefferson Tear up a knee so badly that it knocks him down to a second tier or third tier, wide receiver? Yes, of course that’s possible.

I used to think that giving a young player a new deal after three years meant the team gets a more friendly deal. Like we did with Hunter. But now, if the team gets a friendly deal, the player rebels, after a few season, and much more money. he doesn’t appreciate the fact that he got all those tens of millions of dollars a year or two early.

I would play hardball with Jefferson. If he wants to deal now, he gives the team a break. And no, no trade clause.


Setting up a situation that will likely lead to ill will between the player and team a few seasons down the road is poor management. Appreciate that he got all those tens of millions of dollars? You mean the tens of millions of dollars he was worth. You make it sound like the team is doing some kind of favor.



i'm referring to the tens of millions we give in a deal two years before we have to...we could keep him for another year or so, and if we don't have a QB we love, trade jeff - let his next team handout the signing bonus that we'd have to pick up as dead money....


His trade value is off the charts. I love him as a player, but if you can rebuild a defense by trading him, you need to think about it.




Bill Jandro -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/6/2023 9:23:00 PM)

The one thing lacking in Jeffersons resume thus far is TD catches. Moss 43 JJ 25 after 3 years




ratoppenheimer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/7/2023 3:37:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

The one thing lacking in Jeffersons resume thus far is TD catches. Moss 43 JJ 25 after 3 years


.
jefferson is a great receiver, moss was a game-changer....




thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/7/2023 9:29:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

The one thing lacking in Jeffersons resume thus far is TD catches. Moss 43 JJ 25 after 3 years

.
jefferson is a great receiver, moss was a game-changer....

A field tilter.




Ricky J -> RE: General Vikes Talk (7/7/2023 10:17:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

The one thing lacking in Jeffersons resume thus far is TD catches. Moss 43 JJ 25 after 3 years


.
jefferson is a great receiver, moss was a game-changer....


If this was a QB discussion the invariable question would be, "How many SBs has he won? "




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